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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:41 Oatsmaster wrote:I guess Ill just wait for smarter people to show up then. Show nested quote +I don't say holy flare is a complete and total idiot that is bad at mafia. Another lie from oats. The point I'm getting at is, the noob card is not an auto scum read, and honestly, although I find it scummy, my reaction isn't to vote him then use that as an opportunity to opt out of the thread. I use it as an opportunity to opt INTO the thread.
I dont understand what opting in and out of the thread means. Can super obviously town BH explain?
Sure, I'll explain. The point I'm getting at here is that you chose to make a vote and to act in such a way that you did not seriously interact with your scum target. You didn't talk to HF, you didn't try to get him to post reads or to develop your read on him. You wrote a post then opted out of the discourse-- you wrote something that would look like a contribution without seriously convincing other players or learning more about your target. The goal of a townie is to promote a good discussion and learn more about what people have to say, what they think, and so on. When you see someone play the newb card (which, apparently, is a SUPER obvious scumtell) and that person is literally new, your reaction shouldn't be "ah-hah! i'm done thinking!" but rather, an opt-IN. it should be "ah-hah! time to learn more!"
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:42 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +the point i'm getting at here isn't that having a strong stance early on is scummy. THIS IS NOT MY POINT. STOP LYING AND STATING THAT IT IS MY POINT. my point is the lack of follow-up, the lack of interaction with the guy being voted or the guy not voting him. After all, if I REALLY do think holyflare is scummy, you should be all over me trying to refine my scumread on him. I shouldn't have to twist your arm to get you to do this.
So you vote for someone then you ask him to explain? If I think a guy is scum, then why do I have to have interaction with him? And if everyone else in the thread thinks the same way, then why do I have to have interaction with them?
The answer seems obvious to me. Your goal is to establish the alignment of the guy you have a scumread on. Sure, you think he's scum, but you don't KNOW. So you talk with him. You talk with other players and try to convince them. Maybe they support you, maybe they point out how he's scummier or townier than you thought. In these interactions, most people betray what alignment they are through how they think-- be they town or scum. The goal is to develop a co-operative discourse in which people all have solid reads on each other. It involves an acknowledgement that part of what writing a case and voting is, is pressure-- it's developing your read.
On October 02 2013 13:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Its funny that you played with me all these games with me BH, and you still dont know I exaggerate the hell out of my stuff.
When you lie, I will call you a liar. Quote me instead of putting words in my mouth.
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And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
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On October 02 2013 13:47 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:42 Oatsmaster wrote:the point i'm getting at here isn't that having a strong stance early on is scummy. THIS IS NOT MY POINT. STOP LYING AND STATING THAT IT IS MY POINT. my point is the lack of follow-up, the lack of interaction with the guy being voted or the guy not voting him. After all, if I REALLY do think holyflare is scummy, you should be all over me trying to refine my scumread on him. I shouldn't have to twist your arm to get you to do this.
So you vote for someone then you ask him to explain? If I think a guy is scum, then why do I have to have interaction with him? And if everyone else in the thread thinks the same way, then why do I have to have interaction with them? The answer seems obvious to me. Your goal is to establish the alignment of the guy you have a scumread on. Sure, you think he's scum, but you don't KNOW. So you talk with him. You talk with other players and try to convince them. Maybe they support you, maybe they point out how he's scummier or townier than you thought. In these interactions, most people betray what alignment they are through how they think-- be they town or scum. The goal is to develop a co-operative discourse in which people all have solid reads on each other. It involves an acknowledgement that part of what writing a case and voting is, is pressure-- it's developing your read. Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Its funny that you played with me all these games with me BH, and you still dont know I exaggerate the hell out of my stuff.
When you lie, I will call you a liar. Quote me instead of putting words in my mouth.
oh dude, I know that Holyflare is scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied.
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Lets say that I use the noob card to explain why Im bad. Is that scummy BH?
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On October 02 2013 13:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied.
Im not saying you voted me because of that BH. You liar.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:48 Oatsmaster wrote:
Lets say that I use the noob card to explain why Im bad. Is that scummy BH?
Sure. And holyflare using the noob card is scummy as well. Generally, you can't excuse bad play by being a noob (as holyflare is) or being bad. The only solution is to try to play better. Playing the noob card is spending text explicitly asking for mercy without giving a legitimate reason for it.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:49 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:48 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied. Im not saying you voted me because of that BH. You liar.
I didn't say you said I voted you because you lied. huehuehuehue
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On October 02 2013 13:51 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:49 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:48 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
And I dont do what you just described in all of my town games and probably all of my scumgames?
I'm not voting you because you lied, Oats. I'm calling you a liar because you lied. Im not saying you voted me because of that BH. You liar. I didn't say you said I voted you because you lied. huehuehuehue
I guess you dont understand english.
Oh well.
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Ok, I have no idea what I just read. BH can you roughly rank your reads? I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish right now.
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Why do you think Holyflare might be town BH?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
1) oats scum
2) risen scummy
also 2) FT scummy
that being said, take all that with a grain of salt. most players haven't posted.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
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On October 02 2013 13:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Why do you think Holyflare might be town BH?
Let me rephrase this so we dont have any misunderstandings.
Are there any reasons for you to think that Holyflare might be town?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Why do you think Holyflare might be town BH?
YES THIS IS WAHT IM TALKING ABOUT
So, I think there's a legitimate non-zero chance that he played the newb card because he is simply a newbie. It happens. The fact that he flailed around ineffectually at Risen and that when asked to analyzed Risen, he reached, are the two big things imo that contribute to my scummish read on HF. I think he might be town because the scummy evidence against him isn't strong enough to convince me he's scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:54 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Why do you think Holyflare might be town BH? Let me rephrase this so we dont have any misunderstandings. Are there any reasons for you to think that Holyflare might be town?
Well, he's literally a newb. Although his attempt to interact with me and get a read on risen was pretty bad and scummy, he did at least try.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
On October 02 2013 13:34 Blazinghand wrote:
@Holyflare: weigh in now on these interactions. state opinions, draw / refine reads, interact with the people voting you. refine your reads on them, and their reads on you.
I live in the UK so my timezones are a bit off from yours. That being said.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2013 13:36 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:31 Blazinghand wrote:
Look, Oats, you have to admit, it IS pretty weird that Risen hasn't been trying to convince me, right? Like, even drawing some weird unflipped associative tell shit you can't just go and say "I'm not going to try to convince BH, who's literally in the thread right now and rather influential as a town player, that HF is scum". You also have to admit, do you not, that given that holyflare IS LITERALLY A NEWBIE, it's possible he doesn't get what playing the newb card means? It's possible that yes, the reaction should be suspicion, but also an attempt to draw him into conversation? That not doing that is sub-optimal, and therefore scummy? Literally a newbie doesnt mean you play the noob card unless you think it helps you. I only remember playing the noob card in my first few scumgames but none of my towngames because it served no purpose. Why do you think Holyflare is a complete and total idiot that is bad at mafia?
I find Oats the most confusing player here, and by confusing, I mean a person with scumlike tendencies from what I can read. I mentioned one thing in one post and the rest of my posts have been trying to stimulate some other topics of discussion, yet, he is still adament that I've been calling myself a noob this entire time.
The thing that drives me to suspicions is the fact that he has linked me and BH together as a scum team (why would either of us be that bad), and has had not so much interaction with me but a lot with BH.
On October 02 2013 13:26 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 13:23 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:20 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:17 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:On October 02 2013 13:15 Oatsmaster wrote:On October 02 2013 13:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Really when I think about it I still want to lynch Oats, beyond just the RNG. His decision to OMGUS and throw suspicion on me is pretty retarded, and though I could see a town oats (since oats is an irrational player) doing something like that out of spite and misery, this is more likely to come from scum who's just pissed to be nailed by RNG. I'm gonna stick with my vote on him for now. What the fuck BH? Where did I say you were bad in the post I called you scummy in? This post makes no sense. None. What's your read on Risen? null ~~ town Why? Cause he doesnt hop on the RNG lynch wagon. And cause he called Holyflare scum. I personally do not find either of these reasons compelling. A decision to hop or not hop on the RNG lynch wagon is dependent on personal ideas about how useful RNG is, and whether or not it paints someone as scummy depends on their reasoning and history, not the simple fact that they did or did not hop on. Calling holyflare scum, likewise, is not in and of itself a good strat. I too don't like holyflare's play, but you think I am scum, and it is almost certainly because of my interactions with holyflare. Instead of calling him a newb card player and voting him, as risen did, without serious explanation and an attempt to help him, I actually interacted with him seriously. playing the newb card is also something newbies do. the optimal response is mine, not risen's. Mine determines holyflare's alignment. Risen did not attempt to suss out what was up with holyflare. he laid some smackdown, but hasn't seriously followed it up. Where is he in convincing me to vote holyflare as I interact with holyflare? After all, he thinks holyflare is scum, no? I find risen scummy for that reason. I think you're scum for pulling the RNG bullshit again. I didnt attempt to find out what was up with holyflare, I laid some smackdown! So am I scum for that too? Holyflare is scum because he instantly jumps on a policy and then writes a whole bunch of stuff saying he is a noob. Without actually saying those words.
He even says so himself, he hasn't attempted to find what's up with me (even though I posted why I liked RNG voting specifically for my case) yet, here: On October 02 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
Stifling discussion is top scum play for calling someone scummy when they are being agressive and shit.
Holyflare is the right lynch!. it's the top scum play to stifle discussion. With his sure stance on me being scum and despite me resonding why I posted what I did is it not he who is in fact stifling the discussion?
His posts do not analyse or point out reasonings, they state. He has responded poorly to questions arisen from BH, and even though BH and me are supposedly a scum team, it's enough for his vote to stay on me despite the constant accusatory nature he has against BH from the posts he see's.
Not to mention; On October 02 2013 13:42 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +the point i'm getting at here isn't that having a strong stance early on is scummy. THIS IS NOT MY POINT. STOP LYING AND STATING THAT IT IS MY POINT. my point is the lack of follow-up, the lack of interaction with the guy being voted or the guy not voting him. After all, if I REALLY do think holyflare is scummy, you should be all over me trying to refine my scumread on him. I shouldn't have to twist your arm to get you to do this.
So you vote for someone then you ask him to explain? If I think a guy is scum, then why do I have to have interaction with him? And if everyone else in the thread thinks the same way, then why do I have to have interaction with them? If you think (you said you KNEW) a person was scum, your orientation as a townsman should be to prove to your allies that the person is in fact scum. If you do not interact with the person at all how can you garner anymore information than the one post you base your entire 'analysis' on? The fact that you say everyone else agrees with you in this thread is just testament to the fact that you have put no effort or thought into your stance and are just going with the flow to follow up for an 'easy' lynch.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Really i currently for example have no reason whatsoever to believe, say, Sloosh is town, since he hasn't really posted, but that doesn't mean I'll vote him. in my opinion there needs to be a certain critical mass of evidence before i'm willing to cast a vote, even a pressure vote.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
Wanted to get this part out there before I moved onto more as you're moving pretty quickly.
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EPT
