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marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:14 GMT
#2641
By the way Jarjar (if you're reading this) I don't 'blame' you for your mislynch or anything.

I was really sure gumshoe and WoS weren't mafia, and that's what you were pushing. It was my bad for not distinguishing wrong and scum, and for being too afraid to push s0lstice.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
July 09 2013 15:16 GMT
#2642
Actually, one thing that struck me also is how bad an argument like "you are not thinking from the X PoV right now, therefore you are scum" really is. It was stuff like that which almost killed both me and Rayn on D1 and I even fell for it myself during D2 when I thought WoS was scum just because he played the "wrong" way. Even with the same role, some people just plays a different way than you, and just because they do, its not a scum tell at all.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:18 GMT
#2643
Kind of annoying to be pushed by both rayn and Vivax as scum because I looked over your filter and didn't want to lynch you. That was kinda unfortunate.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
July 09 2013 15:19 GMT
#2644
dont claim miller and afk day 1 marv.
No gg, No skill.
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
July 09 2013 15:20 GMT
#2645
On July 10 2013 00:16 Lazermonkey wrote:
Actually, one thing that struck me also is how bad an argument like "you are not thinking from the X PoV right now, therefore you are scum" really is. It was stuff like that which almost killed both me and Rayn on D1 and I even fell for it myself during D2 when I thought WoS was scum just because he played the "wrong" way. Even with the same role, some people just plays a different way than you, and just because they do, its not a scum tell at all.

This is a very interesting point---I get suspected a lot I think in part because I don't think the way people expect me to think I guess? (It often works in my favour because I don't get lynched or NKed)
A lot of people however (including me at times) do their scumhunting by trying to think from a scum or town POV. How can you really avoid falling into the trap of thinking people are scum just because they don't act the way you expect them to?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:21 GMT
#2646
I was really, really stoned all weekend. I hadn't appreciated how much that would impair my ability to read and do things.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
s0Lstice
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1832 Posts
July 09 2013 15:21 GMT
#2647
On July 09 2013 23:35 marvellosity wrote:
WoS played just fine and deserved to win. So did you Lazer. So did Oats until he disappeared. gumshoe was great on day 2, and it was my own fault/lack of confidence that meant I never pushed s0l properly day 3 even though I was surer of him. I knew something wrong when s0lstice pseudo-defended JarJar on that day, that was never what a scum does to another scum under huge pressure... that was a huge mistake from me to pick it up and then not process the obvious implications. Vivax went for a game-long throw, Stutters managed to mimic his townplay pretty well.


Do you think I'd have been better off joining the jar jar wagon? I thought for sure if I did that town would get off jar jar as we would then pretty much all be agreeing on him.
ATOBTTR
Oatsmaster
Profile Joined October 2012
United States16628 Posts
July 09 2013 15:23 GMT
#2648
On July 10 2013 00:21 marvellosity wrote:
I was really, really stoned all weekend. I hadn't appreciated how much that would impair my ability to read and do things.

no kidding.
I guess you had a good weekend though
No gg, No skill.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:23 GMT
#2649
On July 10 2013 00:20 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:16 Lazermonkey wrote:
Actually, one thing that struck me also is how bad an argument like "you are not thinking from the X PoV right now, therefore you are scum" really is. It was stuff like that which almost killed both me and Rayn on D1 and I even fell for it myself during D2 when I thought WoS was scum just because he played the "wrong" way. Even with the same role, some people just plays a different way than you, and just because they do, its not a scum tell at all.

This is a very interesting point---I get suspected a lot I think in part because I don't think the way people expect me to think I guess? (It often works in my favour because I don't get lynched or NKed)
A lot of people however (including me at times) do their scumhunting by trying to think from a scum or town POV. How can you really avoid falling into the trap of thinking people are scum just because they don't act the way you expect them to?


It's not a 'trap', because it's a legitimate way to find mafia. You just have to qualify it with "would *this person* think like this".

Pretty decent example was you claiming a shot on me. My assessment was that WoS wouldn't do that as town, and that was correct.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:26 GMT
#2650
On July 10 2013 00:21 s0Lstice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2013 23:35 marvellosity wrote:
WoS played just fine and deserved to win. So did you Lazer. So did Oats until he disappeared. gumshoe was great on day 2, and it was my own fault/lack of confidence that meant I never pushed s0l properly day 3 even though I was surer of him. I knew something wrong when s0lstice pseudo-defended JarJar on that day, that was never what a scum does to another scum under huge pressure... that was a huge mistake from me to pick it up and then not process the obvious implications. Vivax went for a game-long throw, Stutters managed to mimic his townplay pretty well.


Do you think I'd have been better off joining the jar jar wagon? I thought for sure if I did that town would get off jar jar as we would then pretty much all be agreeing on him.


No, because in these situations, town expects scum to be bussing a liability (which jarjar was if he was mafia).

On July 07 2013 16:14 s0Lstice wrote:
So here's where I'm at. I didn't have time to get to WoS tonight, but I re-read JJD and Stutters.

There's a few things about JJD that make me nervous about this lynch.

First, day 1 there is a Rayn lynch wagon. A JJD wagon forms counter to it, and here is what JJD says:

Show nested quote +
On July 01 2013 11:02 JarJarDrinks wrote:
OK. Rayne's kinda convinced me that he's town over the last few pages. I think he's legit pissed @ oats. I'd prefer not lynching rayn (though if I have to vote him to save myself I obviously will).

I laid out my case against Solstice already. He'd be my preferred lynch today.


Vivax and Oats are calling for Rayn's head, and at this point there is a possibility that Rayn is lynched. I think it would be odd for JJ to not go in here. More, he called Rayn scum earlier, so the groundwork was already laid for him to get on the Rayn wagon. Instead, he recognizes some pretty townie posting by Rayn, and backs off, despite it possibly meaning his own head.

There have been flashes of real clairvoyant and solid analysis like this:

Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 03:06 JarJarDrinks wrote:
On July 02 2013 01:02 gumshoe wrote:
On the one hand I think well be doing scums job for them by revealing our blues. On the other, sure, it could work, but the decision needs to be semi unanimous(like 5-8 people) or it wont be of much use to town, and it'll be a huge boon to scum(who can weed out blues). I vote yes, if five or so more people agree then I'll reveal at around the same time as them, shall we say six hours before the vote(not sure how to juggle pst and what not)?.
OK so here he's trying to sow seeds of doubt in the mass roleclaim plan even though it's been pretty much agreed on that it's an incredibly powerfull play. Like why mention those things and then vote yes?

And yes, name revealing feels broken and cheap and would actually lessen my enjoyment of this game.
So then why vote yes? Vayne voted against it for this same reason. The only reason to vote yes is because he's scared to post anything that would apear to be anti-town.

He's knows the mass roleclaim is detrimental to scum. He'd trying to use 2 seperate excuses as to why we shouldn't do it and hoping that one of em sticks. The problem is those excuses directly clash with each other. Either it's a huge boon to scum or it's broken and cheap. How can it be both?


The scummiest looking thing about him imo is his actions around the day 1 lynch, and it's so on the nose scummy looking that I'm left getting townie vibes off it, as weird as that sounds. What kind of scum drops an explanationless (and I mean totally explanationless) vote on a counter wagon to a now confirmed scum? It's so suicidally stupid and careless; I think it's unlikely that a scum JJ does this.

Also he is currently not playing to his scum meta. You can refer back to that case I wrote on him, the games are in there. I wouldn't call him tunnely this game.

What do you guys think of this stuff?



This *should have* made it abundantly clear that you were not mafia with JarJar. Your mafia buddy is leading in votes and is going to get lynched... not a chance you semi-but-not-really defend him like this. Like zero chance. So both of you aren't mafia at this point. Along with your weird defence of Vayne, that really should have been enough to start solving the game on. My error/lack of confidence again.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
July 09 2013 15:27 GMT
#2651
On July 10 2013 00:23 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:20 WaveofShadow wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:16 Lazermonkey wrote:
Actually, one thing that struck me also is how bad an argument like "you are not thinking from the X PoV right now, therefore you are scum" really is. It was stuff like that which almost killed both me and Rayn on D1 and I even fell for it myself during D2 when I thought WoS was scum just because he played the "wrong" way. Even with the same role, some people just plays a different way than you, and just because they do, its not a scum tell at all.

This is a very interesting point---I get suspected a lot I think in part because I don't think the way people expect me to think I guess? (It often works in my favour because I don't get lynched or NKed)
A lot of people however (including me at times) do their scumhunting by trying to think from a scum or town POV. How can you really avoid falling into the trap of thinking people are scum just because they don't act the way you expect them to?


It's not a 'trap', because it's a legitimate way to find mafia. You just have to qualify it with "would *this person* think like this".

Pretty decent example was you claiming a shot on me. My assessment was that WoS wouldn't do that as town, and that was correct.
But then you would really need to know said persons play if you are ever going to pull an argument like that off, otherwise it feels like it would be WIFOM really. Over half of the players that was on me for "not thinking the correct way" was players I had never played with before...
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:28 GMT
#2652
On July 10 2013 00:27 Lazermonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:23 marvellosity wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:20 WaveofShadow wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:16 Lazermonkey wrote:
Actually, one thing that struck me also is how bad an argument like "you are not thinking from the X PoV right now, therefore you are scum" really is. It was stuff like that which almost killed both me and Rayn on D1 and I even fell for it myself during D2 when I thought WoS was scum just because he played the "wrong" way. Even with the same role, some people just plays a different way than you, and just because they do, its not a scum tell at all.

This is a very interesting point---I get suspected a lot I think in part because I don't think the way people expect me to think I guess? (It often works in my favour because I don't get lynched or NKed)
A lot of people however (including me at times) do their scumhunting by trying to think from a scum or town POV. How can you really avoid falling into the trap of thinking people are scum just because they don't act the way you expect them to?


It's not a 'trap', because it's a legitimate way to find mafia. You just have to qualify it with "would *this person* think like this".

Pretty decent example was you claiming a shot on me. My assessment was that WoS wouldn't do that as town, and that was correct.
But then you would really need to know said persons play if you are ever going to pull an argument like that off, otherwise it feels like it would be WIFOM really. Over half of the players that was on me for "not thinking the correct way" was players I had never played with before...


Yes, that is an issue. People have different playstyles and think in different ways.

Then again, town and mafia obviously DO approach the game differently, and a decent part of working out a game is picking out these differences. It's just making sure they're town/scum differences and not just playstyle differences within a certain player.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
July 09 2013 15:29 GMT
#2653
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.
I come in for the scraps
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
July 09 2013 15:32 GMT
#2654
On July 10 2013 00:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.


Out of curiosity, how might you say you'd have played differently on day 1 this game if you were mafia?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 15:34:25
July 09 2013 15:33 GMT
#2655
On July 10 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.


Out of curiosity, how might you say you'd have played differently on day 1 this game if you were mafia?


On July 02 2013 01:16 VayneAuthority wrote:
can we agree collectively as a game to not claim roles in this open setup? It's pretty broken and I didn't sign up for a lets all claim and lynch at 50/50 game.

With that said I am mainly looking at lazer/WoS now.

Lazer's posting has been fairly more townie as of recently but the fact that he OMGUS'd me from my accusations is a bit alarming when he gave very little reasoning. It seems like he's trying to keep himself on the good side of most of the people in the game so instead of scum hunting he just goes right back at the accuser.

As for WoS I am not really a fan of what he's done so far, he has been very passive yet exceedingly angry which is somewhat how he played in Les Mis. The fact that he says I am playing differently and doesn't know what to make of it leads me to believe that he knows I am town somehow, might have been a scumslip.


this post tells you im town, 100%

I wouldn't give a shit if i was scum

think of it this way, why would I care about massclaim if I was scum? I dont have to solve the game, so it doesnt ruin my fun at all.

it COMPLETELY ruins the fun of the game as town.
I come in for the scraps
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
July 09 2013 15:38 GMT
#2656
On July 10 2013 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.


Out of curiosity, how might you say you'd have played differently on day 1 this game if you were mafia?


Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 01:16 VayneAuthority wrote:
can we agree collectively as a game to not claim roles in this open setup? It's pretty broken and I didn't sign up for a lets all claim and lynch at 50/50 game.

With that said I am mainly looking at lazer/WoS now.

Lazer's posting has been fairly more townie as of recently but the fact that he OMGUS'd me from my accusations is a bit alarming when he gave very little reasoning. It seems like he's trying to keep himself on the good side of most of the people in the game so instead of scum hunting he just goes right back at the accuser.

As for WoS I am not really a fan of what he's done so far, he has been very passive yet exceedingly angry which is somewhat how he played in Les Mis. The fact that he says I am playing differently and doesn't know what to make of it leads me to believe that he knows I am town somehow, might have been a scumslip.


this post tells you im town, 100%

I wouldn't give a shit if i was scum

think of it this way, why would I care about massclaim if I was scum? I dont have to solve the game, so it doesnt ruin my fun at all.

it COMPLETELY ruins the fun of the game as town.

Haha you SAY you wouldn't give a shit, but remember we weren't given any fakeclaims at that point.

I'm starting to see what you're saying about how you play differently every time, but wouldn't you say that's part of the reason people have trouble reading you as town?
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 15:43:19
July 09 2013 15:40 GMT
#2657
On July 10 2013 00:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.


Out of curiosity, how might you say you'd have played differently on day 1 this game if you were mafia?


On July 02 2013 01:16 VayneAuthority wrote:
can we agree collectively as a game to not claim roles in this open setup? It's pretty broken and I didn't sign up for a lets all claim and lynch at 50/50 game.

With that said I am mainly looking at lazer/WoS now.

Lazer's posting has been fairly more townie as of recently but the fact that he OMGUS'd me from my accusations is a bit alarming when he gave very little reasoning. It seems like he's trying to keep himself on the good side of most of the people in the game so instead of scum hunting he just goes right back at the accuser.

As for WoS I am not really a fan of what he's done so far, he has been very passive yet exceedingly angry which is somewhat how he played in Les Mis. The fact that he says I am playing differently and doesn't know what to make of it leads me to believe that he knows I am town somehow, might have been a scumslip.


this post tells you im town, 100%

I wouldn't give a shit if i was scum

think of it this way, why would I care about massclaim if I was scum? I dont have to solve the game, so it doesnt ruin my fun at all.

it COMPLETELY ruins the fun of the game as town.

Haha you SAY you wouldn't give a shit, but remember we weren't given any fakeclaims at that point.

I'm starting to see what you're saying about how you play differently every time, but wouldn't you say that's part of the reason people have trouble reading you as town?


I don't see any fun in being grush.

if the massclaim thing happened I would just CC a role and be done with it, I could care less about losing to abusing a game mechanic. I only care if people legitimately find me as scum through scumhunting, then I need to improve my play.

also my last post before I died..

On July 02 2013 05:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
I'd say stutters/fuba/lazer at this point. WoS hasn't posted enough wouldn't give us much info besides a bit on lazer, that's about it


WHY DID I HAVE TO GET LYNCHED
I come in for the scraps
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
July 09 2013 15:47 GMT
#2658
lol I did say this may have been the best town game you've played so far :D
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 15:50:37
July 09 2013 15:49 GMT
#2659
On July 10 2013 00:40 VayneAuthority wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2013 00:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:33 VayneAuthority wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:
On July 10 2013 00:29 VayneAuthority wrote:
lets just hope you guys stop trying to use that on me when I will never play the same way twice.


Out of curiosity, how might you say you'd have played differently on day 1 this game if you were mafia?


On July 02 2013 01:16 VayneAuthority wrote:
can we agree collectively as a game to not claim roles in this open setup? It's pretty broken and I didn't sign up for a lets all claim and lynch at 50/50 game.

With that said I am mainly looking at lazer/WoS now.

Lazer's posting has been fairly more townie as of recently but the fact that he OMGUS'd me from my accusations is a bit alarming when he gave very little reasoning. It seems like he's trying to keep himself on the good side of most of the people in the game so instead of scum hunting he just goes right back at the accuser.

As for WoS I am not really a fan of what he's done so far, he has been very passive yet exceedingly angry which is somewhat how he played in Les Mis. The fact that he says I am playing differently and doesn't know what to make of it leads me to believe that he knows I am town somehow, might have been a scumslip.


this post tells you im town, 100%

I wouldn't give a shit if i was scum

think of it this way, why would I care about massclaim if I was scum? I dont have to solve the game, so it doesnt ruin my fun at all.

it COMPLETELY ruins the fun of the game as town.

Haha you SAY you wouldn't give a shit, but remember we weren't given any fakeclaims at that point.

I'm starting to see what you're saying about how you play differently every time, but wouldn't you say that's part of the reason people have trouble reading you as town?


I don't see any fun in being grush.

if the massclaim thing happened I would just CC a role and be done with it, I could care less about losing to abusing a game mechanic. I only care if people legitimately find me as scum through scumhunting, then I need to improve my play.

also my last post before I died..

Show nested quote +
On July 02 2013 05:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
I'd say stutters/fuba/lazer at this point. WoS hasn't posted enough wouldn't give us much info besides a bit on lazer, that's about it


WHY DID I HAVE TO GET LYNCHED
Your reads were quite good actually but having good reads is just half the game, you have to convince other that your reads are correct as well. And you don't do that by going AFK 2 hours before lynch without saying anything about why you are going AFK or when you are comming back. I'm sorry, but I think you know quite well why you got lynched.
WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
July 09 2013 15:54 GMT
#2660
Come on, that was a legit awful lynch.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
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