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On January 24 2014 10:17 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 10:13 marvellosity wrote:
austin, you should check my filter
that was effectively the main reason I was campaigning against Fool towards the end of day 1 if you recall... I know. It was something I had been meaning to dredge up again, but I was focused on finding lynch target between prome and sandro and not on poking at Fool. I liked that you did though, I think I posted something that was just a dinky +1. But I hadn't seen you keep poking at it, whereas I continue to see it as a valid question mark on Foolishness's head.
Given you agreed with my rationale for pushing Foolishness at the time and Fool was a main contender for the lynch (leading for much of it), why on earth were you dismissing Fool and only wanting to lynch between sand and Prome?
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I'm not even sure what you answering that tells me actually, because I don't see what the mafia motivation is for landing your vote on a mafia in the end in that case, it's just weird. But you may as well tell me anyway now.
Like the only way it makes sense is if you and Fool are mafia together and that is seeming quite unlikely right now :p
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So your basic argument is that the sandro stuff is enough to overrule the rest of his filter?
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Right ok. Well I agree with you that he shouldn't be on any do-not-lynch list.
Also amused that we've come at this at different times and kinda different reads. Probably if we were synced I'd be more worried 
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I voted first on the Node wagon indeed! I was trusting some dumb townie was gonna go "dat wagon too fast" etc
toodles for now, tis late
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austin, for someone who claims to want to play "thread police", you've posted the most amount of twaddle in this thread in the last 24 hours.
"Don't talk about game-relevant things like voting"
"instead talk about a pointless hypothetical gonzaw is mafia scenario and loop around the same Foolish stuff 30 times, that's way better"
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Some of this Wave stuff is so bad. Parsing it now.
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On January 24 2014 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
If we're talking meta, pressure won't mean anything to sandroba. He'll either play or he won't, and if he's town he'll probably find some scum. People like kita voting for him as a joke will probably not pressure him as much as you seem to think. Now this one is slightly more interesting. VE and I again both came up with this at the same time. One must ask oneself here, given that we know now the alignment of one sandroba, do you really think VE and I would both defend him at the exact same time with basically the exact same post?
I've had mindmeld with people before, and this isn't it. It's a totally obvious point that can be brought up by anyone (whether in a similar timeframe or not). The examples generally provided by Wave are really weak examples.
On January 24 2014 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 01:39 VisceraEyes wrote:Regarding Wave, I mostly have a townread on Wave, but am biased because I'm super town to him. It's a failing.  This post belies a towny mindset. Nothing much more to say about this one---I believe a post like this probably isn't easy to fake as scum. It's a known fallacy to gutread someone who thinks you're town as town, an obviously doesn't always apply given the people in this game life Foolishness who were suspect for throwing out random-ass townreads, but as scum it's certainly easier to throw out those townreads without coming up with a specific reason such as this. It's all in the mentality.
It's like you've never even seen VE play mafia or something? This is incredibly bad and VE is so, so capable of posting stuff like this as mafia. And it's actually really easy as mafia, because one thing you're looking out for as a scumplayer is allies. You're hyperaware of who is suspicious of you and who is friendly towards you when you are scum. Ez pz.
On January 24 2014 13:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far?
So yeah, the reasons so far are mostly :/
On January 24 2014 14:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 07:22 Promethelax wrote:On January 23 2014 06:03 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 23 2014 05:51 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:47 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 22 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 07:45 Hapahauli wrote:On January 22 2014 07:37 marvellosity wrote:
ok he can stay for now
##unvote Would this suggest that you agree with Fool's reads, or do you just think his post is a town-tell? Do you think he's capable of faking those kinds of posts as scum? I think his post looks reasonable townie and there's a lot of effort. I'm not sure how much i agree with his reads atm kita lower, prome higher, marv much much higher, WoS ??, gonzaw higher But his reasoning feels townie - putting me where I am because I'm forgettable, while ego crushing I like it as an angle to take, it's non-routine i think he's capable of these posts as mafia, especially after the champions game, and the way he made a list at the end was actually eerily similar to how he made lists at the end of those posts :p but overall the meat of it made sense. and he's trying Yeah...I'm in agreement with a lot of marv stuff from his filter, and the timing at which he posted stuff. One thing that stuck out is the above. I'm wondering why marv gave me a ??? at that point considering it seems likely he thought I was town before that from his attitude towards me. Meh..maybe not. And then this comes after my return On January 23 2014 02:49 marvellosity wrote:On January 23 2014 02:43 kitaman27 wrote:On January 22 2014 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 22:49 kitaman27 wrote:
I'd much rather hear who marv is considering voting, rather than defending a player he thinks is town.
Wave looks better, for obvious reasons Could you expand on this, even if it's brief? I didn't pick up on the obvious reason. Mine read was more based on the lack of anything wrong, rather than an abundance of anything he has done that is helpful. Also, could you justify your Holyflare vote for me with specifics? You mention that you thought gonzaw's points were good. Is that what you're going by or is the vote mostly due to his absence from the thread? I currently don't have a strong preference between sandroba and Holyflare and it seems like sandroba hasn't been inspired to rejoin the thread. I'll vote with you for the time being. ##Unvote
##Vote Holyflare Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda? Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative. I guess I expect marv to know...I dunno...more about me? Maybe why I was shocked he found me scummy in those games because I don't believe i've shifted my meta all that much in between games, and town-marv always seems to find me town eventually for all the right reasons. Yeah....would not lynch, but marv you left me high and dry---our palaver did not quench my thirst for you this game. (And it's basically become tradition at this point) I'm not upset with any of Marv's individual posts, but his overall play so far. There's a lot of 'overall play' I'm disappointed with atm, Prome included to some degree. Does it make those people scum? No, but Marvellosity is known for getting things done on day 1. I keep wanting to think you are town but you come up with bullshit like this that isn't even remotely true. I cannot believe that town foolishness actually believes these things as they are not remotely true. ##unvote
##vote: foolishnessI simply cannot connect the idea of foolishness being a good town player and him being town while saying things so blatantly false about so many players in this game. This sounds familiar. That's right, it's the exact same rationale he uses against VE later on in the day! Now while this doesn't indicate scum, I'm not sure of the viability of applying the same heuristic to multiple people like this---essentially every time somebody doesn't perform to your liking, you try to call them scum? I maybe should give it a little more credence because this heuristic is entirely meta-based and I know Prome is good at meta, but where is the proof? For us laypeople, how do I know that Foolishness is better than this? This kind of thing falls into 'stuff that doesn't pop out' territory. I can throw this back at him; I've seen Prome play, and I know he is capable of blasting people away with insane cases. He hasn't done it this game. Scum? (See how easy that was?)
I literally don't see the issue with this. I don't see how it's even supposed to be scummy. I use this heuristic regularly, mostly with success (Wave in LXIV was an exception... :p). Several fast examples: Fool in champions game n2/d3 or so, syllogism in Hydra 2 re: wagon forming, Palmar in Rock Band re:me, Palmar in Bureaucracy re:syllogism, sandroba this game re rome. "I expect x from y as town, and this is getting it all wrong" is something that you can apply to any player, you just obviously have to apply it to different extents. I don't see in any way how this makes someone mafia...
On January 24 2014 16:20 WaveofShadow wrote:You know who else nitpicks at obviously stupid things? Foolishness.
What's the point this is making?
Wave, your whole defence of VE on the whole feels very stretched.
And on the other hand, your whole attack of Prome feels similarly stretched the other way. Especially since you spend much of your posts on Prome telling us that this and that looks reasonable. And it seems very in isolation from how the wagons went down, and how sandroba treated Prome.
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On January 24 2014 22:48 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote:
Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" From what I could tell, he usually comes out with this huge "why VE is town" post the day he is about to die. I didn't find any examples to compare to his behavior this game, aside from a few overly aggressive/frustrated posts. What worries me about WoS's post is that he doesn't seem to consider the sandroba vote on Prom. Even if he has a scum conclusion, I'd think he would at least comment why it's a calculated move.I'll have a longer post out today on WoS/VE, but I might not have the time until this evening.
On January 24 2014 22:47 marvellosity wrote:
Wave, your whole defence of VE on the whole feels very stretched.
And on the other hand, your whole attack of Prome feels similarly stretched the other way. Especially since you spend much of your posts on Prome telling us that this and that looks reasonable. And it seems very in isolation from how the wagons went down, and how sandroba treated Prome.
ZOMG MIND MELD
kita confirmed town
gg
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On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work)
This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded)
As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p
Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral.
Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit?
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On January 24 2014 22:59 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote:On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work) This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit? Well, to me your play this game on D1 may have warranted a "Town VE thinks marv is scum and will tunnel him to death" attitude perhaps. Obviously not strong evidence at all about anything, but it's interesting.
That works both ways though. People who have played with each other a lot have kinda different, maybe more subtle heuristics for reading each other. Stronger townies than VE (Palmar notably) have made large cases on me D1 for apathy, uninvolvement, etc. Don't really see why VE would jump all over me for what I did D1 because what I did D1 isn't actually scummy for me at all.
A relevant example is that I don't find VE's switching about massively scummy like most of the rest of you seem to. For me it's the misplaced emotional responses to what's happening in the thread that's getting my goat.
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yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial.
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On January 24 2014 23:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
It seems I may not get to defenses of myself if I'm engaged in discussion with you guys so marv, can i ask you (if you don't mind me changing tracks super quick---we can change back after):
Do you think all of the 'WoS is wishy-washy' cases hold water?
Because I can tell you right now that shit pisses me off (maybe less so because the players who talk about it---Fool/Hapa I believe don't know me that well). My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do.
I thought your stream of consciousness on day 1 looked quite fine to me.
I don't know about these cases of yours now. It's not really the wishy washy... they seem to be zooming in or exaggerating on weird things and disregarding (or looking at weirdly, i.e. sand/Prome) other stuff. It suggests a weird perspective on the game, which could either be coz you're mafia, or you're weird... (pass right now)
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On January 24 2014 23:10 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial. And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?)Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong?
If I really spent a lot of time, I could go find a whole bunch of games where VE "ragequits" as mafia. But you'll just have to take my word for it, because... effort for no reason.
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Probably kita can remember one or two, he seems to know everything. There's one where he posted this massive picture of someone being shot or something like that.
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On January 24 2014 23:18 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:13 marvellosity wrote:On January 24 2014 23:10 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial. And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?)Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong? If I really spent a lot of time, I could go find a whole bunch of games where VE "ragequits" as mafia. But you'll just have to take my word for it, because... effort for no reason. No, that's fine obviously. What you need to understand is that I believe that could have come from town, and just because we may disagree on that doesn't make me scum. Nor does my different perspective (and methodology) of providing reads make me scum either. I believe if you really consider (and normally I wouldn't ask anyone else to do this because I don't have much faith in meta, but I do you are particularly good at it) the way I play in my past games, you should be able to find reconciliation with the way I've played here.
Why do you think I'm fencesitting like a baws? ^^ I guess mostly I'd like to see the rest of your content.
And for VE and Toad to come play the game some.
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Yeah I'd rather see the new stuff you had to say anyways.
The rest of us risk running round in circles discussing the same points otherwise.
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On January 25 2014 00:48 gonzaw wrote:
KISS everybody
This is the motto I live my life by.
austin: no. YOU stop cluttering the thread. Don't really care how useful it is for you, find other stuff that's useful to you that isn't dumb please.
Why is everyone finding Fool scummy just as I'm finding him townie? It's like suddenly people are hyper aware of what he did on Day 1 now even though that was sometime ago, and no-one cares so much about anything since.
WoS, do you really find Foolish finding an inconsistency/change in stance you made re: whatever-the-odd-thing-was-that-I've literally-just-forgotten-despite-reading-it-2-minutes-ago scummy?
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On January 25 2014 00:51 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 00:45 austinmcc wrote:
Not just bussing but SANDROBA bussing instead of them bussing sandroba. In that situation, I don't know why anyone would have Sandroba work to kill off 1/3 the mafia team so that he could get to D2 and....continue to do nothing for the rest of the game?
There are aspects off that team that you can MAKE work, but I don't think Sandroba works in that setup, based on his push of prome, the strategy that would have to be behind it, and his late return with the LoL game stuff. It works if you consider an apologetic sandroba who pissed off his scumteam by lurking or who considered a bus like this woudl be a good idea. Again I believe if Prome is scum then sandroba's case on him was PURPOSEFULLY weak.
This might hold water if Prome wasn't one of sandroba's original targets. That's a very long play that I find really quite unlikely.
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