EPTOn November 21 2013 12:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:
This is basically what i am trying to say, and i have given my opinion on it. Thank you o' wise Mocsta <3
P.S. having just played a game as scum and being tunneled by a townieShow nested quote +
On November 21 2013 12:15 Mocsta wrote:
Sorry to weigh in.
In my opinion: The action discussed above is null.
Both town and scum realise they need to continue pushing an agenda whilst under pressure.
It comes down to *HOW* aquanim is pushing his agenda.
I haven't made up my mind here, but this question above is what should be asked.
On November 21 2013 11:46 sciberbia wrote:
@rayn
I completely disagree with you about this. The way that Aquanim has continued to push his reads in spite of being on the back foot is a townie point in his favor. You snipped the bottom 2 lines of a huge post in which Aquanim was scumhunting and concluded that he wasn't scumhunting.
Look at the following posts. It's not like all he's doing is defending himself and reacting to other people's questions.
+ Show Spoiler [Aquanim] +
Read the above quotes. Does it really look like Aquanim has stopped pushing his reads?
On November 21 2013 11:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
sciberbia. I have a serious question to you.
If you were town and being voted 24h into day phase what would you do? scumhunt? try to find scum? That's what i would do.
What does Aquanim do? "Mocsta and sciberbia, ask me anything and i'll answer".
Is this in your mind a legit way to prove your towniness if you think (as Aquanim does) you have answered to every accusation pointed towards you?
sciberbia. I have a serious question to you.
If you were town and being voted 24h into day phase what would you do? scumhunt? try to find scum? That's what i would do.
What does Aquanim do? "Mocsta and sciberbia, ask me anything and i'll answer".
Is this in your mind a legit way to prove your towniness if you think (as Aquanim does) you have answered to every accusation pointed towards you?
@rayn
I completely disagree with you about this. The way that Aquanim has continued to push his reads in spite of being on the back foot is a townie point in his favor. You snipped the bottom 2 lines of a huge post in which Aquanim was scumhunting and concluded that he wasn't scumhunting.
Look at the following posts. It's not like all he's doing is defending himself and reacting to other people's questions.
+ Show Spoiler [Aquanim] +
On November 21 2013 08:10 Aquanim wrote:
So, these votes on me.
Jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +
Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question.
Rean
I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay.
1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that.
2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do.
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
+ Show Spoiler +
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
Rayn
I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote.
If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer.
So, these votes on me.
Jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 00:22 jampidampi wrote:
Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case.
##Vote: Aquanim
Here's some more evidnce against Aquanim:
This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive.
@LoneMeow:
Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him?
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 18:24 thrawn2112 wrote:
jampidampi, have you noticed the elephant in the room?
It's over there >>>>>
What do you make of it?
jampidampi, have you noticed the elephant in the room?
It's over there >>>>>
What do you make of it?
Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case.
##Vote: Aquanim
Here's some more evidnce against Aquanim:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 20:01 Aquanim wrote:
Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted.
He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though.
@Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more.
Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted.
He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though.
On November 20 2013 18:22 jampidampi wrote:
@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null.
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora?
On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post.
@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora?
On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post.
@Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more.
This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive.
@LoneMeow:
Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him?
Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question.
Rean
I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 03:04 Rean wrote:
How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler +. And then you go for Corazon with some not terribly convincing arguments such as
This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim
Some other things I really want to adress:
Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia.
That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote:
Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do).
In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it.
##Vote: Rean
I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him.
On November 20 2013 16:08 Rean wrote:
...
To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure.
So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why?
...
On November 20 2013 15:57 Aquanim wrote:
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured?
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured?
To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure.
So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why?
Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do).
In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it.
##Vote: Rean
I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him.
How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning.
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning.
Show nested quote +
This seems awfully weak to me, a case on him at this point is already applying pressure by focussing discussion on him and trying to catch him on a lie. While a vote does put a little extra pressure on it I think saying it's scum-indicative not to vote is really overrating it's importance.On November 20 2013 18:04 Aquanim wrote:The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative.
This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim
Some other things I really want to adress:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 16:55 sciberbia wrote:
EBWOP
Oh yea one other I wanted to reply to was your criticism that I ignored Cora for a while. I stopped prodding Cora because other people were doing a fine job of it and I thought it'd be more productive for them to ask questions such as "explain why you think this about sciberbia" than me doing it. Also I was getting increasingly suspicious of him so I decided to just observe and include my comprehensive thoughts in a later case.
I didn't want to miss the opportunity to question Rean who is probably my second strongest read right now. I find Aquanim's above post on him agreeable.
EBWOP
Oh yea one other I wanted to reply to was your criticism that I ignored Cora for a while. I stopped prodding Cora because other people were doing a fine job of it and I thought it'd be more productive for them to ask questions such as "explain why you think this about sciberbia" than me doing it. Also I was getting increasingly suspicious of him so I decided to just observe and include my comprehensive thoughts in a later case.
I didn't want to miss the opportunity to question Rean who is probably my second strongest read right now. I find Aquanim's above post on him agreeable.
Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 17:20 jampidampi wrote:
At this point, what in Sciberias posting came to you as held back?
On November 20 2013 13:19 Rean wrote:
He means that Mocsta is going around calling people scum or town straightup, unlike Sciberia who is more held back.
On November 20 2013 13:14 Bereft wrote:
he wasn't actually calling mocsta scum. just you.
i don't see the distinction between mocsta's explicitly stating and sciberia's "window looking". how were they different? could you expand pls?
he wasn't actually calling mocsta scum. just you.
i don't see the distinction between mocsta's explicitly stating and sciberia's "window looking". how were they different? could you expand pls?
He means that Mocsta is going around calling people scum or town straightup, unlike Sciberia who is more held back.
At this point, what in Sciberias posting came to you as held back?
That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean.
Okay.
1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that.
2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do.
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 01:16 cDgCorazon wrote:
On Aqua (again):
My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me:
To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place:
It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess.
TL;DR
Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment
Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me
This guy is scum
I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
On Aqua (again):
My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:
I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.)
As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information.
I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.
I still want an answer to this from you:
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.)
As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information.
I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.
I still want an answer to this from you:
On November 20 2013 13:04 Aquanim wrote:
@Rean
Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment?
On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote:
Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.
On November 20 2013 12:52 Bereft wrote:
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far?
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far?
Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.
@Rean
Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment?
To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess.
TL;DR
Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment
Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me
This guy is scum
I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
Rayn
I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote.
If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer.
On November 21 2013 09:19 Aquanim wrote:
As far as I can tell, your entire 'pressure' of sciberbia is calling him out for calling you his second-strongest scumread and then not following that up. Which is a pretty piss-poor excuse for scumhunting on your part. This reads more to me like you being concerned that you're listed as a scumread.
@Rean: Do you seriously think sciberbia is scum? Why or why not?
And calling out LoneMeow for lurking? Please. Calling out lurkers is the easiest game there is. I don't see any actual effort from you here either.
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 09:08 Rean wrote:
Of course. I definitely didn't attempt to pressure 2 others (scib, already explained why 500 times + LoneMeow who is still lurking it up) while keeping my vote on you.
You've done nothing to make me change my mind about you, and while you're still continuing making bullshit arguments to defend yourself I'm trying to find more scum.
On November 21 2013 09:00 Aquanim wrote:
You seriously want me to think that you asking ONE boring, generic question is enough scumhunting from you? As far as I can tell, even since my vote you haven't been looking for more information, you're just sheeping onto my wagon.
On November 21 2013 08:51 Rean wrote:
1. Pressuring people trying to lay low doesn't count as useful in your book?
2. You mean the ones that were on the first 2 pages? I already explained earlier, I don't write essays when sentences suffice.
3. I didnt ask anyone to do shit, I made clear that I wanted to put you under pressure. However I didn't wanna distract from the topic being discussed at the time (again, I've said this before)
4. See point 1.
On November 21 2013 08:22 Aquanim wrote:
Once again, my scumread on Rean was of almost equal strength to that which I had on Corazon. The reason I spent so much time talking about Corazon was because
1) I was being asked about my read on Corazon a lot
2) Rean wasn't in the thread so my vote on him had not yet elicited a response
My case on Rean is essentially that:
1) The only thing he's done to try to draw out any information from the thread was to ask me for a scumread, which is a very easy thing for scum to think of and ask. Besides that, he's done nothing useful.
2) His answers to questions were short and didn't explain much, indicating that he didn't want to talk about his reads
3) He asked someone else to pressure me rather than just doing it himself, indicating he doesn't want to take responsibility for pushing people:
+ Show Spoiler +
4) He has shown little to no original thought
On November 21 2013 08:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is a big problem with that because you should be voting for your top scumread.
What's your case on Rean again?
There is a big problem with that because you should be voting for your top scumread.
What's your case on Rean again?
Once again, my scumread on Rean was of almost equal strength to that which I had on Corazon. The reason I spent so much time talking about Corazon was because
1) I was being asked about my read on Corazon a lot
2) Rean wasn't in the thread so my vote on him had not yet elicited a response
My case on Rean is essentially that:
1) The only thing he's done to try to draw out any information from the thread was to ask me for a scumread, which is a very easy thing for scum to think of and ask. Besides that, he's done nothing useful.
2) His answers to questions were short and didn't explain much, indicating that he didn't want to talk about his reads
3) He asked someone else to pressure me rather than just doing it himself, indicating he doesn't want to take responsibility for pushing people:
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 15:50 Rean wrote:
Smartass comment that I couldn't resist: + Show Spoiler +
consider getting one of these, you could use it :3
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/4t8oM40)
More seriously: Mocsta, good post by post analysis but I don't agree with it all. Your points on both Scib and Corazon make sense but I think you're falling into the "he must be scum so I'll try to interpret everything he says as scummy" trap a little with Cora.
In particular: + Show Spoiler +
seems like a legitimate point to me rather than a scum-slip. But it could be a way of distancing himself from Scib if he flips red.
I also want to see Aquanim under a bit of pressure to see how he reacts but let's not do everything at once.
And the lack of 5 people is rather disappointing still.
Smartass comment that I couldn't resist: + Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 15:28 Mocsta wrote:post 10
On November 20 2013 15:29 Mocsta wrote:post 12
consider getting one of these, you could use it :3
More seriously: Mocsta, good post by post analysis but I don't agree with it all. Your points on both Scib and Corazon make sense but I think you're falling into the "he must be scum so I'll try to interpret everything he says as scummy" trap a little with Cora.
In particular: + Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
I also want to see Aquanim under a bit of pressure to see how he reacts but let's not do everything at once.
And the lack of 5 people is rather disappointing still.
4) He has shown little to no original thought
1. Pressuring people trying to lay low doesn't count as useful in your book?
2. You mean the ones that were on the first 2 pages? I already explained earlier, I don't write essays when sentences suffice.
3. I didnt ask anyone to do shit, I made clear that I wanted to put you under pressure. However I didn't wanna distract from the topic being discussed at the time (again, I've said this before)
4. See point 1.
You seriously want me to think that you asking ONE boring, generic question is enough scumhunting from you? As far as I can tell, even since my vote you haven't been looking for more information, you're just sheeping onto my wagon.
Of course. I definitely didn't attempt to pressure 2 others (scib, already explained why 500 times + LoneMeow who is still lurking it up) while keeping my vote on you.
You've done nothing to make me change my mind about you, and while you're still continuing making bullshit arguments to defend yourself I'm trying to find more scum.
As far as I can tell, your entire 'pressure' of sciberbia is calling him out for calling you his second-strongest scumread and then not following that up. Which is a pretty piss-poor excuse for scumhunting on your part. This reads more to me like you being concerned that you're listed as a scumread.
@Rean: Do you seriously think sciberbia is scum? Why or why not?
And calling out LoneMeow for lurking? Please. Calling out lurkers is the easiest game there is. I don't see any actual effort from you here either.
On November 21 2013 10:42 Aquanim wrote:
To be honest I'm now more confident in Rean scum than Corazon.
Before I went to sleep, pretty much the sum total of Corazon's play was some half-assed push on sciberbia without a vote, which I considered scummy. I'm having some trouble reconciling
with
but that is the kind of contradiction which I could believe a townie would make.
Since then, however, Corazon's posting has improved somewhat - he's talking about a larger variety of things in the thread and looks more like he's trying to be productive and useful. I'm still not convinced since a fair bit of his volume is devoted to defending his statements rather than doing anything proactive, but that's understandable given how much he's being asked to defend himself. I don't see anything which convinces me as to his alignment either way.
His apparent conviction that I'm scum is a pretty safe view to hold given the current state of the thread. Again, could just be a townie who agrees with other townies, or he could be scum hiding on the obvious wagon. Hard to tell.
Summary of my read on Corazon: I can believe everything Corazon's done so far from a scum Corazon or a town Corazon, though I feel the scum explanation is more likely. I'd prefer to wait for another day to lynch him and try to put together a more conclusive read on him. I'd certainly prefer to lynch him before most people in this game.
+ Show Spoiler +
As for Rean, since I put my vote on him his contributions have been:
1) jumping on my wagon, which he was pretty much obliged to
2) making some shitty point against sciberbia and then defending it against all and sundry - the fact that this point is based around sciberbia having a scum read on Rean is a black mark in my opinion, attacking someone for giving them a scumread is a typical scum move
3) calling out LoneMeow lurking, which as I've said is really, really easy for scum to do
Again, I have no conclusive evidence that Rean is scum, but I'm more confident about him than Corazon. His point against sciberbia really smells to me.
They're both coming after me with a fair dose of confirmation-bias/deliberate-obtuseness, so there's that too.
As regards the other two:
JarJarDrinks
- Original case on Mocsta was not really airtight but not having been there at the time I can understand his argument, even if I don't agree with it.
- Overall he's putting his viewpoint into the thread and defending it effectively when queried.
- He's seeking clarification from Corazon about Cora's original argument against sciberbia, which was indeed unclear. i.e. trying to understand what's going on in the game, when he could have just ignored it and carried on. Major town points.
Conclusion: Likely town.
Onegu
- First post is clearly based on a quick scan of the thread rather than in-depth analysis. I don't know that I'd take it too seriously.
- Suspicion of Mocsta's "thread captaining" is weird, it's not an argument I'd have made and I don't find it convincing. Plenty of townies make arguments I don't find convincing though, so meh.
- Put a lot of work into replying to Mocsta's wallpost, but given how useless that was I don't give it town points.
- Other than that, not a whole lot of effort.
Conclusion: Definitely need to see more effort. If it's not forthcoming, I think he's a decent lynch today, though I'd still prefer Rean or maybe Cora. If he does offer some more reads, activity, etc. I think he could then at least wait for another day.
At this point my lynch is looking quite likely. However, I'm still a townie and I can still be useful to you.
If I go and do something on my own initiative at this point, I reckon whatever it is I'm going to get jumped on by eager scum and confirmation-biased townies. I can still do that if that's what you'd prefer.
I think I can accomplish more if you ask me questions. That way, since you all have the initiative about what I talk about, I won't get jumped on for every post I make for "trying to redirect discussion" or some such rubbish.
At this point, Mocsta and sciberbia, I think this is mostly on you - everyone else here either doesn't want to talk to me or is just lurking. What would you like to talk to me about?
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 09:41 Mocsta wrote:
I am about to do another re-read now I got 3hrs of sleep
Sorry to beat the drum that has been asked several times, I just want a concise summary of your stances so I can cross-reference when I read.
(1) You have had a mild to now strong scum read on Corazon basically all game (developed to strong last say 8 hrs)
(2) You have a mild to now strong scum read on rean basically all game
(3) I dont think there are opinions on anything else?
+ please throw out a read on JJD/Onegu.
On November 21 2013 09:35 Aquanim wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
The red: Corazon's third argument why I was scum is that "this guy [Aquanim] is scum". I was replying to that point in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.
OK,+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 09:34 Mocsta wrote:
Help me out please:
A (red) - I assume the guy that isn't scum is Corazon; otherwise the only person this could be referring to contextually is Rean (which makes zero sense)
B (blue) - If you can state openly Corazon *is* town, why do you proceed with point 4 where you dilute that read? Quite an odd sequence in my mind.
C (green) - I can't follow the progression to this post:
Yes there is some justification but this is OMGUS at its best.
I also know from the standard of play that you judge others that you would not fall prey to this type of behavior (this I am certain of) henceforth, I can not follow the progression of A to B to C.
Show nested quote +
Aquanim, I know you are getting abused left, right and center but I am willing to listen to you.On November 21 2013 08:10 Aquanim wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
So, these votes on me.
Jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +
Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question.
Rean
I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +
Okay.
1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that.
2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do.
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
+ Show Spoiler +
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
Rayn
I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote.
If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer.
Jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 00:22 jampidampi wrote:
Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case.
##Vote: Aquanim
Here's some more evidnce against Aquanim:
This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive.
@LoneMeow:
Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him?
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 18:24 thrawn2112 wrote:
jampidampi, have you noticed the elephant in the room?
It's over there >>>>>
What do you make of it?
jampidampi, have you noticed the elephant in the room?
It's over there >>>>>
What do you make of it?
Assuming you mean your case on Aquanim. I like it. I especially like how it applies to Aquas play even after the case.
##Vote: Aquanim
Here's some more evidnce against Aquanim:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 20:01 Aquanim wrote:
Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted.
He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though.
@Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more.
Well, it looks like Jampidampi has run off without adressing the elephant. I'm not sure whether to be insulted.
He'd better offer some more constructive opinions when he gets back, though.
On November 20 2013 18:22 jampidampi wrote:
@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null.
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora?
On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post.
@Sciberbia: My read on Corazon is not conclusive aka null. Slightly on the town side of null.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote:
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
I took a shower. Sorry for not wanting to smell bad.
Moc, I'm quite concerned that you have already used up >25% of your "self-allotted posts". If you're going to start spamming, it's going to be a problem.
Now to my goals/early game statements:
1. I'm not gonna make any meta crap posts. TBH I don't remember anyone's meta and it's ridiculously stupid logic. I'm not going to stand for it and I don't think you guys should either.
2. I'm voting for the scummiest person. My last game was Titanic and it came down to 3-4 days of "X is scum, Y/Z/Q is scum as well". That led the town way off of the path and allowed my scum team the easiest scum win in a very long time. I don't care if they're not on the two lynch trains that are going to form. It's not instant majority so as long as I feel like I'm voting for the scummiest person in my opinion, I'm going to be happy with my vote.
3. I'm going to do my best to not be just an onlooker. I'm gonna try and facilitate discussion and ask a lot of questions instead of just answering questions and throw my ideas out there and just create more chaos.
On that note, sciberia needs to stop analyzing the first page so hard and just discuss. We're not going to find scum on the first page. You guys just need to talk instead of being at each other's throats 30 minutes into the game.
Don't like this post. Doesn't say anything with a substance.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote:
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:20 Aquanim wrote:
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
@Corazon
I'd like you to elaborate more on why you think sciberbia is scum. I don't entirely understand your argument at present.
He's trying to get us to tunnel each other early so he can just sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others.
This is demonstrated when he essentially copies my post asking thrawn if he was a mason (deliberately, his post was at least 2-3 minutes after mine) and then decides that he can take my words and twist them when I pressure him about it.
This is what troubles me about sciberia right now.
Don't understand what he is trying to say with this. If "us" refers to Scib and Cora, how does he come to the conclusion that Scib can "sit around and piggyback on town lynches and point the finger at others" if Scib is tunneling Cora?
On one hand Cora could be a townie caught in a emotional tunnel. This falls in line with his tone when directly responding to Scib. On the other hand he could be scum. Reserving judgement until he returns and properly answears Sciberbias case and this post.
@Jampidampi: This reads to me like two quotes demonstrating why you don't like Corazon's play so far. How does that leave you on the town side of null? I think you need to flesh this out some more.
This post is odd. It feels like Aqua really wanted to say the first paragraph and inserted the second one to make a post with more substance. If Aqua wanted to address my post with the second pararaph, why wait nearly two hours? Since the motive of this post clearly wasn't to adress my post, it must lie withing the first paragrapgh. The first paragrapgh is just throwing some dirt onto me without stating explicit suspection. The motive behind it is to make me look worse. That, ladies and gentleman, is a scum motive.
@LoneMeow:
Could be more specific about what makes you think Aqua is town? What do you think about the case on him?
Basically, it took me two hours to determine that you weren't coming back and wouldn't elaborate on that point on your own. If you were going to explain yourself without my prompting I wanted to give you that opportunity. Obviously you didn't, and I can't help but notice you haven't answered my question even now. @Jampidampi I'd still like you to answer my question.
Rean
I already knew when I left to sleep that Rean would be voting for me when I came back. Based on his earlier suspicions of me it's the obvious next step to sheep a case someone has obligingly made for him, regardless of his alignment.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 03:04 Rean wrote:
How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler +. And then you go for Corazon with some not terribly convincing arguments such as
This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim
Some other things I really want to adress:
Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia.
That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 16:42 Aquanim wrote:
Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do).
In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it.
##Vote: Rean
I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him.
On November 20 2013 16:08 Rean wrote:
...
To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure.
So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why?
...
On November 20 2013 15:57 Aquanim wrote:
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured?
@Mocsta
If Corazon and sciberbia are both scum, what was their motive for going after one another as they have so early? It's focused a lot of attention on the two of them, and I can't imagine that being what scum wants.
@Rean
Why do you want to see me in particular pressured?
To me you look like you're in the position that if I were scum I'd love: sit back, ask some questions, give some non-commital opinions from time to time and earn easy town credit while not under any real pressure.
So one of your questions back at you: if you had a vig shot that only hit scum, who would you aim it at right now and why?
Probably you. I don't like how easily you swallowed Corazon's case on sciberbia, given that I felt it was sketchy at best. I also don't see any particular purpose behind your posting so far - you've offered some observations when prompted but I don't see you trying to get more information and learn more about the motivations of other players, besides some half-assed and half-hearted pressuring of myself (which you tried to prompt someone else to do).
In fact, the more I think about your filter the less I like it.
##Vote: Rean
I'd give some consideration to shooting Corazon but even if I was convinced he was scum I think I'd learn much more from lynching him than by simply shooting him.
How unexpected. You're put under pressure and you instantly accuse me to try to prove me wrong about you, but 2 posts later you're already looking for arguments to back out of it like + Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 16:48 Aquanim wrote:
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning.
Short answer to Thrawn's case:
I've been messing around a bit and not committing much because I'm concerned, having looked at the players who are yet to post, that if we present them with a fait accompli lynch on Corazon they'd just sheep and we'd learn nothing about them today. I figured that by holding off on my vote and being able to address them from a position of neutrality I might be able to get something out of them.
Obviously this plan has backfired, but I figure if you're going to come after me that gives them an interesting choice to make so hopefully we'll still get something useful out of them.
For the same reason, I voted Rean above for the purposes of running a second wagon and introducing a choice. I'd cheerfully vote Corazon as well, his failure to actually vote for sciberbia despite his constant accusations is pretty damning.
Show nested quote +
This seems awfully weak to me, a case on him at this point is already applying pressure by focussing discussion on him and trying to catch him on a lie. While a vote does put a little extra pressure on it I think saying it's scum-indicative not to vote is really overrating it's importance.On November 20 2013 18:04 Aquanim wrote:The fact that Corazon, despite apparently believing his case, is not committing to it by voting for sciberbia? THAT is scum-indicative.
This, combined with what Thrawn already said (not gonna waste time parroting), really gives me a bad feeling about you. Enough for a ##Vote: Aquanim
Some other things I really want to adress:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 16:55 sciberbia wrote:
EBWOP
Oh yea one other I wanted to reply to was your criticism that I ignored Cora for a while. I stopped prodding Cora because other people were doing a fine job of it and I thought it'd be more productive for them to ask questions such as "explain why you think this about sciberbia" than me doing it. Also I was getting increasingly suspicious of him so I decided to just observe and include my comprehensive thoughts in a later case.
I didn't want to miss the opportunity to question Rean who is probably my second strongest read right now. I find Aquanim's above post on him agreeable.
EBWOP
Oh yea one other I wanted to reply to was your criticism that I ignored Cora for a while. I stopped prodding Cora because other people were doing a fine job of it and I thought it'd be more productive for them to ask questions such as "explain why you think this about sciberbia" than me doing it. Also I was getting increasingly suspicious of him so I decided to just observe and include my comprehensive thoughts in a later case.
I didn't want to miss the opportunity to question Rean who is probably my second strongest read right now. I find Aquanim's above post on him agreeable.
Apparently I'm his second strongest scumread, yet all he's done is ask me a single question very early on in the thread. He has made practically no effort to actually do anything about his "second strongest scum-read". I don't like this at all. Please do explain Sciberbia.
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 17:20 jampidampi wrote:
At this point, what in Sciberias posting came to you as held back?
On November 20 2013 13:19 Rean wrote:
He means that Mocsta is going around calling people scum or town straightup, unlike Sciberia who is more held back.
On November 20 2013 13:14 Bereft wrote:
he wasn't actually calling mocsta scum. just you.
i don't see the distinction between mocsta's explicitly stating and sciberia's "window looking". how were they different? could you expand pls?
he wasn't actually calling mocsta scum. just you.
i don't see the distinction between mocsta's explicitly stating and sciberia's "window looking". how were they different? could you expand pls?
He means that Mocsta is going around calling people scum or town straightup, unlike Sciberia who is more held back.
At this point, what in Sciberias posting came to you as held back?
That he, compared to Mocsta going around calling people "confirmed town" and naming scumteams 5 posts in, seemed to be taking it easy and more the "is most likely to be scum" route. In hindsight held back is probably not the phrase I'm looking for but you know what I mean.
Okay.
1) I'm not backing out of my read on Rean, I'm quite confident he is scum. At the time, I was quite confident on both him and Corazon being scum, and since there were already votes on Corazon I decided I'd vote for Rean to pressure him too. I don't see what problem anybody has with that.
2) "Haven't done anything about my second-strongest scumread"? I put a vote on Rean after satisfying myself he wasn't going to contribute anything meaningful without a nudge, and then he hadn't come back and replied by the time I went to sleep so there was nothing further to do.
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 21 2013 01:16 cDgCorazon wrote:
On Aqua (again):
My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me:
To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place:
It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess.
TL;DR
Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment
Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me
This guy is scum
I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
On Aqua (again):
My problem with Aquanim is that he goes from a very neutral stance on me:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:45 Aquanim wrote:
I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.)
As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information.
I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.
I still want an answer to this from you:
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
I reckon Thrawn's town because I liked the vote on Corazon. That is the kind of action which will get us doing truly productive things. (His unvote doesn't change that.)
As for scum, I'm not sure yet. Not enough information.
I don't much like Corazon's case on sciberbia but I can think of reasons why Corazon would make that argument as town, regardless of how good it is. I'm still null on Corazon but I'm very interested in what he chooses to do next.
I still want an answer to this from you:
On November 20 2013 13:04 Aquanim wrote:
@Rean
Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment?
On November 20 2013 12:55 Rean wrote:
Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.
On November 20 2013 12:52 Bereft wrote:
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far?
Rean, what do you think of Mocsta thus far?
Talks a lot, seems awfully certain of everything he says.
@Rean
Given this, which way are you leaning on Mocsta in terms of alignment?
To an all-out "he's scum!" stance without really having a transition between the two stances. It really troubles me that this was only after all of the cases on me came out. It just looks like Aqua just wants to follow thread sentiment for the big issues and branch out only for things related to his "reads". For example, his case on Rean screams to me that he wants to attack Rean for defending me. His case is weak and he blatantly lies about Rean's questioning of him and calls them not important when in fact he failed to read the reason they were asked in the first place:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 13:36 Rean wrote:
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
Aquanim, you're constantly asking but never saying much about what you think. Gimme one town and one scum and reasons why please.
It's obvious that Aquanim did not read the reason that Rean threw out this post and simply calls Rean scummy for asking this question. This was a good post because Rean wanted to continue discussion and get a read on Aqua who he had felt was not contributing enough information and enough opinions to the conversation. The fact that Aqua calls this scummy is absurd and can only be attributed to his own scumminess.
TL;DR
Changes opinion on me to follow thread sentiment
Attacks Rean (and says his question about town/scum reads accomplishes nothing when in fact it does) for defending me
This guy is scum
I'm confident enough in this case to throw a ##Vote: Aquanim out.
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
Rayn
I don't think there was anything in particular new to address from rayn's vote.
If anyone has anything further for me to adress I'll be around to answer.
Help me out please:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 08:10 Aquanim wrote:
*snip*
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
*snip*
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
*snip*
Corazon
I also figured Corazon's vote was coming, my wagon being a nice alternative to his.
*snip*
1) I changed my opinion on Corazon because new information arose (in this case, that there continued to be no purpose behind his case on sciberbia)
2) I believe my actual stated opinion on Rean's question was that it was an easy question for scum to ask - which is in fact true. I don't claim it accomplished nothing - it is indeed a question I ask often as town. It is a question I would ask often if I was scum, too. The point was that that question was Rean's ONLY attempt to draw information out of the thread, which gives me no reason to think he's town.
3) This guy isn't scum
and 4) It's interesting (and scummy) that all of Corazon's reasons for thinking I'm scum are in some way linked to "attacking Corazon" or "attacking people defending Corazon".
A (red) - I assume the guy that isn't scum is Corazon; otherwise the only person this could be referring to contextually is Rean (which makes zero sense)
B (blue) - If you can state openly Corazon *is* town, why do you proceed with point 4 where you dilute that read? Quite an odd sequence in my mind.
C (green) - I can't follow the progression to this post:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 08:51 Aquanim wrote:
<To Corazon>
I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you since 1) you're likely scum and 2) you've already made up your mind apparently.
+ Show Spoiler [justification] +
<To Corazon>
I'm not sure there's any point in talking to you since 1) you're likely scum and 2) you've already made up your mind apparently.
+ Show Spoiler [justification] +
Actually, you know what? Try justifying some of your wild claims first.
I've explained that I was waiting to see if you were going to back up your sciberbia case with a vote, and when you didn't I became much more suspicious of you. In what way is that smoke and mirrors?
What is your evidence that I wanted town to waste time arguing about you?
My attacking Rean WAS an answer to his question. He wanted to know my scumread - and it was Rean himself. I also had a scumread on you but I thought it would be more useful and I'd learn more by pushing Rean at that time, as I've explained.
Would you care to further explain why you think the argument why Rean is scum is weaker than the argument why I am? You've said that without actually justifying why you think it's so.
Oh, and why shouldn't I try to change the lynch subject when most everyone is voting for me?
I've explained that I was waiting to see if you were going to back up your sciberbia case with a vote, and when you didn't I became much more suspicious of you. In what way is that smoke and mirrors?
What is your evidence that I wanted town to waste time arguing about you?
My attacking Rean WAS an answer to his question. He wanted to know my scumread - and it was Rean himself. I also had a scumread on you but I thought it would be more useful and I'd learn more by pushing Rean at that time, as I've explained.
Would you care to further explain why you think the argument why Rean is scum is weaker than the argument why I am? You've said that without actually justifying why you think it's so.
Oh, and why shouldn't I try to change the lynch subject when most everyone is voting for me?
Yes there is some justification but this is OMGUS at its best.
I also know from the standard of play that you judge others that you would not fall prey to this type of behavior (this I am certain of) henceforth, I can not follow the progression of A to B to C.
The red: Corazon's third argument why I was scum is that "this guy [Aquanim] is scum". I was replying to that point in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.
I am about to do another re-read now I got 3hrs of sleep
Sorry to beat the drum that has been asked several times, I just want a concise summary of your stances so I can cross-reference when I read.
(1) You have had a mild to now strong scum read on Corazon basically all game (developed to strong last say 8 hrs)
(2) You have a mild to now strong scum read on rean basically all game
(3) I dont think there are opinions on anything else?
+ please throw out a read on JJD/Onegu.
To be honest I'm now more confident in Rean scum than Corazon.
Before I went to sleep, pretty much the sum total of Corazon's play was some half-assed push on sciberbia without a vote, which I considered scummy. I'm having some trouble reconciling
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 01:00 cDgCorazon wrote:
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
with
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2013 15:42 cDgCorazon wrote:
...
@sciberia
Put your vote where your mouth is.
...
@sciberia
Put your vote where your mouth is.
but that is the kind of contradiction which I could believe a townie would make.
Since then, however, Corazon's posting has improved somewhat - he's talking about a larger variety of things in the thread and looks more like he's trying to be productive and useful. I'm still not convinced since a fair bit of his volume is devoted to defending his statements rather than doing anything proactive, but that's understandable given how much he's being asked to defend himself. I don't see anything which convinces me as to his alignment either way.
His apparent conviction that I'm scum is a pretty safe view to hold given the current state of the thread. Again, could just be a townie who agrees with other townies, or he could be scum hiding on the obvious wagon. Hard to tell.
Summary of my read on Corazon: I can believe everything Corazon's done so far from a scum Corazon or a town Corazon, though I feel the scum explanation is more likely. I'd prefer to wait for another day to lynch him and try to put together a more conclusive read on him. I'd certainly prefer to lynch him before most people in this game.
+ Show Spoiler +
And before someone shouts "Aqua is jumping off Corazon since the Cora wagon died down", and I know you want to, consider this: both you and I are evaluating Corazon's alignment based on the same information. If both of us shift our opinion about Corazon, that's not me sheeping you - that's me chainging my opinion based on the same information as you.
As for Rean, since I put my vote on him his contributions have been:
1) jumping on my wagon, which he was pretty much obliged to
2) making some shitty point against sciberbia and then defending it against all and sundry - the fact that this point is based around sciberbia having a scum read on Rean is a black mark in my opinion, attacking someone for giving them a scumread is a typical scum move
3) calling out LoneMeow lurking, which as I've said is really, really easy for scum to do
Again, I have no conclusive evidence that Rean is scum, but I'm more confident about him than Corazon. His point against sciberbia really smells to me.
They're both coming after me with a fair dose of confirmation-bias/deliberate-obtuseness, so there's that too.
As regards the other two:
JarJarDrinks
- Original case on Mocsta was not really airtight but not having been there at the time I can understand his argument, even if I don't agree with it.
- Overall he's putting his viewpoint into the thread and defending it effectively when queried.
- He's seeking clarification from Corazon about Cora's original argument against sciberbia, which was indeed unclear. i.e. trying to understand what's going on in the game, when he could have just ignored it and carried on. Major town points.
Conclusion: Likely town.
Onegu
- First post is clearly based on a quick scan of the thread rather than in-depth analysis. I don't know that I'd take it too seriously.
- Suspicion of Mocsta's "thread captaining" is weird, it's not an argument I'd have made and I don't find it convincing. Plenty of townies make arguments I don't find convincing though, so meh.
- Put a lot of work into replying to Mocsta's wallpost, but given how useless that was I don't give it town points.
- Other than that, not a whole lot of effort.
Conclusion: Definitely need to see more effort. If it's not forthcoming, I think he's a decent lynch today, though I'd still prefer Rean or maybe Cora. If he does offer some more reads, activity, etc. I think he could then at least wait for another day.
At this point my lynch is looking quite likely. However, I'm still a townie and I can still be useful to you.
If I go and do something on my own initiative at this point, I reckon whatever it is I'm going to get jumped on by eager scum and confirmation-biased townies. I can still do that if that's what you'd prefer.
I think I can accomplish more if you ask me questions. That way, since you all have the initiative about what I talk about, I won't get jumped on for every post I make for "trying to redirect discussion" or some such rubbish.
At this point, Mocsta and sciberbia, I think this is mostly on you - everyone else here either doesn't want to talk to me or is just lurking. What would you like to talk to me about?
On November 21 2013 11:21 Aquanim wrote:
Do you think it would make more sense for Rean to avoid talking to you about your scumread? Confronting a read like that head-on and attacking is something I've seen scum do before.
(For example, IIRC Spicydinosaur's scum play in NMM XLIII looked quite similar in that regard - when FirmTofu expressed a slight suspicion of him Spicydinosaur attacked him vehemently over it. In particular, Spicydinosaur didn't try to actually refute FT's points against him, but preferred to directly attack FT's play instead. This feels similar to Rean's play here.)
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2013 10:54 sciberbia wrote:
...
The things that give me pause concernign Rean are his activity and overall abrasiveness. Specifically, I don't know why he'd be picking this fight with me if he were scum. Given that I called him scummy, it strategically doesn't make any sense for him to provoke me, and actively engage in discussion with me, just as I said I'm deciding between him and a few others as my top candidate.
...
...
The things that give me pause concernign Rean are his activity and overall abrasiveness. Specifically, I don't know why he'd be picking this fight with me if he were scum. Given that I called him scummy, it strategically doesn't make any sense for him to provoke me, and actively engage in discussion with me, just as I said I'm deciding between him and a few others as my top candidate.
...
Do you think it would make more sense for Rean to avoid talking to you about your scumread? Confronting a read like that head-on and attacking is something I've seen scum do before.
(For example, IIRC Spicydinosaur's scum play in NMM XLIII looked quite similar in that regard - when FirmTofu expressed a slight suspicion of him Spicydinosaur attacked him vehemently over it. In particular, Spicydinosaur didn't try to actually refute FT's points against him, but preferred to directly attack FT's play instead. This feels similar to Rean's play here.)
Read the above quotes. Does it really look like Aquanim has stopped pushing his reads?
Sorry to weigh in.
In my opinion: The action discussed above is null.
Both town and scum realise they need to continue pushing an agenda whilst under pressure.
It comes down to *HOW* aquanim is pushing his agenda.
I haven't made up my mind here, but this question above is what should be asked.
This is basically what i am trying to say, and i have given my opinion on it. Thank you o' wise Mocsta <3
My response was to: brush off the allegations and then provide a counter-case.
When the tunnel was maintained, i resorted to discrediting the accuser, and then either calling the accuser town or scum (based on how i felt). This person I called tunneled town, thus i went back to pushing my counter-case. I disagree with Scibs. I certainly did care who was being lynched in my stead as my story had to be infallible.
As town, I would get butthurt and offend someone thought that i was scum when I am clearly playing town. I will certainly give a read on the accuser and then push a case on someone. I also dont care if my story is infallible or not. because i expect my townieness to shine through.
Aquanim is a different player, so the above may not apply but I like the way he is handling the tenacity of rayn. He could easily have lost his cool by now but he hasnt. I think scum would be absolutely sweating at this point, and Aqua doesnt look like hes breaking a sweat.
