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GoT Mafia: Lords and Liars - Page 52

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johnnywup
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3858 Posts
August 09 2013 05:58 GMT
#1021
he said it was scummy that I had that thought and I said that others saw it and some thought the exact opposite. Maybe that doesn't even really matter but I thought it was worth pointing out.
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
August 09 2013 06:15 GMT
#1022
On August 09 2013 14:58 johnnywup wrote:
he said it was scummy that I had that thought and I said that others saw it and some thought the exact opposite. Maybe that doesn't even really matter but I thought it was worth pointing out.

Why is it worth pointing out?

Why didnt you explain why its not scummy to think that there is a 3p
No gg, No skill.
johnnywup
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3858 Posts
August 09 2013 06:19 GMT
#1023
I dunno, I just thought it was. Does that bother you?

It's scummy to think there's a 3p?
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
August 09 2013 06:40 GMT
#1024
On August 09 2013 15:19 johnnywup wrote:
I dunno, I just thought it was. Does that bother you?

It's scummy to think there's a 3p?

It bothers me that your defence is 'these guys think its not scummy'
No gg, No skill.
johnnywup
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3858 Posts
August 09 2013 06:44 GMT
#1025
it's hardly a defense i'm sure you'll agree. i didn't really intend for it to be a defense. I was just pointing out a contrast. Do you think I'm scum?
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
August 09 2013 06:47 GMT
#1026
On August 09 2013 15:44 johnnywup wrote:
it's hardly a defense i'm sure you'll agree. i didn't really intend for it to be a defense. I was just pointing out a contrast. Do you think I'm scum?

yes
No gg, No skill.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 06:55 GMT
#1027
iamperfection, I don't think we should policy lynch a lurker. That's why we have 6 KPs around, remember? Some players might have 2 or even more HP, but that should still be enough to get rid of at least 1-2 of the most useless + hard to read players. On the other hand, I kind of agree that it's stupid to lynch the most active players at D1. Someone like Acro will definitely continue posting and out himself at some point if he's scum. I disliked his entrance to the thread as well, and his weak case on rayn, among other things, but it's not enough to lynch him considering his activity. The optimal lynch target would be a semi-active, yet scummy poster. s0Lstice, Koshi... Grackaroni might also suffice.

Grackaroni had the same thought as I did regarding your policy post, but it's true that he just threw some weak suspicion at you without doing anything with it. He hasn't actually pushed a single thing yet, only suggesting things without committing to them at all himself. I'm not buying s0Lstice's explanation for denying DI the Lord position. It's just very weak from a town perspective, but makes sense from a scum perspective (having a null and new player as Lord instead of a townish and experienced player). Koshi has been somewhat active earlier, but he was also a part of the Baratheon fiasco and had weird reasons for going to Chrom (didn't trust DI, yet trusted his one-liner about s0Lstice.....?). s0Lstice feels like the safest bet at the moment. Lurkers should be terminated with KP, not with the lynch.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 07:18 GMT
#1028
I think KPs should start to be used like 5-10 hours before the deadline. Like this:

1) Shoot a lurker
2) Still alive? Repeat
3) Dead? Choose next

By leaving some time between the KP and the lynch, the KP flip can help in deciding the lynch as well.

But we should wait some more to give the most useless lurkers a final chance. GET POSTING OR PREPARE TO DIE, USELESS TRASH!
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
August 09 2013 07:19 GMT
#1029
So which lurker do you want to die Xata?
No gg, No skill.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 07:29 GMT
#1030
On August 09 2013 16:19 Oatsmaster wrote:
So which lurker do you want to die Xata?


Not gumshoe for now. He was pretty townish and active during N0. Dunno why he started an AFK streak again. Get back here, please.

Kush would be good. He has posted nothing useful so far even though he has followed the game.

Sharrant etc. hardcore lurkers would be good.

I'm on my phone right now so this is from the top of my head. If someone has their N0 behaviours or such to share, please do.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
August 09 2013 07:38 GMT
#1031
I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.

So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right?
Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree.
No gg, No skill.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 07:55 GMT
#1032
On August 09 2013 16:38 Oatsmaster wrote:
I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.

So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right?
Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree.


Maybe FT would be better over total non-posters like Nacho. The point is, I agree with iamperfection that lurkers and other anti-town players should be punished to make it harder for scum to hide among them or with their help. But KP is much better suited for that than the lynch. It's also easier to coordinate the KPs to take down lurkers instead of random players. It's a HP game after all. The lynch should be on the most scummy player, but the KP can be used for policy (partly - since lurkers have a higher chance of being scum than active players).
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
August 09 2013 07:55 GMT
#1033
On August 09 2013 11:15 s0Lstice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 06:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
Why is this conversation happening in the thread as opposed to pms?

#Trafficcop


Clarity my boy. I see no reason not to assume that you think your play so far has been pro-town. With that said, what are you doing here? If your thread directing is useful and pro-town, what is with the self-conscious acknowledgement of the behavior? If it's protown then you should just be carrying on. It seems like you have some inherent guilt here.


Merely poking fun at you for calling me a traffic cop. Ofcourse I become aware of it when you point it out.
I don't know how that's inherent guilt, or why, as any alignment, I would feel guilty for trying to avoid people shitting up the thread.

Are you calling me scum, or are you just pointing out something as "noteworthy"? If you're gonna push something, push it.

On August 09 2013 08:35 Chromatically wrote:
Why isn't everyone voting Sol already?


I agree with this.

The rayn/acro shitfest that happened was dumb. One side saying that the other is COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTING ME when they use a slightly different word or interpretation is useless.
I dunno why you guys are voting eachother, but please find out if your vote is to lynch or if your vote is OMGUS.

rayn saying "I'll reconsider my read if you tell me the plan" can easily come from town
Likewise, acro being protective of his plan seems more likely town than scum. Issues with oberyn not withstanding (he called it a joint effort so you think he's scum?)

In fact, oberyn..... please walk me through this
You vote him because he is buddying up to you.. fair enough I guess? Not sure how that makes him more likely scum that solstice but let's roll with it.
On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.

I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:

##Unvote
##Vote Acrofales

Then you emphasize the buddying up part:
On August 09 2013 08:50 Oberyn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 08:24 Acrofales wrote:
On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.

I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:

##Unvote
##Vote Acrofales

What the hell are you smoking? Here is the first thing you sent to me about using magic:


Onegu told me that he wants to use the hp check on day one, which would give the mafia an idea of how many kp it takes to eliminate a player with their night hits. I've had a town read on him otherwise. Do you think there is any benefit to wanting to use it early as town?


Here is your second missive, after my reply:

You say that it is important for us to know to coordinate our shots, but then want to use it on your own hosue? Does that suggest that you want the Lords to fire in your house? Wouldn't it make more sense to use it on the house you want to fire into?


And MY REPLY to that is the plan.

After this we have not communicated about using the magic, and were discussing Yamato.


Exactly. Nothing there points to us working together on come to your plan. It gives me the creeps that you decide to bring up three different times that I helped formulate the idea as if we're working behind the scenes to come up with something incredibly pro-town. I feel like you're buddying up to me in that sense. Furthermore, the plan isn't so great that you have to keep it a secret from rayn. You're overstating your contribution right now.

Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote:
Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with a way of potentially foiling a Blackfyre plot by using our life check magic?


Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 08:11 Acrofales wrote:
I also made an allusion to the plan concocted by Sharrant, the Red Viper and myself


Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote:
Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with.



All is cool up until this point. He's buddying up to you, he's overstating his contributions. These are decent points.
Here comes the thing I have an issue with though:
On August 09 2013 09:02 Oberyn wrote:
More on Acrofales:

I first contact him via pm's because I found his conclusion that DI and koshi are both town quite puzzling. When I asked about it futher, he explained that he doesn't think DI truly thinks that sol and koshi are scum, he is simply pressuring them. Based on DI's emotional tunnel, I certainly do not draw the same conclusion. He also inadequately explains why koshi is town. He states that DI is overreacting on his views about koshi., but how is this indicative of koshi's alignment? He states that he isn't interested in considering a koshi lynch, but doesn't provide a solid reason. Furthermore, if you earlier thought that DI was faking his read on koshi to pressure him, how is he suddenly overreacting on his read? That's a contradiction.

Initially, he thought that it was a good idea to use the health check simply to figure out the hp system. This is incredibly anti-town. When I attack him for his plan, he quickly drops it.

Acro's house is a slew of inactives, but he has shown little interest in dealing with them.

In the thread, Acro has said a lot of nothing. He is using the role playing nonsense to cover up the fact that he isn't sharing many strong reads. I see little reason why he shouldn't be considered for a lynch today.

Suddenly every interaction you've ever had with acro points to him being scum? Why didn't we hear from this earlier?
You had not mentioned any of these points until now. Could anyone from Oberyn's house say if he ever mentioned these things before, and whether or not he talked about acro possibly being scum?

You had a vote on him for one concise reason, implying you could lynch him for just that reason, and then you felt the need to suddenly attach 5 more reasons.
Why is that, Oberyn?
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 08:46 GMT
#1034
On August 09 2013 16:55 Clarity_nl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 11:15 s0Lstice wrote:
On August 09 2013 06:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
Why is this conversation happening in the thread as opposed to pms?

#Trafficcop


Clarity my boy. I see no reason not to assume that you think your play so far has been pro-town. With that said, what are you doing here? If your thread directing is useful and pro-town, what is with the self-conscious acknowledgement of the behavior? If it's protown then you should just be carrying on. It seems like you have some inherent guilt here.


Merely poking fun at you for calling me a traffic cop. Ofcourse I become aware of it when you point it out.
I don't know how that's inherent guilt, or why, as any alignment, I would feel guilty for trying to avoid people shitting up the thread.

Are you calling me scum, or are you just pointing out something as "noteworthy"? If you're gonna push something, push it.

Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 08:35 Chromatically wrote:
Why isn't everyone voting Sol already?


I agree with this.

The rayn/acro shitfest that happened was dumb. One side saying that the other is COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTING ME when they use a slightly different word or interpretation is useless.
I dunno why you guys are voting eachother, but please find out if your vote is to lynch or if your vote is OMGUS.

rayn saying "I'll reconsider my read if you tell me the plan" can easily come from town
Likewise, acro being protective of his plan seems more likely town than scum. Issues with oberyn not withstanding (he called it a joint effort so you think he's scum?)

In fact, oberyn..... please walk me through this
You vote him because he is buddying up to you.. fair enough I guess? Not sure how that makes him more likely scum that solstice but let's roll with it.
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.

I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:

##Unvote
##Vote Acrofales

Then you emphasize the buddying up part:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 08:50 Oberyn wrote:
On August 09 2013 08:24 Acrofales wrote:
On August 09 2013 08:20 Oberyn wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're rambling about Acro. You essentially took my plan from my first post, decided that you and me worked on it together (I have no idea where that comes from) and now won't share it for whatever reason.

I'm still suspicious of sol, but for now I'm going to:

##Unvote
##Vote Acrofales

What the hell are you smoking? Here is the first thing you sent to me about using magic:


Onegu told me that he wants to use the hp check on day one, which would give the mafia an idea of how many kp it takes to eliminate a player with their night hits. I've had a town read on him otherwise. Do you think there is any benefit to wanting to use it early as town?


Here is your second missive, after my reply:

You say that it is important for us to know to coordinate our shots, but then want to use it on your own hosue? Does that suggest that you want the Lords to fire in your house? Wouldn't it make more sense to use it on the house you want to fire into?


And MY REPLY to that is the plan.

After this we have not communicated about using the magic, and were discussing Yamato.


Exactly. Nothing there points to us working together on come to your plan. It gives me the creeps that you decide to bring up three different times that I helped formulate the idea as if we're working behind the scenes to come up with something incredibly pro-town. I feel like you're buddying up to me in that sense. Furthermore, the plan isn't so great that you have to keep it a secret from rayn. You're overstating your contribution right now.

On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote:
Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with a way of potentially foiling a Blackfyre plot by using our life check magic?


On August 09 2013 08:11 Acrofales wrote:
I also made an allusion to the plan concocted by Sharrant, the Red Viper and myself


On August 09 2013 06:44 Acrofales wrote:
Are you upset because I am unwilling to disclose with you the way the Red Viper, Sharrant and myself came up with.



All is cool up until this point. He's buddying up to you, he's overstating his contributions. These are decent points.
Here comes the thing I have an issue with though:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 09:02 Oberyn wrote:
More on Acrofales:

I first contact him via pm's because I found his conclusion that DI and koshi are both town quite puzzling. When I asked about it futher, he explained that he doesn't think DI truly thinks that sol and koshi are scum, he is simply pressuring them. Based on DI's emotional tunnel, I certainly do not draw the same conclusion. He also inadequately explains why koshi is town. He states that DI is overreacting on his views about koshi., but how is this indicative of koshi's alignment? He states that he isn't interested in considering a koshi lynch, but doesn't provide a solid reason. Furthermore, if you earlier thought that DI was faking his read on koshi to pressure him, how is he suddenly overreacting on his read? That's a contradiction.

Initially, he thought that it was a good idea to use the health check simply to figure out the hp system. This is incredibly anti-town. When I attack him for his plan, he quickly drops it.

Acro's house is a slew of inactives, but he has shown little interest in dealing with them.

In the thread, Acro has said a lot of nothing. He is using the role playing nonsense to cover up the fact that he isn't sharing many strong reads. I see little reason why he shouldn't be considered for a lynch today.

Suddenly every interaction you've ever had with acro points to him being scum? Why didn't we hear from this earlier?
You had not mentioned any of these points until now. Could anyone from Oberyn's house say if he ever mentioned these things before, and whether or not he talked about acro possibly being scum?

You had a vote on him for one concise reason, implying you could lynch him for just that reason, and then you felt the need to suddenly attach 5 more reasons.
Why is that, Oberyn?


Are you implying that Oberyn is scum because he's adding more points to his own case later on?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
August 09 2013 08:47 GMT
#1035
Yes.

If he believed him to be scum enough to vote him over solstice (while stating he's still suspicious of solstice) why does he feel the need to add more reasons to his vote?
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
August 09 2013 08:56 GMT
#1036
Let me put it this way.

In chronological order:

1. He takes advantage of the mess rayn and acro have created by voting for acro
2. He then goes back and explains why his reasoning in his votepost makes sense (this is fine)
3. He now shows that he went back and looked at his interactions with acro

Why did he not look back at the interactions before voting him? Surely you look back at it BEFORE you vote someone?
I believe he is scum who tried to take advantage of the situation, and acted too quickly, started doubting that the reasons he posted in thread looked genuine, so he went back and slapped on everything that he could twist to look scummy.
He had not mentioned acro at all before this point.

If anyone has received pms from oberyn in which he expresses concern of acro being scum prior to the rayn/acro outburst then I might be willing to change my mind on this.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
August 09 2013 08:59 GMT
#1037
On August 09 2013 16:38 Oatsmaster wrote:
I feel that kush will show his alignment either way.

So you are basically suggesting a policy nk on lurkers right?
Cause you dont have specific targets. I dont know if I agree.

Really? What indicates to you that he will?


btw, I'm fully in favor of policy nk'ing lurkers.
imo we should agree on 3 of them and have 2 houses shoot them respectively. Or maybe 2 with 3 shooting each? Hard to tell how much you need to kill them, 2 targets seems "safer" to result in something. Just try one out and see what happens. The specific distribution can be made in secret, dunno if that'd have an impact but i dont think it really matters to the thread who shoots who until after it's done (so we can see who didn't kill who), which might as well be claimed after.

There's literally no downside to this.
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Grackaroni
Profile Joined July 2011
United States9857 Posts
August 09 2013 09:00 GMT
#1038
Finally read the thread, I am most suspicious of Jrkirby. First off Nobody in House Martell has gotten a good read off of him because nobody in House Martell really talked to each. The best contribution in thread he made was calling out S0lstice for not electing his town read and naming 2 people town who the majority of town has already agreed were town.

After that he started making posts such

On August 09 2013 06:35 jrkirby wrote:
Finally, why have all the houses not posted a list of their members yet?

I think that it's actually beneficial to town to post these lists, and here's why:

1) Once scum have a list of 5 of the houses, they have a list of every house.

2) in a 24 player game, scum almost guaranteed have 4-6 members. Scum are spread out (I think it's random or something, right?) so they already know probably 3-4 houses at the start.

3) 2 (or is it 3?) houses have already posted their list. There's a good chance this fills in the missing info for scum.

4) All the house lists will probably be posted by day 2 anyway. Scum will only be missing this info for a short time.

5) Scum know all the lords already. This further helps them fill in the gaps.

6) Knowing the houses is not too beneficial to scum. Scum are more likely to want to eliminate every non-scum player in a house than an entire house (based off my possibly flawed logic - they can use this to WIFOM, be careful).

7) Knowing the houses is beneficial to town. We can help predict who will be lord in later days, we can help predict who is likely to be shot. We know who can PM a certain player, so it's easier to find people with reads on them. We don't think two people are on a scumteam together when they're just house buddies. Things are simpler, we don't get confused when REDACTED is posted. The list goes on.

8) Displaying all houses gives more info to town than it gives to scum.

9) Transparency is beneficial to town, and giving out house lists helps with transparency.

I can think of one good reason why we might not want to give out house lists:

1) There might be 3P that wants to eliminate a house, or secondary objectives for scum to eliminate a house. This is entirely speculation though, so I don't put too much weight into it.

This is a post that I would be ok with if it was in the start of the game, but he chose to talk about this during a time when scumhunting was actually taking place and he could actually participate in conversation.
On August 09 2013 06:41 jrkirby wrote:
One question I would like to ask the thread: Does anyone KNOW how much HP they have? I do not know how much HP I have. If you know, obviously I'm not asking you to announce how much HP you have to the thread. Actually, don't even say that you know how much HP you have. I just want to announce that I do not know how much HP I have.

This could be beneficial to town because then they can do better speculation on what people's roles are like.

Choosing to talk about setup rather than scumhunting and he has already disappeared without really pressuring or conversing with anybody

Everyone else has seemed engaged in the current conversations and actively scumhunting and these posts just didn't fit in with what I think a townie would be posting about during the time of the thread. He seems like he is more interested in blending into town than scumhunting.

There was an exchange between Oats and Yamato at the start of the game that rubbed me the wrong way. It was so disruptive and anti-town, that I have trouble believing that it came from 2 town players. It didn't seem normal to me and I even got a little bit of a staged feeling (as in they could be both scum randomly attacking each other at the start of the game). I think remember someone claiming they were probably town for being aggressive but some scum are more comfortable getting in arguments with people to help buff up their post count and mask their lack of contributions.

@Xata/Clarity/anyone awake. Is there anybody you would like me to comment on before i go to bed?
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
August 09 2013 09:00 GMT
#1039
I understand being suspicious of acro, but I ain't seen nothing that suggests him being a better lynch than sol. Or Koshi, for that matter.
A backwards poet writes inverse.
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
August 09 2013 09:02 GMT
#1040
On August 09 2013 17:47 Clarity_nl wrote:
Yes.

If he believed him to be scum enough to vote him over solstice (while stating he's still suspicious of solstice) why does he feel the need to add more reasons to his vote?


Hmmm. I don't really see that as a scum-only motivation. Scum would certainly have reason to pile more suspicion on their target after selecting him, but similarly town can be consumed by confirmation bias and focus on convincing others of their read. Look at Dandel Ion's tunnel on Koshi, for example.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
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