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EDIT: derpa herp starts on 20th so all good
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[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia
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gonzaw
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+ Show Spoiler + If so: /confirm | ||
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gonzaw
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Do I...like...tell him to do my laundry and that kind of stuff? | ||
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gonzaw
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I think marv is being very suspicious, here: On January 23rd 2014 18:24 marvellosity wrote: Just follow along and contribute to town. I won't bite you that way, dear. I seem to have found a scum among us, and so very early in the game. There is no reason to Random Lynch on D1, and Hapahauli is a good enough player to know that. Specially with a vote on sandro, which can be a very valuable player if he is indeed town. This is anti-town play, town Hapahauli wouldn't play like this. Kill it with fire ##Vote: Hapahauli Everybody knows Hapa was just trolling, like all trolling town do on early D1. You know, have some banter, some chats, random vote, etc, the usual stuff. It happens every game, we all know townies who do that to try and pass the time and have some fun early D1, or maybe to even get the ball rolling and get people to post and react. Marv should know this. Like...it's part of the TL Mafia "meta": derpy townies on D1. Yet marv instantly jumps on Hapahauli the first instance he can, just because of that? And he seems so sure about it? Really? I don't buy it On January 23rd 2014 22:22 marvellosity wrote: Oh look, found another scum. No, town players shouldn't play "non-sequiturs" on D1. The fact that you are justifying Hapa's behaviour makes you so obvious, I doubt I need to say anything more to get your scummy ass lynched this cycle Foolishness. You cast suspicion on me, but you don't have the balls to even vote for me? Wishy washy as fuck. Classic scum Foolishness. Kill both with fire, but scum Foolishness burns better, so let's start with him first  ##Unvote: Hapahauli ##Vote: Foolishness This is just hilarious. Trust me, this is not "Classic scum Foolishness". If Foo' was scum, I'd know by now. Or at least, I wouldn't have such a strong townread on him. He's been posting very actively, being part of discussions, and in general trying to enforce some order in this D1. Scum Foo doesn't do that. Scum Foo lurks a little bit, posts some (kind of bad) suspicions on people and that's it. Even more, marv doesn't even attempt to defend himself against Foo's accusations (which I agree with, see previous quote), he just OMGUSes him and tries to deflect attention. Yeah...this is no town marv. I think the bonfire does not want green blood today marvy-marv. Would you like to get closer to it a little bit? Why? Oh, nothing, I think I saw a coin in there....yes....go closer....yes more more. ##Vote: marvellosity Oh, btw, yeah any Self-Aware Miller should obviously claim. Don't waste pages and pages discussing that shit, everybody knows that by now. Also, yeah blabla "lurkers are bad", "we should policy lynch lurkers and inactives" bla bla, we all heard it before so let's cut the crap and lynch marv. | ||
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gonzaw
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^ I made the above post to confuse people who try to filter me in the middle of the game, and think that post is actually part of my filter Hopefully hilarious shenanigans happen | ||
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In some large games, you have like a 16% chance of rolling scum or something like that In this game it is 27%. So yeah he's kind of justified lol | ||
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gonzaw
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But...I don't have time to put my makeup and dress sharply for the grand opening! What do I do!? :O | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 20 2014 07:05 jaybrundage wrote: You get more attention anyway if you show up naked. But I also don't have time to put baby oil all over my sweet muscles! :O | ||
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gonzaw
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Who volunteers? | ||
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gonzaw
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Very kinky indeed | ||
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gonzaw
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P(Holy is scum)= 1 P(everybody else is scum)=0 Then technically, it is RNG | ||
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gonzaw
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##Vote: Holyflare | ||
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gonzaw
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Gonzaw's Filter Starts Here Gonzaw Scum-terminator S.A™ is pleased to announce, that the filter of the player named gonzaw has officially started for the game Shadow Mini Mafia, at January 20th, 2014 11:20 GMT. In a world where there may be no tomorrow, one man stands before all. With the help of fellow partners, townies in arms, and a mysterious character known only as "shadow", witness gonzaw defeat the devilish mafia and vanquish evil from these lands. Now, behold the rest of the filter, for you will find wonders and treasures inside it, and who knows, maybe even love. Yours truly Sir Posts a Lot (a.k.a gonzaw) | ||
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gonzaw
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I don't remember the last time I was town playing with town Foolishness. I want to see town Foolishness destroying scum teams in a game I'm in once in my lifetime! Maybe we can partner up! There is a vacant spot at the Gonzaw Scum-terminator company (guy had bad B.O) you can fill. ...unless you are scum, in which case I'll be disappointed  I'm actually thinking about changing it to Scuminator. Hmm, yeah, Gonzaw Scuminator S.A ™ sounds better. brb patenting it. | ||
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gonzaw
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brb | ||
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gonzaw
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We won Hurray! Now I sleep + Show Spoiler + Just got here and its 2am here so see ya | ||
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gonzaw
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He's obvious scum. Let's lynch him once I wake up....maybe | ||
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gonzaw
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Im at work. Skimmed and theres too much blablabla ill ignore. Ill gladly focus on foo and maybe marvy when i get home. But right now, marv is right, unless anything more interestong happens foolishness should be D1 lynch. WHY CANT YOU BE TOWM FOO I REALLY WANT YOU TO!! Im scared of kita since he seems to have that umreadable type of attitude when playing and pressuring. Doesnt help he gets into fluffy discussions and shit. | ||
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gonzaw
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I,think i rememer you throwing buddies under the bus pretty early and with conviction when you were acum, so if foo is scum i dont really have a proble with you being too | ||
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gonzaw
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Well holy maybe you could chill down and wait till i get home and finally be able to read the thread. This little chat im having now is mostly to show my process of thougth while i read the thread and have little info and whilr i gain more info. Its a good way to establish one's towniness | ||
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Preface: I haven't reread the thread yet, but I'll post anyways. Why? Because it's another step in making me confirmed town, which is always nice. I'll continue my thoughts on Foolishness, then go get something to eat, come back, reread the thread, and post about that shit Holy's been buggering me about. Let's just start with some filters: Personality Mafia 2 - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400204&user=Foolishness TL Mafia LVIII - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373946&user=Foolishness Parallel World Mafia - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387591&user=Foolishness - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387370&user=Foolishness Bureaucracy Mafia - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=Foolishness Liar Game Mafia - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=Foolishness His filters are usually short, so you can easily skim all or most of those. One thing I notice about scum and town Foo, is the tone of his posts, or "seriousness" in which he posts. When Foo' is scum, you have a feeling that it's NOT him posting, but maybe BH or something. Both town and scum Foo sometimes make big posts, some times make one-liners, etc, so that's not really alignment-indicative, but his attitude, and, of course, overall attempts to find scum and move town forward are what separates them. Let's put some examples. Personality Mafia 2 On March 12 2013 09:44 Foolishness wrote: Actually, yamato makes a lot of sense. He's more trolly and abrasive when he's mafia. When I say that, I mean he's direct about his insults: "you're an asshat", etc. Refer to Fruity Mini Mafia to see this in action (when he's mafia). In Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia, he was town, and while his posting rate was the same, he wasn't as abrasive and didn't swear as much. More importantly, in that game he was actually helpful and contributing. You notice the helpful tone in Foo's posts. He answers directly, and pursues a town agenda. In contrast TL Mafia LVIII On January 04 2013 06:41 Foolishness wrote: Best post ever. It's so good I'm just not going to read the next 20 pages. On January 04 2013 06:49 Foolishness wrote: ##Vote: Toadesstern AWWWW YEEAAAAAHHHH Bureaucracy Mafia On July 17 2012 05:22 Foolishness wrote: Everyone should ignore Mattchew. He's so far off topic that I'm even going to do this Ace style: Ignore List: Mattchew Chezinu - does anyone honestly ever read his posts? Syllogism is mafia. Non-committal stances, doesn't even want to defend himself. Someone needs to redirect that nuke at marvellosity. And the next time Kurumi uses the phrase "actively lurking" someone should shoot him. And before someone asks, Palmar is town. Mafia never propose stupid things like random lynches day 1. ##Vote: syllogism Again, it doesn't seem that's Foo posting, but another more "trolly" player. He's abrasive, and makes little effort in appearing helpful. He doesn't explain himself, seemingly makes posts without thinking about them beforehand, makes baseless accusations, and basically trolls and goofs around. Pair Liar Game and Personality 2's filters on one hand, and the rest, and you can easily see some differences and similarities. But yes, at some points, town foo can get a little carried away (like in Personality), and at times scum Foo "try-hards" into making fluff posts. But those don't usually happen, and even if they did, you can still get a read on him. Now, when I see posts like these: On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote: This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow On January 21 2014 15:45 Foolishness wrote: Wait. Wait. If you are going to ignore it, why did you respond to it? It's not hard to see which one of those two different attitudes it reminds you of. Doesn't explain himself, makes baseless accusations, etc. He also makes some seemingly "casual" response, like the "Wait. Wait" thing. That's not the way I see town Foo posting. It's a small thing, but it does add a sense of "this is wrong" to his post. When Foo starts posting and you get that feeling, he is likely scum. I hope this serves as a "guide" or baseline for you guys trying to get a read off Foo, and not just ignore him for 10 days (if he happens to be scum). I'll see if I vote him or not later, I mean, I haven't even read the thread yet (at least the walls of text some guys have been posting). | ||
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gonzaw
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That only happens because town follows the sexy people, but ignore the smart ones ;_; | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 22 2014 01:50 kitaman27 wrote: How much time did you spend looking into Foolishness's history gonzaw? Additionally, what is the point of posting a guide on how to read Foolishness? If you point out his scum qualities before he has any actual posts, do you expect him to read your guide and then get caught anyways? Do you think this was an efficient use of your town as a player who hasn't even read the thread? When I think of a player that gets off to a trolly start as town, Foolishness is one of the first people to come to mind so I disagree with your assessment based on the posts that you have cherry picked. I'm still content with my vote on him however based on activity. I spent like 10-15 minutes. Foo is not the "versatile" kind of scum that instantly adapts his play and shit. If he's scum, he'll keep acting like this, so I don't worry about him "reading the guide and instantly become super pro town to avoid suspicions!" or something. Those posts he already made are good grounds to make me think he's scum, and possibly lynch him this D1. Of course he still has to post more, which will make us have a better read on him, but I don't see nothing wrong with my "guide" for now. Also, I always try to become almost-confirmed town when I'm town. Making these posts helps me do that. Maybe the "guide" is not really good if Foo ends up town, but anything that helps me not getting misslynched on D3 or something is good by my books. | ||
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On January 22 2014 01:50 kitaman27 wrote: When I think of a player that gets off to a trolly start as town, Foolishness is one of the first people to come to mind so I disagree with your assessment based on the posts that you have cherry picked. I'm still content with my vote on him however based on activity. Ehmm, I'm not really convinced by this. Yes, I cherry picked, and knew it is kind of pointless. I could have just said "read all his filters", but I needed to at least quote 1 or 2 posts (for those that can't be arsed to read his filters). You can easily read his filters (they are short) and come to the conclusion yourself. I'm wondering though, if you think the guide is wrong or something? You don't mention. Do you realize the differences between "scum Foo trolly start" and "town Foo trolly start"? Why do you insinuate his start this game is his "town trolly start" and not scum? If you vote him based on activity that's actually more lame. Town Foo isn't super active as marv either. | ||
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Maybe I just can't see if my posts are "scummy" or not? Hmm, I would have thought I'd have enough self-awareness to pick that stuff up, but I don't seem to see it, so kita and sandro agreeing on it seems weird to me. Doesn't this contradict your earlier posts about Foolishness's absence from the thread? ...no? Meh, going to be honest here I'll read at some later time, I'm kind of tired. It's so so much easier to follow the thread along and make little responses here and there than making the mental effort of reading previous posts and convincing yourself that you have to find all scum instantly by doing so. | ||
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On January 22 2014 03:10 kitaman27 wrote: I guess it has to do with the fact that the meta analysis was applied to a player with three posts, which I wouldn't be very confident in based on the sample size. If you come to the conclusion that a town Foolishness will eventually attempt to have a helpful attitude and start to scumhunt, yet you think a vote on him until the point where he does so is lame, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. If you prefer a wait and see attitude, then why not save your meta post until he has something to go by and then come to a conclusion then? Spoiler for stuff that may not matter much: + Show Spoiler + Because waiting until "he has something to go by" might be wasting time (I won't hold off a vote or read to wait for a guy to do some specific thing that may never happen, specially when I'm starting to feel strongly he can be scum). Yeah that tends to happen with Foo, at least with me. I rarely need him to like start posting a bunch before starting to believe he's scum. At times one post may be enough. Well, usually. I think I just have this urge to lynch a scum Foo on D1 since like ever lol. And again, I prefer to establish myself as super town before finding scum. If a post of mine makes no sense in the "hunt scum" department, it does in the "make everybody believe there is no way you can be scum" department. I didn't vote Foo...yet, because I was waiting to read the thread. I'll most likely vote him yes, but I'm not in a hurry. So I'm catching up. First things first: Why the hell does WOS post "Welp" so many times? :/ Are you trying to act like a noob on purpose or something? Dunno if it's scummy or too scummy to be scum, just straight up interesting (not in a good way) | ||
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But then him being too passive and "nooby" strikes me as off. I'm pretty grey on others, but I haven't finished reading yet (on page 16). Kita seems to be looking better though. I like the fact that his thought process is consistent when going against sandro and myself. I mean that "Don't tell scum about what you are looking for because they will avoid it" when he voted sandro and did that stuff to me. | ||
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Seems like a pointless bit of "character" to keep up with and fabricate, when nobody would seemingly pay notice to it (other than my super detective skills!). If he was scum, I would have thought he wouldn't bother with it. At worst it could be a coincidence, but it gives some slight points in his favour, since it shows that some "hidden" parts of his shown persona are made consistent. As town this comes naturally (you hide nothing), but as scum you either have to fabricate it, or something be so good it comes naturally too (or be a coincidence). Not something big, but something (IMO) worth noticing (and worth keeping noticing in the future) | ||
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...or maybe I just know nothing. Who knows? | ||
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You always try to keep my focus off Foolishness and onto guys like sandro. Did you read my post? You know that huge one? Scum Foolishness accuses people without backing it up in a "trolling" manner. Read the filters I provided, and that link marv provided as well. Foo's alignment is independent of WOS. I am free to figure out the alignment of both as much as I want. Even if Foo is scum it doesn't exempt WOS and his "nooby" behaviour so far. Also it's kind of a strawman, finding WOS's behaviour weird has no bearing on whatever Foo did against him, it's not black or white. | ||
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Do you know the inside of Foolishness head Holy? Can you read his mind? If so please help us figure out Foo's alignment since we seemingly have trouble doing that! | ||
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First of all: Damn you Prome you post so weird ;_; Anyways, yeah I'll vote Foolishness. None of his 3 posts make sense to me as town Foo, not a single one. You can play the "aw aww he has too little posts we can't do anything until he posts more!" card all you want but I call bullshit. It's his move now to convince me (us) into changing our votes. ##Vote: Foolishness I got a little interested in VE. At first I found him a little suspicious (when he didn't do much and started shouting and stuff). Then I found him a little bit less suspicious (explaining himself regarding Prome, and some reactions), but now I'm more torn to the suspicious side. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=15#293 You asked a question, and we both answered. But look at the language Wave uses versus mine...I've bolded what I think is an apologetic tone, like he feels bad even for entering discussion. And goes on to ask a completely irrelevant question of Hapa...I mean, I'm not sure exactly "fluffy" means as it pertains to finding scum, but Wave's post seems to fit the bill more than mine does in this particular instance as far as I can see I don't really feel good about VE "painting" WOS suspicious here, yet ignoring it. Okay, maybe he thinks WOS is super town, but that post of his was too "fluffy". The question is: Why couldn't Prome think that too? If VE thought WOS post was too fluffy or scummy, yet he doesn't think WOS is scum (apparently), what stops Prome from reading WOS's posts, find it fluffy/whatever, but not think WOS is scum, and focus on VE instead? Hmm, okay that above wasn't so much suspicion as something that sparked my interest (I kind of think town VE wouldn't really make that somewhat complex thinking regarding Prome's intentions perhaps). I'm more interested in VE's interactions with Foo': On January 21 2014 15:57 VisceraEyes wrote: So Foolish, do you think I'm making mountains of molehills? I've garnered two votes already, and since you didn't vote for me I'm left thinking that you must just disagree with my points? On January 21 2014 16:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Dude I just went on a rant about someone that is neither of the players you just mentioned. Are you scum Foolish? AGAIN? That kind of pressure, coupled with that kind of "conclusion", makes me think VE now thinks Foo is scum. Okay. Then marv, and kita, and me come and all shit on Foo. Then VE does absolutely nothing and backtracks that "strong" reaction against Foo (specially in a confusing way I couldn't really understand): On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him? That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all. If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. VE didn't post anything in between to change his mind. Foo didn't post anything in between to change his mind. Actually, other guys posted lots of stuff against Foolishness saying how he can be scum. So....why does VE backtrack? VE never mentions Foolishness again. | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote: This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow Vote with no justification whatsoever. Remember, this is Foo' we are talking about (not FourFace) On January 21 2014 15:45 Foolishness wrote: Wait. Wait. If you are going to ignore it, why did you respond to it? Pointless response, when he should....you know...explain why he's voting (in a "serious" manner) that guy. On January 21 2014 15:59 Foolishness wrote: You and Hapa are two townies that are arguing with each other over nothing. Random town reads on guys for no reason. Again, fails to contribute on anything else, specially his vote and apparently "super obvious scum read that makes this game solved for me" Also this should cover it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#359 | ||
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On January 22 2014 06:31 kitaman27 wrote: Could you explain to me how these two posts differ? Not sure I follow. The posts differ....ehmm..because they have different letters and words? You said you voted Foo' ONLY because of his activity (that's what I understood). That's kind of lame, compared to everything else said. Then you have people like Holy or austin saying "Leave Foo alone! You can't do anything until he posts more!". That is what I call bullshit. Anyways kita, I'd like a response for this: On January 22 2014 01:59 gonzaw wrote: Anyways Ehmm, I'm not really convinced by this. Yes, I cherry picked, and knew it is kind of pointless. I could have just said "read all his filters", but I needed to at least quote 1 or 2 posts (for those that can't be arsed to read his filters). You can easily read his filters (they are short) and come to the conclusion yourself. I'm wondering though, if you think the guide is wrong or something? You don't mention. Do you realize the differences between "scum Foo trolly start" and "town Foo trolly start"? Why do you insinuate his start this game is his "town trolly start" and not scum? If you vote him based on activity that's actually more lame. Town Foo isn't super active as marv either. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=16#318 This post seems odd to me. He just gets into the thread, and yet seems angry for some reason? He seems angry at Hapa I dunno why. Most of his post revolves around some small unimportant shit. He "pressures" Hapa because he didn't accuse Foo for Foo's town read on him, and because Hapa apparently backed down his "pressure" of sandro. I mean, those are valid concerns to pressure, but the way Holy does is odd as hell. He pushes it like it's some super awesome case. He addresses Hapa like he's cornered scum. don't understand why this conversation was ended around here. We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? This sentiment was echoed by hapa BUT THEN TOTALLY CONTRADICTED AS WELL. I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty. There are 2 things I find scummy about this: 1)He's super pissed of for no reason at all (I mean...read his all-caps sentence). A townie wouldn't be this pissed off on their 1st post against someone they haven't interacted with at the moment, and someone that didn't fuck up or did anything wrong (Hapa was actually pretty active by then, and apparently "pro-town", so why get so angry at him?). Unfounded anger and aggressiveness are mafia traits, either because he feels angry or mad at being scum, or because it's a scum agenda he's pushing. 2)The bolded bit seems too extreme to me, and also includes the fastest backpedalling I've seen. He considers Hapa not caring about sandro anymore. I mean, he even got that wrong (Hapa's "pressure sandro" is actually a line of reasoning to pressure WOS and kita; Hapa doesn't think himself that everybody should vote and pressure sandro until his head explodes or something). Saying that "This isn't something a townie mindset does at all" makes no sense. But then he doesn't keep that up and backpedals saying he doesn't want to be "hasty" or some shit. This post reads all wrong to me. Also, should I point the obvious contradictions?: We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? On January 21 2014 23:07 Holyflare wrote: Why Foolishness over sandroba? They have both posted nothing. Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today so why are you going to ignore the rest of what has happened on day 1 when your intentions are already set in stone? On January 22 2014 05:51 Holyflare wrote: Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote: I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person .... I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. For someone so HELLBENT on not letting any lurker go by and pressure them, he sure does let lurker Foolishness go by without pressuring him. Foo has some (founded) accusations against him, and he's lurking. Based on Holy's previous post, this is all good and dandy isn't it! Well, apparently not, since he refuses to acknowledge anything being said about Foo', and clearly states that he doesn't want to participate in a "futile" discussion where he has no "attitude towards foolishness" and is relentlessly going against him for doing what he actually said we should be doing (i.e pressuring the lurkers and not letting them go by even if they get "good later on" and stuff?) This makes no sense in context with his previous post. Also, apparently he thinks that these kind of contradictions "isn't something a townie mindset does at all" (which is what he did to Hapa before). So basically, he is calling himself scum. There's also the fact he thinks it's fine to pressure sandro but not Foolishness, and doesn't state many reasons for that. From his perspective there should be no difference between sandro and Foolishness (they are 2 lurkers who barely post and nobody knows much about them), however in Holy's posts there is a clear difference between them, where he wants to deflect attention from Foo and into sandro. Anyways, I don't want to get too much carried on, but right now i'm leaning towards Foo and Holy being scum, with VE coming up third. I'm open to discussions, and people throwing their ideas (and more importantly, their votes) based on this. I still want to keep my vote on Foo' first, and keep him up for lynch (unless other stuff happens). | ||
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On January 22 2014 06:54 austinmcc wrote: Can't speak for holy, but with me, it's that given the full menu of anything anyone could be doing, discussion of Foolishness's alignment doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't personally feel confident about reading THOSE 3-4 posts as alignment indicative, and don't feel comfortable with reading Foolishness right now. I don't understand anyone else feeling like the BEST read they can get on some scummy dudes is Foolishness. Mainly though, it seems like...good material for scum to post on. Weigh in that he's town, scum, a crocodile, whatever. You can say whatever you want about Foolishness, discuss his alignment until you're blue in the face, but really it comes down to "I think this thing about these 3-4 trolly/nothingposts." Given that, I think it's a more productive topic for scum (they get to post, give reads, but I don't anticipate anyone being lynched later on based primarily/heavily on whatever stance they took on Foolishness right at this second), than it is for town. That's why I don't think discussion should be centered on Foolishness, or heavily concerned with him. I care somewhat about him and his posting, but mainly it feels like a topic that allows mafia to freely post and keep discussion on Foolishness. The thing is, that when it comes down to Foo', his 3-4 posts are indeed alignment indicative. I also feel, that if Foo is town, unless there is a huge town mob against him they wouldn't really think about going against him. I mean, Town Foo is Town Foo, he'll get those scummers. Would you, as scum, freely go against a Town Foo, for Town Foo later to catch you and crucify you? If Foo is somehow town, then he did leave himself open for scum to have "good material to post on", but I don't think a scummer would feel so confident on going against him like he'd do any random lurker from any other random game. Also, at the very worst, follow this maxim: Sheep marv  Anyways....I kind of feel biased towards this whole "scum Foo" thing, maybe with my VE and Holy reads as well (which interestingly are related to the Foolishness thing as well). I would appreciate new takes on those 2 from other people. | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:11 austinmcc wrote: The only game I've played with town Foolishness, I was scum. He and marv flung shit at each other for a while, we/I stoked the fires heavily, and we won a flawless victory. I have never seen miraculous town foolishness, and I'm also an idiot sometimes, so yeah...I'm happy to go against Foolishness as scum. ESPECIALLY in an all-vanilla game, if someone is really a problem you can shoot them and never worry about a doc or getting watched or anything else. I actually like point 2 on holy's post about hapa (the backpedaling) and kinda sorta like the contradictory NO LURKERS --> why you guys voting this lurker/that lurker/any lurker stuff. Mainly still just want to see him and hapa chatting in a vacuum right now though. Hmm, yeah, I tend to overexaggerate my "accusations". I don't really think Holy is 100% confirmed scum or something, but he's getting too suspicious, "careless" and "senseless" by the minute (also apparently he has some vendetta or something against me for some reason....?). Which game are you talking about? I think maybe you are talking about Personality Mafia 2? I put that filter in the links I posted before. I don't want them chatting in a vacuum actually, that rarely gives anything meaningful. Hapa will ask questions, Holy will rationalize his actions and come up with excuses or justifications, and you'll end up "Hmm, so what was the purpose of this?" and gain no significant read on any of them. At least I don't care much for that kind of stuff, I ignore it most of the time. On January 22 2014 06:40 kitaman27 wrote: Are you saying that your vote isn't for activity? If you trying to say that you case has merit, rather than you're voting him because he hasn't produced content, than I think you might be mafia. You can't honestly tell me that you're confident about your vote. Activity is something that, yes is a little bit suspicious, but I dunno how much suspicious would be in Foo's case. Right now though, he is way too inactive so the more time passes the more scummy his inactivity alone appears. (Pre-Edit: Speaking of the devil )I'm voting him for the reasons I posted, both in that "halfassed" post I made, and my big one. Yes, I think all of those combined have some merit. I think your guide is irrelevant to this game. Maybe it would be a nice post game thought, but you can't apply it yet. You're a math guy. Surely you understand the concept of sample size. How can you be confident about your meta read based on a couple of intro posts? My "guide" is a meta case against Foo. You can't just ignore it and say it's "a nice post game thought". Please comment on it. If you can, read 1 town filter and 1 scum filter from the ones I posted, and see if you then agree with what I said or not. Sample size has little to do with catching scum. The only case where it matters is if the guys has a 40 page filter, where you can safely just say "yeah he town". A guy can have a single post in the entire game, and it can be the scummiest thing in the universe that instantly makes you want to tunnel him to death, or the guy can have 10 pages worth of filter and you can find nothing at all inside of it to figure out his alignment. I mean, yeah, it matters, but you can do away with it. | ||
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marv, so, whachu think 'bout Holy and VE-babe? Do you think my suspicions are founded, or that I'm being blinded by my "Foolishness" bis? Actually that question can go for anyone. Voting either Prome or WOS seems like tossing a coin up in the air. The reasonings used to vote for them (by Foo and others), are at best "ehh, perhaps?" to me (Prome's 1st post is obviously WIFOM, so can't really say it's a for or against him). I need to look at bigger trends in behaviour, and interactions of them with others before making a good solid read on either Prome or WOS, or hell even VE and that kind of players. | ||
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WOS made some pointless questions as well (like that one I mentioned before) Hapa made some obvious try-hard questions early on (like some of his questions about kita's vote on sandro). kita did also make those kind of questions Dunno if you can get alignment-indicative stuff out of them. Maybe you can, but I'm not that convinced about kita's. Feel free to continue with your reasoning or pressure if you want though, it doesn't hurt. | ||
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Edit Do you think my suspicions are founded, or that I'm being blinded by my "Foolishness" bias? Actually that question can go for anyone. | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:46 marvellosity wrote: I think you're more warranted on Holy than you are on VE, gonzaw. You're right that Holy did seem unnecessarily angry/fierce in that post you pointed out, and that is scummy VE I'm much more inclined to agree with Foolish on. I don't really see anything in his play that I find particularly scummy. He's pretty impetuous and involved gonzaw do you think kita's questioning of you is warranted? No-one seems at all interested and if you aren't then I'm gonna have to rethink this :/ I initially found it weird. Although, I was kind of okay with this response of his: On January 22 2014 03:10 kitaman27 wrote: I guess it has to do with the fact that the meta analysis was applied to a player with three posts, which I wouldn't be very confident in based on the sample size. If you come to the conclusion that a town Foolishness will eventually attempt to have a helpful attitude and start to scumhunt, yet you think a vote on him until the point where he does so is lame, I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. If you prefer a wait and see attitude, then why not save your meta post until he has something to go by and then come to a conclusion then? His "questioning" of me, seemed mostly based on the fact that I made that huge post out of the blue with "seemingly" no purpose at all. Don't really remember him calling me scummy or something. I kind of ignored his later jabs/responses at me though. I tend to think I can recognize scum wanting to get on my ass to lynch me and stuff and I didn't get that feeling with kita. I did get a tiny bit of that feeling with Holy for instance. Dunno, I guess I have other stuff to focus on. Well, okay, if VE isn't particularly scummy then I'll ask him to answer: VE, so what happened to your Foo' read bro? | ||
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Hmm, okay, I think we might get a little bit off track with all the discussions, questions, and shit going on. Personally, I want these: 1)Foolishness to do something more (I'm not very much convinced by his post. I read the Champion's Game as well marv). Notice how there's a lack of defense for his "horrible" posts. 2)Get some consensus on Holy based on what I posted 3)I guess some real talk about who to lynch this D1, not just fleeting questions and suspicions. | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:55 marvellosity wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=22#439 came after http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=22#435 and other posts where gonzaw talked about VE in quite some detail and also touched on Holy and WoS. In short gonzaw was not only tunnelling fool but spreading his tentacles about with quite a bit of thought Oh you'd like that wouldn't you? | ||
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I guess I'll have to use my tentacles on austin now. | ||
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Okay, I'll just wait for Foo' to come back then... .....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz | ||
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Or maybe you don't have enough info to decide that yet? | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote: The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here. What do you think about what I posted about Holy? What do you think of him defending you so much from me? What about people saying "D1 is marv's weakest cycle"? Marv initially voted and went after you. Is that alignment-indicative at all? Or are you just going to ignore it? In fact, are you going to ignore people going against you (even your town read kita)? You know, there are cases and shit written about you. Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. It's weird that I'm more town when I'm voting you than when I am not. From your POV you are town, how come when I AM voting you I am townier than when I am not? I'd like to know if you can justify that "vibe" you got from me. I tend to be very specific about my activity levels, in fact to not arouse those "he's lurking" accusations. If I go to sleep/work/see a football match/etc I state so. I guess you can say I can lie about it like BH does, but do you believe that? What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote: This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow From these 2 posts of yours, I seem to be getting conflicted feelings. On your 2nd one, you are SUPER SURE WOS is scum (that's the only reason to post what you did). On the first post of yours, you seem way less sure he's scum (if it weren't for that "most likely he's mafia" caption, I would have thought they were just fleeting suspicions and nothing beyond that). Also......yeah....you could have posted this when you made that vote couldn't you? Kind of anti-town to post the reasoning for your vote 12 hours after you make it don't you think? | ||
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@marv: + Show Spoiler + Well marv, funnily enough I have another "wacky" annecdote I had while rereading the thread that made me think kita is town. When I started reading the thread, I thought Hapa made little sense in his pursue of kita and kita's "joke" vote of sandro. Then kita made this post and I completely agreed with it at the time: On January 21 2014 12:16 kitaman27 wrote: If you start calling people scummy and vote for someone off their first post, people won't take you serious later on. I certainly wouldn't do something like that! The person I find scummiest so far is probably Hapa. The reason to random vote sandroba is because he is incredibly lazy and notorious for getting away without posting on day one. Hapa appears to identify that it would be a good idea to try to apply pressure to a slow starter, yet later suggests that he can't understand my objective. Rather than trying to contribute to the pressure, he is satisfied with asking serious questions such as "Why is he a great vote?", when I think it is pretty obvious that there isn't any content in the thread to justify it. Then you notice kita stops mentioning Hapa at all basically. I mean, you could think of that as mafia behaviour! He thought someone was scum and never mentioned him again! But then again, the same thing happened to me. Hapa got townier and townier so I just stopped noticing him and paying attention to him (and started noticing VE, WOS, Foo, etc), which mirrors kita's thread behaviour. Kind of funny, something you could see as super scummy behaviour actually makes him town... ...I hope I'm not wrong. If he's scum he's eerily good at getting inside my head O_o | ||
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On January 22 2014 08:53 Holyflare wrote: When I ran through the thread people were calling hapa "pro-town" yada yada, the stuff you were all saying was "lovely hapa please show us the way" so when I see the things that stand out, like accepting free town reads yet pushing a question on something different then I will of course pressure it There is a difference between "Everybody thinks this guy is so townie, but how can they be so sure? These things stand out i'll pressure him" and "Hmm, wait this guy kind of contradicted himself about sandro and didn't ask Foo about his town read on him. HE IS SCUM HE MUST DIE UNLESS HE EXPLAINS HIMSELF" (dramatization). The way I write is no different from how I have written in any game. In fact, you spent so much time looking into Foolishness' filter for his 4 posts but you have written at much more length about me and haven't bothered to check how I write, why is that? I already know about Foo's games for a while (been using the meta argument against him for a while now). And his filters are pretty short and I know what to expect in each (I've played with him in several of those). I know nothing about you, what to expect, etc, and I think I had enough in this thread to go check your meta. If you think it's important, sure, I'll go check your other games when I have time later. There is no anger in my typing, I use caps lock for emphasis on points I deem important. If I was angry I would be swearing. You also mention me backpeddling, yet, you don't understand why? If a player contradicts themself in such a gross fashion then there is a thought process behind it, somewhere. The action itself is scummy but the thought process (as revealed by hapa in his reply to me) was not. There is nothing wrong with being hesitant about a piece of information you display to the thread. Hmm, I'll check your other games for the "anger" thing. It's more unneeded aggression than anger, or being needlessly confrontational. You know your "contradiction" holds no water right? It makes no sense for you to get such heavy suspicions on him solely based on something that doesn't even exist and is apparent just by reading his post. The remaining quotes are so heavily taken out of context and misconstrued that I find it hard to believe that you follow the train of thought you have written. I quite clearly state that no player should go unpushed and many people had already mentioned foolishness by name and directed questions at him. If there was no response what further pressure can you possibly add at that point? The answer is quite clearly none and that is why I find it hard to believe that you would invest so much time into pushing and researching foolishness for 4 posts. Yeah, this post you have here doesn't make me think that at all: On January 21 2014 23:07 Holyflare wrote: Why Foolishness over sandroba? They have both posted nothing. Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today so why are you going to ignore the rest of what has happened on day 1 when your intentions are already set in stone? I hadn't even made my "big" post, and you had already started defending Foo and trying to put attention on sandro. You even go to great lengths to basically try and guess what's on my mind by saying stuff like "Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today" when I had said nothing at all basically. If there was no response what further pressure can you possibly add at that point? You mean besides making a (IMO strong) meta case against him that shows you why he's scum? Marv and kita just parked their votes on him, marv pressuring him a little bit. I can't see how you can think that at all. Also: Your return post stated you would ignore the rest of the thread apart from discussion about marv and foolishness, I simply said that foolishness had not posted but neither had sandroba so I was curious why you had picked one lurker over the other. At what point do I mention pressure on either of them is bad? It's implicit. I say I want Foo lynched, I give reasoning for it, I "pressure" him. You then start defending Foolishness (like that time you basically said "That's surely the reason why he voted WOS of course!"), while also ignoring my actual arguments against him. In my 1st post, I ONLY said "foolishness should be the D1 lynch". You somehow extended that into "Foolishness is a lurker, so I'll just randomly choose him as the D1 lynch" and went with that apparently? Although I get the feeling this has more to do with you trying to antagonize me at that time rather than sandro, or maybe even Foo'. Your Hapa "case" still doesn't make sense, and how you'd aggressively/confrontationally/etc call him scum over something that: 1-Is not true 2-Even if it was true it'd be null as fuck You going against me is still somewhat suspicious in my mind, since you defend Foo and my attack/pressure/etc on him without even addressing it at all (i.e you never mention my actual "case" at all, whether it has 4 posts or not, you just mention it as "futile" way later). Hmm, I'll try reading those games of yours. | ||
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On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: All my posts and every word I write has a distinct purpose. I don't have time to waste. I hope you have some more time to waste on me, because I'm keeping my vote on you until I'm convinced you are town or that someone else is more likely scum than you. You could try expanding more on Holy for example, maybe with new stuff that makes you think he's scum. You can also start by answering some of the stuff I asked you about (those which you haven't answered already). W need Prome and WOS in here... ...and VE. Where the hell did VE go? I'm not entirely sure where you guys get your town read on him. He's, at best, unreadable to me. Can't really figure out how some of you can get that much of a town read on him. Hapa, marv, etc, can you back some of your stuff up with posts from his previous games or something perhaps? For example, this... On January 22 2014 08:27 Hapahauli wrote: This is a mentality spot on for a townie who thinks he's being unfairly tunneled. Very genuine, and something I'd expect from a town VE. ...doesn't really convince me. For instance, ever since this post ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=15#293 ) he hasn't had a single suspicion on anybody, yet had 1 more page in his filter of posts (he backs out of his Prome scum read) | ||
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But....some stuff still doesn't make sense. The "story" he's weaven seems consistent perhaps, but still doesn't make sense overall. Why "tunnel" me like that? Like he fixates on me for quite a while when I (imo) made a reasonable case on Foo (or at least enough justification for me going against him) and clearly said I couldn't read the thread (cause I was at work). His Hapa stuff still doesn't make sense, how the hell can you have that kind of reaction to this "lovely pro town hapa" that's clearly faulty. He defends Foolishness over and over even when he posts stuff about him that's suspicious (like the first part of this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=16#318 ). He doesn't mention anything about anybody else. No WOS, no Prome, no sandro, no austin, no VE, etc. Nothing. He just "tunneled" Hapa, went against me, and is now defending himself. He hasn't contributed anything else at all | ||
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On January 22 2014 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm here, what's the beef Gonzaw? Where have I backed out of my Prom scumread? On January 22 2014 01:38 VisceraEyes wrote: This was a terrible reasoning for suspecting me in the first place, but to be fair it looks like a conversation starter more than an actual accusation, which can and does come from both alignments. However as a conversation starter, I do notice a distinct lack of calling me scummy or suspicious, only "disturbing". Could be benign icebreaking, or malicious doubt-weaving. Who can be so sure so early? I think it's suspicious because I think the rest of his play following this has been suspicious to me. This, coupled with you never mentioning Prome again, can only logically make me think you backed out of your Prome scumread. If you didn't.....wtf are you doing then? | ||
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You are content in doing nothing until he comes back? That doesn't seem too townie VE. | ||
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On January 22 2014 09:58 VisceraEyes wrote: I can't recall ever seeing gonzaw as scum either. You mean except those 3 times we played together and I was scum and you town? Well VE, we have 3 scum among us in a pretty insane ratio (almost 40% of players are scum), and we are struggling to find even a single one to lynch right now. Do you want to give us reasons for making that guy you? | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:18 VisceraEyes wrote: Good things and bad things happened in both of those movies. What are you asking gonzaw? I still find Foolishness a little suspicious, but think that Prome is a better lynch right now. Dunno, it sounded good in my head | ||
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I demand an explanation! | ||
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Anyways.....lol? Dunno how to react kita, seems everybody is throwing new guys into the lynch table each minute Although I was almost going to joke about sandro lurking his way into victory as scum or something before lol. ....meh. I was going to say "I'll wait till Prome gets here and contributes", but I know exactly what he'll do. He'll jump on your case and lynch the lurker sandro, based on his "we policy lynch the lurker no matter what" thing. You seem to not mention Holy, why is that? Speaking of marv, I see him playing like he did in MTG Mini Mafia 2. His inaction makes you want to think "He's not lynching the whole scumteam, so he must be scum no matter what", but well....he's just lazy town marv likely, like in that game. Apparently serious marv plays as FiveTouch, but lazy marv plays as "marvellosity". Considering that previous experience with him (where he was like 1HP from dying before the game ended), well....I'd like you to check that game out (or just take that knowledge into account) and tell me if it changes your read on him or not. | ||
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More recently, he didn't act like it in Personality 2, and didn't in Liar Game either. I.e Foo is not the scummy guy who revindicates himself with that big post. At least that's the picture I get from reading his filter those games. Like Hapa said, "big meaty posts" can and usually do (even if it was just once) come from scum Foo instead. His second post "seemed" townie...but then again he just sheeped my Holy read, and biffle-waffled on WOS a little bit. It's also pretty funny how he says something like this... On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: All my posts and every word I write has a distinct purpose. I don't have time to waste. ...yet he makes posts like this: On January 21 2014 15:45 Foolishness wrote: Wait. Wait. If you are going to ignore it, why did you respond to it? | ||
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On January 22 2014 13:28 gonzaw wrote: You seem to not mention Holy, why is that? Nevermind I don't know how to read apparently. | ||
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Seems well likely rush into a lynch candidate 20 minutes before deadline if this continues. So marvy, are you so convinced Foo is town because of his posts? If so could you try to convince me of it? | ||
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Hell you can even compare it to sandro, who at least engaged the thread a little bit wven if he lurks | ||
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Maybe we should follow his advice and policy lymch him? | ||
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Arg, now Prome reads town to me. What to do what to do. Also kind of forgot austin was playing this game, I'm eager to see his lynch push of the day. There's something weirdly interesting about the Holy issue. It seems contradictory in a sense. First, okay, yes, he did scummy shit; but that's irrelevant to my point. What happened, is that basically everybody is suspicious of him or accusing him. Not a single soul is defending him. I counted myself, marv, kita, Prome, Hapa and Foo basically saying "yeh he likely scum", and nobody else is defending him, just saying "I dunno" or "maybe I could vote for him". It's weird, in the sense....that if he's scum somebody would defend him, right? But then comes the other interesting part: he has not a single vote on him. I mean, think about it. I basically straight up called him scum. Hapa too. kita now does too. Foo said "Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that". Prome agreed with Hapa and mentioned other stuff. Yet, not a single one of those (myself included) put a vote on him yet. Not only that, not a single one of the other people "not sure" or whatever put a vote on him either. I can imagine 2 scenarios: There is scum in those guys I mention, and there is scum in the guys NOT mentioned (like sandro, austin, WOS). If the guys I mentioned are scum, and Holy town, then surely they have an easy target right? They can park their vote on Holy, and be totally fine since 80% of the thread is against Holy (unless they don't want to be the first ones to do it or some shit). If the other guys I mentioned are scum (or rather, there is scum among them), then wouldn't this also be a good chance to park a vote on Holy? All the town "heavyweights" (who are pushing Holy) agree with a Holy lynch, so if you are austin scum, or WOS scum, or maybe sandro scum, or VE scum, etc, wouldn't you be VERY comfortable parking a vote on him? It's much more easier to pick Holy than to act "clueless town" and basically engage the thread in discussions and the like. So, why is nothing like that happening? I think this can make it more likely Holy is scum, based on how the thread is interacting with him. That would make sense, the townies find him scummy, and the scum are slightly bussing him (since Holy isn't even voted yet), or leaving the door open to bus him (if, for instance, VE or WOS are scum). I'll see what you guys think. I think a Holy lynch might actually be a good D1 lynch....but then again I think a D1 Foo lynch seems good too, and I don't want to "save" a scum Foolishness from today's lynch (if he is indeed scum). | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote: Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. I wanted Foo to clarify this, but since he didn't (figure that out), I'll just basically guess what he means, on basically the only thing that makes sense for him to think. So, I called Foo scum, but didn't vote him until later right? Foolishness mentions that I was mafia to him, until I voted. I can only take this means that he finds it very scummy that someone accuses someone else, but doesn't vote him, and just keeps talking about shit. So far so good? Okay Now we come back to these: On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: Yes I did that yesterday when I first accused him. However I did not find anything really damning on that front. He's only had one game as mafia here and there weren't any glaring similarities to that. For example, when WoS was mafia he swore a ton (just skim through his posts and you will see that) but when he's town that kind of attitude is absent. Also feels like he might be slightly more trolly when he's mafia. I'm still suspicious of him and want to clear the air on him now and not later because as I said in my previous posts he made a lot of generic statements and had opportunities to answer questions and instead only gave more questions to the thread. And a part of me does feel that his interaction with Promethelax says that at most one of them is mafia. I may be reading into that too much. All my posts and every word I write has a distinct purpose. I don't have time to waste. At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though. I had HolyFlare on my question mark list since yesterday because as I said it felt like he was here posting but I couldn't remember anything he did and that is troublesome. Gonzaw I brought my arguments against you when you brought forth the analysis against me and I still stand by what I said. However I would not lynch you since you are actually here and posting and bring new information to the thread (and not just information about Holyflare either). There's no reason to doubt your alignment at this point especially if this posting rate keeps up. Same with Austin as well. I still stand by that marvellosity is a big mystery this game. He's not our lynch today but everyone should have at least one eye on him. It's funny how he thought I was almost mafia for not putting my vote on him (i.e I was mafia until I did vote him, then I became less suspicious), yet he's doing exactly the same thing. Here is his vote, if you remember: On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote: This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow He says he wants Prome and/or Holy lynched, yet his vote is from 18 hours ago on a guy he biffle-waffles and doesn't even want lynched. Yet he himself apparently thinks that is a mafia trait, since he used that argument against me (again, I'm assuming that's what he meant by his "scumread" on me). Scummy contradiction much? ...can we please lynch him? Pretty please? :3 | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:36 marvellosity wrote: I agree with what you said above and below the line ##Vote: Holyflare what now? EHmm...we lynch Foolishness? | ||
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But then again, there is Foo, who is not doing anything to make me think he's town. I also have this "urge" to always catch a scum Foo. Like, in Obs QT and the like, I catch a scum Foo, but everybody else in the game ignores him. Then I yell at them "BUT HES OBVIOUS SCUM WHY DO YOU KEEP HIM ALIVE!?". I have that same feeling of "catching" him, albeit slightly less (mostly because he has done less and made less posts and the game isn't fully developed). I don't want to be hypocrite, and let a scum Foo live until LYLO or some shit, when I KNOW I want to lynch scum Foo right now. But maybe it isn't optimal town play perhaps...I dunno. | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:42 marvellosity wrote: Optimal townplay is simply lynching mafia, don't overthink that shiz how much is "slightly less"? actually slightly less? no sarcastic response, you earned such a question :p Well, the more you guys give Foo town reads, tell me he's a bad lynch, or basically stalk me for going against him (looking at you Holy), the less sure I get @kita: You have the strange habit of "sheeping" reads and votes, without actually addressing the reasons you are sheeping them? marv agrees with my post, I mentioned a reason for Holy being scum. You sheep marv...but you don't care about that post I made, which is basically what made marv vote Holy just now? Something similar happened with your vote on Foolishness. marv voted Foo because he made a horrible unexplained vote and entrance. Then you sheep marv as well, but ignore that fact, and spout some other stuff about activity What gives? | ||
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Mainly austin coming back with hopefully a wall of text pinning the whole scumteam, or Foolishness actually making another post (of anything. He can post a cat gif and I'll be happy), or Holy actually trying to make a contribution and not just angrily defend himself. Surely something will happen that will make this D1 lynch apparent, hopefully. Waiting for sandro too. He has to vote or get modkilled, so he has to do something. Also to see who VE will vote out of Holy and Foo. IM WATCHING YOU VE!!! | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:57 kitaman27 wrote: Was there something about my earlier Holyfire post that you were not satisfied with? I don't find that I am sheeping marv. I have commented more about Holy than he had. Not really...but you didn't vote him then did you? I'm more than willing to move my vote around throughout the day. I find that it generates more discussion this way. The final vote is the only one that counts so why not? I just find it weird that the action of you voting is like this automatic sheeping action when marv votes someone. | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:59 marvellosity wrote: I don't know if Holy's absence makes me feel better or worse about my vote. Like he said he was phone posting and he'd give reads in the morning. Is the plan really to just afk and hope people don't notice? Seems to be Foo's and sandro's plan as well. I don't really care about the afk stuff about Holy. But kita or Prome or someone did say something interesting, is that with the time he HAD, he did nothing. He just angrily accused me and Hapa from being evil manipulators and shit and heavily defending himself and trying to rationalize every thing he has done, but that's it | ||
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Ehmm...yeah | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: HolyFlare Come make me move it bro. So, sheeping town sentiment here, or did my previous post instantly illuminate your mind to convince you Holy is a better lynch than the guy you said was a better lynch? | ||
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Basically: 1)Voting WOS, wanting to lynch other guys, but never change his vote and goes AFK 2)Seeming contradiction, since he almost thought I was scummy scum because I "did" something similar 3)People seemed to find him town because they agreed with him. But right now, apparently town sentiment against WOS and Prome dropped, so what makes that post of him townie now? 4)Remember the time he made a horrible entrance to the game making a scummy vote, pointless post and unfounded reads? | ||
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Your play is oddly underwhelming right now. | ||
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On January 23 2014 03:08 Holyflare wrote: I don't get why people are picking up on me attacking hapa who "looked towny", he had contradictions in a thought process that I picked up on and questioned. Either way, I apologise for my lack of playing this game. I fully expected to be able to contribute time but my circumstances changed on the day the game started and so each and every single one of my posts has been posted from my phone, I was just picking up on points that I thought were contradictary and the such, no "aggression" is intended it's just how I post (Hogwarts I got called out for being aggressive as scum so there is no way I would ever try and look like that in a game again as scum). Either way, my initial read was on gonzaw being scummy because of his time allocation, that subsequently changed based on his responses and although I mention the repeated bastardisation and misconstruing of my posts that increasingly (as he kept doing it and still is) looks more and more like a tunneled towny and so I used my time to defend myself from him so as to divulge my thought processes and vindicate myself to the person that I think is towny (from the people that I have focused on). I thought hapa was looking scummy because of his contradictions but his response to me made me back off of that. I can't delve into quotes and things like I normally would but please please look at when gonzaw posted that "case" (that I said was heavily misconstrued) on me. The responses that meekly followed that said "yeh, that's true" and "hmmm yeh I can see that" should be heavily scrutinised as they were, like was just said, not backed up by votes. Like I said at the start, you shouldn't let people who get better later "sandroba AND foolishness (although he has posted now)" sit back, they should be entirely pressured. Sandroba even went so far as to get a good ++ (I think?) from foolishness??? despite his less than 1 page filter with nothing contributary in. Either way, I've asked to be subbed out so have fun. Lots of my posts came from my phone as well. You can actually see me here active contributing and shit with those. I don't see you making excuses for not contributing though, just for not being active. You clearly read the thread since you picked all those posts from Hapa and me. What excuse is there to not mention at least a single line about another player who just did something suspicious or something? Remember this? On January 21 2014 23:12 Holyflare wrote: That's not my point. If what Foolishness has posted is in fact indicative of a scum Foolishness and he is your most likely to be lynched target then why are you not reading into the only tangible bit of the thread with content to get other reads and find other scum? It applies to you as well. Like I said at the start, you shouldn't let people who get better later "sandroba AND foolishness (although he has posted now)" sit back, they should be entirely pressured. Sandroba even went so far as to get a good ++ (I think?) from foolishness??? despite his less than 1 page filter with nothing contributary in. Yes you kept repeating this a lot. But why hasn't your view on those two changed at all from that? You pressure those players early D1, you want us to pressure them right now? We lynch right now, not pressure. It seems to me you have this specific narrow "mindset" (think lurkers sandro and foo should be pressured, Hapa contradicted himself, gonzaw weird for talking about Foo, gotta defend myself from them), which you just keep using and keep using over and over. Basically, it's the same mindset and stuff you've been talking about since your 1st post. Your mindset didn't evolve into anything at all. That's one of the things that worries me the most. Townie's mindset evolve, specially on D1 where you start with absolutely nothing and gain lots and LOTS of info as the game progresses. It's very easy, as scum, to just put a single thing on your mind (when you have to post) and make your posts always revolve around those. It's easier to keep your story straight when it has less tangents. Either way, I've asked to be subbed out so have fun. Is this a scum claim? These kind of posts, are those that you can't really just say "fuck you" or whatever, since they deal with out of game stuff that could be real or not (at least his reaction to it can be real or not). But then, this post is still strange Holy for the reasons I mentioned. Apparently this will be your last post this cycle. Maybe it's better to lynch you in the end (I mean...if you are not going to contribute at all and just quitted). | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: HolyFlare Expect me to switch my vote 10000 more times before the end of the cycle though (most likely) | ||
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On January 23 2014 03:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I can't help it. Circumstances are what they are. And you don't want my reason, it's bad. Well VE. Me flipflopping between Foo and Holy and switching votes over and over makes sense (if it doesn't, then just ask, but I think I posted enough about it). You flipping and switching votes between Foo and Holy like you do doesn't. Either you don't give a shit and just change them for the sake of it, or you have some ulterior reason (that makes you torn between which one of those two to lynch) that you haven't posted for some reason. | ||
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##Vote: Foolishness Holy already has votes on him. Want to put Foo on a playing field to see how others react to the possibility of Foo being a D1 lynch (if I remove the vote, VE will remove the vote, and nobody will give a shit about Foo). | ||
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From my perspective, that post of his right now basically means he won't post anymore. He won't contribute anymore, nothing. We can't get any info whatsoever from him or his spot until after D1 ends. That would be different if he was just AFK, where we do get info (i.e he's lurking), or if he comes back and does anything else. By having so many suspicions on him, town sentiment against him, by straight up doing that he forces us to lynch him without a second thought, or completely ignore him from now on. However, if we do the 2nd one, it'd introduce way too much chaos into town, specially if there is not much time before the day ends. Town would have to find new suspects and lynch candidates, etc. It opens a weak spot for scum to influence the lynch or for us to straight up fuck up. Doesn't that basically mean, that we have to lynch him? Right now, I don't see town sheeping me into lynching Foo at all. What is town going to do? Hastily vote sandro for not showing up 30 minutes before D1 ends? Having votes split between kita, Prome, Foo and sandro and basically not have any direction whatsoever? What are you guys planning to do? | ||
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What I'm still not really convinced is this However, you don't try and rationalise it as a townie that is under attack and just has no time to play I think I can get that stuff, but after I made my "case". Before that I don't really get it. I.e your actions and stuff. Yes, I read your previous games and instantly saw it's be pointless since your play is different here. Here you are indeed more "focused", and post less, etc, than in either your previous town or scum cases. It does make sense you have little time to play in this game (so makes your previous games irrelevant). But the real question is: are you a scum with little time to play, or a townie with little time to play? | ||
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Yes, I read your previous games and instantly saw it's be pointless since your play is different here. Here you are indeed more "focused", and post less, etc, than in either your previous town or scum games. | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:01 austinmcc wrote: WoS, you around? Gonzaw, I don't think we can be sure what nobody defending HolyFlare means, but I think in the bigger context of this game, we can't get too much from that. Nobody is defending Foolishness either (I might, yeah, think I will), nobody really popped up to defend WoS or Prome while they were getting more attention, and for the most part it's people dropping off "x is scummy" after they've posted more, not actively pushing "WoS or Prome super town." Just not a ton of defending this game in general, imo. Gonzaw, 2 question to start off since you're active right now.You keep poking at Foolishness's past games. Do these things, dinky votes, horrible entrances, pointless posts, fit with scum Foolish? Also, honest question, if someone did these things vs did NOTHING, no votes, no real posts to be scummy or townie, etc, which player would you find scummier? austin, it's not time for you to make pointless questions to me + Show Spoiler + really? Why would I explicitly make that meta case against him, and explicitely MENTION THE POSTS THEMSELVES, if I didn't think the "scummy vote, pointless post and unfounded reads" makes him scum Foo? Have you read my posts at all? You've been waffling around ever since I remember austin. I'm not comfortable with that. | ||
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Or at least put him into the lynch table. I mean, nobody wants to lynch Foo, everybody is baffled about lynching Prome or whatever, so why not? | ||
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Also, honest question, if someone did these things vs did NOTHING, no votes, no real posts to be scummy or townie, etc, which player would you find scummier? Don't see how me answering this question at this point has any bearing at all with what's going on, and more importantly with what that post he quoted. It's like a fluff question Hapa or WOS would make early D1, not a question you'd make very late D1 when you have so much other stuff to choose from (you can filter dive me to get info if you want), and there is basically no lynch set in stone. It's some speculative question that doesn't do anything. You want me to answer "Oh, if Hapa did NOTHING, made no votes, no real posts to be scummy or townie, yes he'd be scummier!"? What will you do with that answer? You keep poking at Foolishness's past games. Do these things, dinky votes, horrible entrances, pointless posts, fit with scum Foolish? This proves you haven't been reading the thread at all then? This is literally answered in that huge post I made 20 hours ago. I also don't remember him taking a stance on anybody. I think he FoSed Prome? He FoSed Holy at some point, or he agreed with Hapa's post or something. | ||
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On January 22 2014 01:41 gonzaw wrote: (as scum) Again, it doesn't seem that's Foo posting, but another more "trolly" player. He's abrasive, and makes little effort in appearing helpful. He doesn't explain himself, seemingly makes posts without thinking about them beforehand, makes baseless accusations, and basically trolls and goofs around. Pair Liar Game and Personality 2's filters on one hand, and the rest, and you can easily see some differences and similarities. But yes, at some points, town foo can get a little carried away (like in Personality), and at times scum Foo "try-hards" into making fluff posts. But those don't usually happen, and even if they did, you can still get a read on him. Now, when I see posts like these: It's not hard to see which one of those two different attitudes it reminds you of. Doesn't explain himself, makes baseless accusations, etc. He also makes some seemingly "casual" response, like the "Wait. Wait" thing. That's not the way I see town Foo posting. It's a small thing, but it does add a sense of "this is wrong" to his post. When Foo starts posting and you get that feeling, he is likely scum. This literally answers your question austin. | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:11 austinmcc wrote: I actually like point 2 on holy's post about hapa (the backpedaling) and kinda sorta like the contradictory NO LURKERS --> why you guys voting this lurker/that lurker/any lurker stuff. Mainly still just want to see him and hapa chatting in a vacuum right now though. So, what about Holy? You mentioned this right after I made my "case" against him and Hapa made some points against him as well (which you agreed here). So? You never mention him again. You don't mention him right now. What's up with you and Foolishness? Okay, apparently you don't agree with my meta case (for some reason). Okay, that's not too bad I guess. But what about his actual first posts? You think they are GOOD? You only defend him against me attacking him for being "trolly" and the meta case, but what do you think about those posts he made? On January 22 2014 06:54 austinmcc wrote: Can't speak for holy, but with me, it's that given the full menu of anything anyone could be doing, discussion of Foolishness's alignment doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't personally feel confident about reading THOSE 3-4 posts as alignment indicative, and don't feel comfortable with reading Foolishness right now. I don't understand anyone else feeling like the BEST read they can get on some scummy dudes is Foolishness. Mainly though, it seems like...good material for scum to post on. Weigh in that he's town, scum, a crocodile, whatever. You can say whatever you want about Foolishness, discuss his alignment until you're blue in the face, but really it comes down to "I think this thing about these 3-4 trolly/nothingposts." Given that, I think it's a more productive topic for scum (they get to post, give reads, but I don't anticipate anyone being lynched later on based primarily/heavily on whatever stance they took on Foolishness right at this second), than it is for town. That's why I don't think discussion should be centered on Foolishness, or heavily concerned with him. I care somewhat about him and his posting, but mainly it feels like a topic that allows mafia to freely post and keep discussion on Foolishness. Ignoring the fact this is all fluffy "oh, I don't want to talk about Foolishness because scum are surely going to discuss Foolishness!", what about now? Nobody gives a shit about Foo right now. Only WOS and VE briefly discussed him, nothing more. So I guess there are no "mafia freely posting and keeping discussion on Foolishness" right? If so it completely invalidates this "defense" of him (or rather, avoidance of making a read on him), so you could as well start having a discussion centered on Foolishness. You can start by, like, posting what you think of his 2 "big" posts, and his reads and stuff. On January 23 2014 04:21 austinmcc wrote: Not pointless. You want to lynch Foolishness, either a bunch or to a decent degree. You've got some problems with his play. Looking at Parallel Worlds, i do not see the same stuff there as here. scumFoolishness there wasn't trolly, dropping dumb votes, etc. On December 12 2012 10:17 Foolishness wrote: I don't even think it's worthwhile to bother with the swapping. Knowing Greymist there's probably random swaps every night whether we want them or not. We have to lynch someone, we figure out who. Other world should be figuring out who they want to lynch tomorrow. Anyways I'm voting for marvellosity cause he's mafia. ##Vote: marvellosity WRONG. Anyways, you seem to be making a meta case FOR his posts not being scummy. Does that mean you think his early 3 posts were not scummy? Why austin? Everybody basically agrees they are somewhat scummy. Why are you DEFENDING those posts of his via some weird meta? Take those posts for what they are, posts from a player playing this game. What do they tell you? At the very least, I take issue with 1 and 4 above in your summary of bad things about Foolishness. 3 is a perfectly legitimate question for anyone who was townie on Foolishness because of his reads in particular. Why do you take issue with 1? You think it doesn't matter that Foo has his vote on a guy he doesn't want to lynch? And about 3, what do you believe? Yes, it's a perfectly legitimate question, so please answer it austin, don't wait for others to do so for you Also, what's up with you and chatting? I thought WOS had an obsession with it, but you seem to be OCD about it wtf | ||
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You like that then? | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:41 WaveofShadow wrote: And for the record I probably am probably scummier on inactive Foolishness than inactive sandroba. Could be bias because I have precedent in PYP for sandroba in terms of an early game lurk then blasting onto the scene, but as was mentioend before (I forget by who atm?) sandroba was actively engaging the thread when he was around, whereas Foolishness basically hasn't talked to anyone, he just threw stuff and fucked off multiple times. That'd be a sexy sexy man | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:51 kitaman27 wrote: Those are two people on my short list, but I wouldn't single those guys out from sandroba or marv. For the sake of consolidating, I'd be satisfied with those two as the main candidate, but the final vote would still likely be based on their final posts. Well, if you don't like them then get to it. Sorry for getting too jiggly with it, but let's get some consolidation please? You are here complaining about the direction and not knowing what to do. I'm trying to get you to do something then. Same with others Can you tell me what you think about the stuff austin posted (i.e his "bad" post)? What about his read on Foolishness, or the fact he doesn't post anything substantial whatsoever? Anything you want to add? If you guys want to single out marv, well, okay. But please put more effort into it. Like, check his previous scum/town games, or put something with more substance as a case. Although I don't really want to go read it (it's kind of long), I don't really have any conflicts with marv's play this game, and, for instance, MTG Mini Mafia 2. The "strange" thing though, is that I don't think I ever played with scum marv with me being town. That was primarily my reason for FoSing him in MTG (since he was playing different than the "usual" town marv). I guess it does mean I don't really know how he'd play as scum against me lol. Anyways, this marv doesn't really seem like he has an agenda. I think I read some previous scum game of his, were you could see he was casting suspicion on people, trying to do "stuff", etc. He's harmless in this game. I also think that marv kind of is using town strategies this game. Like, early on, he said he was gaining some reads, while he was poking people, etc, but he didn't post anything else about them. Marv is a big advocate of the "Keep town in a need to know basis" town strategy. His behaviour early on this D1 certainly felt like that. I couldn't really think of a scenario where he'd do that as scum willingly (it'd either be pointless or too unnecessarily complex) | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:53 austinmcc wrote: I wasn't around for Liar Game. I was around for scum Foolishness in Parallel Worlds. There I see more real posts, much less trolly stuff, from Scum Foolishness, before pressure really on him and after. People are also drawing on Parallel Worlds for the "Big Post" thing, because Foolishness made a big "direct-the-thread" post there once under pressure, similar to his post here, and what I believe he did in AFK Champions Mafia on that other site. I don't know that Liar Game is a great game to pull a meta from, given how HEAVILY themed it was and the way that voting worked that game. I know you remember it better than I. Parallel Worlds also pretty heavily themed, but the lynch mechanics were, I would argue, more normal than in Liar Game. You would say that a heavily themed game would make a Scum Foolishness be MORE aggressive/confident than in an All-Vanilla game, or the opposite austin? I don't really see a contradiction with a Scum Foo feeling more "intimidated", or (maybe a better term) "not knowing what to do" (thus not really posting much "real posts" with "less trolly stuff") in an All-Vanilla game where there is no setup discussion, no wacky mechanics, no PMs, to hide in, than in a Heavily Themed game where there is. | ||
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Get to it people | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: As I also said in my recent post, you dying would answer a lot of questions. Not that that's going to happen anytime soon (or ever really). Yeah of course. See scum? I'll live for the rest of the game, there is nothing you can do about it! *wink* *wink* | ||
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Right? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: 1) I explained why I kept my vote on WoS, since then he has responded and I liked what he said. He's being very affirmative and speaking his thoughts. When I first accused him early in the day I thought the opposite of this (also explained in my earlier posts). Now he's here, he's posting, and he's trying for the town. And that's the direction I started to lean towards when I made my big post. My vote on WoS was to affirm this suspicion, and also to get other people to comment on it. Sorry that doesn't make much sense to me. I'd think after "getting obvious scum" Holy (based on your post) you wouldn't really care about "pressuring" WoS with that vote, and would care more about, you know, voting scum. | ||
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sandroba marvellosity Assume you HAVE to pick ONLY ONE of them. Which one do you pick and why? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:17 Foolishness wrote: 100% Real. I have read it. Nothing has changed. Also it is clear that in the last few pages you are just searching for arguments against me that aren't there. I responded to your main points and obviously since you have nothing to say about them it is obvious that there is nothing to say about them (cause there isn't!) You are creating the arguments yourself, by saying stuff like "To explain Austin...You're here and posting, should be obvious that you are town" | ||
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From what I know about Austin (which isn't that much) he likes to make good, long posts with lots of analysis, similar to a Foolishness or Kitaman Can you please show me those analysis of his from this game? On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Marvellosity. He's posted a bunch and hasn't done anything. Can you tell me without looking at his filter something that marvellosity has done for the town this game? + Show Spoiler + The real answer to your question is "both" Do you think it's possible both of them are town? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:52 WaveofShadow wrote: IF VE is scum I will have a big sad. I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw. Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? Foolishness. | ||
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The way you think austin is like confirmed town...when he STILL doesn't have a SINGLE suspicion nor candidate to lynch, and the fact you say he's making "posts full of analysis, similar to Foolishness". If you mean the Foolishness from THIS game then sure, if you mean the famous Town Foolishness we all remember, then surely you are trolling, right? You still think Prome is scum while adding nothing new at all, even when your previous case wasn't that great and Prome posted lots of new stuff and made that "stream of consciousness" stuff. You seem to have lots of town reads you are somehow so confident on with either no (VE) or bad (austin) reasoning, yet you still call them like 100% town. I can't know how you can arrive at those conclusions at all with what's been going on in the thread (i.e you seem to have more info than us, i.e you are scum). You know what they say, if someone is spouting lots of town reads, watch out. | ||
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Definitely not marv right now. Sandro neither, unless it's only for policy. He's getting modkilled or replaced as well apparently. If you can't be here by the deadline, well, it kind of sucks we have 1 less "reasonable" vote around. Vote for whoever you want lynched, and if you don't really know that, vote for whoever you want to have just 1 more vote, so we use that info to determine the correct lynch today. | ||
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On January 23 2014 06:03 Foolishness wrote: No, but Marvellosity is known for getting things done on day 1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389088&user=SuckMyTopdeck Read his filter there (he's hydra with SnB), and tell me if it changes your read on him or not. | ||
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On January 23 2014 06:38 gonzaw wrote: Foo, do you think maybe both sandro and marv could be town? Care to answer that? | ||
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Foo, please PLEASE tell me one thing: WTF is up with your first posts? Why: 1)Vote someone without posting any reason behind it, then AFKing before doing so 2)Randomly call 2 guys town, again, without posting any reason behind it, nor having any kind of previous interaction with them nor context to make us know why you think so. | ||
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Why can't all of you guys be good townies and not do scummy shit? | ||
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marvy, you said you would be thinking about Holy after you come back.....so? You are just focusing on Foo now. | ||
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Did Holy's post really convince you he's not that surefire scum you thought he was before? 1) To see how people would respond to it, but mostly to see how he responded. I quoted his first post (which is suspicious as I've already explained) so that you would know where I saw the evidence before I revealed my whole hand. You mean by calling you scum and tunneling you until your D1 lynch? Sounds like a great plan Foolishness! | ||
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I will have to say though, that I'm much more likely to lynch Holy rather than Prome (at least right now). If it comes down to that, then I advise we lynch Prome. Getting mixed feelings about Foo' right now. It is indeed most likely my paranoia and/or lack of confidence though. | ||
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lol On January 23 2014 07:02 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, okay I'm going to read Prome's filter. I will have to say though, that I'm much more likely to lynch Holy rather than Prome (at least right now). If it comes down to that, then I advise we lynch Holy. Getting mixed feelings about Foo' right now. It is indeed most likely my paranoia and/or lack of confidence though. Need I remind you sandroba is also replacing out (and well..Hapa as well unless he shows up)? We can end up with 2 new dudes replacing into scummy spots. If this is chaos right now, then I don't want to know what D2 will be. | ||
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I'm not quite comfortable with that. | ||
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On January 23 2014 07:04 austinmcc wrote: How do we know sandro is replacing out? Did i miss something? He didn't vote and has been AFK for like 30 hours...? | ||
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....sorry couldn't contain myself While I read Prome, please someone comment about austin. At least tell me I'm an idiot and he's obvs town like Foo did | ||
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Prome is your 1st scum read in this whole game basically | ||
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It's shit like this I do not tolerate and would be willing to policy lynch you right now. Hell I think I might try and just do that, but have to read that Prome filter first (goddamed this Man U - Sunderland match never ends). | ||
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GOOD GOD PEOPLE | ||
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On January 23 2014 07:28 Promethelax wrote: Yes I think holy is a good lynch. My good lynch list is: holy, fool, Kita, sand, Austin. Unfortunately none of them are making me jump out of my skin and scream: scum! They are all scummy to the point of being willing to lynch them. QUICK Is sandro scum or not for him trying to hammer you right now? | ||
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Then Hapa coming out of nowhere and apparently voting Prome without having read the thread yet. | ||
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VE, god fucking dammit wtf are you doing | ||
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Prome is right here posting with us. He doesn't seem too desperate, and isn't flinging shit at people. What would you do as scum who is JUST ABOUT to get lynched? I read Prome's filter, dont' really know what to say, I just dont' find it scummy. Read kita's case, it seems his case on Prome is more based on Prome's attack of kita. Kind of biased seems. kita parks vote on Prome, disappears Foo parks vote on Prome, disappears (i.e he's not here right now) sandro comes out of hibernation to make his SUPER CASE, parks vote on Prome, AND DISAPPEARS. Also that thing where Prome attacks austin out of nowhere, but it was a "mistake", is just not scum. Why the fuck would he do something like that on purpose as scum? So, we lynch Foo or sandro. Which one? I think I might actually want to lynch sandro: sandro, I have to say that the way you are approaching this lynch seems too "fabricated". You come 40 minutes before deadline, with this "I'm so confident of myself!" attitude in trying to lynch Prome. Does that mean you read all the thread by now? Or you just came here and haven't started reading yet (which would be stupid if you made that vote)? It seems too much that it pushes an agenda, it's "Im here LYNCH PROME bye" or something. I don't get the feeling you naturally came up to that conclusion by having a "natural" way of following the thread, or whatever. Now you parked your vote, and you are apparently 100% sure Prome is scum (sorry, 95%), where your case doesn't seem so great (it's just 2 points, not a Protactinium type of case I'd say). The first part of your filter, you are so "docile", saying "I like kita", "oh foo please answer me this question" or whatever (with 0 reads of course). Yet now you are suddenly this super confident guy that seems has been tunneling Prome since the 1st minute of the game? I don't really buy that. Your stuff here seems the most "stuff scum would do" so far, I think I'm more inclined lynching you sandro. | ||
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##Vote: sandroba Who's with me? Dunno really about the Foo shit, but this is just too much UPDATE: Okay, Foo is here, apparently kita was on a car ride. sandro is nowhere to be seen. I just can't accept this | ||
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Before people unvote Foo, state your thoughts on sandro first. Don't want vote shenanigans | ||
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BAAH BAAH BAAAH | ||
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On January 23 2014 07:51 Hapahauli wrote: @ Gonzaw You believe that Fool and Sandro are scum no? Why prefer one over the other, especially if they're suspicious for the same reasons (lack of thread presence, fabricated confidence, etc). Right now I'm not really in the state of mind to analyze Foolishness' actions regarding this lynch, and his association with sandro. It is entirely possible both are scum. ...but just look at sandro goddamit. Read my post above. This seems like a Risen type of mafia play or something. | ||
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On January 23 2014 07:51 Foolishness wrote: I don't even like the sandroba lynch lol Oh yeah why not? He's on your 4 guys likely to be scum right? Are you saying right now that you are FOR SURE sure that Prome, Holy and marv are scum? Do you think Holy is scum after that vote on me above? Why don't you vote sandro Foo vote sandro VOTE SANDRO | ||
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But right now I think Prome is town based on what was said and how he's doing stuff and how he wants to sheep me (obviously). Sandro PARKED HIS VOTE AND DISAPPEARED HE WAS AFK FOR LIKE THIRTY HOURS HE CHANGED HIS ATTITUDE SO RAPIDLY. If you ask me whether Foolishensss is scum or not with sandro, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe the Foo lynch is very very good to and I'd want to. But sandro's actions I think speak stronger. If FOo is scum he kind of got caught with his hesitance of a sandro lynch so much and being nonchalant or whatever | ||
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On January 23 2014 07:56 Foolishness wrote: There's no way this sandroba lynch is good. Also "Back. Caught up and also read Prome. Fine with a prome lynch." - Austin Wasn't he obvious town undisputed town king of the universe to you? At the very least, I use this heuristic: People posting, being active, and figuring things out right at the deadline are very very likely town. Those that don't, don't. I.e kita, VE, sandro. Don't look too good. Foo as well. austin, Prome and Hapa and marv look better. Etc. lets do this | ||
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This guy: On January 23 2014 03:13 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Foolishness You've got my sword gonzaw. Was here at deadline, didn't say a word, didn't commit to anything, ignored sandro, Prome, and parked his vote on Foo. VE, you going down | ||
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I don't see a realistic scenario where both are town nor both scum. Dear god my heart is pumping. Also Peñarol is losing FUCK YEAH EVERYTHING IS GOOD IN THE UNIVERSE | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:09 kitaman27 wrote: I think the biggest thing to consider is whether or not sandroba was the sacrificial lamb in an attempt to save Prom/Foolishness. sandro was no sacrificial lamb. He was a lurker scum who had to go "out" and "big" at the last minute, very very likely on a townie, to not get replaced and sought more chaos. Hapa, Prome, austin, marv. All likely town now. At least before I rethink the whole situation You don't look so good kita, specially if only ONE of VE/Foo are scum. Unless Holy is scum. But we'll see with his replacement. | ||
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Kita - VE - sandroba It's unfounded for now, but that's my "im so fucking pumped ill figure out the entire scumteam!" guess | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I'M certainly scum. Of course | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote: gonzaw you have lots of pretty good reasons and my absence to point at. Lots of things I've done make me scum, and I've been doing shit all since like ever You're getting me lynched, and you're certainly going to keep calling me scum for good and strong reasons. Whatever you say, mate | ||
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...actually if you are a Manchester United fan that might actually be true so disregard that lolololo | ||
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It's entirely possible marv bussed sandro, specially if he figured out Hapa and or Prome would change their votes to sandro anyway. But it did happen in the heat of the moment, if marv was scum that decision would have been made in instants, and he didn't seem nervous. It's stuff to take into account you know? Also Foo, if you end up being town.....damn you Foo; why would you do that? just go on the internet and act like scum? | ||
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Although you can't say this wasn't FUCKING AWESOME, can you? | ||
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I mean, you do remember Prome's "We policy lynch lurkers no matter what!" line at the beginning of the game, and he then not doing anything at all regarding sandro right? Oh god....oh god oh man oh god oh man :O O: ...lol. But other than that, I think we are on good tracks | ||
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Meh. Makes a nice conspiracy theory lol | ||
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Although, I think getting VE lynched comes before that. I just don't see VE as town here. He did absolutely nothing since his Prome "read". Just pressured Foo' a little bit, then did absolutely nothing. He randomly says "Holy/sandro/Foo are interesting guys", and then doesn't give a shit and flings his vote at any of those (not at sandro though coincidentally) without any reasoning whatsoever, and doesn't give a fuck about justifying himself even when I try to get it out of his tongue. Then he shows up at deadline, is there, but wastes his time posting some questions to Prome and doing shit all. Had his vote parked on Foolishness, did shit all with that. He even asked Prome about sandro being suspicious or something, yet he had vote on Foo'. Doesn't do any more shit until sandro flips, then comes here and posts ONLY to defend himself. Yeah...he dies tomorrow. I guess I can put some pretty colors and quotes later on. It'd be funny if the scum team is sandro - VE - Prome and they have been setting up this whole show lol I mean, Prome found VE scum initially with "shitty" reasons and the like, right? (when he ignored WoS, etc). Then VE found Prome suspicious initially right? They were the only 2 "going against each other" initially. Yet nothing came from that. VE then promptly forgets about Prome, yet somehow says he still has a scumread on him. Prome ignores VE as well. When deadline comes, VE ONLY talks to Prome about sandro. It's like he's setting stuff up, he even asks Prome: On January 23 2014 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh man and he comes in in the eleventh hour too. Unreal. Prome is sandroba scum for that meta thing? Is anyone scum to you? On January 23 2014 07:41 VisceraEyes wrote: What ranks him higher than sandroba who is A) a lurker and B) trying to get you lynched? Is it just the fact that he's set to be lynched? And look! Prome responds! On January 23 2014 07:44 Promethelax wrote: I find fool likelier scum than sand. Sand pulls this shit as town while fool hasn't done so in my experience. I wouldn't be unhappy with a sand list, it isn't my preference but I wouldn't hate it. Prome's vote is on Foo. VE's vote is on Foo. sandro has a very weak vote on Prome and disappeared off the face of the earth. Foo and Prome had the same amount of votes there (although Foo was leading). Prome then promptly tried to explain himself to Hapa so Hapa would unvote him and Foo would gain the most amount of votes! And well Foo later gained 6 votes to Prome's 3 votes Doesn't seem too good to be true!? Whenever sandro flips, Prome and VE look good for life! If Prome flips, VE and sandro look good too (VE for the initial "suspicions" on Prome, sandro for the vote) If VE flips, Prome looks good (for that initial push) I FOUND OUT YOUR SECRETS SCUM!!!! lol this is incredibly fun | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever just lynch me next, I'll help you guys decide who to lynch after me. okay | ||
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One thing that makes me feel better is this: On January 23 2014 06:43 Foolishness wrote: Initial response is no. If they are both town then who is mafia? Promethelax, HolyFlare, and like, VE I guess? That doesn't make sense as there is no other third to put in. WaveOfShadow's vote might be sketchy, but watch the people who hammer this (marvellosity and company). And yes I'm actually saying that now because it needs to be said in case you guys are that incapable of reading my posts. I tried setting up a trap for Foo here. Foo was VERY confident on lots of people being town, and VERY confident on Holy and Prome being scum. By cross referencing it with the player list, then from his POV, he basically only had 2 unknowns: marvellosity and sandroba. If he's town, he'd obviously know this and show it to me in his answers to my pressing question. If he's scum, I thought maybe he'd slip up and say something like "I dunno, yes, it's possible both are town" or some fluffy shit like that. The fact he didn't makes me feel a little bit better about him. Of course he can be scum fooling me bla bla bla, but he responded correctly in a quick and effective matter. Even if he was scum planning it maybe he'd figure out my trap and be more obvious about it, I dunno. Oh well. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:35 WaveofShadow wrote: The conclusion should read read one more scum on Foolishness OR Prome. I firmly believe(d) VE to be town and I know my own alignment but I'm setting it up for you guys. Please go see your nearest doctor | ||
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For example, VE and Foo just can't be scum together. I believe Prome and kita can't be scum together either (BOTH kita and sandro being on him and kita doing nothing, specially not jumping on the sandro wagon (when he already has a vote on another scumbuddy) doesn't make sense). We could cross other possible scumteams out, and maybe get somewhere. | ||
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I'm kind of gearing towards H/T being town. Specially with Holy's last vote. It seemed genuine (that a host would tell him to vote). Even more, it would be a good opportunity to vote Prome, or Foo, or some other guy right? But he obviously wasted it on me. If he's scum, seems like a waste opportunity. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:50 austinmcc wrote: (You were also really scummy on me, in part, because I was townie on foolish, and now you...it seems believe us both to be town? Or likely town. I'm more biased about that read, but lynching scum doesn't make all our other reads right  )Well, I may need to see a doctor too. On January 23 2014 09:50 WaveofShadow wrote: I could get in on this. Why can't VE/Foolishness be scum? Purely interaction-based? VE was semi-active in the thread at deadline, but didn't give a shit about Foo at that point. I'd think with their scumbuddy getting lynched on D1 with 4 votes at the time, he would. Instead, he asks some questions to Prome and promptly disappears. At that point Foo and Prome had 4 votes each....yeah seems unlikely he'd be so casual about it. Also, before that, VE brought up sandro, Holy and Foo, yet parked his vote on Foolishness. First he did so on Holy, then "sheeped" me when I asked people to vote Foolishness. However, later I vote Holy instead and yet he keeps his vote on Foo. This would be the perfect opportunity to either: sheep me again into Holy, or straight up unvoting Foo and maybe vote Prome who he apparently had a scumread on. Doesn't make sense to keep a totally unnecessary vote on his scumbuddy who is leading the lynch (Foo had like 3 votes at that point I believe or something, or just 2 I think). Also, VE had reasons to vote Prome (he was his "read"), and he even talked about Holy. Makes little sense for him to choose scumbuddy Foo out of those 3. Some of this may be WIFOM, but overall I think it just doesn't make sense for VE and Foo to be scum together | ||
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On January 23 2014 10:51 kitaman27 wrote: Doubt I'll be rereading tonight. Ask me tomorrow. Tomorrow? So, Sunderland won against Man United. Peñarol lost. Nacional won. We lynched scum on D1. I ate some fabulous pizza tonight. Life's good, man, life's good. | ||
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Then I look at Foo this game, and see some similarities in play and evolution of the play. I guess I won't completely rule Foo out. He was almost lynched yesterday anyways, let's see what pressure he gets now. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On January 23 2014 09:32 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright. Gonzaw is clean, likely austin as well because there isn't even any time in between those votes to discuss anything if austin were scum, and it really would be a horrible thing to do to your team if he were considering where the therad was at that time. Right around then, (page 42) Foolishness can be seen to be basically defending sandro. Again question becomes, is this scum blatantly defending a buddy here, or town pushing his own idea of what's good? Impossible to tell. Moving on, marv and hapa votes. There was enough time in between where gonzaw did his thing and the 3rd/4th votes popped on that either of my earlier scenarios could have taken place, especially if 2/3rds of the scumteam are around. Pure voting analysis with my 'speculation' in mind does not eliminate either of those two, however it does likely preclude them BOTH being scum because the only way that happens is if sandroba told them both to bus him immediately. Plausible, not likely (since it eliminates the lone 'indignant scum member' case). If that did in fact happen, we may very well be in trouble, but given the thread's (and my) townread on Hapa I don't think it's the case. Prome obviously cannot be eliminated either, and may in fact be most likely considering all that went down, and his considerable decline in posting quality right around the deadline. Conclusions: I believe one scum to be on the sandroba wagon---either marv/hapa OR Prome, and one more on Foolishness (or is Toad). I believe there can be only one way for that kind of coordination between the scum to happen, and that is if the WHOLE scumteam was on IRC at the same time paying very close attention to what is going on in the thread. I remember doing something like that in previous games. I think it was Themed Mafia (with marvy scumbuddy) we did something like that? The point is, either scum did that, or they did nothing (no communication at all). If you, as scum, are not on IRC, in 5 or so minutes you can't fully communicate via QT strategies and the like, you just can't (or even less, the time between the 1st 2 votes, and marv's, Hapa's and Prome's votes). So either all scum were on it almost the instant me and austin voted sandro, or none of them communicated at all. If none of them communicated at all, then I just have to say all of those are town. I don't think scum would take that chance (specially if BOTH Foo and Prome are town), without knowing what his buddies think etc. The only one I could see doing this is marv I guess. If scum did communicate instantly via IRC, then it could happen. They get instant feedback and strategy talk about what to do, most likely in some sort of panic, and then maybe Prome, marv or Hapa (as scum) sheep the sandro vote. Still, I think it may be too unlikely. Remember, it was still 4 votes to Foo and 2 to sandro at that point. If I was scum, I'd most likely say "Ehmm, let's just wait, Foo is still getting lynched" and not risk it. I'd even feign being afk or something for example. I also kind of changed my mind about Holy/Toad (again). I'm getting some clear stuff about the game in my mind, but I'd prefer to take it slowly from here on out. I won't be here on D2 likely so it's not like me getting all jiggly even matters. | ||
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On January 23 2014 16:28 VisceraEyes wrote: I was making dinner. I was interested, I just was frying fucking porkchops and that's labor intensive. Like, I don't know what else to say. I even asked you why you preferred Foolish over sandroba, you can't say I wasn't interested in the lynch. I just had other shit going on. And i was watching 2 football matches. So? Didnt stop me from doing shit at deadlune Ve, so you ask prome why he prefers a foo lynch over a sandro lynch...yet yor vote was on foo. That question you asked applies to you as well, why did you prefer lynching foo over sansro? Funny stuff, you badgering someone else about something before doing it yourself | ||
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If VE isn't scum, who is? Me, austin, marv, Hapa, Prome are more townie based on the shenannies Foo seemed to get better. That leaves WoS, kita, VE and Toad. Out of ALL of those....VE is the most suspicious by far. And if he isn't scum, then stuff makes way less sense On January 23 2014 23:18 Promethelax wrote: Gonzaw, buddy, shall we dance? There are 9 hours left in the night phase I think. You and I could catch entire scum team in that time. I'll get home in 1 hour and something. Will read filters and shit there more carefully, and we can dance yes. I prefer salsa and merengue myself. Or are you a waltz type of person? That's coo' too. | ||
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Could get interesting info about the players involved in that. Someone else analyze it please? I'm lazy. | ||
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I don't really get it On January 23 2014 07:28 Promethelax wrote: Yes I think holy is a good lynch. My good lynch list is: holy, fool, Kita, sand, Austin. Unfortunately none of them are making me jump out of my skin and scream: scum! They are all scummy to the point of being willing to lynch them. Right off the bat, after he votes you, you put him in your "to lynch" list, and call him scummy. You don't address his vote, but well maybe you hadn't noticed it by this point. On January 23 2014 07:35 Promethelax wrote: It's because I'm kinda confused. It is what sand is pulling out in my filter. In pyp I had to do something to move town in the right direction (and had 140 pages of thread to work with) and things popped out to me. I had sheep to lead and scum to find. Here no one has made me really hard for their lynch. Although sand bringing in meta from my strongest ever town game is a little funny, I wish I was that good all the time. This is were I'm not really getting it. You acknowledge sandro's vote and case, but you say nothing of sandro. You apparently imply his case is bad and you are confused by it and how sandro applied it (i.e using your strongest town game as a meta argument against you). That doesn't make you any suspicious of sandro? In that specific post, why acknowledge his case, but not acknowledge sandro? I.e you ignore him? On January 23 2014 07:38 Promethelax wrote: Because I misread it. I thought he was misunderstanding the holy sub out. But he was commenting on an offhand post about sand being force replaced. Is sand scum for his vote on me: sadly not, sand can be this bad as town. He is worth lynching as a total lurker who has done nothing but not for his vote on me. A town sand is perfectly capable of being bad. The instant sandro made that vote I instantly found it scummy as fuck. I don't really get how you can INSTANTLY say it comes from town sandroba, when you are the recipient of that case! Sandro's case was "bad", even according to you, right? He's a lurker that hadn't posted in 30 hours, comes 30 minutes before deadline with a random case against you. From your own POV, you don't find this fishy at all? Really? Specially with sandro doing nothing later? If there is any time in the history of mafia games where an OMGUS is justified, it would be here How on earth can you instantly disregard sandro and call him "bad town"? You didn't even try to think and figure him out? You just straight up ignore him and give him a random town read? Then you say he is "worth lynching as a total lurker who has done nothing". I don't get it. You want him lynched and find him scummy at first, then he makes the scummiest move on the game. You somehow instantly say he's bad town, and STILL want him lynched, but not for being scummy as fuck, but for being a lurker? Please guide me through this Prome it makes no sense. On January 23 2014 07:40 Promethelax wrote: No one is above a four. Sand is more 3.5 along with kita/holy. Fool is a four. Sandro is "bad town", yet is 3.5, You say this of Foo + Show Spoiler + I simply cannot connect the idea of foolishness being a good town player and him being town while saying things so blatantly false about so many players in this game. There is only 0.5 between "town" and "obvious scum"? Or what? Again, post your thought process at the time please | ||
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kita makes that "joke-serious" post on sandro here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=12#223 That alone doesn't really tell me much about kita though. Later, he keeps doing the "sandro is a good lynch vote him!" stuff, which could be odd if his sandro's buddy. But then he drops it so it's not really alignment indicative. Hmm, although it puts him in a more townie light. For example with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#268 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#270 Kita's vote on sandro do seem to have a purpose, which is consistent with his posts up there. It is a discussion starter, it does pressure the lurker, etc. I don't find it likely scum kita would start his "game" at the coast of sandro like that. Not strong evidence, but my gut says it makes sense as town kita. Also, in a wifomy way, I think this makes Hapa very likely town (more than he is now): On January 21 2014 09:39 Hapahauli wrote: Normally, even early-game troll votes have some pretense to find someone suspicious/mafia (even if stretched alot). This post doesn't follow. It doesn't call Sandroba scum in any joking/trolling way. You're just calling his actions dumb, then voting for them. Which is a pretty scummy thought process. How are you constructing Sandroba's post to be scummy as opposed to just stupid? If you are scum, and your scumbuddy makes an "awful" first post someone votes him for....do you really chainsaw defend him in such an OBVIOUS manner? Hapa keeps up with this too, going against kita. It feels genuine. Also this: On January 21 2014 11:18 Hapahauli wrote: I don't understand your reasoning here. What does him being a "slow-starter" have to do with not wanting to vote for him? For example, wouldn't it be arguably good to put pressure on him early to determine his alignment? He even plays devil's advocate when someone defends sandro. He didn't hesitate to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see him doing this being scumbuddies with sandro at all. Of course, there's the rest of his play, but this I think basically convinces me to never lynch Hapa in this game. So, this is our foundation so far gonzaw austin Hapa These 3 are untouchables, remove them from any scumlist, or any "possible" scum list (at least until one of them does something utterly stupid or something). marvy marv is not untouchable yet. But to touch him, you have to do it softly and gently. | ||
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On January 24 2014 01:36 Promethelax wrote: My 5 point scale puts 3 as null sand was on the scum side of null. I didn't find it totally impossible that town sand would come out with an ass backwards awful case on me. Syllo did the same thing in chronotrigger and the two of them are one person in my mind. He was never town in my head but he was scummy for lurking not for anything in particular. I don't think you know how to read though buddy. When I said that sandro was capable of bad play as town I meant he was capable of bad play as town not that he was, in this case, bad town. He deserved a lynch for being a lurker not for posting a bad case. Is sand scum for his vote on me: sadly not, sand can be this bad as town You just called him town there. Not scum = town. Or are you going with that weird "if he is scum, then the reason for him being scum is not his vote on me" reasoning there? If it's the latter it was worded badly | ||
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It still seems a little bit strange. I'd have OMGUSed the shit out of sandro. | ||
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On January 24 2014 01:56 marvellosity wrote: Why would mafia-Prome be less likely to than town-Prome?? Well, in my conspiracy theory, the Prome vs sandro thing was premeditated, where sandro "weakly" pushes Prome for the credz, while Prome disregards sandro (to not get sandro lynched). OMGUSing sandro would put the attention on 2 scum, and maybe put the lynch on either of those 2 unnecessarily, while by having Prome being weird regarding sandro, Foo would still get all the attention. | ||
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Maybe he's SK!!!? :O | ||
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On January 24 2014 02:06 marvellosity wrote: So what happens, right, is that it's kita/prome/sand sand knows that he's the liability so he's planning on getting lynched day 1 and making his team-mates look good for it. So kita votes him early so he has that nice early vote and makes sarcastic comments about how sandroba usually just afks. but kita can't vote for sand in the end because kita needs credz for later when Prome maybe flips, so kita votes for Prome so that kita and Prome are well distanced. Now Prome doesn't omgus sand because he's playing the "sand can be bad as town card" for cheesecake credit, but in the end joins in the shenannies at the last minute to look good, after sand comes in with a case on Prome so that sand is making a case on Prome who ends up voting for both kita and sand through the day and kita votes for both of them too but has his vote on Prome at the end so there's this massive big circle where none of them can be mafia but they are actually mafia because that's clearly what's going on. You forgot the part where Foolishness is a traitor and this is bastard game. | ||
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On January 24 2014 02:09 marvellosity wrote: I'm very much the other way around. Hmm, actually I dunno. I don't want to think about it, makes my head hurt | ||
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Does someone here think VE is NOT scum? Raise your hands please. | ||
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On January 24 2014 02:42 Promethelax wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 21 2014 13:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I think if he's town he's biased and it's bullshit to be so biased already, but whatever. It makes him more likely to be scum to me, but no, I'm reading him as town presently. So this post happened. VE thinks I am biased and that makes me more likely to be scum. And yet, for no reason, I am town to him. Hapa said he thought this was indicative of a townie who was bothered at being accused for something that didn't make him scum but I see it as just as likely to come from a scum mad at a townie calling him scum for a reason that he feels could be equally applied to a town player. I think he said that about Hapa, not you Prome | ||
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1) Prome read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=15#293 FoSes Prome and goes with it in "crazy VE" way http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#357 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=19#376 Clear attempts to back away from Prome. The overall gist of both posts is "Well, he could do this as town". That's backing out mentality. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=26#504 Inexplicably, he still has a scum read on Prome. He spent 12 posts posting irrelevant bullshit without mentioning Prome once, again considering he backed out of him. Makes no sense. 2) Not giving a single flying platypus fuck about the lynch This: On January 23 2014 02:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know man, the catchup posts seemed disingenuous, but I'm afraid I'm biased. Based on the posts I'm more willing to admit that I could be wrong about Prome, and yes the alternatives are looking better. The thing about Prome is that there's no POP to his posts - when he's town, when he thinks he's found something suspicious something clicks and his confidence shoots up and you can see it in his posts. I didn't get that feeling when he was posting about you. But again, I'm not sure how much of it is my own bias speaking. Foolishness/Sandroba/HolyFlare are three targets who are, in my opinion, well equipped to prove their worth D1 if they're town. That none of them has been able to do this is troubling to me. On January 23 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: HolyFlare Come make me move it bro. On January 23 2014 03:13 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Foolishness You've got my sword gonzaw. On January 23 2014 03:15 gonzaw wrote: I don't just want your vote (and sword), I want your reasonings and shit. Your play is oddly underwhelming right now. On January 23 2014 03:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I can't help it. Circumstances are what they are. And you don't want my reason, it's bad. The bolded is his only reasoning for voting any of Foo, sandro or Holy (other than just finding something "off" about Foo before http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=26#520 ). Then he doesn't give a shit about his vote, and switches his vote from Holy to Foo without stating why he's voting them at all. The bolded explanation is not reason enough to think someone is worth a lynch, and if VE says it is, he's claiming scum. Also check those last 2 posts. He straight up won't say why he's voting Foolishness. Need I remind you Foolishness was his vote the entire day? His lynch vote is random, and he explicitly refused to justify it. 3)Not doing shit VE did not do shit. VE did not give a shit about what was happening in the thread either. For example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=31#620 Holy makes the infamous "I'm subbing out" speech. Immediately after that, VE straight up does that voting shit from before. Holy was one of those 3 he mentioned. Holy was his current vote. The guy he's voting subs out and VE doesn't give a shit about it. Apparently it's such a lesser event it's beneath the mighty VE. 4)This This: Foolishness/Sandroba/HolyFlare are three targets who are, in my opinion, well equipped to prove their worth D1 if they're town. That none of them has been able to do this is troubling to me. On January 23 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: HolyFlare Come make me move it bro. On January 23 2014 03:13 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Foolishness Let's see if you notice what's missing. 5) Near-deadline behaviour Too lazy to do this. Read Prome's case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=51#1002 | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I'M certainly not scum. On January 23 2014 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote: gonzaw you have nothing but feels and my absence to point at. Nothing I've done makes me scum, and I've been doing what I can when I can. You're not getting me lynched, and you're certainly not going to keep calling me scum for no reason. On January 23 2014 09:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever just lynch me next, I'll help you guys decide who to lynch after me. On January 23 2014 09:18 VisceraEyes wrote: Whichever one looks the worse of Prom/Foolish is where I'm at now, I'm going to reread the thread when I wake up tomorrow. On January 23 2014 16:28 VisceraEyes wrote: I was making dinner. I was interested, I just was frying fucking porkchops and that's labor intensive. Like, I don't know what else to say. I even asked you why you preferred Foolish over sandroba, you can't say I wasn't interested in the lynch. I just had other shit going on. Lack of reaction to a D1 scum lynch? Check Spends time defending himself without justifications? Check "Quits" in an explosion of apathy? Check Unsatisfying excuse for being inactive at deadline? Check On January 24 2014 03:27 VisceraEyes wrote: gonzaw dude...you're wasting SERIOUS time on me bro. Everyone is WELL AWARE how you feel and what you think. MOST everyone seems to agree with you. Give it a rest man. EVEN IF I'm scum, there's one more besides me. I just suggest you not look into associations. You're gonna be REAL sad bro. I'll be dead tonight, so I just can't help to think that I really need to push this point across. As for that other scum besides you, I'll wait until Toad starts posting to get any significant conclusion about that. If Toad doesn't post before deadline, and I end up dead tonight, would you guys be nice little sweethearts and tell Toad "Fuck you Toad" for me? Thanks. | ||
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On January 24 2014 03:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Does no one find it odd how Kita quit doing that Combinatronics thing really fast? Like, he also never mentions it again after that one post. If he's town and had some crazy idea about how to find scum, enough to make a huge-ass post about it, would he not like...try it out? At least a little? Well, the idea was retarded so it'd actually be worse if he kept with it Sorry kita but it's true, at least the way you implemented it (democratic vote or whatever shit). | ||
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In this game my primary 2 scum suspects for now are VE and Toad. But then I read your sig, VE, about TL Mafia LI, where you and Toad were scum. Huh, what a coincidence. NEVER FORGET | ||
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Until you do, I'll gladly joke at your expense | ||
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But pff, what do I know about playing mafia, right? | ||
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Is there any reason we should consider a Foolishness/Sandroba/Promethelax scumteam? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=39#768 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=39#775 If you expect me to believe these 3 guys are scum together doing this kind of dumb shit on D1, then you need to have STRONG evidence, other than just assuming they are scum and rolling on with the story. I'm wondering why you are even considering this. It's the same like that "Prome+kita+sandro scumteam" joke marv did, except you are actually being serious On January 24 2014 04:48 VisceraEyes wrote: So imagine that inactive Prom and inactive sand ARE both scum. What does scumFoolish do? He busses one of them. Last Prome post early D1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=17#321 TL Time: January 21 2014 22:42 Foo "bussing" Prome: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=23#447 TL Time: January 22 2014 07:19 Apparently just 8-9 hours are enough for scum Foo to say "fuck this inactive scumteam and this inactive Prome let's bus the fuck out of him"? You'd know this if you...read the thread Stop responding and start reading. Thread. Read. | ||
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On January 24 2014 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, let me rephrase what I said earlier. If I were around, I would have switched to EITHER Prom OR sand. But Foolish was on Prom and felt like he was manipulating me so I was hesitating and then I got caught up and never made it back to the thread. But I would have joined in on the shenannies in some form is my point - anyone who has played with me should know that. I guess we just have to take your word on that? | ||
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On January 24 2014 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote: If I were around, I would have switched to EITHER Prom OR sand. Show me where this is explicit Even if this was true, don't see how it makes you town. But I would have joined in on the shenannies in some form is my point - anyone who has played with me should know that. Again, show me where this is explicit. You haven't posted a single REAL reason for Prome or Foo to be scum yet VE. The last thing I remember you posting about Prome is "Ehmm I'm not sure about that stream of posts he made, they seem disingenuous". The last thing I remember you posting about Foolishness is.....well, nothing, because you posted nothing: On January 22 2014 10:12 VisceraEyes wrote: Here's something that I still find off about Foolish's reentry post. This is where he explains his super townread of me right? But look at the bolded bit. He's criticizing me asking marv about my Prom post and the part where I share my observation about our interaction, but says that the TOWNIE bit is the last two sentences, the "fluffy" angry nonsense at the end. Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. He thinks I'm town, presumably he knows that I share at least Promethelax as a scumread, but he tries to lightly discredit me while calling me townie? And after the entire post, I STILL don't know if he actually READ my post on Promethelax. Something doesn't add up. I'm missing something, somewhere. On January 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, if he'd provided some context with it that would be one thing. "It looks forced, as if he didn't have anything to say but felt like he had to say something" or "It looks out of place, as if he remembered he hadn't mentioned X and just threw it in there because he was expected to" or something like that. But just saying those words is pretty silly, especially when you're talking about one of your strongest townreads, you know? Die please | ||
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I guess I have to read Foo's wall of text now.....at some time......maybe | ||
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Although meh fuck it I guess it doesn't hurt to consider those 4 "confirmed town", at least by the time D2 arrives. About WOS: Well, I am the "direct" responsible for WOS's vote on D1, so I dunno if I can get anything meaningful out of it. Had I said "Vote sandro" he could have parked his vote on sandro. Then your story would be different Foo. I guess it's just something I'll likely ignore for now regarding WOS. For example: Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Couldn't you say this exact same thing about Prome's vote on sandro? Doesn't really think he's scum, but under pressure sheeps gonzaw into voting him. Couldn't WOS do the same thing? Not really think Foolishness is scum, but under pressure (he was apparently in a rush to leave), sheep gonzaw into voting him. The situations are so similar, that I don't know if I can critique one of them (WOS) without critiquing the other one (Prome). (of course not 100% similar, one was 5 minutes before lynch, but in the sense that I mentioned above they are kind of similar) | ||
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70 hours too late, but still... | ||
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That's scum suicide basically, unless he can be so sure he can win in that 5-people standoff. And I mean, by "has every right in the world to keep tunneling them", I mean in the sense of what VE is doing here attacking Prome. I.e basically ignoring the fact Prome fluently participated in sandro's last-minute lynch and trying to nitpick other stuff and coming up with complex scenarios he's scum, etc. Scum Foo would be all over that shit with both Prome and marv. Specially with marv. I'll just assume he's town for now until we misslynch someone. | ||
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On January 24 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Right, and what I'm trying to say is that the timing does matter here. Sheeping a read with 10 minutes left in the day makes more sense because you're in a high pressure situation. I don't think WoS was in a high pressure situation even if he had to leave. Why not just vote for who he thinks is most scummy even if it's not Promethelax or myself? Would it seem odd to you if instead his last post was, "Foolishness lynch doesn't seem right, case on Promethelax is weak, I'm voting *insert random other player here* because he's not contributing, not active as usual, saying silly things, whatever"? No, that wouldn't be odd cause that would be a townie's mindset. I'd have to go back and reread his filter to be sure, but from what I remember it seems like he was contributing a lot to the current lynch suspects but never bringing up suspects of his own. Hmm, well Foo, I guess that may be a valid point you bring up, but it's not convincing, at least to me. Sure doesn't hurt to read his filter again, and hopefully get him to contribute over here (where he hasn't much since D1 ended). I just think that specific thing isn't alignment-indicative. I've been in a similar situation before, swapping my vote between random dudes I didn't know if I wanted to lynch or not because I had to go somewhere else in 1 minute and wouldn't be back until deadline. For instance, here, from Aperture Mafia 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174&user=gonzaw , particularly this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=11#214 . I got called scum for it later in the game as well (I think). Time pressure can make you do scummy things. Although perhaps his read on you kind of seemed weird. He did say "I feel comfortable leaving my vote here" before voting you, when it isn't really apparent how that comfort appeared. On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote: If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior. Well, austin, marv, Prome and Hapa aren't scum. So definitely your scumbuddy would be in the Toad, Kita, VE, WOS pool. If you are scum, then yes, under those premises you just commited scum suicide. If you were scum, you'd act all aggressive scum Foo like you do and go all out against marv or even Prome. You'd ignore their sandro vote calling it "not alignment indicative, could be a bus" or some stuff, and keep pilling onto them. And you would certainly not be so fucking calm like you are right now. Anyways, so here's my proposal guys: gonzaw marv Hapa austin Prome Foolishness These guys are untouchable for now. They only become touchable if we misslynch someone. If we keep lynching scum, then they keep being untouchable. If we do misslynch someone, it is proof we were wrong, thus we reconsider those guys (Foo in particular). But until then, talking shit about them and stuff will only clutter up the thread when we have other suspicious dudes to focus on. Do people agree (bar VE)? Can simplify things a lot. We could discuss leaving Foo in it or out of it if you want, but at least the other 5 do go. | ||
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Conspicuously absent is Holy, now hypnotoad a.k.a Toad, from his ramblings. | ||
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I completely ignored it in one post, yet you keep babbling and babbling about it. On January 24 2014 05:48 VisceraEyes wrote: And it's just something I'm considering. All I know for sure is that I'm town and I THINK Prom scum. I could be convinced that scum actually wanted Foolishness lynched and abandoned ship. This phrase is weird as fuck as well. "All I know for sure is that I'm town and I THINK Prom scum", for what purpose do you post this? Seems so out of place. "I could be convinced that scum actually wanted Foo lynched and abandoned ship". You "could be convinced". Again so out of place. You want us to convince you scum wanted Foo lynch? Well, I can convince you Foo is town. You can just read those posts I made above which you keep ignoring (you seem to keep ignoring Foo's posts this N1). This attempt of yours seems "too obvious" VE. But I guess I'll just have to assume it's a last attempt at misdirection and getting us to argue with you and stuff. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:08 kitaman27 wrote: Maybe come back a bit later with a focus on who you would lynch, rather than defending yourself? Even if you can't avoid a lynch, if you flip green I'd think people would still look back and see who you made cases on. If VE is town, then yes this is absolutely what he must do. But VE, you MUST stop talking about that insane conspiracy theory of yours. You won't gain any friends by still talking about it and not addressing very important issues regarding the actual players you think are scum (Prome with his sandro vote, Foo with stuff lots of people have said, including me and kita above). | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:15 kitaman27 wrote: I probably wouldn't include the pair in the day 2 lynch discussion, but do you think Foolishness/austin is a viable pair or is there something that would eliminate these two as a team that makes sense? I read your post, and under extreme weirdly specific WTF circumstances, it is possible. It just is a conspiracy theory though, and it "obviously" seems to be wrong. But I'm paranoid as hell. Anyways, even in that case, follow my plan. In a Foolishness/sandroba/austin scumteam, Toad, VE, etc are town (who are most likely getting lynched tomorrow). Therefore we would misslynch tomorrow, and THEN we would say "Fuck we are wrong", and maybe, depending on Foo and austin's actions on D2, reconsider that possible pair. ...or is there something that would eliminate these two as a team that makes sense? Well, their play would eliminate that as a team that makes sense. austin not straight up voting Prome and ever sheeping me on sandro as well (which is what he would most likely have done in a Foo-sandro-austin scum situation). Just not worth even considering right now. If we are in LYLO or something else comes up be my guest. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:19 Promethelax wrote: Does anyone disagree with next lynch being between those three players? If so who should it be between and why? I have a decent reason for everyone else to be town those three not so much. I agree. Lynch VE first, then Toad. Doubt you'll need to lynch WOS. But, if you lynch VE, then Toad, and the game is still going on, then something seems to be wrong, so reconsider a lot of stuff instead of straight up insta-lynching WOS. | ||
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Although I can't help to think he's just good scum who can come up with good fake reasons like that. Holy spent 70% of his posts defending himself and posting excuses for not contributing (which were "I'm defending myself"). If I have to blindly choose between that guy, and a guy who at least seems to be trying (WOS) then I choose to lynch that guy. I'm not too fond of Toads "I won't post ANYTHING until I've read the thread" thing, because it most likely means he won't post anything at all until D2 comes and it'll be a pre-fabricated post with maybe pointless reads and fluffy shit and a vote and we'll have zero chance of getting a read out of him based on that. It would have been way way more helpful if he had just done a Prome and started maybe posting some shit while catching up with the thread. A simple "So, who was lynched on D1? Scum? FUCK YEAH!" would have helped. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:26 Toadesstern wrote: Anything you want to talk about in specific? I'm not going to ramble or hypnotoad this game if you're looking forward (?) to that. Kind of got myself lynched as town (like actively, not passivly...) in the last game I played on d1 because I couldn't stand talking to rayn anymore and he kept tunneling everyone no matter what... so main goal right now is to make sure that doesn't happen again. Yes. If you should read anything at all and pay attention to, is the lynch deadline and how it unfolded. Let's see, hmm... How about start reading from here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=38 And up to here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=44 Just 7 pages. All the juicy stuff starts there (basically with marv voting sandro, and sandro coming to vote Prome). Also, read these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=46#914 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=56#1106 After you've done so, tell us what you conclude; if you agree with Foo's and kita's posts, or not, etc. About VE, about Hapa, and those guys you are now "weird" on. Should be the fastest way to get something out of you before one of us dies tonight and D2 starts. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:44 WaveofShadow wrote: Troof. I slipped cuz I am most obvious D1 lynch. More slipping below: Gonzaw, I won't get a chance to talk to you it seems before you die, but GG. I may have to fight the posthumous incoming tunnel on VE that inevitably comes tomorrow, so don't yell at me too much from obs QT, k? I will yell at everybody from Obs QT That's what I do | ||
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Wouldn't that be funny? Very very funny *wink* *wink* | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:44 austinmcc wrote: I still don't think Toad nee Holy is mafia. Gonzaw, read that post about picking your brainz. The leadup to it and then the post. You see that set of posts coming from a mafia member? Ehmm..I dunno? Like, I guess I could see it come from a mafia member. Is it because it says "brainz" and not "brain"? I don't really want to put too much emphasis on that thing. I've passed scum as town because of that type of posts before; if I don't believe it comes from town 100% or my gut tells it to, then I'm wary to straight up ignore Holy/Toad because of it. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:52 WaveofShadow wrote: Like, if the lynch is supposedly between me/VE/Toad today and I just so happen to find them both town when I do my reads (theoretically), then I can't be expected not to push one of the so-called 'untouchables.' kita is not untouchable You have my permission to touch kita all you want | ||
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....well...you did before (and it baffled me then).. ....ehmm..just read more carefully okay? | ||
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I don't particularly feel him wanting me to respond as hard as you do. I forgot about him wanting to put attention off Foo and into sandro, and him somewhat defending Foo. Considering the now changed reads (sandro scum, Foo likely town), that can take a new meaning. He just didn't focus on the "Foo or sandro who do you lynch?" aspect too much. He fleetingly mentioned sandro there, he focuses most of his time with me (and Foo by extension). Everything he says revolves around me, even that "brainz" post. His mentions of sandro...feel more weak because of that...? Argh. Shitty that Holy isn't here to respond and stuff. On January 24 2014 07:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Resolution period has started. Mafia may no longer change their shot. One hour until the daypost. Goddamit I forgot to sen....hmm, I think scum may try something weird tonight. Who knows! | ||
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On January 24 2014 07:06 Toadesstern wrote: well in that case, read up to the lynch. What was the question gonzaw? :D Ehmm...who is scum? That seems to be a good question. | ||
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gonzaw
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Right now, I'm here: VE scum One of Toad/WOS scum. If you say Toad is town, then WOS is scum? That'd be from my POV. From your POV, how do you view it? Do you view it the same, and thus now think WOS is scum? If not...then kita? Or maybe you are torn between kita/WOS? Or something? | ||
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gonzaw
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Anything in particular that made you drop VE down a few places in your reads? | ||
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Gotta admit I didn't reread his filter. But meh what do I care, night ends in a few minutes. If he's scum he just fucked himself. Don't want to believe scum Foo would play so poorly as scum, while at the same time playing so good (by making townie posts that make sense bla bla bla). Kind of the opposite of what I'd expect scum Foo to be, play good scum, while not playing good. Or something. On January 24 2014 07:36 austinmcc wrote: . I've been laughing this whole time because if this were around a year ago, everyone would be saying "GONZAW WAS SCUM IN LIAR GAME AND LOOKED TOWNIE AND POSTED A LOT AND HE'S DOING THAT HERE SO HE'S MAFIA AGAIN." Ah...memories... | ||
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On January 24 2014 07:46 Promethelax wrote: I think terrible posts followed by good posts is a townie thing from foolish more than a scummy thing. No lie his early posting looked horrible and even worse with a Sand flip but he knows that and looks at the thread and figures he can push through on logic and big posts? I see a scum foolish just lurking himself to death there. It would be a depressing place to be as a scummer. It is one reason I like VE (okay, the only reason I like VE) he has been in the thread and actively talking with us all even if his discussion hasn't been all that productive I see him being more depressed if he is scum. Not that that is a solid reason for a read but it is something I've been keeping in mind. He was somewhat angry right after sandro died. Also, dunno about you, but I see this as being somewhat depressed: On January 24 2014 05:14 VisceraEyes wrote: Well please stop gonzaw, it's literally ruining my game experience. I have no incentive to try and prove my towniness in this kind of environment. On January 24 2014 05:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Do you understand? I want to quit the game because of how you are treating me right now. On January 24 2014 06:04 VisceraEyes wrote: It's fine, I'm done with this game. Honestly people are too tunneled in and there's literally nothing I can do. When I try and participate it is shat on, when I try and have conversations with people it's scum claiming, I have literally no will left to play this game. Sorry austin, you didn't make it. | ||
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If he comes, calms down, makes some sense....then he's still likely scum lynch, but less so. That's town's call then. Regarding Toad: meh. D2 is his trial of fire as well (trial of...wind?). WoS's "wonky" posts lately seem to weird me out, it's like he's going crazy or something. I cba to reread his filter again, but he's worth pressuring. | ||
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Also...hold me austin, I'm scared ;_; | ||
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On January 23 2014 11:58 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, I just remembered how scum Grey/iGrok tended to post in MTG Mini Mafia 2, where they started making "sense" and shit like in D3 or something, but were scummy/lurking/not making sense in early days (and then of course I almost fuck things up by lynching everybody but them). Then I look at Foo this game, and see some similarities in play and evolution of the play. I guess I won't completely rule Foo out. He was almost lynched yesterday anyways, let's see what pressure he gets now. This might be something similar to what you are looking austin, perhaps. I remember Grey/iGrok doing something similar as scum: Start with god awful posts, but have some good posts by D2-D3.. ...dunno how that's relevant, but I saw a hint of that with Foo's play. Perhaps somehow you are not that wrong. But still, there is all od D2 ahead of us (you) | ||
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BOOM | ||
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see you in heaven sweet prince | ||
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Hey VE, maybe you are not such a straight D2 lynch after all (just slightly less) | ||
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On January 24 2014 08:06 austinmcc wrote: gg hapa. I'm going to dinner in a sec, but my D2 wishlist currently reads: (1) Get more discussion on Foolishness. Specifically about his D1, then about his play as a whole. I'd like to talk to Foolishness as well, but I will settle for discussion ABOUT him, from more people. (2) Chat with VE. Attempt to keep people from just calling him scum for 60 hours. (3) Chat with marv. About Foolishness/sandro and generally (4) Chat with Kitaman, and get others to talk ABOUT kitaman. A couple posts have mentioned him looking a little worse from the sandro flip (i think?). He has posted some. But overall, just half-following and reading through thread, I don't have a strong sense of him doing stuff recently. That could be entirely wrong, but he's too under the radar for my liking, and I think his alignment and his filter make a good topic of discussion for today. Either we start pressuring him, or he's town and he gets active and gives some good posts, it's a win win to talk about kita more. (5) Actually talk to WoS instead of the aborted chat we had yesterday. (6) Other stuff? I'm playing VERY thread cop this game. It looks like I'm going to continue that way. Sorry if it's annoying, within my head it's a helpful thing as long as I'm not just pooh poohing stuff and not coming up with other things to do or participating heavily myself. (7) Watch and interact with Toad, and see what he contributes this day | ||
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On January 24 2014 08:13 WaveofShadow wrote: Wifom and unsubstanntiated for now but this may be why hapa instead of you (if VE is actually town) Its what I didn't post earlier with all caps. Sorry for more spoeculative shit I promise ill tone it down for wjhen I'm back Eta 4 hours Well, maybe it was to instill WIFOM into town. Or maybe I'm just too sexy to die Or maybe my jokes are so funny they can't wait until Postgame to hear more from me if they kill me. Or likely that all my reads are wrong and I'm cluttering shit up I guess (that usually seems to be the main reason in other games). Perhaps I need to do another near-deadline shenannies to get their attention. | ||
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Would you mind us helping us with this Foolishness conundrum we seem to have? | ||
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On January 24 2014 08:22 Toadesstern wrote: well I'm missing out on some 10 or so pages inbetween but yeah I guess. I don't really see a conundrum on Foolishness to be honest. I'd rather lynch into one of you five guys than Foolish atm. I really do not think he'd behave the way he did before deadline if he knew Sandro was mafia so either he played withough knowing his alignment or he's just town. ...wat | ||
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And doesn't make much sense, you prefer lynching any of the guys leading a last minute unexpected lynch on scum, rather than Foo? | ||
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On January 24 2014 10:06 austinmcc wrote: Not much. It's night, we lynched scum, and we lynched scum in a way that would throw off some of the reads he had on the game as a whole. An updated big reads list before the night ends? Maybe. An updated big reads list in general that isn't heavily heavily heavily based on votes? Maybe. I'll admit, no great answer there. I think it's much easier in this case than you're making it seem? Because he's not painting his filter as townie. He's painting a picture with just the VOTES with him as town. He doesn't have to justify past comments, doesn't have to show why he legitimately thought prome was scum when prome looks townier after the flip, all he has to do is take the votes he's been given and weave them in such a way that him being town presents a couple suspects. I dunno, I pretty much only seem to make extendedly long posts, so I'm not the best judge here. But I find there to be a distinction between a long post assuming you're town and giving all these reads, and a long post in which you set the votes in such a way that you're town and a couple people shake out suspicious. I actually got the impression he used it to "prove" all sandro voters were town. From what I remember, he was the first one to really make a "heavy" analysis of the votes, and determine if there was mafia or town motivation behind them. I.e he was the first one to "prove" 5 townies. He didn't really present a couple of suspects, if not just by process of elimination (those that are not the 5 townies he "confirmed"). It just seems....wrong him being scum, I dunno. Like, he immediately said "this doesn't change anything about my Prome read" as soon as sandro got lynched. However, after fiddling with the votes he basically proves Prome's innocence. Why the fuck do that? Either you keep tunneling Prome, or you mention you think he's town from the get go. Why, as scum, still accuse him, but after that vote analysis change your mind? Argg.....his D1 posts are indeed a mess though (for the most part). Anyways...LOL. We kind of reversed our positions from D1, now you are the one relentlessly going against Foo, and I'm the one defending him. WHAT A CRAZY WORLD. I'll reread his filter again and shit after getting home tomorrow. Hopefully VE, Toad, WoS, kita, have more thread participation by then. | ||
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WTF IS WRONG WITH ME HELP ME | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:08 Foolishness wrote: Hasn't changed a thing. I'm pretty sure his vote didn't mean anything, still looking it over to be sure. On January 23 2014 08:27 Foolishness wrote: That's why I said that the sandroba lynch wasn't good. Vote count: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#820 At this vote count: Foolishness: 6 Promethelax: 3 Then gonzaw and Austin both vote sandroba. Then Marvellosity votes sandroba. Foolishness: 4 Promethelax: 3 sandroba: 3 Then Hapahauli votes for sandroba Foolishness: 3 Promethelax: 3 sandroba: 4 Then Promethelax votes for sandroba Foolishness: 2 Promethelax: 3 sandroba: 5 Technically Hapahauli had the hammer. But Promethelax voted 1 minute after Hapa did. So yes, Promethelax's vote did not count in the grand scheme of things. Considering that his vote was only a minute after Hapa, he might as well be considered a hammer vote as well. On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote: I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events. Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#820 The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli. Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later. At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen. Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3. Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after. It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point. Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down. What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1. Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case. So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it. | ||
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It just blows my mind. Like...like oadoawjawawlkmdalñkjnmwdw,... ....sorry, I just had an aneurism trying to think about this game, no worries. | ||
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Weird if he's town (like...try to prevent your own lynch dude wtf), but much weirder if he's scum, UNLESS it's some preplanned scum bullshit bus where Foo takes the fall D1 for some reason or some shit. | ||
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For instance: On January 23 2014 07:46 Foolishness wrote: Or there's a very simple explanation to what's going on here. I don't like the sandroba thing any more than you do I assure you. But he did his research. It was 15 minutes before deadline, and you were leading the votecount 6 to 3. Yet you so casually talk about sandro and his "research" or whatever. Don't you care at all that you are getting lynched in 15 frigging minutes? Like some said, isn't it your "meta" to not get lynched as town? | ||
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On January 24 2014 11:19 austinmcc wrote: Side note, just putting this in thread while trying to chart stuff out. IF Foolishness is mafia, then mafia Foolishness and mafia Sandroba were both pushing unknown alignment Promethelax yesterday. That combo means very very very very very very very very very likely that Promethelax is town. That also means that the ONLY people voting not-mafia on D1 were Kitaman and HF. Foolishness alignment unknown. Votes not perfectly telling, but WoS and VE both on Foolishness, and if he were mafia and actually looking like he might be lynched, I would expect not just a Foolish push towards votes on Prome, but a vote swap from the other mafia onto Prome. So the possibilities of the third player in a Foolishness/Sandroba/x team really get chopped down and, to me, look like they consist only of Kita. Hmm, there is indeed that "Only 1 of VE/Foo is scum, not both" thing I mentioned and everybody ignored last cycle.. ..and VE doesn't really look too good ya know? (greatest understatement of the year). Also, you are missing Holy/Toad from there. Kita OR Toad make sense as Foo scumbuddies. Someone said last cycle that it would make sense for Holy to "waste" his vote nevertheless (and not vote Foo/Prome/etc), so as to not put his replacement in such a bad spot. If Foo is scum, it is possible scumteam told Holy to play it safe. Out of sandro, Foo, and Holy's replacement, it's the replacement that has the most chances of surviving end-game this game as scum. | ||
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On January 24 2014 11:46 austinmcc wrote: Sure, funky on both accounts, but then that doesn't get us anywhere. I don't think it's weirder for scum, scum have more control over the lynch because they can work in concert, so regardless of what the plan is, you can actually have a plan in place to hopefully not have yourself get lynched. And while prome only had 3 votes, I had been clear that I wanted prome/sandro over foolishness, and, as things were shaping up, I was going to need to vote prome to hope to have any effect on the lynch. That makes it like...6/4/1 or whatever, meaning another two swaps and everything groovy, and you could guarantee one if any of the Foolishness voters were also scum. I think....I think I should stop going this route and just stick to HEY EVERYBODY HERE'S SOME WEIRD STUFF TALK ABOUT IT. Doesn't make sense scum think they have the control of the lynch when one of their own has 6 votes against him 8 minutes before the day ends. The only plan to save himself from lynch like that....is vote shenannigans. I doubt Foo would think anybody would do vote shennanies on a townie (i.e not on sandro of course). Again, remember this stuff happened all 15-10 minutes before deadline. Anyways, I guess both of us can rationalize anything by now, so maybe this kind of discussion is pointless. ...and you could guarantee one if any of the Foolishness voters were also scum. Not if you just said the only possible 3rd scummy that makes sense is kita. | ||
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Anyways yeah let's stop. | ||
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You don't have to show that sandro's vote makes sense if you are town, you have to show that sandro's vote DOESNT make sense if you are scum. | ||
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On January 24 2014 12:46 WaveofShadow wrote: Never fear, Wave is here. Two things I can say with the utmost confidence right now: 1) I am NOT getting lynched today. Oh....now you just make me want to test that! | ||
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I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far? Actually, yeah, it is. Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is scum he'll do good later" stuff you both posted. Yes, if both of you are scum it's weird......but like really it seems to just have no importance at all when looking at the big picture or at stuff that matters (like....the lynch and shit) On January 24 2014 14:31 WaveofShadow wrote: Actually let me give a preliminary answer to that right now: I would say Gonzaw got framed. There is no way in hell I can believe that the way he has been playing currently points to a scum gonzaw---that's one conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole I just won't fit my fat ass into. I'll read his filter *shudder* once I finish what I'm doing just to be absolutely certain but I don't see my answer changing. It's obvious I tried to save my scumbuddy Foo by trying to get him lynched, then get my actual sandro buddy lynched, to make me and Foo look good so then I can fake having a change of heart on him and ride that town cred to victory Of course. | ||
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I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is town he'll do good later" stuff you both posted | ||
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You really think stuff like him shitting on me "coming from town VE who wants to put info out there!" is more important than that? If VE comes here and says "I'm scum we are conceding bye", are you just going to say "Oh, good ol' town VE shenannigans! Ta-ta!" or something? | ||
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Hmm, you know...it's kind of funny, but VE hasn't FOSed marv yet. He always does that lol | ||
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You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work) | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote: I just find that there's a lot of 'objectively scummy' actions lately throughout TL mafia (martyring for example) that can't be used strictly as mafia tells anymore---the vote switching without reason is one example. I agree that sort of thing and the way it was done is probably more likely to come from scum here, but it's not impossible for him to have been frenetically moving around as town, and I find myself expressing way too much doubt given everything else in his filter to be comfortable singling him out as the best lynch of the day. (Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.) That might be right, you don't have to instantly assume the guy is scum by that stuff... ...but you are calling him town for it. That's a big difference, that's what doesn't make sense. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote: (Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.) If you want to play this game, I can play it too. Tell me, if you and VE are scum, what possible play can you make to salvage anything this game, huh? | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote: This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit? Well, to me your play this game on D1 may have warranted a "Town VE thinks marv is scum and will tunnel him to death" attitude perhaps. Obviously not strong evidence at all about anything, but it's interesting. | ||
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Don't see what's wrong with both of you voting Foo on D1, it's not "suicide" at all, you both voted a scummy town while your other buddy FoSed someone else. | ||
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If VE is somehow town, I'd expect you to make a better defense of him, or counteract that by finding the hidden 2 scum we are apparently completely missing. | ||
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If you are town and somehow believe this, then it's better to just drop the associations and "I'll find the whole scumteam" stuff and focus on players individually. So right now, you seem to find Prome, Foo and Toad suspicious. I take it now you think Toad is less scummy? | ||
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Wos pleasd understand my vocal resistance,to your and VEs theories when they hinge and all 3 scum bussing all of them and no one of them even bothering to mysslynch a townie on fricking D1 | ||
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You think, there are 3 scum: X, Y and Z. You think scum X bussed scum Y ALL D1, without wavering, without changing his vote or even attempting to change his mind, and doing so up until the final minutes of the lynch You think Z casted suspicon on Y, and 30 minutes before deadline decided to bus Y You also think, that immediately after that, Y decides to come to the thread and bus X back. All of this, while this is the votecount at the time: (X): 4 votes (Y): 4 votes (Z): 1 vote You are going to tell me, not a SINGLE townie had a vote on them by the end of D1 (not taking into account Holy's wasted vote). You are going to tell me, that scum made a plan, where they cross-bus each other, vote NO ONE other than each other, end up with ALL THREE OF THEM having votes, and (again BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT) end up with NO TOWNIE HAVING A VOTE ON THEM AT ALL. Not only this, you are going to tell me that scum were completely happy with this (check Prome and Foo's behaviour at the deadline, they were pretty calm about it). You are also going to tell me, that after whatever sick plan they had, which involved getting X lynched, crumbled when a last minute switch to Z happened, then Y was still calm as fuck (even though their whole convoluted complex bussing plan they've been trying to perfect for hours and hours just crumbled at their feet) and even decided to jump on the bandwagon when he had stated in the thread he thought Z to not be that scummy and could be bad town. WoS, repeat what I've just said Do it, with a straight face. If you keep up with this absolutely. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:01 kitaman27 wrote: It seems to be that the individuals who were absent are the ones most likely to be mafia (VE, WoS, Holy), which seems to be where the town is leaning as well. I'm going to reread all three when I have the time. You posted this like 20 hours ago. I suggest you stop fooling around and get to it. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:19 WaveofShadow wrote: Replace the letters with names please because I'm actually having a hard time following your post. That's the point. Abstract away from the specific people you are talking about (which you clearly have bias against), and it doesn't make sense. X is Foolishness Y is Promethelax Z is sandroba | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:22 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh I see and so if you magically convince me now, all of a sudden I'm off the hook? lol what a joke. I see EXACTLY the problem VE was having. You leave absolutely no room for anything other than your current views when talking to either of us. Considering this, and the fact that we still try and converse with you and you have no intention of changing your mind in the slightest (me more so than VE) I think it's a fucking miracle that anybody would continue. Well WOS, only you and VE seem to have that problem (I don't see Toad nor kita complaining). Both of you came up with this ridiculous idea of the Foo/sandro/Prome scumteam. Coincidence? | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:26 WaveofShadow wrote: When did they not have any townie vote on them at all and for how long? Since this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=39#775 All up until the lynch (again, ignore Holy's vote on me, since it could have been on anyone) | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Nope, it's the reason I've been considering him town. Go ahead and tell me your post is not bias right now. Yes it is. But with good reason. Tell me how likely it is that as scum I'd take the difficult way out here, hard defend my scumbuddy ALL GAME rather than acquiesce quietly. It's waaaayyyyy more likely that I am wrong about VE than we are both scum. That's misdirection. The current discussion has nothing to do with you defending VE or whatever, it's you pushing that ridiculous scumteam. Anyways, you still think those 3 are scum? Did my "reality check" make you try to rethink it or anything? KISS. I prefer AC/DC to be honest. | ||
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Can't really explain it, but WoS and VE's actions this N1/D2 kind of reflect Toad's and VE's actions on LI, in particular ways. Kind of funny | ||
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Did VE tell you to do that? If so he's a boss lol | ||
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You are just assuming VE is town. The stuff you posted is not alignment indicative at all basically, but you attribute subjective value to it. Your wording shows that basically. Then you have lots of people with cases on VE, posting stuff about him, telling you "Hey, maybe VE is not town". I'd think you'd reconsider VE, take into account town sentiment, etc. But you straight up jump to "VE is so so town" (even if you aren't saying it, you are heavily implying it). I don't understand how you don't even leave the possibility of VE being scum open, again, considering how unconvincing most of your defense of VE was. Your defense on VE is based on nitpicking some posts of his, and showing in a contrived manner how, maybe, perhaps, in your opinion, from your own experience, can come from town VE. Every single one of your points is like that. I find it kind of hard to believe WOS, unless you are having some of weird anxiety attack or something? Dunno | ||
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?? | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:40 kitaman27 wrote: On a side note, I hate the fact that the name Foolishness can't be easily shortened. I suppose I could start calling him Fool, but then people wouldn't know if I'm referring to him or VE. He's Foo. Or Fooly if you want. Hmm, what about Nessy? | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, I would contribute, but I've been told that my suspects are off limits so I'm kinda at a loss as to what I even CAN do to prove my innocence. Maybe a story? You can sing me a song If it's good, I'll totes unvote you. Pinky promise | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:43 austinmcc wrote: (1) A magical world in which Gonzaw is mod-confirmed Gonzaw. Once he is known red, what in his filter makes you smack his head and go "I should have seen this..." On January 24 2014 07:13 gonzaw wrote: Goddamit I forgot to sen....hmm, I think scum may try something weird tonight. Who knows! Did I just solve your little game austin? Do I get a prize? | ||
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On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though. Holy is like 100% scum for him initially. On January 23 2014 05:09 Foolishness wrote: Also I would still vote HolyFlare, but I'm a nice a guy and he asked to be subbed out and I read too much into that sometimes. However Foo doesn't talk or do anything regarding Holy for like 24 more hours, where he backs out ONLY based on the sub thing, and nothing else (i.e forgets the previous case) + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2014 05:31 Foolishness wrote: Sounds like you're making good arguments why he should be lynched. Look at it this way. Let's say I posted and said, "Kitaman is the best lynch right now!" what would you respond? You'd say, "wtf he's been pushing the town in the right direction and asking good questions." Now I say, "Promethelax is the best lynch right now!" (or Holyflare) what is your response? You say, "Eh, I feel like he's doing okay..." I don't see any arguments that show that Promethelax is pushing the town in the right direction or pushing a pro-town agenda. He's responded sure, but where's the conviction and the push to get something done? On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Are you going to vote for HolyFlare then? On January 23 2014 05:57 Foolishness wrote: I already said that I'm prefectly okay with HolyFlare getting lynched. And by perfectly okay, I really mean okay. As in, if guys are that convinced that Promethelax needs another chance then please let me know now so I can move my vote. But now he wants him lynched as well? Second to Prome in a wishy washy manner of course. On January 23 2014 05:42 Foolishness wrote: I said I was confirming my read on him. You're asking me a question and quoting the post I answered it in? See where my vote is now? Promethelax or HolyFlare, both are good lynches. HolyFlare's recent posts are very meh, but he could genuinely be frustrated and he did ask to be replaced out. Had he not asked to be subbed out this would be an easy decision, but I feel his real life frustration could be coming out in his posting behavior. I could also just be reading too much into this. In the italics, he calls him "good lynch", yet in the bolded he backs out again in a wishy-washy manner? How can you say "I could also just be reading too much into this" if you just called him "good lynch" and are saying "He's a very good lynch I wouldn't mind him dead" and the like all the time? On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote: sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive. This is his last thoughts on the matter at the end of the day basically. Prome and Holy NEED to die. Yet his vote is on Prome, never even considers changing it to Holy (only saying "Yeah! If it comes down to it I will surely vote Holy of course!" when pressured and the like), and even backed out of Holy before so is he still wanting to lynch him or not? Anyways, before sandro died, he wanted Prome and Holy dead. What about after sandro died? Here is his 3rd page of his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&user=Foolishness¤tpage=2 Check from this post basically: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=44#872 Now CTRL+F Holy and Toad. Here are the results: Holy: On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote: I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events. Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#820 The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli. Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later. At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen. Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3. Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after. It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point. Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down. What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1. Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case. So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it. On January 24 2014 04:55 Foolishness wrote: If I'm mafia with sandroba that should clear Promethelax. The other mafia would likely to be kitaman or HolyFlare or just a random straggler who was already voting for me. Promethelax has made a lot of sense in his most recent posting (not the drunk ones, though I actually can't tell for some of them lol). Also sandroba went after him. On January 24 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: Then you should be advocating that WoS and one of the other mystery people (kitaman, HolyFlare) are mafia. From what we know of day 1 if the four of you die then the town wins. Toad: On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote: If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior. That's it. Those are the ONLY mentions of his 2nd scumread. Sorry, LEAD scumread (after backing out of Prome), all of N1 and D2. How so? Well, remember this post? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=46#914 In this post Foolishness proves Promethelax is town. Therefore, Foo stops chasing Promethelax. Makes sense. That post, and posterior posts of his though, make little mention of the non-sandro voters though. So, check this again: On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote: sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive. Foo's 2 SUPER HEAVY scumreads are Prome and Holy. Sandro dies, he "exonerates" Prome... ...so what about Holy? Nothing. He even says stuff like Then you should be advocating that WoS and one of the other mystery people (kitaman, HolyFlare) are mafia Foo, shouldn't YOU be advocating Holy is mafia....since you know...HE SHOULD BE YOUR LEAD MAFIA CANDIDATE NOW? No mentions of Toad either, just in passing. Woudln't a Foolishness+sandro+Holy scumteam make sense? Think about it: Holy has IRL issues and can't be active. Holy was AFK for most of the day (just was posting early D1 nothing else). Most likely, in scumland, he was AFK as well. sandro was AFK too. So, the ONLY active scum is Foolishness. That does seem to make sense right? Foo is alone to fight town. Therefore, all the votes piling on him without "resistance" isn't really a problem, since only town is active in the thread (sandro and Holy are afk, thus can't do shit) and only town is voting in the thread. When sandro does come back though, he tries to save Foo somewhat by going against Prome who had 2 votes at the time. Holy voted me (and not Prome for instance). Here is his vote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#807 The votecount at that time was 5-Foolishness and 4-Prome. You could say scum Holy would vote Prome to save Foo right? But then again, that'd basically make him out himself. Holy didn't do anything, had no scum reads. Why the hell would he randomly vote Prome? It would make no sense and out him as scum. This he takes the safe route out and wastes his vote. Foo had the most votes at that time, and even if Holy voted Prome it'd be 5v5, with Foo still getting lynched (because he had 5 votes first). It could also make more sense of his actions "confirming" the townies and acting pro-town. He says so himself, the only suspects left would be Wave, VE, kita and Toad. But, he, and we as well, are focusing on VE, Wave and kita. Those could be 3 misslynches, before we get to Holy. Scum wins with 3 mislynches, so it's a viable strategy for scum Foo to act "pro-town", make sense, confirm those townies, etc. That way he makes us all believe he is town (so we don't lynch him), and he uses his influence to avoid getting Toad lynched. Hell, maybe after this he backs out of his "these guys are confirmed town" read and goes after marv or Prome again (when town starts to panic and get paranoid) ..........did I just convince myself of this? Fuck if I know Fuck this game, I'm going to watch cats on youtube. | ||
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On January 25 2014 03:16 Toadesstern wrote: how do you guys read so fast... I'm still trying to get through WoS filter and it's just so much "i think this ... but well... maybe not" and can't get through because of that... Like I said, from my innitial read I didn't like WoS and most of it comes down to how he presented himself in the thread early on. Not surprising considering that my innitial read only consisted of the first 20 or so pages. Anyways, let's start with his very first post of the game: and given his more recent posts, like the two about VE this really is a common theme here: It doesn't look genuine at all. So first of all you'll realize the first phrase, being Welp, gonna go with my usual opener. and you'll probably think that it doesn't sound motivated at all, but whatever, could be anything, right? So you continue reading and he explains how he's happy that he rolled town because he'd be terrified to go up against town in this game. Now the green thing on itself is nothing at all, like I said could be anything, but take into account that he actually points out that he's happy to have rolled town and I don't believe a word he says. That post doesn't sound delighted, happy or whatever else. It does sound like he's completly unmotivated lol Wave's play this game has been anything but unmotivated. Anyways, could lynch Toad today I guess. But VE isn't doing shit. | ||
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In fact, if he's been motivated this whole game, and he said "I'm relieved to be town, if I was scum I'd be terrified", then who gives a shit if his 1st post is unmotivated, if the other 500 are? If he said that, but he played like VE (not doing much, then ragequitting, etc), it'd be a GREAT contradiction, where he said that stuff to gain town cred but contradicted it and outted himself as scum. Yet it is consistent with his play http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=72#1434 This entire case of yours sucks Toad. Nitpicking little shit (seriously you think he's scum because of the "no reason to vote sandro yet" thing?), bla bla ##Unvote ##Vote: Toad VE, your turn. I'm not voting you anymore, what are you going to do? | ||
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On January 25 2014 03:16 Toadesstern wrote: He wasn't around at deadline either, no posting. There's a certain mafia agenda to be found there.
Seems l pretty convenient to not be around at deadline if you're mafia. This is bullshit. The guy was AFK like 10 hours before deadline, not just 1 or 2. He was AFK for a lot of D1 not just deadline. Also, same could be said about your predecessor right? The above however and the fact that hapa died is more than enough to prioritize WoS over VE today. More WIFOM bullshit. | ||
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But well, I think Toad+VE is a possible scumteam as well VE+Toad Foo+Toad Toad is the common thread. | ||
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Welp (<- By the way, this means I'm sad and depressed and I'm going to go slit my wrists kthxbye) | ||
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WOS, so do you agree with my "case" (more of "speculative stuff I put that scarily started to make more and more sense as I was writing it") on Foo and Toad then? If so, or if not, anything particular you want to say about it? | ||
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I.e instantly finding Holy scummy (because of my case), but never doing anything else about it (other than fleetingly mention him a few times), to him being his 2nd scum read after Prome, to him not mentioning him nor you AT ALL after he had a 100% change of heart on Prome? | ||
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On January 25 2014 04:21 VisceraEyes wrote: Gonzaw you say Prom went after Foolish but here he calls Foolish townie Well, that read of his about Foo is kind of weird I guess. Too bad he doesn't post anything else until his vote though. ...here is where he's all about a HolyFlare lynch, and places him on his lynch list AHEAD of Foolish, where his vote is presently... Most likely that list is not ordered. ...here is even more consideration of others besides Foolish, in this case a semi-lurker... ...and here he ranks fool likelier scum than sand. Yet his VOTE ended up on Sand. Saying "He went after Fool, they obviously not a scumteam noob LOLOLOLOL" is.....unfair. Grossly. His vote ended up on sand because of shenanies and sheeping me. But sorry VE, if Foo is scum, Prome is town. There's no way around it: On January 25 2014 01:15 gonzaw wrote: You think, there are 3 scum: X, Y and Z. You think scum X bussed scum Y ALL D1, without wavering, without changing his vote or even attempting to change his mind, and doing so up until the final minutes of the lynch You think Z casted suspicon on Y, and 30 minutes before deadline decided to bus Y You also think, that immediately after that, Y decides to come to the thread and bus X back. All of this, while this is the votecount at the time: (X): 4 votes (Y): 4 votes (Z): 1 vote You are going to tell me, not a SINGLE townie had a vote on them by the end of D1 (not taking into account Holy's wasted vote). You are going to tell me, that scum made a plan, where they cross-bus each other, vote NO ONE other than each other, end up with ALL THREE OF THEM having votes, and (again BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT) end up with NO TOWNIE HAVING A VOTE ON THEM AT ALL. Not only this, you are going to tell me that scum were completely happy with this (check Prome and Foo's behaviour at the deadline, they were pretty calm about it). You are also going to tell me, that after whatever sick plan they had, which involved getting X lynched, crumbled when a last minute switch to Z happened, then Y was still calm as fuck (even though their whole convoluted complex bussing plan they've been trying to perfect for hours and hours just crumbled at their feet) and even decided to jump on the bandwagon when he had stated in the thread he thought Z to not be that scummy and could be bad town. . Anyways, let's take things slow ##Unvote | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On January 25 2014 04:29 gonzaw wrote: Well, that read of his about Foo is kind of weird I guess. Too bad he doesn't post anything else until his vote though. Most likely that list is not ordered. His vote ended up on sand because of shenanies and sheeping me. But sorry VE, if Foo is scum, Prome is town. There's no way around it: Anyways, let's take things slow ##Unvote | ||
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On January 25 2014 04:40 VisceraEyes wrote: This is Holy's last content post. I very seriously doubt that, as scum, his last act was to bus Sandroba before replacing out. Hmmm. What made you think that he was scum earlier? You know, when you voted him. Is this the only reason that made you change your mind about him since then? | ||
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On January 25 2014 04:48 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll tell you but you're not going to like it, but please refrain from going "SEEE I KNEW IT SCUUUUMMMMMMM!!!!" I was in the process of making dinner and was ATTEMPTING to get in on the shenannies. It was at the part where I was waiting for oil to heat up so I had a couple of minutes so I came back, saw your case on him, was like "Ehhhh that's reasonable enough I guess" and voted for him. Then he requested replacement so I was like "Well fuck, I guess Foolish it is then" and then the oil was heated up. I tried to come back a couple of times (interactions with Prome, one of the other leading candidates and a person of interest specifically to me) but never made it back to actually join in the fun. Once the oil is heated up it's frying time. On January 23 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: HolyFlare Come make me move it bro. On January 23 2014 08:03 Artanis[Xp] wrote: [center]Night 1 ... Your vote on Holy was 5 hours before deadline. Does it take you 5 hours to cook porkchops? lol | ||
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On January 25 2014 07:09 Toadesstern wrote: Also you guys (mostly gonzaw) told me to read as quickly as possible. It was a corner to cut. Yeah....26 hours ago | ||
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Cant' see a reason for him to just not read them at all, specially now that he has time (and was not in a rush from yesterday). Holy doesn't have that huge of a filter either. | ||
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So, you are still arguing for Foo+Prome+sandro scumteam. You've been told a hundred times the unlikeliness of that scumteam. Some reasons are: 1)Pre-planned 3-way ongoing bus from very early in D1 2)Lack of push on any townie at all from the entire scumteam (except Prome voting kita for a little while which he later backed out of) 3)Seemingly lack of reason for their specific votes at the deadline (why would sandro vote Prome and not Foo? Why couldn't Prome vote for sandro as an OMGUS, yet instead voted Foo? Why would Foo ignore sandro?) 4)Lack of sense in their actions regarding the voteswitch (why wouldn't Foo eagerly switch over to sandro and be here with us as another "confirmed town"?) 5)Lack of care that the D1 lynch would be 100% on scum with no townie at all being considered scum 6)Knowing that all 3 of them were considered for the lynch (from their POV 2 at least), yet they were pretty chill about the whole issue, and weren't really concerned, nor nervous, etc (e.g Prome's and Foo's attitude right at the deadline) I'm sure there are plenty of other problems everybody said. So, you acknowledge these problems right? Please post that you do, if not I can't know if you are ignoring them or not. If you do so, and yet still believe this is the most likely scumteam, and most productive way for town to spend this D2, then it means you must be REALLY sure that Foo is (individually) scum, and that Prome is (individually) scum. I could see you being kind of sure Foo is scum. I don't really see you being so sure Prome is scum (for example those statements you made me answer a little while ago are not very convincing). So, if you are so sure each of them is individually scum, that it trumps any kind of shit the rest of us can throw at you, prove it. Prove you are so sure they are scum, make more cases, etc. If so, how am I supposed to believe you believe this totally impossible scumteam so much? The same thing to WoS, but he seems to come around a little bit, and well he did post a case. | ||
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On January 25 2014 04:24 Toadesstern wrote: No idea, I haven't read a single post from Holyflare so no idea if his accusations on my predecessor as you coined it so nicely make sense, btw also something WoS mentioned about me how I kept the reads from Holy... I didn't even know that lol Actually, now that I think about it Toad, you don't even need to read Holy's filter at all. All I've said about Foo's "interaction" with Holy was said in that post I made. Nothing is Holy's filter is necessary to understand what I meant. Nor you need to read Holy's filter to get a read on Foolishness, which is what my question was about. So if you can Toad, when you can, answer my question, even if you don't read Holy's filter. | ||
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What I posted makes Foo' look worse than Holy/Toad though (i.e Foo can still be scum because of it with Toad being town). | ||
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On January 25 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote: honestly wave, gonzaw's case boils down to simply that central point. Well, there's also the "Doesn't push Holy at all throughout D1, just casually mentions his lynch is 'good'" stuff, and the "Mentions his lynch is good, and in the same post is wishy washy about him" stuff. | ||
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His "Prome is town" and speculative posts seem fine. The problem is that's all he does. His posts are 90% vote speculation trying to prove himself and Prome (and other sandro voters) town, while only 10% of them are actually about trying to find scum (with not really convincing cases on WOS). There's less scumhunting in his filter than in Holy's filter basically. Yeah, I find it hard to believe town Foolishness would think the better way to spend his time is keep talking and talking about "look at it from sandroba's point of view" and "there is no way Promethelax is scum"; rather than giving convincing cases about who of those 4 he mentions (Wave, VE, Toad, kita) are scum, and which ones are town. I think that's kind of important as well. He spends 100000 hours trying to convince us Prome is town and giving all these reasonings about it. So why doesn't he spend time trying to tell us who is town from Wave/VE/Toad/kita? Wouldn't that be much much more important? He had kita as very obvious town all D1. That would be a good place to start right? Time proving kita is town, from his own POV, should be time better spent than trying to (again) prove Prome is town. Yeah, would definitely lynch. My concern about not voting him...is that if he ends up scum I'll feel kind of embarrassed lol | ||
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On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote: Speaking of HolyFlare, this is off topic from my current explanation but when I went back later on and reread his posts I thought he might be town. I don't even remember why but that's what I thought. I don't like reading into people getting replaced out so I focused my attention elsewhere. If HolyFlare is town I expect Toad to be able to prove it to us sooner and not later. And by sooner I mean end of night 2 at the absolute latest. On January 25 2014 10:15 Foolishness wrote: That's not a silly question. I believe it is you and Toad. Though I go back and forth on whether it's Toad or VE. Kitaman went after sandroba a lot on day 1. He called him out early, voted on him (twice) and pushed his case. I don't see him doing that to his own scumbuddy (moreso since sandroba was inactive so his case just kept looking better over time). wat | ||
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On January 25 2014 13:08 WaveofShadow wrote: More embarrassed than I'll be if VE flips scum? Perhaps yes | ||
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That's kind of depressing. I really want to think about that vote switch as super awesome | ||
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Also, the meat of your argument seems to be that I lack a 10 page essay on why someone is mafia. I'll tell you right now that you certainly aren't getting one about any player in the game the next few days, and probably not for the entire game. I don't have the time in my life to do such a thing so I can only give you what I got with the time that I have to play this game./QUOTE] Well, you do have the time to make 10 page essays about the votes, sandro's POV, and how much Prome is town, don't you? | ||
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derp On January 25 2014 13:14 gonzaw wrote: Well, you do have the time to make 10 page essays about the votes, sandro's POV, and how much Prome is town, don't you? | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:11 kitaman27 wrote: I think it's between VE and Foolishness for me. Wave seems like he is putting enough effort into the game to warrant surviving at least one cycle longer than these two. I haven't seen a compelling argument against Toad yet. Holy was scummy null for me, but that was off a limited amount of posts. I'm mostly in wait and see mode on him. I'm on the fence with VE right now. A lot of the things he is doing I can see from a town or mafia VE. As of right now, Foolishness is the best lynch in my opinion. Strangely enough kita seems to be getting into my head again. At least regarding the Wave and VE stuff. Damn you kita. Anyways....yeah Wave isn't lynched today at all. Right now he has a 10 page filter, the 2nd most largest one (tied with marv). He's spent 6 pages of his filter being active in this D2. Can you say that of VE? Of Foo? Of Toad? Even of you kita, or austin or marv? His most incriminating thing is defending VE so much with unconvincing stuff, going against Prome over so unconvincing stuff, and spending so much time on an impossible scumteam. But apparently he got his head fixed and is making more sense now. Out of every "not confirmed", he's putting the most effort in scumhunting. Cases on Prome, then cases on Foo, then cases on Toad. Like...yeah we don't lynch him, at the very least on principle (you don't want to lynch the guy putting the most content into the thread would you?) Also, his outburst against Toad is genuine as fuck. Even I got angry at Toad's case when he made it, I can't imagine what Wave felt. Another townie point is seeing how his reads evolve. He clearly starts this day going full on "Foo+Prome scum, VE town". But then see how his reads start shifting naturally from post to post. He starts getting into some confrontation with Toad. Then he checks Holy's filter and finds suspicious stuff. Then finds suspicious stuff on Toad. Then finds him more suspicious than Prome. Then the more shit Toad flings at him, the more angry and "sure" he's scum he gets (at least in an emotional sense). You can see that progression. If he's scum, what's preventing him from parking a vote on Prome/Toad/Foo and then go on a fluff rampage or whatever? He already made 4 walls of text about Prome/Foo being scum, if he's scum he is already "set" in terms of faking contributions and justifying his vote. Yet he is very active in the thread, chiming in on EVERY detail happening in the thread, and reacting to them. If he's scum, with say, VE/Toad/kita/etc, would he really have the motivation to keep up that kind of effort after a D1 scum lynch? Wouldn't he just go afk like VE did or something? Also, I see him "pressuring" people the same way I see a townie doing right now. He pressures Foo, Toad, etc with questions, concerns, etc, even when he already labelled them "scum". But if he's townie, thinking they are scum but still trying to be sure, bla bla bla, it makes sense. E.g that's what me, marv, etc are all doing this cycle, and it feels natural. Counter that with for instance what Foo is doing, which is make the case on Wave, then don't even talk about him while still calling him scum. Or maybe even Toad I'd believe. I have very very very little reasons for lynching Wave this cycle Promy boy, where art thou? | ||
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Who do we lynch of those? Right now I'll chill and see things from outside a little bit. VE still hasn't done anything, but I want to give him time to "recompose". If he's town, he needs a little time. If he's scum, then the more time he spends doing nothing the more convincing the case against him is, and the less excuses he has. We also need Prome's updated reads. We could also need a little bit of drama. That's always welcome. We even have Toad right now! | ||
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I hope it doesn't come down to defending marv at some point because it'd kind of be hard lol. | ||
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At least 5 hours from where he heats up the oil until he's done (he could have spent more time before defrosting them, etc). Unless you are at a charity or wedding making porkchops for 100 people, I don't see that happening? It's insane. Heating up oil and cooking 2-3 porkchops takes 40 minutes at most to me, not 5 fricking hours. Maybe he's just fucking with us? Remember his excuse for not being around deadline is that he was with the porkchops too. Maybe he'll say he's still cooking those porkchops now? | ||
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On January 25 2014 14:01 WaveofShadow wrote: lol I read that and I wtfed too, but I personally hate judging people on RL shit. (I could be biased because I know I never lie about where/when I go or why I'm away and as you can see, I get retarded suspicion for it a lot.) Yes it's a viable way of getting out of suspicion by lying, but I find more often than not people do tell the truth. That's why I backed out of it, because I didn't want to start a shitstorm trying to figure out the average cooking time of porkchops and discussing the consistency of oil or whatever shit. But...there is suspension of disbelief, and there is "wtf is that true?" territory. Like, what if he had told us he was cooking the porkchops ever since he FoSed Prome? Would you believe him then? It's too wtf to ignore. The problem is that most of VE's "problems" with the lynch, thread, etc back on D1 hinge on this excuse of his. His unfounded vote on Holy then Foolishness, his behaviour from then until the deadline, etc. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't give a shit how much time he spends cooking food, but if his entire alignment hinges on that....well then you have to ask yourself "Is what this guy is telling true or possible?". | ||
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My filter is 17 pages long. Do you REALLY want Wave to read every single post of that, analyzing each and every single one of them, and saying "Ehmm, okay, if gonzaw was scum, would this individual post make any sense or be interesting in any way?". He'd basically spend 1-2 minutes with every post of mine trying to see if he can come up with some wacky conclusion you want him to reach. I have 335 posts this game. 1-2 minutes for every post means he'll waste 335-670 minutes doing your little "exercise". Do you really think Wave spending up to 10 hours trying to answering your question is productive? No matter what "answers" you want to see? No it's not austin. | ||
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On January 25 2014 14:09 austinmcc wrote: Of course it's possible. Cooking can take a really long time, depending on if there was more than just porkchops. Cooking + eating + any family time + cleanup can easily be 5 hours. From what I remember he explicitly said he was still frying the porkchops when the deadline hit, not that he was eating, nor cleaning them. But maybe that's just a derp on my or VE's part. | ||
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On January 25 2014 14:17 austinmcc wrote: VE said he was frying porkchops, but he also indicated that the pork chops were for dinner and the dinner was for family. I didn't get the impression he was at his computer then fried pork chops then said "THESE ARE FRIED" and returned to his computer. That sounds like a fire hazard anyway Hmmm, good porkchop defense | ||
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I'm very okay with that. Heavily doubt both are town. Let's see what the participants have to say | ||
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##Vote: VisceraEyes Where are my cookies? | ||
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On January 26 2014 03:19 VisceraEyes wrote: I read some. Go figure. Anyway I'm not even going to try and stop the lynch on me. Okay. You heard the man guys, he wants to get lynched today | ||
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Can you cook some for me? | ||
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Also funny how the guy you thought were scum, and talked 2 days about how is scum with Prome non-stop, is up to lynch, yet you decide to randomly vote another guy you think is town: On January 25 2014 02:40 VisceraEyes wrote: You're going to look scummy for being the only person who's right. Sorry bruh. On January 26 2014 03:16 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: WaveofShadow You and your cookies. Vile temptress. VE, you've done less stuff today than Holy did on D1. I don't see a way you don't get lynched today. Sorry brah | ||
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On January 26 2014 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Nah I'm good on Wave. Like, Hapa died in a game with marv, Foolishness, kitaman etc. There must be a reason. I can't imagine that reason is framing Wave, but I concede that it's possible. Would be fine and dandy except you spend I dunno how many posts saying Wave is town. | ||
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Similarly, your actions so far are unforgivable as well VE. I don't want to be a hypocrite. | ||
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On January 26 2014 03:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I have this thing about calling people town who think I'm town. I'm trying to not take that into account. But are willing to take into account some WIFOM shit about Hapa getting killed, and thus Wave is scum? Also, remember Hapa made that super case against Wave after scum's resolution period (where they had to send the kill) was over. There wasn't really any reason to think Hapa was 100% against Wave before that (Hapa was actually absent most of N1 by then). If scum killed Hapa, I can almost guarantee you it's not because they wanted to frame Wave. At least not in an obvious manner. | ||
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Yes, I kind of went hard against you back on N1. I understand your frustration and "not really wanting to play" at that point. However, I, and other players, gave you a free ride this whole D2. Nobody (except an early vote by Prome and me) voted you. Nobody even discussed you that much. Look at Wave, who we pressured like fuck and called him stupid and retarded. Look at how he even increased his activity, even after that. THAT is how you are supposed to react to pressure as town. Now look at you, you had 1% pressure on you this whole D2. A D2 where we spent most of the time discussing and arguing with Wave, then discussing Toad, then discussing Foolishness. You weren't discussed at all basically. Tell me, what possible reason is there for you to feel demotivated based on that? Hell, we even started to come around at the thought of Foo being scum, the guy you suspected but felt was "off limits" + Show Spoiler + On January 25 2014 02:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, I would contribute, but I've been told that my suspects are off limits so I'm kinda at a loss as to what I even CAN do to prove my innocence. Maybe a story? There are absolutely no reasons for you to ragequit right now: -I got off your back -Nobody is even discussing you -Your suspects are not "off-limits" anymore (except Prome) Yet you did. What does that tell us about you? | ||
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On January 26 2014 03:51 VisceraEyes wrote: "if scum killed hapa" lol Like, who would have killed hapa if not scum? LMAO lol | ||
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Know that you aren't really making us have that much fun VE. It was Prome that said (I think) he wanted the best of the best playing their best game this game. Yeah.... If you are town, you are not even giving us anything if (when) you flip town. You just randomly voted a guy you think is town based on false WIFOM, now vote another guy you haven't talked about since like N1. The only memorable thing I remember from you is "kita seems kind of wishy washy". Can't do shit with that if you flip town bro. | ||
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You know....maybe new vote shenannigans will happen (no promises though) | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:20 austinmcc wrote: I don't actually want you to post anything, but wtf does your shadow QT look like if you're going to be apathetic already on D2? You're not just town or scum, you're town or scum and sharing your thoughts on the game with someone this game. I think that makes it markedly different than any normal game you could ragequit or be apathetic in. You're not coaching, but you're...at least opening up your thoughts to someone. But you're content to just...give up? Well, if he's scum, he's likely going "look at this guys I'm going to give up and the derps will let me live just watch trolololol remember this scum tactic for later padawan" in there perhaps. | ||
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If you are town, well then fuck I guess, what are you going to do? But if you are scum, and we let you live....what will this tell us about valid scum strategies for future games? If you are scum and we let you live, you just successfully NOT played the game, and survived. You, and other scum in future games, will see this as a viable strategy. Scum in next games will just go "I'm under pressure what do I do!!!? Oh wait I'll just give up, appeal to their emotions and they'll let me live, easy as pie". Do you want to see this happening in future games? Do you want to see scum intentionally NOT playing the game, just because it would seem to be a viable strategy for them to survive and push their scum agenda? That's not how I envision mafia games. So, I don't want to let you pass VE. It goes beyond this game. Like I said, this is what made me make my switch to sandro last game. I also don't want to enforce the fact that scum can go AFK for 30 hours, come with a shitty case and coast through the game. I don't want mafia games to be like that, therefore actions like that should not go unpunished. Same happens to you VE. Actually, yes, the point that I want to make is that town should punish this kind of behaviour more and more in games. I've seen lots of games where stuff like this happens and the scum coasts through the game and wins (Risen in TLIII anyone?). But town gets second thoughts, or gets too scared to actually do something, and scum win (IMO) unfairly. On January 26 2014 04:25 VisceraEyes wrote: It's a matter of priorities. My first priority is NOT to stay alive. That's scum's first priority. My first priority is to find scum. And I've been trying, but I get shit on every time I try. EVERY TIME. Can you not see how this is frustrating to me? The problem is that you aren't even attempting to find scum either. You randomly voted your highest townread because of false shitty WIFOM, then parked your vote on the dude with the highest votes. Tell me how that's "finding scum, my #1 priority"? | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:39 gonzaw wrote: Like I said, this is what made me make my switch to sandro last cycle. I also don't want to enforce the fact that scum can go AFK for 30 hours, come with a shitty case and coast through the game. I don't want mafia games to be like that, therefore actions like that should not go unpunished. Same happens to you VE. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:42 VisceraEyes wrote: But it doesn't matter. If I haven't been here to do anything, you have to assume that my suspicions are still there. I didn't park my vote on the dude with the highest votes, I voted for the person I think is most likely to be scum. Can't really assume that, when Foo's play completely changed overnight and this D2, and lots of stuff has been said about him. I voted for the person I think is most likely to be scum So why did you vote Wave before? Before I mentioned Foo had 3 votes and the Hapa case came after the scum shot, HE was your "most likely to be scum" guy. THAT doesn't make absolutely any sense at all, specially if I assume you had the same suspicions about Foolishness. | ||
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There's also all the shit being said about him on N1, which has some value, i.e he was not a sparkling pro-town sunshine ray, he was actually scummy as fuck. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:55 WaveofShadow wrote: Ugh I can't tell if I like the fact that I don't know who's going to be lynched while I'm gone or I don't. Gonzaw on a scale from 1-10, how likely are shenannies today? And if so, is today's '3rd place' a likely target (like yesterday)? I get that it might not be possible 9or even a good idea) to answer this but I dunno, give me something mabes. Can't really say. The shenannies are dependant on what people are doing at the deadline. Like last cycle, where shenannies happened only because of sandro's post 30 minutes before. So if like, Foo or Toad or kita or VE do something incredibly stupid 30 minutes before deadline....maybe. However, I think we are past the shenannies. Maybe we need a "calm" cycle with a normal lynch. If not it'll break the status quo to much man | ||
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He's the hotspot in the thread at the moment, yet you are the only one going on a tangent with WoS about Foo or whatever and not discussing him at all. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Isn't that because I've been asking him? Well..yeah, but still. You've been going in that back and forth with him, but you also discuss VE. Why can't he? Unless he still didn't have time to properly read filters or something | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:30 austinmcc wrote: I suppose mindvotes do not count ##vote: VisceraEyes Let's test that ##Mindvote: austin | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=81#1610 Do you still prefer to lynch him over Toad? | ||
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Very interesting... I'm REALLY interested on what Foo has to say when he gets here. Will he keep FoSing WoS? Will he vote VE to save himself? Does anybody have any thoughts about this lynch polarity right now? | ||
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On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote: Town wins if WaveOfShadow, VisceraEyes, Kitaman, and Toad all die. On January 26 2014 03:50 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually I did NOT take that into account. Thanks gonzaw. ##Unvote ##Vote: Foolishness On January 25 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote: ... Foolishness is mafia ##Vote Foolishness On January 26 2014 01:48 Toadesstern wrote:... ##unvote ##vote Foolishness On January 25 2014 02:23 WaveofShadow wrote:... I'm actually pretty pumped now tbh. And I remembered something I should have remembered a while ago. I feel pretty damn good about this right now, fuck the conspiracy theory for now, fuck VE, this is where we go today. ##Vote: Foolishness Explain soon, and reading Toad. Interesting again... There are 5 "unconfirmed" people right now: Wave, kita, VE, Toad, Foolishness. 4 of them are voting the remaining one (Foo), specially after Foo posted so much about how the remaining scum is in that group of 4 (removing himself from it of course). All the "confirmed" people (me, marv, austin, Prome) are voting for VE All the "unconfirmed" people (Wave, kita, VE, Toad) are voting for Foo. Interesting dichotomy here. Does anyone have any explanation on that one? How come the people that are comfortable being "almost confirmed town", are going against VE and leaving Foolishness be for now, yet the people getting the most pressure and getting accused are happily going against Foolishness? | ||
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If Foo is scum, then 3 out of those 4 is town, and 1 is scum. The scum is jumping on the bus on Foo. But why? This makes it very likely Foo gets lynched, yet by sheeping the "confirmed", he can easily get VE lynched...if VE is not scum. Would he be scared, because he "jumps out" of all the other unconfirmed by being the only "unconfirmed" on VE? Then if VE flips town he'd be put under scrutiny? But bussing Foo is basically losing the game right now, isn't it? Wouldn't he take the chance? Or maybe he thinks Foo is still not getting lynched today and is bussing him anyways? Of course, a very interesting scenario is both VE and Foo being scum. Wave, Toad, kita, VE. You guys are the ones doing this. What do you think of this phenomenon? | ||
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I'd really like your thoughts on VE | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:06 VisceraEyes wrote: I would vote for Kita if the "confirmed" people wanted to not lynch VE. Toad too maybe. WoS too maybe. Looking at Foolish' posts makes me not want to vote for him though, and Toad's explanations make me like the whole thing less. I think Kita is my preference though. No. Explain what made you go from "He's obvious town and my only ally in this whole game!" to "I'd lynch him too" | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:07 Toadesstern wrote: I haven't looked into VE yet and like I said, I want to see how he changes tomorrow. But VE makes sense given the situation we're in assuming my read on Foo is right. I'd much rather lynch Foo before lynching into VE because of nothing but "because he'd make sense together with Foo" if Foo hasn't even flipped yet... No. Lynch is in 2 hours, don't see how he "changes tomorrow", specially if he is getting lynched right now | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:12 WaveofShadow wrote: It's everyone in the 'assumed threadwide lynch list.' (Which by itself makes me go mehhhh) So you don't want to vote for Foolish and your vote is on him? Survival I assume? Surely not On January 26 2014 03:19 VisceraEyes wrote: I read some. Go figure. Anyway I'm not even going to try and stop the lynch on me. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:16 kitaman27 wrote: Just got home. So is it 4-4 right now with Foolishness hitting 4 first? Considering moving over to VE to make it 5v3. brb Why? Don't you think it's more productive to try and convince me to switch to Foo for instance? | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: Talk all the shit you want, this is the second day in a row I show up and try and contribute and get "look so scummy lol he's trying that's so fucking scummy" Come on VE you've been pulling this "I'm the victim" shit ever since the game started On January 21 2014 14:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Let me know if any of this is unreasonable and I'll just stop - but I'm perturbed that I'm AGAIN the first SERIOUS scum candidate in a veteran game and I'm sick of this shit. Can you please just stop it? At the very least ignore everybody and make that case on kita or whatever I dunno | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:22 kitaman27 wrote: I'm thinking VE might be the better lynch right now. Wouldn't make sense to convince you on Foolishness, if that wasn't my preference. Well, you made a huge case on Foo, but barely talked about VE. What would make you change your mind? Also, do you have any thoughts on that "everybody is voting Foo" thing I mentioned before? | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:34 Toadesstern wrote: Well this might be another explanation to gonzaws question: Mafia was confident that foolishness isn't going to get lynched because VE would keep doing whatever and this all ended up being a minor gamble. Gonzaw, come over to the sunny side, we still have cookies. On January 26 2014 05:59 Toadesstern wrote: I've mentioned that I got cold feet right now, didn't I? It's for a reason... Foo+VE seems to be the most logical explanation right now simply because VE does whatever. If that's not the case then I'd say mafia has no long term plan and tries to hang on by a day by day basis and watch what can be done. So pretty much hoping for paranoia after a while and hope to somehow get people to lynch into one of the other 4 people. Come again? | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:35 Foolishness wrote: And in case it isn't clear I still maintain that WoS is a better lynch than VE. VE I can see as being town, WoS not so much. You better come up with a 10 page essay about this if you want to convince me you really believe this. | ||
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Need I remind you he has the 2nd largest filter (after me)? And 10 pages of it happened this D2? You guys think he can still be scum based on that? Maybe he wants to prove a point as scum, that you should never surrender and keep going on? Or something? Like I really want to know. At the very least I want to know how he's a better lynch than Toad, or VE, etc This goes...for everybody basically (Foo, Toad and austin) | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:42 Foolishness wrote: Because VE actually seems like he's trying to figure things out and is listening to arguments brought forth. WoS seems very headset on lynching a few people (he's pushing what could be a mafia agenda) and seems to be ignoring critical information brought forth about the lynch yesterday. But I could very well be wrong on both accounts. I'm trying really hard not to unvote VE and vote for you Foo I really am. Have you read the thread at all? | ||
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I don't know who of these 2 to lynch right now. marvy, where are you when I need you? ;_; | ||
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Wha... How is VE wanting to lynch ANYBODY other than him (from the "unconfirmed"), not really caring (and explicitely stating so), being "trying to figure things out"? "WoS seems very headset on lynching a few people (he's pushing what could be a mafia agenda) and seems to be ignoring critical information brought forth about the lynch yesterday." ... WoS "seems to be ignoring critical information brought forth about the lynch yesterday", "he's pushing what could be a mafia agenda"....wtf? Is he just ignoring everything WoS is doing this D2? Like being active as fuck, pressuring everybody, trying to figure things out (hey! Isn't that what VE was doing?), etc. Is this guy serious? | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:51 austinmcc wrote: A lot of his filter is his GIANT posts. The size doesn't necessarily equate to content though. His giant giant posts are VE is town, Prome is scum. But his reasons for VE being town are kinda murky, and he spends boatloads and boatloads of time on all these little things that make Prome scum, despite Prome being pretty much off the table (it would seem for WoS as well? I have not seen him pushing Prome lately) We (or well..I) are not really talking about those posts of his, but mostly the latest ones. The ones he discusses with Toad, with me, about a lot of subjects, like VE, Toad, Foolishness, marv, kita, etc. Still, it takes a LOT of effort to put those 4 walls of text of his with the "bad" cases of town VE and scum Prome. You think he, as scum, would just straight up ignore them later? If I make a wall of text like that as scum you sure as hell bet I'm gonna keep with them. Not going to put effort in vain. | ||
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...still, it doesn't really make sense. But whatever | ||
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Can you give reasoning and proof behind these two statements? On January 26 2014 06:42 Foolishness wrote: VE actually seems like he's trying to figure things out and is listening to arguments brought forth. WoS seems very headset on lynching a few people (he's pushing what could be a mafia agenda) and seems to be ignoring critical information brought forth about the lynch yesterday. | ||
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Foolishness, and who else? Prome, will you be here? Toad, kita, austin? ...VE? | ||
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On January 26 2014 07:10 austinmcc wrote: Nope. Packing up food now, headed to a cookoff. I will have pictures to prove, if necessary. Quick: You still wanna vote VE after Foo's new "entrance"? Because you, WoS and marvy won't be around. Those are 3 votes we'll lose, which maybe, maybe we could need to decide the lynch more near the deadline | ||
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On January 26 2014 07:14 kitaman27 wrote: Well Foolishness is voting VE no matter what this cycle. He just isn't ready to admit it. Me and gonzaw would be enough to decide the lynch either way, assuming that VE doesn't end the cycle off by himself. Hmm, yeah, we are both voting VE, so we can end the lynch on Foo if we want. You think there's something wrong with a VE+Foo scum team perhaps? I initially thought it'd be kind of impossible, since VE parked his vote on Foo on D1 and kept it there doing nothing, even with Foo gaining 6 votes. But well.....scum be scum perhaps? | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 26 2014 07:20 kitaman27 wrote: There was the interaction at the beginning of the game where VE and Hapa were going at it and Foolishness interjected saying "lol you're both town". You think that happens as scum to scum? Hmm. Foo has been calling VE town the whole game without flinching basically. Except when he put him in the "scum is in these 4" bag. Dunno if that tells us more about Foo or about VE. So you think right now it's either one or the other then? Huh | ||
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Let's see if Foo comes up before deadline then. Really want an explanation for that stuff he posted | ||
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Me and kita are kind of on the fence with this lynch, and have enough votes to swing the lynch to either VE or Foolishness. You think VE is town then? Will you try to convince us to lynch Foo, or will you do nothing until deadline waiting for your townread to get lynched? | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 26 2014 07:30 kitaman27 wrote: If we lynch down Foolishness's line of scum players, would he win as mafia? 9 remaining VE lynch + shot 7 remaining Toad lynch + shot 5 remaining lylo Wave lynch + shot 3 remaining I'm guessing mafia in those three. Essentially it would mean he would likely have to beat me in lylo with someone like marv/austin as the third? Well...if he is scum with one of those....could be? The point is, if he's scum, would this be optimal for him, or a good strategy? It doesn't really matter to question whether he'd "win" or not as mafia. It's possible he can't "win" as mafia, but if he is scum, he'll try his best anyway. Anyway, I'll be back in 10-15 minutes I guess. Let's see if somebody cares about this lynch >_> | ||
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Does WoS's push of Prome seem more scummy than VE's, when they were basically the same (calling the scumteam Foolishness+Prome+sandro, and posting stuff why Prome is scum, etc)? | ||
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gonzaw
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Well.......maybe we should keep the lynch on VE. Toad, I don't get it: On January 26 2014 07:39 Toadesstern wrote: I don't have a townread on VE, if I had one I'd be kicking and screaming. I didn't come to a conclusion on him because the same happened to me like 4 days ago and I happened to be town in that game which is giving me shivers. I'm kind of busy right now and only f5'in inbetween. I've told you guys to get on Foo, I told you multiple times so far and it's been ignored. I don't have the time to make a case right now. I DO think Foolishness is the way better lynch though and I DO think that reading VE tomorrow will be easier than today. That should already be enough if you seem to have the same problems I have with the recent stuff he has posted. Again, there's cookies over here so please come over VE basically gave up a long time ago, and I doubt he'll "pick up" and start putting effort. Why would you think reading VE will get any easier? What if he keeps doing nothing and saying he's apathetic and doing the stuff he did this D2? Will you say "Let's keep him around till D4, SURELY it'll be easier to read him by then"? | ||
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gonzaw
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I assume all scum have already placed their votes where they want them to. So...what do these votes tell us? What do they tell us about VE and Foo and others? I'll try to see if I can figure it out before deadline reaches. kita, you here for a possible switch or something? You believe we should keep the lynch on VE now, or do some shenannies? | ||
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gonzaw
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You don't want to vote VE, or you think the vote on him is pointless at this point, or do you prefer voting someone else and convincing us of that or something? Right now you are wasting your lynch vote | ||
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gonzaw
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That's basically proof he won't "pull himself together". | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 26 2014 07:58 Foolishness wrote: Yes I did. I thought Holy was mafia based on his posts and his replacement posts. After the lynch I went back and reread them and thought "okay I can see him as town saying these things even if they are suspect". As I said earlier I go back and forth on his posts.. Why didn't you make any post about this? You didn't care to tell us why you changed your mind on your lead scum suspect? (Remember, your other "lead" scum suspect Prome was town to you after your analysis) Anyways, VE lynched I guess ....welp | ||
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Choose the scum between them based on this lynch. Now | ||
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On January 26 2014 08:09 Toadesstern wrote: not really.... I'm trying really hard to not be a dick here, believe me I'm trying Why? | ||
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On January 26 2014 08:09 Foolishness wrote: Because I was focused on the day 1 vote switched. There was a lot of good information in that, including the timing of the votes on how sandroba voted for Promethelax. That was higher priority since I knew that it could possibly nearly-confirm 5 people as town. Would you rather try to confirm 5 people as town or 1 person as mafia? I went through the votes and all the timing to make sure that that analysis is sound because it sets the town in motion for an accurate plan to win the game. Also because it was pointed out that VE and WoS were likely mafia because of the votes on me. When this was brought up with compelling arguments I focused on WoS because he was one of my initial suspects day 1. Since HolyFlare got replaced I thought that Toad could have a day to convince us of his alignment, and that seemed okay because town was focused on VE and WoS. And that was good for the town and the right thing for the town to do. If the town spent the entire day debating about HolyFlare and newcomer Toad it would not have been as productive. And that's still true even after VE now flipped green. I'm not convinced. You make no mention of that. Only NOW you are explaining yourself, instead of explaining yourself when you should have (i.e when you actually had these thoughts). If the town spent the entire day debating about HolyFlare and newcomer Toad it would not have been as productive. On late-D2 there was plenty to discuss about Toad (who had posted a lot of stuff), and well, also Holy. You didn't either. Okay, why not Toad? Toad ended up D2 voting you. You think that makes him townie or something? Or that he has good basis for voting you? These are the people voting for you last cycle: VE, WoS, Toad, kita Who do you believe had the "best intentions" with their vote? Apparently Toad? | ||
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On January 26 2014 08:16 Foolishness wrote: Actually this is really good information. + Show Spoiler + If you thought it was a dick thing to do you could have just typed that all out? It is good information that you are scum in that chart? So...you confess being scum? Since apparently it's "good information" | ||
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Does that give you any info about it? Are both pushes lead by scum or misled townies? Do you care about being such a hot topic? Why are you so calm at times where you almost get lynched? If you get lynched, from your POV town lynches a townie. Wouldn't you make your best damned effort in trying to get town to lynch scum? If they lynch you, town loses in the long run by default (you are town). Last cycle, you got quite a bit of votes (4, you were leading at one point), and your runner up was VE. Yet you didn't really seem to care that much? Your lynch would be town (from your POV), and the VE lynch would be kind of random (specially since you said you didn't really know and you thought maybe the scum would be between WoS and Toad, etc). Are you apathetic to the fact that town should lynch scum? | ||
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...congratz Wave? @Foo: You think scum Wave was buddying up to VE there then? Your read of him changes nothing based on that fact? He defended VE ever since D1 (way WAY back), and he kept consistent with it. At points even he felt almost compelled to vote VE based on VE doing some shit, yet didn't. Also, please explain, in really attentive detail, what makes you go from having Holy as sure scum on D1, to having Toad as "very very likely town" right now. I mean, from your POV you have 3 people to be scum, and you leave Toad out of it. From what you've been posting I don't see anything to make me think you really think he's super duper town. So what is it? Care to point out some quotes, or something? @Toad: What do you think of Foo apparently buddying up to you now? I mean, he called you the most likely scum after VE, yet now he backed out of that apparently and thinks kita is scum with Wave. You "know" he's scum, so do you think he'd continuously buddy up to you to bus his teammate kita? He could have easily said "WoS/Toad" up there. That would be consistent with what he said last night, and from your POV it would be on 2 townies. That'd be good for a kita+Foo scumteam right? | ||
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He was here all throughout before deadline, poking Foo, even trying to figure out with me if we should lynch either VE or Foo. I.e he was engaged trying to figure out the lynch. Toad, if you think kita is scum, do you see him doing this? Specially if he attacks his scumbuddy Foo and the like? If you think Wave is scum, do you think he'd defend VE SO MUCH all over D1 and D2, yet bus his buddy Foolishness all D1 and all D2? | ||
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On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote: How did I not make myself clear? I explained my thoughts about the votes here, and here, and here. In that last post I explained why I was onto WoS again. In subsequent posts I explained why I was going in that direction and I clearly wasn't hiding any information. I didn't make mention of my read on HolyFlare? That's right I didn't, because why is it necessary when I'm bringing other information to the town? Crucial and new information about the votes and the timing of the votes. I'd say information about your top scum read is "crucial" Foo, yes. You don't just ignore (in the thread) your "top" scumread, and only explain yourself 72 hours after that. Also your "crucial" information was useful on N1 for a little while. You had all N1 and all D2 to at least mention Holy/Toad or something. There is absolutely NO excuse for you not to do that. On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote: Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure? What? You never mention what happened to the read of your top scum suspect in 72 hours. Now you are rationalizing it and giving some excuses and whatever. Yes, they could be true, perhaps, but I'm not convinced. That's what it means, nothing more, nothing less. | ||
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2)Just because you make sense on somethings it doesn't mean you are town (for instance the "vote analysis"). | ||
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On January 26 2014 09:47 Foolishness wrote: And I'd suggest you answer that question very carefully. Don't see how that question is that relevant. On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote: Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure?[/QUOTE] It's not so slim now. Just based on stuff posted about people, I'd say there are more "solid" cases against you than against WoS or kita right? Certainly more than against kita. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On January 26 2014 09:59 gonzaw wrote: Don't see how that question is that relevant. It's not so slim now. Just based on stuff posted about people, I'd say there are more "solid" cases against you than against WoS or kita right? Certainly more than against kita. | ||
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gonzaw
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I don't want a 10 page analysis of you being town, I want a 10 page analysis of WoS and kita being scum You made a case on WoS only on D1 and early D2. WoS made lots of posts, posted new reads, new cases, made more effort, had more activity, etc etc since then. You never mentioned kita either before, yet now he "makes a lot of sense as scum". You say that without any reasoning behind it at all. You keep making walls of text that say nothing basically. Like this one right there, you spend paragraphs basically telling us you figured out the game, that scum are manipulating us, that we should not waver on our stances, bla bla bla. Where are the reads? Where are the cases? Where is the attempt to push town forward? In most of the posts you make I get the same feeling. You just go on and on about some stuff, but I see little actual justifications based on the thread. Little quotes, little reasoning, etc. Just speculation (based on you being town most of the time), tangents, and some other kinds of stuff. Now that you've (I hope) finished reading the thread. What about the other posts from WoS? You only mentioned his "VE town and Prome scum" posts. What about the rest? Do they not tell you anything else and you keep the same exact read on him? His activity and engagement of the thread, and let's say, "motivation" throughout this whole D2 is what made me think he's townie, and made others back off him. Do those aspects tell you nothing about him? You think he's faking them as scum? If so, show us why or why not. On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote: Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread?. On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote: sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive. On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote: Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. Process of elimination: 1)Holy+Promethelax should die 2)Promethelax is town 3)Therefore, Holy should die. On January 26 2014 10:08 Foolishness wrote: The people that voted for sandroba are town. WoS is mafia. Kitaman as his partner makes a lot of sense. It won't make sense until you show us it does. Because frankly, I don't see it. On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote: These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me + Show Spoiler + On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote: Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually. + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote: I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game. Foo, these are the points about Holy you mentioned before On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though. I had HolyFlare on my question mark list since yesterday because as I said it felt like he was here posting but I couldn't remember anything he did and that is troublesome. Gonzaw I brought my arguments against you when you brought forth the analysis against me and I still stand by what I said. However I would not lynch you since you are actually here and posting and bring new information to the thread (and not just information about Holyflare either). There's no reason to doubt your alignment at this point especially if this posting rate keeps up. Same with Austin as well. That bolded bit made me think you had him as like almost sure-fire scum. I mentioned that contradiction, where Holy kept saying that we should pressure people that were lurking, yet he went balls against me when I pressured you Foo (linky: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=23#442 ) Did this case really make you think he's scum? Based on what you are posting right now it seems it didn't (you don't mention it). If you reread my case now, do you get new thoughts about Holy or something? | ||
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I don't see you being direct about anything. At one point you call WoS scum, then you call Toad+WoS possible scum team, then you call VE+WoS possible scumteam. Then you back off and just call WoS scum, then now you, out of nowhere, call WoS+kita scum. You think Holy is sure scum at first, then you still want him dead by the time sandro dies, then you don't mention him at all, then now you mention you thought at some point he might be town but never bothered to tell us that. You make walls of text with apparent justifications, and going on about the "sandro vote means I'm town", which is immediately followed by "actually it's possible I am scum and Prome town", which you then kind of confuse us by still calling you apparent town from the sandro vote. Dunno, I don't remember anything "clear" from you Foo, you keep confusing me over and over. Kind of like this: On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote: Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same. | ||
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gonzaw
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On January 26 2014 10:33 Foolishness wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 25 2014 09:35 Foolishness wrote: This is from a while ago, but his posts I saw when I made that post were: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=20#381 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=21#408 And I thought these were fine at the time. A lot of you seem to think that I'm doing things 12 hours after they happened when in reality it's been a lot closer. I saw sandroba and austin both come to the thread and start posting, and I didn't post long after that (a few hours at most). As I said, my mindset was, "well they've been kinda afk so far, but as long as they keep posting I don't have an overwhelming reason to suspect them". Look at my list where I put austin and sandroba in the same category; this is exactly why. Gonzaw kinda brought this up here but let's go through these scenarios cause it's important. Scenario 1 Foolishness is mafia Promethelax is mafia Yes, after seeing that my case on WoS during day 1 didn't have as much merit as I thought at the time, I immediately decided to bus my own teammate. Not only that but I was also under scrutiny in the thread, why would I bring attention to another mafia member when I can push a case on someone else (HolyFlare? Marv maybe?). Better for me to just keep pushing on WoS or pick a new target, no sense is putting two mafia members under scrutiny on day 1. Speaking of HolyFlare, this is off topic from my current explanation but when I went back later on and reread his posts I thought he might be town. I don't even remember why but that's what I thought. I don't like reading into people getting replaced out so I focused my attention elsewhere. If HolyFlare is town I expect Toad to be able to prove it to us sooner and not later. And by sooner I mean end of night 2 at the absolute latest. Secnario 2 Foolishness is Mafia Promethelax is town This is the only scenario out of the three that the town should be worried about as I didn't want to switch to sandroba and even said so straight up (the reason I didn't want to was because I saw Marv move his vote and I was really sketchy about him at the time. I didn't like what I was seeing last minute and I got super scared it was just town derp switching onto another town). But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia). Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town. I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1. Scenario 3 Foolishness is Town Promethelax is mafia Why the hell did sandroba push onto Promethelax when he could have easily just been like, "yo guys I've caught Foolishness as mafia in three separate games on day 1/2, this is a free town lynch"? Doesn't make sense. Secnario 4 Foolishness is Town Promethelax is Town I brought this up before, but go back and read sandroba's case on Promethelax. After sandroba's vote both Promethelax and I had 3 votes apiece (if I'm not mistaken here). Mafia were very very very happy with the votes at this time. Town Foolishness is under scrutiny and about to get lynched, and second in line is another town who Foolishness (apparently well-known scumhunter) is 100% convinced is mafia. Wow find me a happier mafia team on day 1 in a normal or all-vanilla game. Sandroba was not throwing his vote down to save someone or push for any lynch. Mafia were happy with who was getting lynched that day and there was no need to do anything about it. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTANT Look at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead. Sandroba's vote was not a push to get the town to do something. No, it was lazily cast knowing that both suspects were town and he could ride it through the next day. THIS SHOWS THAT PROMETHELAX IS TOWN Look at all four above scenarios. Scenario 3 makes the least amount of sense cause then sandroba's vote is an awful mistake. Scenario 1 doesn't make sense cause that means I bussed my own teammate (when I could have easily gone after WoS from the start or anyone else) and oh btw also means Promethelax bussed sandroba last minute (keep in mind him and Hapa voted 1 minute apart so in essence they both hammered that vote). The remaining two scenarios both have Promethelax as town. Because he is. Regardless of what you think of me as well, though the above and my earlier posts should prove my innocence as well. If you guys wanna spend 9 hours going down the conspiracy theory hole then cool story bro. Or you can just look at the facts and deduce the following: Town wins if WaveOfShadow, VisceraEyes, Kitaman, and Toad all die. Also my time is very limited today and tomorrow but I will try to be here when I can. This is a post that shows what I mean. You put lots of possible scenarios. Okay, good I guess. You come down to the "important" one: Secnario 2 Foolishness is Mafia Promethelax is town This is the only scenario out of the three that the town should be worried about as I didn't want to switch to sandroba and even said so straight up (the reason I didn't want to was because I saw Marv move his vote and I was really sketchy about him at the time. I didn't like what I was seeing last minute and I got super scared it was just town derp switching onto another town). But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia). Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town. I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1. This explanation has holes in it. But as I pointed out in my earlier posts what is the mafia doing the entirety of day 1 when I'm accumulating votes? As gonzaw pointed out this would only make sense if the entire mafia team (but myself) is afk (so like, HolyFlare also mafia). If your buddy is kita, then he spent all the end of D1 pushing town Prome. If your buddy is Holy, he was AFK. Nobody else makes sense as scum (WoS town makes sense, others were sandro-voters). So, there's no real problem with this Furthermore, if I'm mafia and Promethelax is town, then wtf is up with sandroba's vote 30 minutes before the deadline? His post wasn't a mafia post trying to save his buddy, that was a mafia pushing what he perceived to be a safe lynch to make his team look pretty for the future days after I flip town or Promethelax flips town. What was up with sandro's vote 30 minutes before deadline? There's no contradiction with scum sandro voting town Prome 30 minutes before deadline if you are scum. That explanation you posted makes no difference, you are just assuming you are town and narrating what scum sandro would do. You didn't show you were town, you just assumed you were town and explained sandro's vote. Here is it again, ALL of your "logical explanations" and the like have you assume you are town, and then you spend paragraphs and paragraphs creating the story around that assumption. Like here: THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTANT Look at this from sandroba's point of view in this scenario. The only people with votes are two townies. He drops his vote on Promethelax with the following mindset. "Let's say Foolishness gets lynched. Sweet, I just push on Promethelax the following day and tell the town, 'yeah guys you fucked that up, Foolishness is best scum-hunter NA we gotta lynch Promethelax now'. Let's say Promethelax gets lynched. Sweet, I just admit my mistake and push Foolishness the following day and tell the town, 'yeah damn sorry about that read, this guy Foolishness is definitely mafia and 100% misled the town into a bad lynch. Many people said that lynch was bad from the beginning we should never have listened to Foolishness'". No matter who got lynched sandroba was in a great position, that is until he himself got lynched instead. This does make sense right? Yeah, it assumes you are town. If you drop that assumption, then scum sandro voting Prome with you as scum makes sense as well (the part from above which you misdirected into using it to your favour). But here you are, trying to sell us this story as if it was the truth like you are some kind of salesman, with tactics like "look at this from sandroba's point of view..." and the like. This is an example of you "confusing" us, of you "distracting" us, of you "manipulating" us. You are not clear, you don't say "If I'm scum and Prome town, it's a possibility, end", you go on and on using fallacies and taking bad assumptions trying to "convince" us it's right. Then you go on and on about assuming both of you and Prome being town and how "it's the right thing" and the like trying to sell it to us. I end up reading that post not having a clear idea of what you are posting. Apparently the conclusion is "I'm town", but it's not clear with all those fallacies, wrong stuff, misdirections, etc. That's what you've been doing this whole game basically (you've wasted a lot of time with this kind of stuff). You are not being direct, you are confusing town, bla bla bla, specially with stuff that has no relation to scumhunting.. Would Town Foo do this? Does someone else see the same stuff I see, or am I too biased or something? | ||
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Yeah, that'll make me feel better about myself. Shame on you marv/Prome/austin/Wave for not being around! Pheww... | ||
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On January 26 2014 12:29 WaveofShadow wrote: I do accept partial blame for this mislynch, and I said so---what is the point of this post? Not feeling like shit...? | ||
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Does VE's mislynch tell you anything about a possible scum kita? What about his actions near the deadline? You can do this after you are done of course | ||
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Deal? Posting pictures of baby seals over and over not allowed. | ||
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Hmmm, I'll have to reread him. It'd be funny if the scum team DOES end up being Foo+Prome and we bitched at VE and WoS for no reason lol. | ||
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On January 23 2014 06:48 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm willing to vote him - I'm just hesitant. And Foolish looks like he's trying to manipulate me and it hurts my soul. | ||
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There are other little tells that I pick up that tell me "Hmm, I can really convince myself he's scum based on this". Mainly his Holy/Toad stuff. His Holy/Toad reads are stuff that are "obviously" out of place. You've noticed it in that "case" of him I've made for sure. It's obviously out of place in a way that can convince me of that above (him being scum). And on the other hand.... Wave, imagine Foo is scum. In this case, I'm sure you do pick up a certain association, between him and Toad right? If Foo flips scum, what would this association tell you of Toad? By association, I mean it from Foo's end mostly. I.e how Foo acts regarding Holy and Toad. I have a certain theory about it, but want to know what you think first. | ||
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Holy started his play here basically defending Foo and going against me. Who is to say, a scum Foo didn't see that and say "Hmm, Holy would make a good scapegoat", and tried to frame him in an associative way? I mean, everybody has done that at some point: See a helpless townie, and act all wishy washy about him, or buddy up to him, or defend him in "bad" ways, etc, so then other townies pick up that association and lynch him (even before you at times!). I get the feeling, Foo's actions regarding Holy, and now Toad at the end of D2 and the start of this N2, are too "obvious". Perhaps in this sense. I mean, I picked up on them, you picked up on them. Foo knows he'll die at some point. He was the leading lynch on 2 days in a row for christ's sake. Doesn't it make sense for Foo and the scum team to frame a townie like that once scum Foo finally gets lynched? Either way, maybe I'm looking too much into it. Maybe, maybe that "obvious" association is true. Maybe scum Foo is indeed buddies with scum Toad, and Foo is just bad at hiding it. But actually, this is besides my point. I'm not bothering figuring out Toad's alignment with this...but Foo's. This "obvious" association to me, feels very natural if Foo is scum with scum Toad, or if Foo is scum framing town Toad. But does it look natural if Foo is town? Doesn't to me. I think Foo's actions regarding Toad, whether legit (they are scumbuddies) or faked (trying to frame town Toad), speak volumes against Foo IMO. | ||
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On January 26 2014 13:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh and that's another thing I think I should mention. If I am wrong about Foolishness (and of course it's possible), AND he is right about the 'confirmed list,' then it means that form my perspective we have already won this game, because the only remaining possible scummers are kita and toad. This is a pretty farfetched thing for me to try to accept, and because I will apparently never be able to convince Foolishness of my towniness, he will never consider the though of a kita/toad scumteam and will not perform that 'flawless analysis' we need to convince everyone else and win. I'll repeat what I said on N1: On January 24 2014 05:57 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, so here's my proposal guys: gonzaw marv Hapa austin Prome Foolishness These guys are untouchable for now. They only become touchable if we misslynch someone. If we keep lynching scum, then they keep being untouchable. If we do misslynch someone, it is proof we were wrong, thus we reconsider those guys (Foo in particular). But until then, talking shit about them and stuff will only clutter up the thread when we have other suspicious dudes to focus on. Do people agree (bar VE)? Can simplify things a lot. We could discuss leaving Foo in it or out of it if you want, but at least the other 5 do go. We should follow the bold. We misslynched right now. We only have 1 more mislynch to spare. We shouldn't really have dangerous assumptions that could hinder our winning chances. Nobody is untouchable right now, at least not just because (they can be untouchable by their own merits, like leading a scum lynch, being sexy pro-town muthafucka's, etc). Let's tread lightly with the "confirmed list" stuff | ||
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But if we mislynch or we arrive at N2/D3, etc, then we should drop it and play seriously, since it's not a "yeah we are obviously going to win this" situation anymore. | ||
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On January 26 2014 07:40 Foolishness wrote: ... For the remaining three players I could potentially see any of them being together at this point. I haven't read Toad's filter closely, and everytime I read HolyFlare's I go back and forth on whether I think he's mafia or town. At the moment I think Toad is least likely mafia out of the three. I still think it could make sense for you (Toad) to be with either VE or WoS or sandroba but I don't have anything hard to give you in regards to that. On January 26 2014 07:50 Foolishness wrote: I didn't even realized that happened my bad lol I gave my thoughts at the time. I already said I could be very wrong on VE. I'm confident about my read on WoS. If you have the same read and gave good opinions then I got no reason to think you're mafia. As I said I've not closely read your filter because I've been focusing on WoS and the day 1 votes. I did say that I think you can prove your innocence to us by the end of night 2, and from what I've seen I don't really doubt that at this point. On January 26 2014 07:56 Foolishness wrote: I will actually vouch for Toad in that I see where he's coming from about VE being easier to read later on. But you're point gonzaw makes a lot of sense as well. Two different ways of approaching it. I'm moving my vote now because I actually have no idea what the vote count is. The case on WoS still stands but Gonzaw's point about VE makes his lynch better for the town as a whole. ##Unvote: WoS ##Vote: VisceraEyes On January 26 2014 07:58 Foolishness wrote: Yes I did. I thought Holy was mafia based on his posts and his replacement posts. After the lynch I went back and reread them and thought "okay I can see him as town saying these things even if they are suspect". As I said earlier I go back and forth on his posts. Toad seems like he's trying to figure things out, and even if I don't agree with his arguments he's doing things for the town and VE is not. I can't argue against VE here. I'm very confident about my read on WoS at this point, it will be reevaluated for the following day because he should be lynched asap. On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote: ... I'm not really sure why he went against that and started calling me mafia. Well, I see his reasons for doing so but to go against his earlier reasoning does seem a bit out of place considering it was at a time when the thread was giving me a bunch of heat. Toad, do you not believe in any of those posts you wrote before? The bolded are obvious bits of Foo buddying up to Toad or giving him somewhat unfounded town reads. The italics are Foo straight up saying he hasn't read Toad yet (although that last post was made after the lynch, maybe he did read Toad's filter there). The juxtaposition of those strike me as odd, and that's what I mentioned about Foo's "association" with Toad. He explicitly says he didn't read his filter, yet makes those kind of "buddy up" defenses? Like the "I said you would prove your innocence by N2, but I don't doubt that at this point", and the "He seems to be trying to figure things out" and the like. ...yet he hasn't read his filter yet. If he hasn't how is he making this kind of read on Toad? Feels off, feels out of place. Like I said before, feels so in an "associative" kind of way, which I think is telling of a scum Foo perhaps. | ||
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Idem about Foo..but erll at least you are trying to figure it out now hes not | ||
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On January 26 2014 10:03 Foolishness wrote: There's no case against me lol If I happened to miss a case against me find it and quote it for me so I can respond to it. I'm willing to lynch Foo only based on this alone. You have to be nearsighted to not notice all the crap posted about Foo, all the cases, all the votes, etc. Like kita said, there have been at least 4 or 5 of them (I'd say more), starting from the 18th page of this game! This is evidence Foo is not reading the thread, or not giving enough shit about it to remember it. On January 26 2014 22:17 marvellosity wrote: Fool's interactions with the sand lynch were also "too obvious". Do you think Fool connected himself to his two scumbuddies like that? I said before that Fool has no problem blatantly pushing a mafia agenda, but damn. Well, the issue is that he DID interact "too obviously" with a scum sandro, there's no denying that. Would a town Foo act that way? Because if not, the only thing left is scum Foo, yes, "blatantly pushing a mafia agenda". | ||
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gonzaw: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#359 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=22#437 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=72#1437 austin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=59#1164 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=59#1178 kitaman: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=78#1554 Toad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=83#1657 Wave: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=67#1330 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=98#1955 Have fun Foo. I'm glad you didn't waste the 10 minutes it took me to gather these | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:29 gonzaw wrote: There's something weirdly interesting about the Holy issue. It seems contradictory in a sense. First, okay, yes, he did scummy shit; but that's irrelevant to my point. What happened, is that basically everybody is suspicious of him or accusing him. Not a single soul is defending him. I counted myself, marv, kita, Prome, Hapa and Foo basically saying "yeh he likely scum", and nobody else is defending him, just saying "I dunno" or "maybe I could vote for him". It's weird, in the sense....that if he's scum somebody would defend him, right? But then comes the other interesting part: he has not a single vote on him. I mean, think about it. I basically straight up called him scum. Hapa too. kita now does too. Foo said "Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that". Prome agreed with Hapa and mentioned other stuff. Yet, not a single one of those (myself included) put a vote on him yet. Not only that, not a single one of the other people "not sure" or whatever put a vote on him either. I can imagine 2 scenarios: There is scum in those guys I mention, and there is scum in the guys NOT mentioned (like sandro, austin, WOS). If the guys I mentioned are scum, and Holy town, then surely they have an easy target right? They can park their vote on Holy, and be totally fine since 80% of the thread is against Holy (unless they don't want to be the first ones to do it or some shit). If the other guys I mentioned are scum (or rather, there is scum among them), then wouldn't this also be a good chance to park a vote on Holy? All the town "heavyweights" (who are pushing Holy) agree with a Holy lynch, so if you are austin scum, or WOS scum, or maybe sandro scum, or VE scum, etc, wouldn't you be VERY comfortable parking a vote on him? It's much more easier to pick Holy than to act "clueless town" and basically engage the thread in discussions and the like. So, why is nothing like that happening? I think this can make it more likely Holy is scum, based on how the thread is interacting with him. That would make sense, the townies find him scummy, and the scum are slightly bussing him (since Holy isn't even voted yet), or leaving the door open to bus him (if, for instance, VE or WOS are scum). I'll see what you guys think. I think a Holy lynch might actually be a good D1 lynch....but then again I think a D1 Foo lynch seems good too, and I don't want to "save" a scum Foolishness from today's lynch (if he is indeed scum). However, this was basically ignored after Holy came with this "I'm subbing out post". Also, most people (austin primarily) just saw the "Nobody is defending Holy" part of the post, but didn't pay attention to the "Nobody is FoSing Holy" one. So, considering this might be good info to determine Toad's alignment, what do you guys think about it, on top of all the info we already have? | ||
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Anybody here? | ||
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Don't mind me then. | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:08 marvellosity wrote: Hey gonz. I'm guessing you buddy. I'm not feeling much better than earlier, dunno what anyone else's excuse is :p Aww, I was having fun Anyways, I guess lynch Foo tomorrow. Don't really know what else town could do, there's just too much scummy shit on him. He's also the one "pushing a scum agenda" most out of all of us. Then I dunno. If I have time I'll reread Prome....although like you said....maybe it's a waste (how on earth could he be scum with the possible scum teams?). Maybe read austin then....but dunno if I'll find anything, specially before any Foo' flip or stuff. Also if I die...read my filter I guess? If someone like austin or Prome or you dies tonight then I'll be fucking pissed and relieved at the same time. | ||
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If kita is town, then don't let him get mislynched like this. If he's scum, how the fuck are you gonna lynch him without a case or anything convincing? Actually kita, if you are town, I advice you to start getting your motor running and try to be active as shit and post lots of interesting stuff and be townie as fuck. Maybe you won't get mislynched tomorrow, maybe not the next cycle, but I almost assure you if we ever get to LYLO you'll be there, and it won't be pretty. Imagine a Prome+Toad+kita LYLO. Did you? Was it as scary as it sounds? Then try to prevent funny shit from happening if it ever gets down to that. | ||
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But don't talk to him, if not he'll post huge walls of text about the sandro votes over and over. Nobody wants that. Let him do his "thing" where he spends 90% of the time making "flawless analysis". | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:19 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, nobody unvote Nessy tomorrow until he can make an actual case on someone, kita primarily, and acknowledging the WoS stuff as well. But don't talk to him, if not he'll post huge walls of text about the sandro votes over and over. Nobody wants that. Let him do his "thing" where he spends 90% of the time making "flawless analysis". Actually this might be too harsh perhaps. <3 Nessy :3 | ||
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In PTP Demon's run, you ended up with a 14 page filter in 12 days of game. In this game, WoS has 13 pages of filter in 6 days of game so far I'd say it's quite different....perhaps | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:29 austinmcc wrote: I think he had some good contributions. I think he has a lot of filler-y contributions. I think that everyone is happy to say "active/contribute-y" and nobody yet has really dug into what % of posts falls into which category. Heck, SOME of the posts swapping reads on WoS weren't "he had a lot of good contributions," but were instead specifically billed as "he's putting in too much effort to be mafia." Well, certainly not me. I tend to gain accurate town reads by the way I see someone behave in the thread with me around. Wave gave me good enough feelings about that. By that I mean, when I'm in the thread, I can notice thread sentiment, the current discussions and hot topics of interest. Based on those, I see a Wave acting in a way (pressuring people, coming to conclusions, chatting with me or others, etc), that seems consistent with how a townie would approach it. Mostly because a town Wave has the SAME information as me. A town Wave would see the same thread sentiment, see the same topics of discussions, etc. Based on that, and the way he did stuff, it gives me good vibes man. Basically the same reason I think marvy is townie town. If you read his filter, and see each individual post outside of context, you might say "But he isn't doing much!". The point is that context is important, and it's even MORE important while you are experiencing it (not really when you go back from the future and try to figure out what happened). That's kind of why I think it's important to make shout outs to the people acting like that while you are having those feelings, so it goes on record those guys behaved like that in that townie way at that time, both for other players and for you to remember later. I feel Wave acted like that the most on D2. I want to believe I'm not such a fucktard to let scum Wave fool me like that... ...I hope... | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:43 marvellosity wrote: Funny thing is, gonzaw, you've been kinda terrible as mafia ever since then, when you were amazing... lol Well, I REALLY liked Liar Game (comic) and the mechanics of said game (the whole voting tiers stuff with the "townie circle" was just so much fun) Also I was at my mafia youth, full of energy and motivation. Then I got mafia old | ||
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...but that has yet to be seen this game (please don't let the scumteam be marv+austin or some shit please please) | ||
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But then it confuses me because of the sandro shit, his jump on sandro's vote, and the fact that if Foo flips scum he just has to be town. Dunno wtf to think of him. Just leave him be until LYLO I guess, then get all tin-foil hat wonky | ||
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Marv, you used it as a good argument to think Holy was scum, then backed out when he made that "I sub out" post. After reading what I posted again, do you still think it's valid or not? | ||
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If he's town I guess he might have, but meh, seems too weird. At least pick the right target okay? Don't pick 2 obvious townies and keep wasting your precious time (before subbing out) on them. Damn wanted to read austin's filter. Guess I won't be able to | ||
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Goddamit. This game confused me. marv damn your mother | ||
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It will be evidence for future psychologists to determine new undiscovered mental disorders | ||
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You brought this on yourself. | ||
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Someone hug me ;_; Anyways, officially now I have more town losses than town wins! Hurray!    | ||
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Too bad you couldn't be AFK for 3-4 more hours and break the Intergalactic AFK Record. You would have gotten free porkchops with that one | ||
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On February 01 2014 08:55 Toadesstern wrote: come on no need to be a dick about it. Not everyone has your style of posting a crapton no matter of alignment and I'm happy it's not like that. Nothing against you but if everyone would post as much as you we'd have 300 page Day-1 games. @Gonzaw Well, it was making fun of him when I thought he was like confirmed scum in obs QT Right now...I guess it's a way to put some fun into this somber thread. And he did legitimately win that award as well though! | ||
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You ALWAYS lynch marv at LYLO | ||
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On February 01 2014 08:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Gonzaw often treads the line between poking fun and being a dick. It is a dangerous line. Yeah, I guess intent isn't really shown in text form. For instance, if I say ARTANIS YOU FUCKING SUCK, nobody would know I was saying that with an aroused boner, and may think I'm being a dick to you. The downsides of forums.... | ||
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Now I will never be able to distinguish between lazy town marv and lazy scum marv. Damn you | ||
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At least your thread-persona | ||
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Would have been fun to have VE and marv yell at each other from D3 onwards. | ||
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I mean, would you have wanted me to insta-kill you on MTG 2 and maybe lose town the game, just in case you were scum "with limitations"? Now in posterior games, how would I know? Life is hard yo ;_; | ||
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...to be honest, if people don't post I get bored :/ If I don't post I get bored as well. ...guess I have to find some other hobby when I roll town | ||
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I didn't know my posting was actually a problem this game. Was it? Barring N1 of course. | ||
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RIGHT before kita get's night killed, he finds the "decisive evidence" Prome is scum, by going through all of sandro's games and noticing how sandro busses his scumbuddies with "bad cases" and the like. I mean, wasn't that the checkmate in the Prome lynch? And it was such a good post at the time lol. It's funny, townies make very good posts before dying (Foo with his giant "cases", kita with that sandro bit), and while you play you think they are right and will win town the game, and then they end up being wrong. | ||
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Again, lots of associative stuff (with basically assuming Prome was scum, at least at that time) fucked us over. But then again, even if we didn't use the associative stuff we would still have been fucked over (and still mislynch Foo, Prome, etc most likely). Artanis, any thoughts about this....."game"? | ||
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Was marv alive as town in any LYLO (barring MTG 2)? I...just want to make sure if we can actually use that heuristic lol | ||
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If town wins in their game, then this whole game can be considered as a draw! | ||
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go go town! go go town! | ||
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Why marv? What did I do to you? ;_; | ||
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...and no knives this time around! | ||
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On February 01 2014 12:12 DarthPunk wrote: Just a forewarning for the podcast. I'm pretty sure I call all of you bad. Nothing personal I still love you. I also say that marv made the town his bitch. Much love. <3 Yeah, we always call you bad behind your back anyways, so there's no problem!!! ....ehmm, I mean...you bad DP you >:O | ||
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I didn't realize the game was still going on... ...wait it IS?? ##Double-lynch: marvellosity ##Double-lynch: Toadesstern HAHAHAHA I WON. TAKE THAT SCUM! | ||
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I doubt the "game with shadows" will have anything to do with this one, so you can put the podcast for this one, and when the shadow game ends the podcast for that one? | ||
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On February 01 2014 19:48 marvellosity wrote: It's extremely true. Anyways, town wasn't bad, it was a gg. Townies made mistakes but town influenced thread opinion and sentiment to foster these mistakes. FTFY | ||
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Don't remember what happened to that though... | ||
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AVENGE US SHADOWS!!!!! | ||
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lol poor austin. In his birthday no less | ||
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You could have lynched Prome you know? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
TAKE THEM AWAY AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Just for the lulz to be honest. But nobody was around so I knew we couldn't do it (only me+kita's votes were up for that). Damn...that would have been funny as fuck. EDIT: Maybe not THAT close, but the thought ocurred in my mind. Specially when Wave asked me if there were going to be shenanies. I instantly thought "lol let's lynch Toad at the last minute" | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On February 02 2014 06:52 Toadesstern wrote: Marv didn't play MTG Yeah...again, don't make me remember it again >_> But the sentiment is the same. Feeling betrayed, without hope ;_; RIP Ned Stark | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
The whole thing revolved on trying to figure out possible scumteams, and super busses, and whatnot, because, well, lots of people found Foo and Prome "scummy", while others found them "townie", so it become a thread-fest of speculation. "Oh, Foo and Prome must be scum together!" "No! Foo and Toad are scum together!" "No! They must be town together, in which case Toad and VE are scum!" "NOOOOO. Prome is scum with marv pushing town Foo!" Their alignments were a mystery until it was too late (N3...and well endgame). I think maybe we could have lynched Foo or Prome on D2. It could have made more stuff clear, to get a better read of the game by D3 (not that it would guarantee town to play better though). D2 was the "town fucked up" point basically. People that needed to post were AFK (Foo, VE, Prome), it was just the same guys posting over and over (me+marv+Wave). There were some bad pushes (like Foo's on Wave) that didn't give much info, and the VE lynch was basically a policy lynch so nobody really got any good info from it (e.g Prome and marv just voted him out of nowhere I believe, without a case or anything). Meh | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Actually, stuff on Toad was mostly missed or forgotten. I don't remember anybody's stance on Toad, other than austin vehemently calling him town because BRAINZ, and Wave getting angry at him (before D3 at least). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Dunno, maybe stuff would have gotten better by just letting things flow. I just get the feeling that if I stop posting nothing will happen at all (e.g remember the start of D3? Exactly like that) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
...you won't like it most likely | ||
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gonzaw
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Okay, you can say that "scum sarcastic marv" is less playful/colorful than "town sarcastic marv". But the point remains that THAT was a sarcastic response. So either it's "scum sarcastic marv" or "town sarcastic marv", and yes use meta whatever to try and determine which one. But...just don't say it was a legitimate serious question or something >_> I had you as scum in the obs qt for quite a while because of the stuff you said austin lol | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Not that I blame you, we all had derp moments (except kita I guess; kita's awesome). | ||
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gonzaw
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Tell me if the next sentence is sarcasm, or not: This sentence is sarcasm If you can't answer correctly, I'm afraid we'll have to send you to the Mafia Rehabilitation Center Psych Ward. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
..*rolleyes* | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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See how that turned out for him | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
At LYLO, in obs qt, marv didn't make any sense as Prome's buddy to me. Maybe that's why I went with austin scum at that time. marv didn't push anybody at LYLO, didn't bus Prome. If Prome flipped scum (which we assumed would happen at that time), marv would look horrible. He wouldn't be pushing anybody when that happened, he would have nothing to go on when N4/D5 falls. Austin already was pushing him as Prome's buddy, so austin had "leverage" when Prome flipped. Austin would just keep pushing marv with all his might. But what would scum marv do? Nothing, he'd go "oh fuck, I guess I have to find the remaining scum now". He would look bad as fuck, he'd have to change his whole plan to see who to pinpoint as scum, and he'd lose credit for that because he would have to come up with that out of nowhere (i.e no townie would really believe him). If marv was scum with Prome his play on LYLO wouldn't make any sense at all. I think that might have been a good opportunity to realize "Wait, something's wrong here". Well, for me it was just jumping into the Prome+austin scumteam. But from austin's POV, maybe you could have come up with something different, and maybe realize Prome was town (since...wel..you wouldn't believe in a Prome+austin scumteam right? lol) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
lol it just kind of happened? | ||
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gonzaw
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But well, your town read on him was understandable. I don't remember why everybody else thought he was town lol. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Or like my cat: MEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. Anyways, do we all agree to blame this town loss on Hapa? The guy had the nerve to NOT find the entire scumteam by N1 :O | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I think I remember thinking "Oh, I'll just assume Foo is right" and started assuming kita+you were town and Prome was scum. I don't think I even read his case correctly, but well it was a super case by Foo so why not just follow it blindly lol | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Well, you gave him a chance and he danced around all of you (us). | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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On February 06 2014 09:19 Balla24 wrote: It was pretty hilarious sitting in zoom together while foolishness is about to get lynched for the first time ever as town on Day freaking 1 of the shadow game Thank god someone saved him from the D1 lynch then right? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:14 Foolishness wrote: I ended up streaming myself playing this game while sitting in a chat with Balla24, Mattchew, Storrzerg, QuantumPope, Paperscraps, and others from the forum mafia and live mafia community. I gave my thoughts as I read the game and explained what I was looking for and how I was writing my posts. There was also a lot of discussion about the game (and mafia in general). You can find the VOD's here: http://www.twitch.tv/theworldbeginswithyou/profile (they will be uploaded to youtube later as well). Apologies for the random lag spikes and frame rate drops. Of particular interest would be the video here where I explain the behavioral analysis process and how to go about it, using Kitaman as an example (thank god I was right about his alignment). If nothing else I would recommend watching this video so that players can learn how to analyze someone based on past behavior both efficiently and effectively. It was a lot of work but 100% worth the effort, thanks to all that helped me or attended the discussion Wow, no wonder you didn't have time to post at all in the thread. You could have given a heads up | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
ITS WEIRD AS FUCK | ||
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gonzaw
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Sounds more baddass you know? | ||
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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gonzaw
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On February 06 2014 11:44 Foolishness wrote: It's cause I'm under the impression your last name is Kita (which I assume is pronounced Kee-tuh), but for some reason Kitaman (kit-uh-men) rolls off the tongue better than (Kee-tuh-man). The database thing was mostly a joke =P And yeah, you can definitely mess things up a lot if you look at the wrong games. Ideally you want to look at all the games the person has played, but nobody except VE has the time to do that. That's why I like to get two games as town and two games as mafia (or 3 if the person has played a lot). For me I find that's a good balance between getting a good read and feel for their play without spending 8 hours reading someone's games. I go for the most recent ones. If I'm not convinced with the most recent (scum/town) one, I go to the next, etc etc. The less time between the game you choose and the current one, the more likely the conclusions you take from said game are actually valid (i.e that player still plays the same way). Nah it's all good. We're all here to learn and to help others learn. Well, I certainly learnt not to use meta on you >_> I think I took town games from you from a LONG time ago (like >1 year stuff like Liar Game, etc), and well, you play kind of differently now, sometimes. We also all learnt to lynch replacements, and to lynch marv at LYLO. Those are 2 lessons I'll take to heart. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Well....you can see why I didn't do it with marv lol. I try to do that kind of analysis if I have a lot of free time and nothing happens in the thread (where I just go into "Oh well, might as well read his past games there's nothing else to do"), or if I'm really motivated to do so. Would have helped in this game perhaps, to catch Toad and marv, to figure out other guys as town, bla bla bla. But it's just so much easier to take the current game in isolation, and just use meta from your memory ("Oh, marv always lynches scum as town I think I remember!"). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On February 02 2014 05:32 gonzaw wrote: Anyways... AVENGE US SHADOWS!!!!! YES DRAW BABY | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7sroMdW.png)
