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I think KPs should start to be used like 5-10 hours before the deadline. Like this:
1) Shoot a lurker 2) Still alive? Repeat 3) Dead? Choose next
By leaving some time between the KP and the lynch, the KP flip can help in deciding the lynch as well.
But we should wait some more to give the most useless lurkers a final chance. GET POSTING OR PREPARE TO DIE, USELESS TRASH!
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On August 09 2013 16:19 Oatsmaster wrote: So which lurker do you want to die Xata?
Not gumshoe for now. He was pretty townish and active during N0. Dunno why he started an AFK streak again. Get back here, please.
Kush would be good. He has posted nothing useful so far even though he has followed the game.
Sharrant etc. hardcore lurkers would be good.
I'm on my phone right now so this is from the top of my head. If someone has their N0 behaviours or such to share, please do.
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On August 09 2013 16:38 Oatsmaster wrote: I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.
So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right? Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree.
Maybe FT would be better over total non-posters like Nacho. The point is, I agree with iamperfection that lurkers and other anti-town players should be punished to make it harder for scum to hide among them or with their help. But KP is much better suited for that than the lynch. It's also easier to coordinate the KPs to take down lurkers instead of random players. It's a HP game after all. The lynch should be on the most scummy player, but the KP can be used for policy (partly - since lurkers have a higher chance of being scum than active players).
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On August 09 2013 16:55 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 11:15 s0Lstice wrote:On August 09 2013 06:53 Clarity_nl wrote: Why is this conversation happening in the thread as opposed to pms?
#Trafficcop Clarity my boy. I see no reason not to assume that you think your play so far has been pro-town. With that said, what are you doing here? If your thread directing is useful and pro-town, what is with the self-conscious acknowledgement of the behavior? If it's protown then you should just be carrying on. It seems like you have some inherent guilt here. Merely poking fun at you for calling me a traffic cop. Ofcourse I become aware of it when you point it out. I don't know how that's inherent guilt, or why, as any alignment, I would feel guilty for trying to avoid people shitting up the thread. Are you calling me scum, or are you just pointing out something as "noteworthy"? If you're gonna push something, push it. Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:35 Chromatically wrote: Why isn't everyone voting Sol already? I agree with this. The rayn/acro shitfest that happened was dumb. One side saying that the other is COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTING ME when they use a slightly different word or interpretation is useless. I dunno why you guys are voting eachother, but please find out if your vote is to lynch or if your vote is OMGUS. rayn saying "I'll reconsider my read if you tell me the plan" can easily come from town Likewise, acro being protective of his plan seems more likely town than scum. Issues with oberyn not withstanding (he called it a joint effort so you think he's scum?) In fact, oberyn..... please walk me through this You vote him because he is buddying up to you.. fair enough I guess? Not sure how that makes him more likely scum that solstice but let's roll with it. Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote: I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.
I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:
##Unvote ##Vote Acrofales Then you emphasize the buddying up part: Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 08:50 Oberyn wrote:On August 09 2013 08:24 Acrofales wrote:On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote: I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.
I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:
##Unvote ##Vote Acrofales What the hell are you smoking? Here is the first thing you sent to me about using magic: Onegu told me that he wants to use the hp check on day one, which would give the mafia an idea of how many kp it takes to eliminate a player with their night hits. I've had a town read on him otherwise. Do you think there is any benefit to wanting to use it early as town?
Here is your second missive, after my reply: You say that it is important for us to know to coordinate our shots, but then want to use it on your own hosue? Does that suggest that you want the Lords to fire in your house? Wouldn't it make more sense to use it on the house you want to fire into? And MY REPLY to that is the plan. After this we have not communicated about using the magic, and were discussing Yamato. Exactly. Nothing there points to us working together on come to your plan. It gives me the creeps that you decide to bring up three different times that I helped formulate the idea as if we're working behind the scenes to come up with something incredibly pro-town. I feel like you're buddying up to me in that sense. Furthermore, the plan isn't so great that you have to keep it a secret from rayn. You're overstating your contribution right now. On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote: Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with a way of potentially foiling a Blackfyre plot by using our life check magic? On August 09 2013 08:11 Acrofales wrote: I also made an allusion to the plan concocted by Sharrant, the Red Viper and myself On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote: Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with. All is cool up until this point. He's buddying up to you, he's overstating his contributions. These are decent points. Here comes the thing I have an issue with though: Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 09:02 Oberyn wrote: More on Acrofales:
I first contact him via pm's because I found his conclusion that DI and koshi are both town quite puzzling. When I asked about it futher, he explained that he doesn't think DI truly thinks that sol and koshi are scum, he is simply pressuring them. Based on DI's emotional tunnel, I certainly do not draw the same conclusion. He also inadequately explains why koshi is town. He states that DI is overreacting on his views about koshi., but how is this indicative of koshi's alignment? He states that he isn't interested in considering a koshi lynch, but doesn't provide a solid reason. Furthermore, if you earlier thought that DI was faking his read on koshi to pressure him, how is he suddenly overreacting on his read? That's a contradiction.
Initially, he thought that it was a good idea to use the health check simply to figure out the hp system. This is incredibly anti-town. When I attack him for his plan, he quickly drops it.
Acro's house is a slew of inactives, but he has shown little interest in dealing with them.
In the thread, Acro has said a lot of nothing. He is using the role playing nonsense to cover up the fact that he isn't sharing many strong reads. I see little reason why he shouldn't be considered for a lynch today.
Suddenly every interaction you've ever had with acro points to him being scum? Why didn't we hear from this earlier? You had not mentioned any of these points until now. Could anyone from Oberyn's house say if he ever mentioned these things before, and whether or not he talked about acro possibly being scum? You had a vote on him for one concise reason, implying you could lynch him for just that reason, and then you felt the need to suddenly attach 5 more reasons. Why is that, Oberyn?
Are you implying that Oberyn is scum because he's adding more points to his own case later on?
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On August 09 2013 17:47 Clarity_nl wrote: Yes.
If he believed him to be scum enough to vote him over solstice (while stating he's still suspicious of solstice) why does he feel the need to add more reasons to his vote?
Hmmm. I don't really see that as a scum-only motivation. Scum would certainly have reason to pile more suspicion on their target after selecting him, but similarly town can be consumed by confirmation bias and focus on convincing others of their read. Look at Dandel Ion's tunnel on Koshi, for example.
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On August 09 2013 17:59 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 16:38 Oatsmaster wrote: I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.
So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right? Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree. Really? What indicates to you that he will? btw, I'm fully in favor of policy nk'ing lurkers. imo we should agree on 3 of them and have 2 houses shoot them respectively. Or maybe 2 with 3 shooting each? Hard to tell how much you need to kill them, 2 targets seems "safer" to result in something. Just try one out and see what happens. The specific distribution can be made in secret, dunno if that'd have an impact but i dont think it really matters to the thread who shoots who until after it's done (so we can see who didn't kill who), which might as well be claimed after. There's literally no downside to this.
No need to waste extra KP on anyone. Just shoot until he's dead, then move on? Shouldn't the player die immediately (or soon) after receiving a fatal amount of KP?
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On August 09 2013 17:56 Clarity_nl wrote: Let me put it this way.
In chronological order:
1. He takes advantage of the mess rayn and acro have created by voting for acro 2. He then goes back and explains why his reasoning in his votepost makes sense (this is fine) 3. He now shows that he went back and looked at his interactions with acro
Why did he not look back at the interactions before voting him? Surely you look back at it BEFORE you vote someone? I believe he is scum who tried to take advantage of the situation, and acted too quickly, started doubting that the reasons he posted in thread looked genuine, so he went back and slapped on everything that he could twist to look scummy. He had not mentioned acro at all before this point.
If anyone has received pms from oberyn in which he expresses concern of acro being scum prior to the rayn/acro outburst then I might be willing to change my mind on this.
Actually it does make more sense from a scum perspective. Kind of opportunistic and then very confirmation biased after already deciding earlier. It wouldn't be so strange if he had a strong reason to suspect Acro originally, but it pretty much came out of nowhere, didn't it? I wouldn't say he's definitely scum for this, more like slightly scummy, since it's certainly possible that he as town just started to tunnel Acro.
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On August 09 2013 18:00 Grackaroni wrote:Finally read the thread, I am most suspicious of Jrkirby. First off Nobody in House Martell has gotten a good read off of him because nobody in House Martell really talked to each. The best contribution in thread he made was calling out S0lstice for not electing his town read and naming 2 people town who the majority of town has already agreed were town. After that he started making posts such Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 06:35 jrkirby wrote: Finally, why have all the houses not posted a list of their members yet?
I think that it's actually beneficial to town to post these lists, and here's why:
1) Once scum have a list of 5 of the houses, they have a list of every house.
2) in a 24 player game, scum almost guaranteed have 4-6 members. Scum are spread out (I think it's random or something, right?) so they already know probably 3-4 houses at the start.
3) 2 (or is it 3?) houses have already posted their list. There's a good chance this fills in the missing info for scum.
4) All the house lists will probably be posted by day 2 anyway. Scum will only be missing this info for a short time.
5) Scum know all the lords already. This further helps them fill in the gaps.
6) Knowing the houses is not too beneficial to scum. Scum are more likely to want to eliminate every non-scum player in a house than an entire house (based off my possibly flawed logic - they can use this to WIFOM, be careful).
7) Knowing the houses is beneficial to town. We can help predict who will be lord in later days, we can help predict who is likely to be shot. We know who can PM a certain player, so it's easier to find people with reads on them. We don't think two people are on a scumteam together when they're just house buddies. Things are simpler, we don't get confused when REDACTED is posted. The list goes on.
8) Displaying all houses gives more info to town than it gives to scum.
9) Transparency is beneficial to town, and giving out house lists helps with transparency.
I can think of one good reason why we might not want to give out house lists:
1) There might be 3P that wants to eliminate a house, or secondary objectives for scum to eliminate a house. This is entirely speculation though, so I don't put too much weight into it. This is a post that I would be ok with if it was in the start of the game, but he chose to talk about this during a time when scumhunting was actually taking place and he could actually participate in conversation. Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 06:41 jrkirby wrote: One question I would like to ask the thread: Does anyone KNOW how much HP they have? I do not know how much HP I have. If you know, obviously I'm not asking you to announce how much HP you have to the thread. Actually, don't even say that you know how much HP you have. I just want to announce that I do not know how much HP I have.
This could be beneficial to town because then they can do better speculation on what people's roles are like. Choosing to talk about setup rather than scumhunting and he has already disappeared without really pressuring or conversing with anybody Everyone else has seemed engaged in the current conversations and actively scumhunting and these posts just didn't fit in with what I think a townie would be posting about during the time of the thread. He seems like he is more interested in blending into town than scumhunting. There was an exchange between Oats and Yamato at the start of the game that rubbed me the wrong way. It was so disruptive and anti-town, that I have trouble believing that it came from 2 town players. It didn't seem normal to me and I even got a little bit of a staged feeling (as in they could be both scum randomly attacking each other at the start of the game). I think remember someone claiming they were probably town for being aggressive but some scum are more comfortable getting in arguments with people to help buff up their post count and mask their lack of contributions. @Xata/Clarity/anyone awake. Is there anybody you would like me to comment on before i go to bed?
I certainly don't like jrkirby's weak thread presence. It's also weird to be so focused on setup, HP and such. He isn't even a Lord, so why is he interested in players' HP? Maybe he's scum?
In any case, grackaroni, what do you think of s0Lstice, Koshi, Acro and Oberyn?
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On August 09 2013 18:15 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 18:07 Xatalos wrote:On August 09 2013 17:59 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 09 2013 16:38 Oatsmaster wrote: I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.
So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right? Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree. Really? What indicates to you that he will? btw, I'm fully in favor of policy nk'ing lurkers. imo we should agree on 3 of them and have 2 houses shoot them respectively. Or maybe 2 with 3 shooting each? Hard to tell how much you need to kill them, 2 targets seems "safer" to result in something. Just try one out and see what happens. The specific distribution can be made in secret, dunno if that'd have an impact but i dont think it really matters to the thread who shoots who until after it's done (so we can see who didn't kill who), which might as well be claimed after. There's literally no downside to this. No need to waste extra KP on anyone. Just shoot until he's dead, then move on? Shouldn't the player die immediately (or soon) after receiving a fatal amount of KP? Why would you drag it out over multiple cycles? that only muddies the waters.
Lord KP is instant and can be used at any time.
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Release the Gracken!
Rayn, are you sure? That's not how I understood the rules at all. DrParnassus, what's your take on this matter?
"Each house has an X kp shot every night cycle (combined, so shot every 72 hours) which is used by whoever is currently lord. They must pm the mods to send in the house kp and the action will go through as soon as a mod sees the pm."
Since Oberyn already suspected Acro before coming to the conclusion of voting for him, I don't think it's really unnatural to tunnel for a bit and search for more reasons for Acro to be scum. I've done that as town and as scum, so I don't think it's too alignment indicative. I think it's more suspicious to avoid currently relevant topics, as DI mentioned.
iamperfection, are you still vouching for a lurker lynch? Wouldn't KP fit that task much better?
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Wait, it does say "night cycle". I might have misunderstood myself.
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On August 09 2013 20:29 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:19 Xatalos wrote: Release the Gracken!
Rayn, are you sure? That's not how I understood the rules at all. DrParnassus, what's your take on this matter?
"Each house has an X kp shot every night cycle (combined, so shot every 72 hours) which is used by whoever is currently lord. They must pm the mods to send in the house kp and the action will go through as soon as a mod sees the pm."
Since Oberyn already suspected Acro before coming to the conclusion of voting for him, I don't think it's really unnatural to tunnel for a bit and search for more reasons for Acro to be scum. I've done that as town and as scum, so I don't think it's too alignment indicative. I think it's more suspicious to avoid currently relevant topics, as DI mentioned.
iamperfection, are you still vouching for a lurker lynch? Wouldn't KP fit that task much better? You don't think is weird that even though acro told oberyn that he thought the hp check was on a person rather than a house, oberyn failed to mention this in his post? Oberyn told rayn that if acro was speaking the truth about that, it's not anti-town. He also failed to mention any of the reasons he posted in thread to rayn, even though he was supposedly discussing his read with rayn, enough so that he didn't want rayn to tell anyone else his thoughts.
Hmmm... When you put it like that, it seems like Oberyn was trying to paint Acro as scum no matter what. That's clearly scum motivated rather than town motivated. On the other hand, I think Acro *is* quite suspicious. It feels unlikely that they are both scum, but one of them could well be. I'd still put Acro ahead of Oberyn, and Oberyn's weird confirmation bias might just be misguided/emotional town play. Him not participating in current/ongoing topics is a bit more worrying though. If Oberyn is scum, then Acro most probably isn't. Actually I think they are somewhat equal in their chances of flipping scum, hard to say. Acro's forgettable entrance to the thread, weak case on rayn and overall relative uselessness puts him probably slightly ahead. His activity is good though, so he's not an optimal D1 lynch.
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Clarity, do you have other scumreads than Oberyn by the way?
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On August 09 2013 21:04 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 20:54 Xatalos wrote: Clarity, do you have other scumreads than Oberyn by the way? I think solstice is a good lynch today unless something strange happens. His scumread on johnny makes no sense to me and his lord vote is obviously silly. Not voting DL despite having a townread on him because if he's scum he'll betray himself anyway...? Onegu feels scummy, the way he rapidly comes to people's defense, other than that he hasn't done much. Other than that, no not really. Risen is weird but scum doesn't just post 6 terrible scumreads in the span of an hour and then goes "BYE GUYS, DA BEECH" I liked him pointing out FT's opening post being scummy as hell.
I actually pretty much agree with FT's point on Acro.
"He’s holding back, not caring, not pressing as hard as he should be. Can you feeeeeel the apathy? Does he really care about the town’s best interests?"
That describes Acro's first post perfectly and his later posts as well, although not as obviously. Acro just seems too apathetic in my opinion.
FT's choice to save his argument until after hearing others' opinions first is weird, but how is it "scummy as hell"? He did present it even after receiving negative feedback, after all. Backing out would have been truly suspicious.
I agree that Risen is quite likely town (unfortunately, one might also say).
I don't agree about Onegu. He was mostly useless in Nuclear Winter Mafia, but his posts felt genuine (he was town). I also think his "scapegoat" theory, "befriending" theory and such in this game felt genuine. I wouldn't put him up in the lynch/KP candidates based on his doings so far.
Obviously I agree about s0Lstice.
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On August 09 2013 21:14 Clarity_nl wrote: I am also underwhelmed by iamp. He got voted lord but he doesn't seem to be doing much in thread. Maybe he's more active in pms?
That said, I've played with iamp before (2012 though) and this seems to be his style. I don't disagree that lurkers need to be pressured, although as has been pointed out we have house KP for that, and hopefully iamp will agree with this.
All the lords definitely need to have some form of conclusion about what abilities are used, on who and what time. Whether they share their conclusion in thread or not is up to them, but there should be an explanation of what was done the following day for sure (unless I'm not foreseeing some sort of plan that needs to keep most people in the dark)
Unfortunately, I'm also a bit underwhelmed by iamperfection. His biggest contribution so far is proposing a lurker lynch... Underwhelming is a pretty fitting word for that :/ He promised to form a town PM circle and use it to find scum, and it's hard to say what he has achieved in the PM land, so he might have achieved something good there.
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On August 09 2013 21:27 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah FT has decent points about Acro. That said his first post WAS scummy as hell. It became less scummy when he explained what he meant. I don't think FT is scum at the moment, but Risen was correct to call him out on it.
Did Onegu soft defend people in NWM the way he's done at least twice this game?
Well, not really. Maybe this counts:
On July 08 2013 13:42 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 11:41 Chezinu wrote:On July 08 2013 11:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On July 08 2013 11:34 Chezinu wrote:On July 08 2013 11:32 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On July 08 2013 11:16 Oatsmaster wrote: johnnywup NG caucasianasian horrible try again also Chez a little more explanation plz. Have you ever felt compelled to do someone? That's a personal questions chez... Let's say you had a nuke coming at you. What would you do in order to survive? This is his reason for launching at xata I think, I think he means xata launched at him so he launched back. And here is the reason he launched.
Although it's more of an explanation than a defense.
Onegu's activity level seems to be on par with how he played in NWM, and I don't see any real differences in his play yet. Maybe slightly less aggressive, hard to say. Whatever, I don't think his scum atm.
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Dandel Ion, I think it's a reasonable question though. We obviously can't KP every lurker. Which ones would you prefer?
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On August 09 2013 21:55 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 14:27 FirmTofu wrote:You people are useless. Alright, I do it myself. Here is the post for reference. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423047¤tpage=28#551Here is Yamato's opening scum post in Sicilian Mafia Style game. Yes, I know these are two different people, but this is still relevant. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=11#215Here are Ver's thoughts on Yamato's first post: Yamato77 is almost certainly mafia based off of his first post here. I’d vote him in heartbeat. This is the quintessential mafia post. Definitely my #1 find. I didn’t even have to read any other posts by him. Remember point 1 about mafia having a hard time entering the thread? I’ve snagged many many people from intuition judging from only their first post of the game. This is confirmed from a brief glance at his posts in Personality Mafia 2 where he was an unabashed townie making strong posts and not holding back. This post here is completely the opposite. He’s holding back, not caring, not pressing as hard as he should be. Can you feeeeeel the apathy? Does he really care about the town’s best interests? Do you see the similarity? Afrocales' post looks very constructed and deliberate. He holds back by soft-accuses Oats instead of pushing him like he should be. The apathy is in plain sight for everyone to see. He is just trying to establish thread presence and likability(w/ his RP) without actually scumhunting in the slightest. We have scum in our sights, people. My speech is simply the way learned nobles of the Reach speak. I know this sometimes confuses the common peasants, but why did you feel the need to upstage the ongoing conversations with such trifling evidence? What was your intention with your "grand reveal", which seemed to indicate a monumentous discovery of epic proportions. With your dramatic presentation, I was expecting you had discovered that Aegon the Conqueror had returned to slay us all.
Seriously -.- This post is 4 lines long and yet says nothing. Try to make some sense.
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On August 09 2013 22:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 22:05 Xatalos wrote:On August 09 2013 21:55 Acrofales wrote:On August 09 2013 14:27 FirmTofu wrote:You people are useless. Alright, I do it myself. Here is the post for reference. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423047¤tpage=28#551Here is Yamato's opening scum post in Sicilian Mafia Style game. Yes, I know these are two different people, but this is still relevant. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=11#215Here are Ver's thoughts on Yamato's first post: Yamato77 is almost certainly mafia based off of his first post here. I’d vote him in heartbeat. This is the quintessential mafia post. Definitely my #1 find. I didn’t even have to read any other posts by him. Remember point 1 about mafia having a hard time entering the thread? I’ve snagged many many people from intuition judging from only their first post of the game. This is confirmed from a brief glance at his posts in Personality Mafia 2 where he was an unabashed townie making strong posts and not holding back. This post here is completely the opposite. He’s holding back, not caring, not pressing as hard as he should be. Can you feeeeeel the apathy? Does he really care about the town’s best interests? Do you see the similarity? Afrocales' post looks very constructed and deliberate. He holds back by soft-accuses Oats instead of pushing him like he should be. The apathy is in plain sight for everyone to see. He is just trying to establish thread presence and likability(w/ his RP) without actually scumhunting in the slightest. We have scum in our sights, people. My speech is simply the way learned nobles of the Reach speak. I know this sometimes confuses the common peasants, but why did you feel the need to upstage the ongoing conversations with such trifling evidence? What was your intention with your "grand reveal", which seemed to indicate a monumentous discovery of epic proportions. With your dramatic presentation, I was expecting you had discovered that Aegon the Conqueror had returned to slay us all. Seriously -.- This post is 4 lines long and yet says nothing. Try to make some sense. Now you know how I feel whenever I hear you talk!
Right...
Who are you planning to vote for? How are you going to use your KP?
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On August 09 2013 22:07 Acrofales wrote: I am not convinced by those calling the Red Viper a Blackfyre because his case against me was incremental. While his case against me is nonsense, and any trust I had placed in him is gone, I don't believe the fact that he presented his evidence incrementally is indicative of his true intentions at all.
I wouldn't have even understood this post unless I read it 3 times over. Please stop.
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