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Sponge, could you also elaborate on you Umasi read?
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I find it mindblowing that no one else thinks Stim looks bad at all.
Where is the town motivation in lying about motivations and then ragequitting . Its not a surefire thing, but it's pretty strong.
I wrote that post to point out that Sponge isn't scumhunting so that people could comment or look further into him.
Ive been clearly the most active scumhunter this game, I don't know why anyone would have a scum read on me.
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People move their suspicion off of him because they think that he's being genuine.
That's what he gains.
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He needs to explain himself and his actions. There's absolutely no reason for him to afk all day if he's town, do you agree?
There's a difference between tunneling and pushing your read. I don't understand why people have town reads on Stim, so I'm asking them and trying to convince them.
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I'll drop the whole Stim thing for now because he's back. The whole situation feels really sketchy to me still,
but I'll lay off of it and see what Stim does (especially now that he's back). It's possible that I'm just not understanding what Stim is trying to explain.
On July 14 2013 00:25 Koshi wrote:
@Stim
I indeed agree with hzflank that you need to pick up your courage and start playing this game again. Take that martyr vote of yourself and put it on somebody that you believe is scummier than yourself.
Keeping that martyr vote on yourself is actually the worst thing that you have done in my eyes, because if you are town, you take a vote away and put it on a possible mafia scapegoat.
@Chromatically
That was my first impression of this thread. You did some good scumhunting before and you made a good read somewhere, I noted it down but forgot about what it was. I think I dislike the outcome of the Stimaddict pressure more than you actually pushing him.
Chroma, what do you feel about Umasi?
Umasi is town. He's actively scumhunting, explaining his reasoning, and posting way more than scum would need to.
On July 14 2013 03:21 Hurricane Sponge wrote:@Chrom: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 19:28 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 16:29 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 16:02 Umasi wrote:
Alright, here, hurricane. Who do you think is worth voting at this time?
From your post, I got the gist that it'd be Superfluous or me. Is that correct? I'm still a bit mad at StiM for his post implying that it was our job to keep him entertained. I'm going to give myself some time to cool off on that, because I don't appreciate people quitting on my team (if he is in fact town). This is a time investment for everybody, and it's damn selfish of him to pack up his ball and go home after really light pressure. Townville: Kirby pressured me appropriately after my opener. I like that. He also seems to have the same attitude as me regarding the quick StiMwagon: On July 13 2013 13:31 jrkirby wrote:
2 votes land on a guy is quick succession, I'd be stupid if I weren't at least a BIT suspicious. As far as I can tell, stim is just acting like a bit of an idiot, is flustered, and frustrated. Doesn't seem like scumtell to me. You're free to have your vote, and I don't have a solid scumread on either of you, but I will be looking a bit more closely at your filters. hz is aggressively posting reads and seems to emulate my thoughts on the early Superfluous post: On July 13 2013 09:42 hzflank wrote:I think Jrkirby's and Sponge's opening posts had the same motivation: to get discussion moving. Both have done this and we have multiple discussions taking place. Since then, Sponge did a little coaching. Sponge has come under pressure from multiple people (for his opening post), and has dealt with it while being reasonably open. The only time that he has not been open is by refusing to post the other version of his opening post. Sponge did a little coaching again as he tried to stop Umasi from defending him. So far my read on Sponge has moved very slightly towards town. Since his opening, Jrkirby has attacked Sponge for his opening post, and done nothing else. That's fine because it is early and Jrkirby is pushing to get a reaction from someone. This is not scummy to me, null read. Umasi has defended Hurricane, which cannot be viewed as scummy at this point. Umasi has attacked Superfluous. I would say that this attack could be scummy as it is based on nothing, but it could just be to get Super to post more (he only has one post). Umasi then repeats that he thinks Super's post is scummy and votes for him. The problem I have with this is that Umasi claims Super's only post was scummy, when I do not think that it was. On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote:
While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. If Umasi was looking for a reaction then I do not understand why he posted: On July 13 2013 08:59 Umasi wrote:
Where the hell are you. You popped in, gave a single post, that I think is scummy as crap, still haven't show back up. Pretty confusing, because the post you gave was irrelevant. How was Super's post scummy as crap? I do not think that Umasi is looking for scum, and if he is not just fishing for Super to respond then I think that Umasi is just looking for a neutral place to put his early vote. Unlike Jrkirby's, Umasi's vote is not a troll vote. I have a slight scum read on Umasi. Xzavier posted some decent thoughts (although he really didn't go out on any limbs): On July 13 2013 11:19 Xzavier wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote:
While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. i know usami has touched on this, but i see voting for No-lynch is like sacrificing a townie or playing russian roullet for zero prize money. its just basically saying "i want to start this game a townie down" it seems silly to me, if somebody comes and gives me an ungodly reason for no-lynching ill hear it. but i see it as silly. Also from playing with usami before, hes a super fucking hyper aggressive person who needs like a single post to tunnel somebody for a full day, that can be bad. we need to keep our eyes open and looking at multiple people. As i learned my first game, a tunnel vision day1 can lead to a mislynch, or in this gametype, a no-lynch. Its far better to lynch scum, and thats what we should try to do. Even day1 we lynch either a lurker or our top scumread, if nobody has any strong scumreads, lynching the scummiest lurker is the best townplay day1. (it yields the highest chance of killing scum while creating the best pro-town enviroment) with that im also shocked of how active stim-addict is being. its nice to see a usual lurker picking it up leaving less for the scum to hide behind :D again, even Superfluous is at the top of my scumdar, he isnt high enough to deserve a vote yet. I want to lynch a lurker or superfluous depending on how he reacts to our posts and the events of the day. if the rest of it goes uneventful/no major scumslips i want to fuck up a lurker as i believe that to be the best pro-town action. Rainbows is active and is claiming credit for the StiM wagon. If StiM is town, as I suspect, I don't think scum would be claiming lead on an eventual green flip: On July 13 2013 15:43 Rainbows wrote:
Sponge, I started the whole Stim thing. Chrom just questioned both of us then pooped all over him with it :p Planet Neutral:I've found confusing material on Chrom that some may deem scummy (misrepresenting facts, leaping to conclusions, overblowing alignment-neutral mistakes). However, he also did his usual early game Poke'n'Prod, getting people to clarify their random claims that might otherwise have gone unchecked (very town). Umasi is incredibly active, and hunting. The logic leaps, confirmation bias, and clumsy attacks aren't really helping the town, however (other than to just provide really obvious pressure). If there was a shade between Green and Black, I'd use it because I think the three options for Umasi are 'Bad Town' 'Good Scum' and 'Good Town That I Just Have Trouble Reading For Whatever Reason'. Scum Central:Superfluous has a lot of ground to make up. I don't like people attacking him for his bad policy, but at the end of the day, that's not the only thing going against him. I really disagree with his reads, and that has to account for something: On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 10:49 StiMaDDict wrote:
I may be biased but I put Chromatically as the most capable scumhunter. In last game, he pretty much had the whole scum team Day1. It goes without saying that I do not Chromatically's alignment as of right now.
@Chromatically Your current scum reads? Superfluous looks really bad, he's been apologetic in his posts (not trying to rock the boat) and has only said what others have already said. It looks like he's trying hard to find anything to post about because he wants to look active. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 09:55 Umasi wrote:
Superfluous, do you have any current scum reads? At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e. Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though. It's extremely odd that he specifically points out Cloud-9 as opposed to any of the other players who haven't posted. This shows pretty clearly that he's not trying at all to find scum, he doesn't even know who hasn't posted. Also looking at Kirby. Lurkers be lurking. As I said I just skimmed over after returning. Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out. And I have been trying to get something to talk about other than what seem to be mini discussions between certain people. I also don't get why you're attacking me saying "I'm not trying to find scum". In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet. Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. I'll give nightcat benefit of the doubt. It's a bit weird he showed up once his name came up but eh. I realize thats not really a great reason but seems like we're in semi-similar situations. Xzavier I'm more suspicious of, he didnt have many posts then in his first one he shows up saying he'll consider lynching me. It's really scummy play to lurk then show up ready to lynch imo. These are some wierd-ass wierd reads (formatted in a list, might I add...). You give town reads to a large number of people based on almost nothing? You say that me and Umasi are actively scumhunting, and then say we're null? All followed by a sheep on Super while waiting to commit to Stim. It all feels really odd. Why is xzavier more townie then Umasi/me? Why did you post town reads in the first place? I'm surprised you do not agree with my reads. I shall re-evaluate them. You are Neutral to me for the reasons I mentioned: while you and Umasi are scumhunting (+), I believe you're doing it in an anti-town manner (-). That is: making logical leaps, confirmation bias, poor analysis. Scum can scumhunt too, and that's exactly how I imagine they'd do it. I also don't feel like I'm sheeping Superfluous. I raised some independent analysis regarding him in my earlier post (centering on the fact that our reads are very different, signifying a disconnect from my own POV that is significant enough to be Town-Scum). Are there any other glaring mistakes in particular you'd like to hear my thoughts on? Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 19:37 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 15:53 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 15:43 Rainbows wrote:
Sponge, I started the whole Stim thing. Chrom just questioned both of us then pooped all over him with it :p Chrom has made a couple missteps that I would consider 'uncharacteristic'. At the very least, they are poor play I did not expect from him. 1. His enthusiasm to lynch StiM after the blow-up (surely we can all see that it was more likely immature and pissy play from StiM and alignment-independent) contained logical leaks and overblows the importance of whether StiM lied about being mad or not. 2. Saying Superfluous was trying to not 'make waves' when he was the lone voice speaking up for an unpopular policy (Day 1 No Lynch) More importantly, when viewed as a whole, the bolded section above is a big stop sign on my vote to lynch StiM: Why would scum not alert StiM that everyone and their mother knew the jokepost was a joke and let him carry on in this manner? He'd have to be willfully disobeying his team, or (more likely) flying solo. If someone can give me a satisfactory answer to that, I'd feel much better about a StiM lynch. 1) You seem confident that Stim's blowup was alignment independent, can you address my earlier posts about why it's more likely from scum? I think it's pretty hard to overblow the importance of someone lying about their motivation without being able to explain it. You disagree? 2) The apologetic tone is the entire reason why Super looks bad. He's trying not to draw attention to himself and not to incite anyone (scummy). The Nolynch thing is totally non alignment indicative, which you should know. Explain your scumread on Super more. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 10:49 StiMaDDict wrote:
I may be biased but I put Chromatically as the most capable scumhunter. In last game, he pretty much had the whole scum team Day1. It goes without saying that I do not Chromatically's alignment as of right now.
@Chromatically Your current scum reads? Superfluous looks really bad, he's been apologetic in his posts (not trying to rock the boat) and has only said what others have already said. It looks like he's trying hard to find anything to post about because he wants to look active. On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote:On July 13 2013 09:55 Umasi wrote:
Superfluous, do you have any current scum reads? At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e. Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though. It's extremely odd that he specifically points out Cloud-9 as opposed to any of the other players who haven't posted. This shows pretty clearly that he's not trying at all to find scum, he doesn't even know who hasn't posted. Also looking at Kirby. Lurkers be lurking. As I said I just skimmed over after returning. Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out. And I have been trying to get something to talk about other than what seem to be mini discussions between certain people. I also don't get why you're attacking me saying "I'm not trying to find scum". In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet. Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of. I'll give nightcat benefit of the doubt. It's a bit weird he showed up once his name came up but eh. I realize thats not really a great reason but seems like we're in semi-similar situations. Xzavier I'm more suspicious of, he didnt have many posts then in his first one he shows up saying he'll consider lynching me. It's really scummy play to lurk then show up ready to lynch imo. I really don't like that last part where he gives one lurker the FoS, but a second one a free pass in the same post. I don't like that his reads seem diametrically opposed to mine, which implies a significant difference in frame-of-reference. I don't like his case on HZ (which is a case in name only). I don't like that he's suspicious of townies who enter the thread willing to lynch. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 21:48 Chromatically wrote:
Sponge, could you also elaborate on you Umasi read? As I told Umasi late last night when we were the only two in the thread, I love his scumhunting, but I cringe at his methods. He's got a big problem with confirmation bias and attacking his target when he should just be poking, bringing the level of discourse down into the mud too soon. Like I said in the earlier post, I think he's Green-Black: Bad Town, Good Scum, or Good Town That I Just Can't Read. The early game aggression is much preferred to the alternative (lurking), but if he keeps some of these traits up into the late game, I'm worried for town. Moving on: Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 21:54 Koshi wrote:I am from Belgium guys, This game started at 12PM and I was tired after a working week. I read the thread once now and my initial (this is without using filters, just reading all the posts) is that H.Sponge build enough town kred to not get lynched day 1 no matter what. I loved his opening post, and I loved his defense on that post. Even if he is scum, he has been very helpful to town, and every town should go and read that opening post. Scum reads are on Umasi and Chroma. Umasi because his entire early posts were just sucking up to H.Sponge, which is just not useful at all, H. Sponge clearly doesn't need to be defended like this. Another thing I dont like about Umasi is him trying to redirect the thread twice for a Superfluous train on a rather useless moment. Superfluous entered the thread with a bad post, but went afk after, which is not a clear scumread. Not enough the get a train going, and make the rest of the day useless. Chroma is currently tunneling so heavily on StiMaDDict. The guy is afk, treat him as an afk bad town till he comes back. It is a good thing to spark some conversation around StiMaDDict, but at this point I feel that Chroma is derailing more than necessarily. It's just tunneling into oblivion. I start filtering now: Reading Chroma his filter I get a serious scum vibe. Post like this: On July 13 2013 11:39 Chromatically wrote:
Also just noticed that Sponge hasn't given a single opinion on anyone all game after saying that he wanted people to judge him on his scumhunting, interesting. This is just being a jack-ass, at least it would be if you say things like this in real life. In mafia it is trying to put suspicion onto somebody without saying anything. I haven't crosschecked this message with the referring Sponge message but it feels dirty. What was your intention while typing this down Chromo? @ Chromo, Do you agree that this is a very suspicious post? And explain to me why it is "interesting" that Sponge likes to have interaction on his scumreads while playing this game? Reading Umasi his filter after the Chroma filter makes me want to lynch one of these 2 guys. Umasi and Chroma are either bromancing it up on the stimaddict lynch, or they are both scum. Here is Umasi his game till now: --> Defend Sponge while pushing lynch on Superfluous. --> Argue with Sponge about Chroma while pusing a lynch on StiMaDDict. I hate Umasi and Chrom as lynch targets for Day 1. Town does not want to lynch guys this active and scumhunting this hard. Regardless of the fact that I think Superfluous is scummier at this point, I'd push for a Lurker lynch over one of either of Umasi or Chrom.
What I saw wierd about your reads is:
a) town reads on Kirby and Xzav with very little reasoning
b) not a lot of reasoning on Super, but you said that he's miles ahead of the next best, Umasi ( I actually misread this though, I missed the lurkers part)
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 16:37 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 16:02 Umasi wrote:
Alright, here, hurricane. Who do you think is worth voting at this time?
From your post, I got the gist that it'd be Superfluous or me. Is that correct? More like Superfluous, Lurkers, Gulf of Mexico, Mariana's Trench, then you. I'd be a fool to vote for one of the few reliably active players that isn't overtly anti-town over a Lurker at this point (it's always in the back of my mind that literally everyone who has posted is town, and there are 3 lurking scum just laughing and drinking champaign in their QT.)
Not something I'm going to push at all now due to the misreading, you'd make a bad D1 lynch in any case.
I don't get your town reads on Kirby and Xzav though, they're top of my radar right now.
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We don't need to consolidate, we have more than half the day left.
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Kirby
Stim's case on Kirby takes a lot of stuff that's not scummy and says it is, but it also has good points (some of which are probably repeated here).
Here's what I don't like:
a) fluff about Sponge's first post
b) wishy-washy reads
c) lurker list
d) Stim interactions
a) fluff about Sponge's first post
A large amount of Kirby's early posting is talking about Sponge's pregame post and trying to get him to post it. He only starts doing this light pressure AFTER I start it.
On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum?
Scum are always looking for some way to post so that they seem town without actually doing anything. This pregame thing is something VERY easy for scum to comment on and lightly push. He notices that I'm a little suspicious and seizes on it so that he can post something at all.
Notice how very lightly he's pressuring:
On July 13 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:47 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:46 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. But you might have posted another post starting with the same line. Or maybe you did post that as scum. But you certainly would never have said: The following was written on the contingency I got Scum in my role PM. Hahaha! Very right you are, I hadn't thought of that. So then show us the post that you would have posted if you rolled scum, eh?
On July 13 2013 09:03 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:54 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Umasi, stop defending me. Don't defend people in general. It's more valuable to hear them defend themselves by tenfold. (Also, I don't want you handcuffing yourself to my ankle then flipping scum and having Town waste a bunch of time re-vetting me.) On July 13 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:47 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:46 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. But you might have posted another post starting with the same line. Or maybe you did post that as scum. But you certainly would never have said: The following was written on the contingency I got Scum in my role PM. Hahaha! Very right you are, I hadn't thought of that. So then show us the post that you would have posted if you rolled scum, eh? This is a very reasonable request, but unfortunately I will not be posting it at this time for a couple reasons. First, it's not as impressive as the one I posted. Second, I intend to stay active in this community and will probably end up using a version of it at some point when (if?) I ever get that 'You Are Scum' PM. You ought to post it anyway. Having something that you'd post on the condition that you're scum is foolish in any respect, even if no one knows what it is. Ideally, a scum player would want to post the same way as scum as they do town in almost all situations.
The first one is a conversational question, the second one is a suggestion. When I pressure someone I think is suspicious, I don't "suggest" things to them and tell them "what they ought to do". He doesn't actually care about getting the post, he just wants to look like he does.
b) wishy-washy reads
On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. On July 13 2013 08:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:43 Rainbows wrote:On July 13 2013 08:41 Umasi wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
The following was written on the contingency I got Town in my role PM. I generally don't like early Day 1 town conversations because it's 100% fluff and teasing and clouds the filters. Necessary evil? Perhaps. But let's try to kick this game into overdrive early, shall we?
Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? On July 13 2013 08:20 Rainbows wrote:
[quote]
This post is scummy. Gives a reason for jkirbys post and then casts doubt on it. U scum? I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation as to why you honestly think this is scummy. I certainly wouldn't post that if I were scum, it is nothing but a good thing for town. Why WOULD he want to post that as scum? to look town. Scum love to spew general pro town thingsvto get ez town cred.. This is correct. In general, these sorts of posts should result in a null read in a veteran game. But Early Day 1, when it's generally assumed nothing interesting is happening, seemed like a good time to get PSA's out of the way for a newbie crowd. The info is valuable, but it should not get me town cred. It's more important to me that there's a town consensus on the actual content of the post, not my alignment. (Plenty of time for that later.) You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum. But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town. ? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious.
On July 13 2013 09:46 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:41 Umasi wrote:On July 13 2013 09:35 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:30 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote:On July 13 2013 09:14 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 09:10 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:57 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On July 13 2013 08:54 Chromatically wrote:On July 13 2013 08:42 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
[quote]
Correct. I would not have posted this particular post as scum. On July 13 2013 08:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
[quote]
This is correct. In general, these sorts of posts should result in a null read in a veteran game. But Early Day 1, when it's generally assumed nothing interesting is happening, seemed like a good time to get PSA's out of the way for a newbie crowd.
The info is valuable, but it should not get me town cred. It's more important to me that there's a town consensus on the actual content of the post, not my alignment. (Plenty of time for that later.) You obviously think that your post was pro town, right? That's why you shouldn't have posted it as scum. But then you say that you shouldn't get town cred from it, indicating that you don't think it's pro town. ? Pro town in a newbie game, yes. Probably wouldn't have posted it in a Veteran game unless I really felt the Day 1 conversation stagnating early. I think all my posts are pro-town. Otherwise, why would I post them? (That should apply to everyone but those with a severe inferiority complex.) That doesn't answer the point. The point is that your logic is inconsistant. You say that you wouldn't have posted this as scum. Why? You think that the post is valuable enough to town that scum wouldn't want to post it. You think that only a townie would post it. However, you say that you shouldn't get a town read for it, even though you think that only town would post it. I'm not in the business of telling people I'm town. I'm going to scumhunt and try to win this game, and a byproduct of that should be that people will view me as town. Put another way: I don't believe posting specifically with the goal of acquiring towncred is particularly helpful in anything but circumstances where I could be mislynched. I'm prioritizing getting the Town ducks in a row here in the early going so we can move on to the scumhunt, not establishing my Townie-ness. Interestingly, people (Chrom and jrkirby) have seemed more interested in analyzing why I posted rather than what I posted. Can I infer by this that we largely agree with what I have said? Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. Seriously man.. this is the best you can do? If he has scum post, big deal. For all we know THIS could be his scum post. Who knows. Is this your first game jrkirby? "For all we know, THIS could be his scum post." That's exactly what I was trying to get information on. Here was my reasoning: if this is his scum post, then he won't HAVE a real scum post. But it's been long enough that he could've written another one by now, so no point in pushing it anymore. No, this is my second game, kinda. Why is there no point in pushing it? There's no reason to not push it if you think it was scummy, and if you were pushing it for the sake of having something to do, just go do something else. Still, more people, what do you think of Superfluous post and then disappearance? Me - "It's been long enough that he could've written another one by now." If he had posted one immediately after I had asked it means something different than if he posts one an hour or two after I asked. Superfluous's post & lurk is bad, but give him a bit, he might show back up.
On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote:Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank
This is just generic wishy-washiness and unwillingness to commit to reads. Townies have at least some scum reads that they provide to the thread and push, at least a little. Kirby hasn't pushed a scumread all game. Kirby hasn't even had a scumread that he couldn't easily back out of. As scum, Kirby can easily justify a vote on anyone now because he doesn't have any reads out there.
c) lurker list
On July 13 2013 10:13 jrkirby wrote:
Koshi
Xzavier
Nightcat99
Gotard
cloud-9
These players haven't posted anything/enough in my opinion. It's only been a couple hours, so you might be asleep/ at work. But just a PSA, these are currently "lurkers".
This should be pretty obvious, but lurker lists are scummy in general.
Everyone knows who hasn't posted. There's no reason to post something like this as town, it's totally useless.
Scum sometimes do stuff like this because they really really want to look useful. Scum think that lists like this will look pro town and give them something to post about so that they seem active.
d) Stim interactions
On July 13 2013 09:32 jrkirby wrote:
Keep your cool stim, rainbows just misinterpreted your post, that's all.
On July 13 2013 13:21 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:14 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 13:08 Umasi wrote:
Nightcat, the best way to establish innocence is to scum hunt, it's always time to scumhunt. Apparently I'm the scummiest fucking bastard in this game. Jump on board the StiM wagon and earn easy town cred! You know, I'm done. Contribute? Yeah fucking right. Sit in front of the computer for 6 fucking hours refreshing and trying to god damn contribute and what I get is "so you weren't angry but you pretended to be angry?" Town shouldn't lie about that. I wasn't fucking lying. Jesus. w/e. Cool it dude. For all you know, the people voting for you could be scum trying to get you riled up. Just calm down, post reads, question things, and have a good game. You won't play your best when you're tilting. You're in no way doomed right now.
Kirby consoles Stim twice during the game. Read both of these (especially the second one), and ask yourself why does it seem like Kirby KNOWS that Stim is town?
Look at that second quote. "You won't play your best when you're tilting." There's not a HINT of doubt in that post that Stim is town. That's not something that you post to someone that you're even slightly suspicious of.
"Well this makes sense if he has a town read on Stim, right?"
On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread.
Apart from the simple fact that he's trying to leave his options open to switch on the wagon later, this is COMPLETELY at odds with his subconscious attitude toward Stim in the previous conversation.
##Unvote
##Vote: jrkirby
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On July 14 2013 06:03 Umasi wrote:
Chrom, do you now think that StiM is town?
No, but I'm far less confident in him being scum than others. The Stim case was purely the lying point and the ragequit one, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding him (and the ragequit isn't as big of a problem anymore). I like other people far less.
Everyone should give their thoughts on my Kirby case (and look at his filter yourselves), I think it's very very convincing.
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No no no, it's not an association at all. That's actually my favorite part of the whole thing.
If Kirby KNOWS that Stim is town, then he is 100% scum. That is a fact, not a preflip association.
Kirby's interactions with Stim make it seem like he either KNOWS, or he STRONGLY SUSPECTS that Stim is town. However, he doesn't suspect this at all, he has a null read.
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On July 13 2013 13:21 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 13:14 StiMaDDict wrote:On July 13 2013 13:08 Umasi wrote:
Nightcat, the best way to establish innocence is to scum hunt, it's always time to scumhunt. Apparently I'm the scummiest fucking bastard in this game. Jump on board the StiM wagon and earn easy town cred! You know, I'm done. Contribute? Yeah fucking right. Sit in front of the computer for 6 fucking hours refreshing and trying to god damn contribute and what I get is "so you weren't angry but you pretended to be angry?" Town shouldn't lie about that. I wasn't fucking lying. Jesus. w/e. Cool it dude. For all you know, the people voting for you could be scum trying to get you riled up. Just calm down, post reads, question things, and have a good game. You won't play your best when you're tilting. You're in no way doomed right now.
Maybe I'm doing a little confirmation bias, but this post does not seem like he's talking to someone he is suspicious of.
The bottom line overall is that he's posting a fair bit, but not giving any scumreads at all.
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Trying to stay alive isn't a scumtell though. Let's say that you come back to the thread and see a case on you. Your forat order of business, as would be any townie's, is to defend yourself.
I really think that Super is just new. His posting doesn't feel like scum. He makes an honest effort to scumhunt, he points out things that he thinks are scummy (ex: one random sponge post).
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I just reread hz's case, and I really don't like it. He calls out a lot of things that aren't actually scummy. Look at the summary:
To conclude, Super's priorities seem to be
1) Stay Alive
2) Find a person to vote for
3) Find justifications for voting
This is literally a list of objectives as either alignment. Town obviously wants to stay alive. Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town.
The difference between the alignments is that town want to find scum, and mafia doesn't actually want to. Super looks like he's honestly trying to find scum.
In particular, I really like these two posts:
On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote:Going back through the posts, I'm a little alarmed at Hurricane Sponge's change of tone. In this post he disagrees with my opinion and says it casts suspicion on me, but doesnt state that I'm a huge scumread or anything. Here I interpreted his post as acknowledging that while we disagree, I was still trying to state my opinion and reasons for having that view. He then says some weird things here though. For instance, he says that he agrees with others' view of me who had semi-defended me, and in the same list puts me as the only scum read. I realize his view may have changed, but it strikes me especially considering in the second post I listed he acknowledged the possibility of a bandwagon on me just because of differing opinions. We also have a mutual disagreement on reads as well. I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. As for Stim I think he's more likely bad town then mafia. Then again everyone else is saying the same thing, so could be mafia excuse for not lynching him. On July 14 2013 04:37 Superfluous wrote:
Also, idk what is up with jrkirby. If there was a third party that'd be my guess for him, right now just null read I guess though. This is because his play has been somewhat erratic with no clear goal to me other than tunneling on Sponge, which didn't really do much. He strikes me as the type of player who could be dangerous late game for us because he seems hard to read. Im curious jrkirby, what has been your goal with your posts thus far?
Super wasn't under any pressure when he posted these. He's actively reading the thread, looking for scum, and most importantly sharing his thought process with the thread. This is very, very genuine and townie.
Basically:
Super is trying to find scum, even if it doesn't look like it at first glance.
Kirby is NOT trying to find scum, but he's trying to look like he is.
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Umasi, why do you think Super > Kirby?
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It'd be a weird (read:stupid) thing to say as scum (because of how odd/suspicious it is). It's possible that he posted it as scum to look more genuine, though. Nothing big enough to affect anything, slightly town from that line at best.
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What townie things has Kirby done (sorry if they've already been mentioned)?
What do you think about the two posts I pointed out? Do you think they're likely to come from scum?
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On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote:
jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person..
Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super?
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On July 15 2013 00:06 hzflank wrote:Also Chrom, What is this?: Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote:
Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town. No it is not! Finding a reason to vote for someone is town. Finding a person to vote for with reasons is very much not town. What concerns me right now is that you know that. I cannot believe that you believe that.
... are you seriously arguing semantics?
Both town and scum want to vote someone with reasoning. That's what I do. That's what you do. That's what generic scum player #2 does. The difference is that town is honestly trying to find scum. I've already said this.
I'm really tempted to do a large defense of Super where I go through your cases point by point, but I'll leave it up to you if you'd rather hear from Super first.
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On July 15 2013 00:44 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:21 Chromatically wrote:On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote:
jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person.. Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean?
No, you just messed up.
Both cases are about playstyle. Both cases are spread out over a period. Neither case is nitpicking sentences. Both cases are looking at the content of the posting. You're just making stuff up.
Your post implied that you were going to switch onto Kirby if he didn't post. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective.
You found the case on Super more convincing, but if neither of them posted, you would have switched onto Kirby? No logical town reason for that.
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If someone finds any part of that defense convincing, I can respond to it, but it doesn't change anything at all.
Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum.
The point is that Kirby hasn't given any real scumreads and hasn't actually been trying to find them.
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Chromatically thinks anyone who posts a list of lurkers is automatically scum
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Not quite sure why you'd feel the need to blatantly and obviously misrepresent my case on you if you're town.
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EPT
