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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
 Glad I made it in time for day one.This is my first ever Mafia game. I've just finished reading all the guidelines, and read & re-read through this thread twice before posting. Excuse me if my style appears too by-the-book for this game as I don't have any precedents to base my rhetoric on. I live in the GMT +2 timezone, and will hopefully be very active as long as I'm awake. I will refrain from posting oneliners, if I'm doing so, it's probably because I'm writing from my mobile. Here are my initial reactions/reads in alphabetical order: Balla24: initially looked suspiciously scummy with what I thought to be an over-the-top aggressive style that tries to win credibility. So far only suggested cracking down on lurkers, which is not necessarily an anti-scum policy as far as I understand. Looks like much talk no action to me, high activity does not presuppose him being a townie. Alert level: ORANGE BigDad: Did make long posts but I can't decide on this one yet. Need to see more posts. Alert level: YELLOW Daywalker: wow, some really good reads by this guy. Certainly gave me a lot of insight and I can clearly follow his line of thinking and argumentation, no bullshit so far. Still, I might be susceptible to manipulation due to my inexperience. Alert level: GREEN JohnnyLaw: Constantly pushes people to cut through the bullshit and make transparent statements so we can get a clear read on them. I think this is extremely good townie behaviour. Alert level: GREEN Onlyboywonder: Three posts so far. Says "My main goal this game is to be more active and contribute meaningful analysis to the town," but is not active at all. Need see more from him before the day is over. Alert level: ORANGE Suki: as pointed out by chinstrap, his "let's go back to hunting smileyface" oneliner is extremely alarming. After this, its almost as if he feigns death and distracts by introducing TheBigDad and theDragoon in a long post without any solid arguments really. Alert level: RED Sidesprang: now here's one that posted three times without actually saying anything. no added-value whatsoever so far. Alert level: RED TheChyz: responded exactly the way I would to Balla's initial aggressively-active attitude, so he didn't ring any alarm bells for me. Came through as a skeptic that got bandwagoned really hard for no tangible reason. Alert level: GREEN TheDragoon: null for me so far. Suspiciously null perhaps? Alert level: YELLOW Suki and Sidesprang are the top contenders for my lynch vote so far, but I will not vote just yet. ----- So, where do we go from here? | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
Other issues: On my re-read of the thread, my thinking/reads were really parallel with Daywalker's initial reads, that's why I enjoyed reading his what I thought to be a rather detailed analysis of the posts so far. Perhaps solid is not the best choice of word indeed. On the issue of coming up with reads on less content, I don't see the problem with this. With TheDragoon, I couldn't get any negative or positive vibes despite his post quantity. Onlyboywonder is pretty self-explanatory I think; he says he will be very active but is not. For sidesprang, I guess you could call it a hunch, it's just that his posts are without any content but he posts away anyway. somewhat offtopic: + Show Spoiler + is there a easy way of accessing people's filters, like i always go to some random page to find someones post and click his filter before I write anything, which is time consuming | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
@Chinstrap, as I mentioned in my initial post, Suki and Sidesprang are my top two contenders right now. If you were to push me for one definite vote, currently I would go with Sidesprang. I find his last three pots really suspicious. Supports Balla in the first two, than just goes AFK without saying much. The third post includes reads that do not actually say anything. It's as if he is actively trying to avoid getting into sticky situations where he might be directed tough questions that would expose him as scum. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
Suki's read: + Show Spoiler + TheDragoon: On January 06 2014 14:45 theDragoon wrote: Acting scummy on purpose is a bit of a stupid plan for a townie, all it does is put a target on your back and force you to defend yourself early, you might get a little insight into how people are reacting to it but it's a really risky move. A risk that a regular townie with no powers should be willing to make. A mafia putting his name out there this early is a bad plan if enough people jump on the bandwagon. I'm conflicted, all TheChyz has done is create confusion. If enough people get off the bandwagon and he turns out to be a mafia, then he's won and the risk he took with putting his name out there would be totally worth it. Whether or not it's true that TheChyz was telling the truth about the whole act like a scum thing, all it's really done is create confusion among the town. ##Vote: TheChyz This post is really WIFOM-y. Not only that, but he doesn't even come to a solid conclusion about TheChyz, essentially saying 'TheChyz's play is confusing so I'm voting for him'. On January 06 2014 15:49 theDragoon wrote: That's enough of a reason to lynch Asuna? I don't see that as good enough to suspect Asuna of being mafia, unless you know more than what you've said there. Those 3 things you listed there is just a sign of an inexperienced player, it has nothing to do with being a scum. Here, Dragoon defends Asuna by hinting that Jonny knows more than what he's said. I think this is a possible scum slip, as only mafia are really ever thinking about hiding information. Here the first point that Dragoon is WIFOM-y is meh. I could see the logic behind thinking about lynching TheChyz if Dragoon believes he creates confusion in town. If he is mafia, well that is good, but if he is not, you just lynch a bad player playing a townie and lift some of the fog. The second point is really far fetched in my opinion, I mean woah, a Freudian slip about hiding information that signals he might be scum. Not my cup of tea. Actually, thinking about this now, don't you think this is suspicious of Suki? Balla's read: You first pressure Dragoon about his usage of "random accusations," which I interpret as a tactic of making him talk more. I am not the type of person that dwells on specific usage of words or concepts as long as I can get a feel of the general argument. Therefore, your pressuring of Dragoon on his word choices seemed unnecessary to me. I don't think you have any other reads than this unless I'm missing something? BigDad's read: He doesn't really have a 'read' on Dragoon, just says he is suspicious of Dragoon because a reply of his does not "nourish conversation but rather stifle's it" (I do agree with this initial suspicion). However, I do not see where Dragoon dodges certain questions that would make him look suspicious? ---------- @Dragoon: What does this mean, could you expand on this please? "@TheChyz I also find it a bit odd that derrida doesn't think you are suspicious. If he was mafia, then jumping on TheChyz bandwagon would be the easiest thing to do..." --going for a 3x02 sherlock break, be back in about 90 minutes-- | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
I've been asked both by TheChyz and Balla about why I thought TheChyz was not scummy. I just re-read through his filter, I still don't think he is scummy. It is a tough question to disprove him not being a scum though, isn't it? Not fair. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
By the way, I would like to re-iterate this point by Balla: "Anyways, since we have a huge timezone gap for some people, we need to consolidate on a few lynch targets TODAY, so that the people who can't be around here for the deadline will be able to hopefully make their votes meaningful. This means I want everyone's votes out on someone by the end of the day, obviously not final." While I do not like the attitude, I do like the idea. When would a tentative deadline be, for example? Oh and Balla, what do you mean by "people like BigDad"? | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
@Balla, with your definition of WIFOM, the whole thread (in the eyes of a townie) becomes WIFOM because of the information asymmetry, especially in Day 1 where s/he KNOWS (not deduces/interprets) nothing. That's why I thought TheChyz's 'opener' was no scummy in relation to any other opener. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
"Onlywonderboy because I reread his filter from the scum perspective, and I could see it making sense as scum play." | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
## Vote TheDragoon Off to sleep, afk for 8ish hours. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
Here are my initial replies and reactions after reading filters of everyone once again: @Dragoon: @Derrida Voting for me without any explanation? You flagged me as yellow earlier and even brought up the possibility of me being a bad player then going straight for me because everyone else is. I get trying to get rid of bad players but the goal of the game is to eliminate mafia through lynching or character powers. You come at me for "voting without any explanation" even though I did provide the causality behind my vote: "leaped from an /offtopic discussion to an /ontopic demagogy by your 'You will all see when I get lynched tomorrow that this "distancing theory' is completely dumbfounded" line" and "I've already stated my top two scum candidates in my list, that alone is commitment enough. Although I have to say that the option to lynch an imploding townie or an imploding townie acting scum seems like a win-win situation to me." Note sure how I can explain any more than that? The self-vote and then the 180 degree reversal to shift the gaze on Suki, BigDad, myself, and DW does not have any credibility in my eyes. I still see your lynch as a win-win situation this morning, with the possible further upside of providing further information on Suki if you flip townie (who was RED ALERT status on my initial list). So the main reason why I think he's scum is because he just jumped on me, providing no reason then leaving the game to sleep. He doesn't give us time to question his decision. Well excuse me (not really) for jumping on you when you self-destruct or just play that card. I'm not sure how jumping on you may be interpreted as a sign of anything, I would prefer to not play with people that constantly exercise demagoguery (earlier comments on RL mafia being different, you being inexperienced etc.) and who vote for themselves. It was 2 AM when I was pressured by Balla to vote, and I decided not to derail further as I was going to sleep soon. I'm here right now until voting deadline to answer any other questions and/or clarify further if you wish. @Balla, I find Derrida pretty scummy. Eh, care to expand? ----- On a side note, Sidesprang's filter is stil ringing all kinds of alarm bells for me. AFK for 24+ hours, comes in to vote Dragoon with a justification similar to mine, then just pokes at Dragoon some wishy-washy questions that do not contribute anything to the discussion. If Dragoon is lynched and turns out Mafia, I would bet my house on Sidesprang to be Mafia as well, dat bus. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
will you wake up before the vote deadline or is your vote final? | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
@chinstrap when you say "scummiest looking guy" do you mean dragoon or DW? | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
If I was around I would have definitely changed my vote after reading this: + Show Spoiler + I have to go soon, so here's my last word. I can't tell you guys how to think or how to use the information gained from me dying but I want to ask you guys to question your analysis. You will all be wrong in thinking I am scum, some of you, I feel, tried too hard to make something out of nothing. What I'm mostly referring to here is "scum buddy", defending Asuna, and "scum slip". I don't think you should target those who made cases against me because I feel like they were just making something out of nothing. My opinion is probably meaningless at this point but here is my scum ranking from most to least scummy: onlywonderboy, dnyarri, Day_Walker, Balla24, sidesprang, BigDad, Derrida, TheChyz, suki, JonnyLaw, Asuna, chinstrap This is my first game, really sad that I will die so early. I made mistakes which eventually led to my downfall, it doesn't help the fact that people overanalyzed my posts and made something out of nothing. I may seem scummy to some of you, but that's because you are actively looking for scum and trying to find anything you can use to get someone. I hope you reread my filter from a townie perspective and see that I was just really new to this. ggwp, gl town I hope you get it right next time. This just SHOUTS townie no matter how last minute, I wouldn't believe that the Dragoon could fake this act if he was scum given his previous level of reads. The foundation of my vote on him was that it was a "win-win situation," but reading his filter, it is clear that his analyses are improving as the game develops. I would probably unvote Dragoon, so I'm curious why more people who were present at the time of the deadline did not back down? Going through the final hour, it seems only Balla was actively there who didn't switch his vote, which is suspicious on its own, but his reaction to the switch is just odd, and he later apologizes for his "heated" reaction, which is odd once again because I mean come on, it wasn't that heated of a moment, was it? Day_Walker has came to Balla's aid by claiming that "I think suki and Balla look better after this, unconditionally. If I'm scum and I'm watching a vote swing away from a townie, I don't think I would impulsively blurt out an "Argh what the hell" or a "NO FUCK OFF YOU GUYS", regardless of the new target's alignment. But, for me, if someone was to do this, it would be Balla who has been consistently spearheading discussion, pressuring people, and doing in-depth analysis. It just seems that he is the most experienced and/or better player here, which means that such a move would may only be expected of him if he was scum, now he is guaranteed townie in everyones eyes. I mean how does that switch hurt Balla, and why does he just react that way? Which brings me to my next point; why did Jonny switch his vote? Seems as if the only thing that came out of his switch was Balla's reaction, which confirmed him townie in people's eyes. It seems as if this was a coordinated play by two good players to anchor themselves as townies and drag the town into mayhem. Now, even though I would unvote Dragoon, I don't see the point of jumping on the Dnyarri bandwagon just to policy lynch lurkers. It is true that he did not bring much to the table, but the fact that he was the first to vote on Dragoon (pointed raised by Jonny), doesn't say much about him to lynch. It is something to lynch him for lurking, but I mean switching your vote because he was the first to vote for Dragoon is something completely different. In his vote for Dragoon, Dnyarri says: Actually I have changed my primary target of suspicion from TheChyz to TheDragoon mainly because of this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434723¤tpage=16#316 TheDragoon stated that Day_Walker seemed like innocent even though Day_Walker had only posted one list and nothing else. Day_Walker's only vote is against TheChyz which doesn't mean much since TheChyz is easy bandwagoning target. TheDragoon's post give me the impression that he wants to slow voting down by defending (random) people while going to TheChyz-bandwagon and attacking nobody else. TheChyz is confusing but I'm not sure if it's carelessness or risk taking. My logic for calling him scum was somewhat faulted too I think. ##unvote ##vote: TheDragoon In my opinion this is just bad play and faulty analysis on the part of Dnyarri made just to have said something. Furthermore, noone jumps on this bandwagon by quoting Dnyarri so it is further irrelevant that Dnyarri was the one to vote first on Dragoon, which makes Jonny's switch even more suspicious. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
It is one thing to lynch him for lurking, but I mean switching your vote because he was the first to vote for Dragoon is something completely different. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
I wanted to observe the behavior of my two initial “red flagged” suspects in their natural habitat without any pressure on them. Besides, I do not like voting in a way that makes your vote insignificant, and as I have expressed numerous times I considered Dragoon’s lynch a “win-win” situation at the time. If I was around at the time of Dragoon’s latest post before he gets lynched, I would have switched my vote not to Dnyarri, but to Sidesprang for reasons I also elaborated earlier: On a side note, Sidesprang's filter is stil ringing all kinds of alarm bells for me. AFK for 24+ hours, comes in to vote Dragoon with a justification similar to mine, then just pokes at Dragoon some wishy-washy questions that do not contribute anything to the discussion. My concerns about Sidesprang continue in the post-lynch period given his lack of analysis once again. Something is just not right, he comes in for a short paragraph, asks Dnyarri about the switch, and poof, he’s gone once again. He is my currently third scum candidate. Regarding you, I still have my doubts. You were so adamant that Dragoon would turn scum before lynch and defended your position vs. Balla (here it is once again weird that Balla questions your level of clarity but does not switch his vote before lynch even after Dragoons final post). I would like to hear where you think your analysis have failed regarding Dragoon being a scum, and what are the implications of this. You are still a "red flag" but I have higher priorities right now in the form of Balla, Jonny as top 2 scums, and Sidesprang as the inactive third lurker. Jonny, in his four pages of talks, does not talk about Sidesprang ONCE. Balla does not have anything either. Just look at this: Would totally lynch sidesprang for lurking if I didn't feel like i had some good scum reads btw, just as a backup.. For sidesprang, i keep flip flopping on him Balla then once again mentions Sidesprang for lurking, but shifts the debate towards me and Sidesprang is off Balla’s mighty hook just that easy. Balla does not have a read/analysis on Sidesprang in his 12 pages of posts. What.the.hell? What happened to his initial proposed policy of lynching lurkers to make it harder for scums to lurk? | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
On January 07 2014 18:50 Balla24 wrote: you have certainly taught me well. these lurkers aren't even half as bad as we had in that first game either... I guess I shouldn't be worried about it... especially since sidesprang is definitely making enough of a contribution to read him Yet, does not post a read on Sidesprang. | ||
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
I'm glad I completely made up random shit at start so when I died my stuff was not traced to my scumbuddies  | ||
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