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On July 29 2013 19:47 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 19:46 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 19:42 Koshi wrote:On July 29 2013 19:41 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 11:49 Koshi wrote:On July 29 2013 08:33 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 08:29 Koshi wrote:
Why do I really want to lynch paper now? And why do I have a feeling we are heading towards a no lynch? On second thought you have a really good reason for voting for Paper. Your plan is still to lynch me as soon as you can. You think that Paper is town so that will help your case against me.
Also, a no lynch will not happen. Only a fool would cause that. Here is the small mistake hzflank made. Here in this comment hz somewhat admits that he knows that paper is town, and he is being scared that when this flip happens, Koshi will use it to prove he is scum. This comment is full off scared scum. No fucking townie would be on the paper wagon so long and make this comment. Why would a townie suddenly doubt himself? Or suddenly be so scared to be lynched for being wrong? hzflank was also lurking during the heat of the lynch. That's another scumtell. Because nothing feels so good as scum to see the bickering of town when they are about to lynch another townie. I know the feeling from nuclear. It's 5 am and I got to go to work in 2.5 hours. Been a while since I woke up i nthe middle of the night and solved a problem. 'Somewhat admits'? You are not this bad Koshi, and therefore you are scum. That was my impression upon joining the game this morning and the only reason why I am hesitant to go deep into it is that I worry I am being OMGUS. I will go properly into it though as at this point you are really likely to be scum. Let me ask you this, assuming that I am scum and that you are town, what was my motivation for making the above post? Can you read? Me being scared is not in the slightest bit consistent with your scum read on me. Your read on me is based on the fact that you think that I am good at playing scum. In addition, If I were scum and I did not actually want Paper to flip, why did I not just switch my vote onto you? You tried my good friend. Already forgot that?
When did I try? When Rayn was asking people to vote for you I could of done so. If I were scum I am sure it would not of been hard for me to come up with a reason.
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On July 29 2013 19:48 Koshi wrote:
You must think VA is really scummy. oh wait.
How do you know whether or not I think that VA is scummy? You gave not asked me. IIRC I have not talked much about Vayne in this game but when I did I thought that he was scummy. I do not see why you would think that I do not think Vaybe to be scummy.
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On July 29 2013 19:50 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 06:33 hzflank wrote:
Why is Koshi not a lynch candidate?
As far as I can tell, the only good town reason for Koshi's play this game is because he is convinced that I am scum. If he is not genuinely convinced that I am scum then he is likely scum. It's going to be hard for me to be objective, but I think he should at least post a case so that others can read it.
And then you posted a case and I said that I could genuinely believe it. If I wanted to lynch you instead of Paper I could of just tore into you over that case and started to push you hard.
Koshi, every thing that you are posting is false. You have been completely full of shit throughout this entire exchange. You are not trying to discover whether or not I am scum and you admit it. You are trying to make posts that reduce the chance of you being lynched and you are failing miserably.
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On July 29 2013 19:52 Koshi wrote:
Did you forget yesterday? Or is it today contradiction day?
That is not me saying that Vayne is not scummy. That is me saying that it would be bad play by me to push for a lynch on Vayne at that point. And I gave a reason as to why.
You are not this bad, Koshi. You cannot suddenly be this bad.
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On July 29 2013 19:58 Vivax wrote:
Hey flank, where did your fancy JAT scumread go.
Off the top of my head, I thought someone should day Vig him to make the day 1 lynch easier. As we approached the vote I thought that Paper and Koshi were both more likely to flip scum than JAT, so it would of been stupid for me to push for his lynch. I was already pushing hard enough for Paper's lynch..
At this point I think that Koshi is much more likely to be scum than JAT. There are also other people that I want to look into.
In fact calling JAT scum during this night phase would be too easy for me. JAT looks scummy due to sheeping the lynch early and generally being inactive, but I cannot actually read more into that until I or someone else questions him more.
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On July 29 2013 19:52 Vivax wrote:
What I also noticed is that Flank agreed with me on JAT being scummy early in the game, but doesn't give a fuck about him for the rest of the game. He also said he was reluctant to pursue him cause he didn't trust Oats, which is kinda bullshit, I've almost never seen a townier Oats than in this game.
Your day 1 supposed town read on me was based on the fact that I thought Oats was scum but then changed my mind, right? Why do you now say that it is bullshit that I would have a scum read on Oats?
I did not trust Oats and I do not fully trust anyone. It should be obvious as to why that is.
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On July 29 2013 20:10 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 20:09 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 19:58 Vivax wrote:
Hey flank, where did your fancy JAT scumread go. Off the top of my head, I thought someone should day Vig him to make the day 1 lynch easier. As we approached the vote I thought that Paper and Koshi were both more likely to flip scum than JAT, so it would of been stupid for me to push for his lynch. I was already pushing hard enough for Paper's lynch.. At this point I think that Koshi is much more likely to be scum than JAT. There are also other people that I want to look into. In fact calling JAT scum during this night phase would be too easy for me. JAT looks scummy due to sheeping the lynch early and generally being inactive, but I cannot actually read more into that until I or someone else questions him more. So you thought me and paper were scum but you made a comment about me going to use paper his green flip to pressure you. lololol.
There is a very big difference between thinking that someone is scum and knowing that someone is scum. Especially on day 1.
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On July 29 2013 20:18 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 20:15 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 20:10 Koshi wrote:On July 29 2013 20:09 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 19:58 Vivax wrote:
Hey flank, where did your fancy JAT scumread go. Off the top of my head, I thought someone should day Vig him to make the day 1 lynch easier. As we approached the vote I thought that Paper and Koshi were both more likely to flip scum than JAT, so it would of been stupid for me to push for his lynch. I was already pushing hard enough for Paper's lynch.. At this point I think that Koshi is much more likely to be scum than JAT. There are also other people that I want to look into. In fact calling JAT scum during this night phase would be too easy for me. JAT looks scummy due to sheeping the lynch early and generally being inactive, but I cannot actually read more into that until I or someone else questions him more. So you thought me and paper were scum but you made a comment about me going to use paper his green flip to pressure you. lololol. There is a very big difference between thinking that someone is scum and knowing that someone is scum. Especially on day 1. You said he was voting PS so he could push you in case he turned up town, which is nonsensical for someone who thought PS was scum. You know my half-a-dozen scumreads, if you want to help me get a better read of you, could you give me your opinion on them?If they aren't your scumbuddies it should end up being unbiased and you have nothing to fear.
I thought that Paper was the most likely to flip scum on day 1. I think that it is rare to actually lynch scum on day 1, so that means that I thought there was a 50% or so chance of Paper being scum. I thought that there was less chance of each other person being scum.
Clarity is probably my strongest town read. He seemed to play a solid day 1. We got off to a bad start but he gradually became more town to me throughout the day. He seemed to be posting sensibly around the time of the lynch and I think I agreed with his entire attitude towards the lynch.
I am not particularly comfortable in giving a read on Exar as I was not diligent enough in reading him around lynch time and I need to go back and do that at some point today. I was town on Exar after his day 1 exchange with Tofu. I disagree with some of his game theory regarding a single person trying to push more than 1 person at a lynch, but that alone is not enough to make me think that he Is scum. I do need to fully read him though, as I get the feeling that I am missing something or that there is something there that should make my read better, one way or the other.
I am also thinking that Rayn is town. As scum he would not of needed to be so active around the lynch. I liked that he finally switched his vote to Paper to avoid the no lynch. To completely agree with his points on you (Vivax) regarding a no lynch, as there is no good town motivation to attempt to cause a no lynch. This is game theory again though, and not enough to make me lean heavily scum on someone.
If we had unlimited Vig shots I would say just shoot JAT now (I am not sure if he is currently the best Vig target, but I would not complain). I do not think he has town a single thing that is obviously town. At this early stage of the lynch cycle he already seems like he might fly under the lynch radar though, hence him being a good Vig target. I do not like to sheep, but considering what happened on day 1 I need to be a bit careful (for the town's sake, not mine) so I will be willing to consolidate my vote onto JAT if the time comes and without question. I doubt that JAT will be able to make me change my mind regarding that.
I am a bit annoyed by Vayne's day 1 play. Even if he refuses to actually scum hunt he should have a duty to at least let other townies get a read on him. I expect a lot more from Vayne on day 2 and hopefully I will be able to get a better read. I absolutely would not push for a Vayne lynch, but I would not fight against it either.
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On July 29 2013 20:28 Koshi wrote:
So hz believes 2 complete different things at the same time.
1) Koshi and Paper are scum
2) Koshi is pushing paper lynch because Koshi thinks paper is town
Which is impossible. And pretty close to impossible to think as a town player.
I believed that Koshi and/or Paper might be scum. Obviously I did not have a 100% read on either of you.
I was trying to work out why town-Koshi would switch his vote to Paper so easily. My conclusion was that it was because you thought that Paper was town and that it would help your case against me. I was wrong though and unfortunately I was not thinking clearly enough. That is actually a better reason for scum-Koshi to vote for Paper than for town-Koshi to. It is easier to say that in hindsight though, now that I know that Paper was town.
On July 29 2013 20:30 Koshi wrote:
A scum player on the other hand
1) knows that both are town but pretend otherwise
2) can assume koshi is pushing paper because koshi thinks paper is town
A scum player would not even need to try to work out why Koshi was voting for Paper. A scum player would just go with it and settle for lynching a townie.
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Vivax, all of your points are wrong. If you are such a great day 1 player that you think your day 1 reads have a much greater than 50% chance of being correct then you should of pushed your day 1 read a lot harder than you did.
I said many times during day 1 that I was not tunnelling Paper and I did try to give him a chance to make me move my vote off of him. At the end of the day, it came down to voting for who I thought was the most likely to be scum. I also pushed my read hard, and those two things are all that any town player can do on day 1.
The points that Koshi just made make him look worse than me. I was very obviously trying to decide whether to move my vote onto Koshi or not (at the time Rayn was asking people to do it), and one of the first things that anyone should do in that situation is to try to work out whether Koshi's vote on Paper was well justified from a town perspective. All those posts by Koshi really do is make his own vote look less justified, where as I think I played as town should.
Throughout this entire game some people have accused me for one thing while another group of people accuse me for the opposite thing. And ofcourse if I do not take a strong stance then both groups would accuse me of sitting on fences. At this point the obvious thing that I am doing is trying to work out which accusations I agree with and which I do not, as the ones that I do not agree with are more likely to come from scum.
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On July 29 2013 22:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 22:39 Vivax wrote:
Need a closer look at Rayn before deciding definitely though.
Am I not scum any more rayn? I don't know. You new look to the game on N1 is interesting and i agree on it to some extent. I still think FT is scum though. I would lynch hz instantly if there was that "Oats case" comment.
I am sick of this now. You do not think that one paragraph makes a person town if everything else about them makes them scum. I did not like it when Vivax had a town on me for that reason and I did not like it when you repeated it.
I will let you in on a little secret: that paragraph was constructed. It was true, but it was also completely re-written because I did not like the first version. I would of posted that paragraph as either town or scum.
People need to base their read on me on more than that single paragraph, because even if you are correct about my alignment for now you are reading me badly and that single paragraph will not make me look town forever.
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On July 29 2013 23:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 23:01 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 22:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On July 29 2013 22:39 Vivax wrote:
Need a closer look at Rayn before deciding definitely though.
Am I not scum any more rayn? I don't know. You new look to the game on N1 is interesting and i agree on it to some extent. I still think FT is scum though. I would lynch hz instantly if there was that "Oats case" comment. I am sick of this now. You do not think that one paragraph makes a person town if everything else about them makes them scum. I did not like it when Vivax had a town on me for that reason and I did not like it when you repeated it. I will let you in on a little secret: that paragraph was constructed. It was true, but it was also completely re-written because I did not like the first version. I would of posted that paragraph as either town or scum. People need to base their read on me on more than that single paragraph, because even if you are correct about my alignment for now you are reading me badly and that single paragraph will not make me look town forever. Why would you want me to take a relook of you if you are town? You are making me waste my time looking into someone who is town -> not helping finding mafia. Are you trying to buy town credit with reverse psychology?
No, I am saying two things. Firstly your reason for having me as a town read makes you look like scum. This is because you just said that everything about me looks like scum but one paragraph made you completely change your mind. That paragraph was not good enough to give someone a town read on me if everything else I have done makes me look like scum.
Secondly, I intend to continue playing in a similar fashion to what I have been doing so far. If everything (other than that paragraph) makes me look like scum to you then I will soon look extremely scummy to you and I may now have a new magic paragraph to change your mind. Therefore, if you are town and want to maintain a correct read on me then you need to look at the other parts of my play.
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On July 29 2013 23:23 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 23:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I have already explained why it's easy to fake finding a scumslip, and why it might even be beneficial.
Do i really need to quote my own posts regarding that?
The scumslip thing is not alignment indicative. You could possibly fake a scumslip find. FT cant. ggnore
I do not agree with this. I know that this is going to make me look arrogant, but Oats you were obs in the first and only game that I played scum, and I faked a scum-slip find at the very start of day 2 in that game.
FT has a lot more experience than I do. It is not that hard to fake, in my opinion.
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On July 29 2013 23:36 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 23:35 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 23:23 Oatsmaster wrote:On July 29 2013 23:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I have already explained why it's easy to fake finding a scumslip, and why it might even be beneficial.
Do i really need to quote my own posts regarding that?
The scumslip thing is not alignment indicative. You could possibly fake a scumslip find. FT cant. ggnore I do not agree with this. I know that this is going to make me look arrogant, but Oats you were obs in the first and only game that I played scum, and I faked a scum-slip find at the very start of day 2 in that game. FT has a lot more experience than I do. It is not that hard to fake, in my opinion. link the scumslip find thing please?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420227¤tpage=68#1351
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On July 29 2013 23:40 Oatsmaster wrote:
Thats a way different kind of scumslip hzflank.
FT found something that wasnt actually near a scumslip but somehow misread it. Tell me, would scum misread shit like that? no.
FT's was better than mine, but I am still not willing to think that someone is solidly town due one single point or post. Basically, I do not believe in Town-slips.
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On July 29 2013 23:46 exarezee wrote:
And to address your main case against me Virax.
I lessened my scum read on papers when he posted that his entire day of posts was a joke. The higher the chance I think he was actually joking the whole time, then, the less scummy I deem his posts. However, the next time he comes to the thread, he goes back on the fact that his entire day was a joke. He said that he was trying to get a read from me. Is trying to get a read from someone a joke? The rest of his day's posts were poor too. That is what reinforced my read on him as a scum.
Just to be clear here, are you saying that this is what made Paper's look less scummy to you?
On July 27 2013 15:04 Paperscraps wrote:
TLDR; Besides the first question on my first post, I haven't been serious at all.
Personally I thought that was the scummiest thing that Paper had posted up until that point.
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On July 29 2013 23:09 Oatsmaster wrote:
So bad tunneling townie or scum Vivax? I dunno, Im willing to let him stay alive for a bit and lynch other dudes first.
Oats, when you get the chance I would like you to go back this and elaborate. Or even just tell me if this still holds true now (only an hour later, I know). Do you you think Exar is town or scum right now?
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On July 29 2013 19:34 justanothertownie wrote:
But to answer your question:
gut-wise and without thinking it through very well the 4 persons I would probably lynch are:
koshi, hzflank, maybe stutters/vayne and you
Take this with a grain of salt.
Wait a second...
You would lynch both Koshi and me? Why? What is it about the interactions between Koshi and I that look scum-scum to you?
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On July 30 2013 01:11 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 01:06 hzflank wrote:On July 29 2013 19:34 justanothertownie wrote:
But to answer your question:
gut-wise and without thinking it through very well the 4 persons I would probably lynch are:
koshi, hzflank, maybe stutters/vayne and you
Take this with a grain of salt. Wait a second... You would lynch both Koshi and me? Why? What is it about the interactions between Koshi and I that look scum-scum to you? He said to take this with a grain of salt. So he can tell you his fake reads and still justify it when people realize he's lying.
He also mentioned you as a scum read. (Vivax).
@JAT
In addition to my previous question: Do you possibly think that the conversation this morning between Vivax, Koshi and myself was between 3 scum? If so, how?
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On July 29 2013 20:45 justanothertownie wrote:
Ask me this or any other question again when I'm back at home, please. I will answer them.
All I can say at the moment is that hz and you could very well both be scum. I could imagine hz encouraging you to attack him in the thread because it's not very likely for him to get lynched. Besides I don't believe he has any reluctance to bus you hard.
I should read thoroughly before I post. Perhaps you have already answered my previous questions, but if you want to elaborate on them then please do so.
I have a new question for you. Before starting to play this game, did you read any other games on this forum? If so, would you please link the game.
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EPT
