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[H]Using PMs

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
December 17 2013 13:32 GMT
#1
Hey all, I've been reading a lot of the guides and game analyses, and often they involve what happened in PM land, but I've never found a definitive source on just how you should use PMs.

For example, in the Salem analysis, one of the contributors mentioned that you could confirm innocence of other players by PM'ing them. How do you first approach a player who you think is innocent and what kind of things or traps should you be setting?
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
December 17 2013 16:18 GMT
#2
It's a lot harder for a mafia player to stay active in PMs than a town player because of the time requirement. As town you're giving your honest opinion, but as mafia you need to generate opinions that mimic a town player. It can be difficult to keep your story straight because you don't strongly believe what you are saying.

If you ask a player for multiple reads in a PM, they pretty much have to respond to you. If you ask in the thread, it's possible that it gets ignored or it may be more difficult to follow up. It also puts the mafia player in a situation where they commit to a stance that they may regret at a later point, which limits their options. If you're looking for specific questions, asking "What do you think about player X and Y and why?", "Do you agree with case Z", or "Who do you plan to vote for today" generally are a good place to start.

If you determine that a player is town based on their actions in the thread and their replies via PM, you can create a town circle to help coordinate lynches among players that you trust. As a blue, you can reveal cop checks or medic saves to another player to post in the thread, but you have to be extremely careful doing so.

As mafia, you want to try to become part of this trusted circle and plant ideas in the minds of your PM partners. It's a lot easier to influence a player 1 on 1, than to influence an entire thread. You're also less likely to get caught if you push a mafia agenda this way. You can try to fish for blue roles, so long as you aren't too obvious.

Another thing you need to be careful of is that your activity in PM land doesn't come at the expense of your activity in the thread. If it does, people may question how much you care about the game and it could lead to a mislynch.

Depending on the type of PM game, instant communication such as irc may be allowed. In these games, you can set up traps where the other player doesn't have time to get their story straight. For example, suppose I'm mafia with player B. A town player could message me in irc asking if I've spoken with player B yet. Now suppose he has already asked player B the same question, but player B isn't around for me to confirm what was said. I'm forced to essentially guess what was said and hope I'm not caught in a lie.

You can use a similar trap in a PM game to verify that a player's opinion is consistent if they are discussing things with multiple players.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
December 17 2013 16:23 GMT
#3
Depending on the type of PM game, instant communication such as irc may be allowed. In these games, you can set up traps where the other player doesn't have time to get their story straight. For example, suppose I'm mafia with player B. A town player could message me in irc asking if I've spoken with player B yet. Now suppose he has already asked player B the same question, but player B isn't around for me to confirm what was said. I'm forced to essentially guess what was said and hope I'm not caught in a lie.

And this is why in PM/IM games you only use scum QT to communicate with your team and all the PM's/IM's otherwise are where you appear townie. And you need them - scum-scum interactions off-thread can be really valuable in proving your "innocence" if you do it well.
table for two on a tv tray
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
December 17 2013 17:09 GMT
#4
Thanks, great replies so far.

Regarding a specific question PMs like ""What do you think about player X and Y and why?", "Do you agree with case Z", or "Who do you plan to vote for today", if you don't get a reply from them, or a very weak reply that doesn't answer anything, what are the most likely reasons? They're Mafia? They don't trust you and so don't want to talk to you? I suppose you have to match what they say with how they're appearing in the thread as well.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
December 17 2013 17:24 GMT
#5
I'm glad this thread has popped up before my game starts. I'll just post some relevant info here.
On November 03 2010 07:09 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2010 01:20 LSB wrote:
Question, how should PMs be used by the town?

I generally prod a few people, but I don't get much off of it.

That depends on your style. I used to use PMs a lot to get my message across. I would have an idea come from several people at once in the thread. That makes it far more likely that it will get talked about.

Another thing you can do is just talk about suspects with people. Try to figure out if they're prodding with an agenda. Think of PMs as just another way to get a feel for people, another piece of evidence.

Finally, you can make circles and share knowledge. If done properly, this can be very powerful. If done improperly, Ace will rage at you.


On November 04 2010 16:49 Incognito wrote:
Ah finally. Thread revived. Its been a while since this was written. And at the time, Ver told me he was going to write a more comprehensive guide later. *cough* If any one point was the most crucial at this point, I think it would be day 1. We need a day 1 guide. A guide on how to start the game, how to create content, and how to lead town on the right track. What to look for in post analysis, how to analyze the game's atmosphere. I would attempt my hand at writing such a guide, but I think I'm not qualified. Ver!!!

Show nested quote +
On November 03 2010 01:20 LSB wrote:
Question, how should PMs be used by the town?

I generally prod a few people, but I don't get much off of it.


People like to use PMs for coordinating blue roles. While this is not inherently incorrect, it can be a serious error if you're not careful. Many blues screw town over this way its not funny. Claiming is ok if you know what you're doing, but most players don't have the ability to make proper judgments and claim to the right people (always think mafia are "most likely innocent" etc.). The most useful use for PMs that I can see is controlling the game atmosphere, circumventing a trashy thread, or simply circulating ideas.

Like I said in the other thread, PMs are insanely powerful if you want to control the game as town. Like Qatol said, a nice way to bring the town under your control is by getting other people to say your ideas for you. All you have to do is PM them, discuss a bit, and have them post your ideas. Building a coalition of people who support your ideas is critical to influencing the rest of the town. Nobody wins the game alone. Even the best analysts need people to support their agenda. Recent games progress rapidly, and have a lot of posts, most of which are spam. One voice in a crowd is easily drowned out in the presence of mass spam, even if you are a big name like Ver/Qatol. You can use PMs to assert your influence by having your point of view expressed by multiple people. Its harder to ignore a group of people saying the same thing than if you have one person talking. People tend to also be less suspicious of your ideas if multiple people share them. In this way, you can bully people to your point of view, which is always good even if you're town. More control for you means less control for the mafia. And the better you are at analyzing, the more you can be suspicious of people following others' ideas since mafia will be afraid to associate with and be forced to vote for your candidate.

Idea circles are powerful. Discussing suspects is one thing, discussing strategy is another. Generally in the early game talking casually about these types of subjects are a good way to get a feel for other people's position. Are they open? How active are they compared to their normal game? How much do they seem willing to contribute? Do they have some other hidden agenda as far as you can tell?

Spam. Inactivity. Both of these atmospheres make mafia not inclined to talk. Mafia have no incentive to respond to pressure in thread if there is either spam or inactivity in the thread. And it is difficult to tell whether or not they are truly inactive, not caring, or mafia lurking. Here is another place where PMs come in handy. It is much more difficult to avoid a PM than pressure in thread. If nobody else is responding, why should scum respond when they would just stick out? If everyone is covering up the pressuring post, why go back and address it? In PMs its much different. In a PM, the pressured player does not have other information to tell them whether they should post or not post. When pressured in PM, you cannot know whether other people are responding or not. You do not have enough information to give you feedback as to whether or not responding would make you stick out. So its safer to respond than not, as a non-response is certainly going to lead to suspicion while (hopefully) responding to it may relieve the pressure.

Gambits~ I'm not sure if I should share because it would likely lead to widespread abuse.
Blue fishing as town~ Not sure if I should talk about that either.


PMs can be a very town favored tool if used effectively, yet carry a good amount of risk.

PMs can be used for Traps, but they rarely work, and when they do work, it is even harder to interpret them. Chezinu is known for his work in PM land as an alignment indicator.

PMs can be used for plans, however hopefully the host will put in place checks to ensure that massively town favored plans cannot occur

My personal work in PM land revolves around town coordination. This can be forming a confirmed town circle (if medic protects someone and is informed of protection, or DT checks someone and is pretty sure he isn't Godfather), or you can use PMs to help with your lynches, and personally persuade people to jump on board your bandwagon.

Another overlooked way of using PMs is to cover your weakness. Some people are good at behavior analysis, but are very weak at actually getting people lynched. Other people are good at powerplays and can get people lynched, but are not very accurate. You can always find someone who compliments your play style and just approach them with an interest in getting mafia lynched.

If you want an funny example of what you can pull off with the power of PMs check out TL Mafia XXXVII Day 4. Be warned, don't try this at home. The feeling when Chaoser flipped red was so satisfying and felt amazing, especially since it was a group effort with Jackal58 and Coagulation.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
December 17 2013 23:44 GMT
#6
Just as people have different playing styles when it comes to thread posting, people have different styles when it comes to using PMs. As town, some people prefer to try and trap mafia, some people prefer getting innocents on their side and form a small circle to organize the town, and some people want to organize blue actions. As Mafia, some people are role hunting, others are misdirecting townies and pushing agendas, and some are infiltrating town circles. Not one strategy is strictly better than others, it depends on what your plan for the game is and the current situation.

On December 18 2013 02:09 ahswtini wrote:
Thanks, great replies so far.

Regarding a specific question PMs like ""What do you think about player X and Y and why?", "Do you agree with case Z", or "Who do you plan to vote for today", if you don't get a reply from them, or a very weak reply that doesn't answer anything, what are the most likely reasons? They're Mafia? They don't trust you and so don't want to talk to you? I suppose you have to match what they say with how they're appearing in the thread as well.

Yes, you have to compare to see if it matches what they are doing in the thread. If you get a weak reply, that doesn't say anything. Instead you need to analyze it from a variety of angles. Why did they give you a weak reply? Are they hiding something or trying to push an agenda? Are they trying to distance themselves from you for a certain reason? Does it make sense for them to give you a weak response if they are a town? It's really important to read between the lines, you can't just take what they say at face value and make judgments based solely on that.
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-18 00:29:03
December 18 2013 00:27 GMT
#7
One problem is that people are too eager to claim through pms.. in the GoT game a large amont of town players immediately role claimed to the scum team. Scum knew almost everything they could have right from the start and the game turned from scum having no absolutely clue how to use their kp into them having perfect information about town roles and town kp.
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
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