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On July 03 2013 03:48 austinmcc wrote:
Gonzaw, why the wording in the OP, and why can 3Ps be town/anti-town if the only 3P is just a survivor.
Why does he not post his logs with geript and shoot me on D3 if just a survivor?
If the OP said "Alliance wins when Church die" and "Church wins when Alliance dies" then whoever claims 3P is "confirmed survivor" for all game long.
That makes the survivor the easiest role every in this game. Just claim survivor, and do nothing.
Nobody will kill you because it is confirmed in the OP that said guy wins with them
Since he isn't Church, town won't care about him since town don't have to kill him based on town's win-con
Since he isn't Town, scum won't care either since they don't have to kill him either
If he does shit and only votes himself every cycle or some shit, then he won't be helping either of them so both factions will give even less of a shit.
kita would only have to get the TARDIS, use it and pass it back, and do shit all game
Does that sound like either a balanced or fun game/role to you?
No, so hosts make the wording in the OP more vague so stuff (like what's happening now) happens.
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Yes, that's what I said.
That's why it doesn't say "Town wins when mafia die" or "Alliance wins when Church die", it says "Town wins when anti-town die"
The point is that the wording being like that doesn't 100% prove kita is SK or some shit like that.
Basically, the wording is irrelevant
The wording was your main case for "figuring out" kita as anti-town 3P. If the wording is irrelevant then we are at the same spot we were before, with us lynching you confirmed scum and kita just being survivor.
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On July 03 2013 04:00 austinmcc wrote:
Or, if you say that role would be shitty, then there are MULTIPLE ways to fix it.
Maybe you change the OP, sure.
Or maybe you just don't include a shitty role in the game, and you include a different role instead.
Again, you're working from "Kita is a survivor, survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, so the hosts made the OP way number 2 so it's not as shitty a role." But you're discarding "Survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, but instead of altering the OP to make survivor less shitty, the hosts just didn't make a survivor and made a different role instead."
Ehmm...kita's role right now WOULD be shitty if he doesn't win with both factions.
If what I said happened then kita would have no worries and wouldn't think his role is shitty, he has an easy win why would he? (granted if he doesn't fuck up obviously)
Also, if that was the case then he'd be confirmed survivor 3P as well in this game.
He just has to say this:
"Hello people, I am 3P survivor. Read OP I am confirmed to win with either of you, so I won't do anything and you just won't kill me. Why would you trust me? Because I need the TARDIS to win the game. The TARDIS is an item that I can activate and it passes around people.
Now there's no way the hosts would give scum knowledge of someone else's role like that. So if you are townie and created the TARDIS, please confirm this so I become confirmed 3P survivor
Also please give me the TARDIS today, I'll give it back to you, and I won't bother you anymore
Thanks bye"
Even if he wasn't 100% confirmed survivor, it would just take him a couple of cycles to prove himself and have the easiest win ever. Like that's happening yeah.
"Kita is a survivor, survivor is a shitty role if the OP was way number 1, so the hosts made the OP way number 2 so it's not as shitty a role."
Yes, and this is true. If kita is really survivor, it makes sense for the OP to be the way it is.
Yes, it also works the other way round, the OP is the way it is, and kita is not really survivor.
However, your arguments since the beginning stemmed assuming the 1st one wasn't true basically, if not then there would be 0 reason at all to use the wording of the OP as "proof" kita is not survivor, since it would very very easily be the case if he is.
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On July 03 2013 04:12 austinmcc wrote:
But it's not PROOF that he's a survivor either, which is how he was trying to spin it earlier, and you seem to be taking it now.
It's proof that your whole "epiphany" is based on a false premise. I fail to see how the rest of the stuff you mentioned after that (with the exception of him claiming traitor to you I guess) is justified at all based on that.
He had chances of being anti-town 3P before you made your "case"; and he does have chances of being anti-town 3P now yes
But you making that "case" makes no difference because that premise ("kita is anti-town 3P because of the wording of the OP") is false
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On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor.
I can see his play from that on as either scum-aligned survivor, as SK, or as neutral survivor.
He is not town, he can do whatever the fuck he wants based on that. He's entitled to do anything "anti-town" because.....he's not town.
You can't expect a survivor to side with town 100% of the time, specially if town are in a bad position (BC shooting Xata, kita killing Dandel, and austin SUPPOSEDLY unvoting geript to make it 3v2v1 last night..or 3v1v1 I don't remember).
I just can't believe his traitor/TARDIS collector/survivor role would be in this game, that's all.
Well Xfire, that's my opinion, I think we should lynch austin today.
You say we have like 75% chances of winning against austin inthe WIFOM battle? Well I really have no idea how that's possible lol (will think about it later).
If you think you want to take the safe route and lynch kita, if you think we have a higher chance of winning as well, then feel free to do so (I hope this isn't a bluff or something because its only purpose would be confusing me lol)
You control 2 votes, so it's not like I won't change my vote back to kita and force a NL or something 
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You know...austin could very well have a hidden shit in his role as well. Like a hidden RB, or hidden KP, or some shit.
He would of course not tell anything about it.....maybe that 75% chance is a little bit lower Xfire (in case austin does have some other shit with his role)
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On July 03 2013 04:19 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:10 kitaman27 wrote:On July 03 2013 04:05 Crossfire99 wrote:On July 03 2013 03:50 gonzaw wrote:
The fact he shot solstice as soon as he claimed Doctor (or WOS claimed for him) which almost single-handily fucked scum, instead of like shooting me or BC or Acro, shows that he's not bullshitting with the TARDIS claim.
If he was traitor, fucking shoot me and let the lynch on solstice go through
If he was SK....then again shoot me or Acro, let town go crazy and shit, maybe misslynch more dudes, etc.
Instead he shot A GUY THAT WAS GETTING LYNCHED
That proves to me he is not SK.
Hell that could prove to me he's not traitor, since he wouldn't know the scumteam's plans by then (if he did he wouldn't have shot solstice to out the whole scumteam, scum would tell him "ehmm dude, why don't you shoot gonzaw or Acro or Xata and leave this D1 misslynch be, okay? Don't wanna get austin lynched".
I mean, unless the TARDIS is a super powerful shit that gives him 100 KP and makes him bulletproof or some shit I doubt kita would do that (if he DOESNT win with town). And if it does....then where is his 100 KP and bulletproof and shit? Gonzaw, I don't think he is a SK. I think he is an anti-town 3rd party. There is also something in role pm mentioning the TARDIS. I agree that's why he shot Solstice. But I disagree saying why would he do that if it hurt mafia. It is day 1, he doesn't know who scum were day 1. In fact he figured it out because of what he did with his shot. Look at what he did from Day 2 on and tell me how that comes from a neutral survivor and not scum-aligned survivor. An anti-town 3rd party that you are describing based on the win conditions listed in the OP has never existed in team liquid mafia history. It doesn't make sense from a game perspective and it doesn't make sense from a balance perspective. You're confusing what a neutral survivor actually means. A neutral survivor isn't neutral to both factions. He is going to pick one faction to win with and one faction to back stab. He win condition is surviving. I had an opportunity at 2v1v1 and I took it. It was an anti-town action to take a join mafia win, but a survivor is not an anti-town alignment and I can still win with town. I'm not saying neutral survivor doesnt choose a side. I'm saying he chooses the side he is most likely to win with. In this case it was town since bc shot scum day 2 and you could have too, but you decided to actively hinder town at every opportunity even though it made no sense to do so.
This is different than what you apparently said before..
Hmm...so Xfire, can you tell me exactly how anti-town kita would do that and why neutral kita wouldn't?
Do you mean something in particular, like the Dandel shot, or something else?
At that point kita's sole mission was not: dying to geript's shot, and not getting lynched. I don't think we could use D2 as evidence for anything.
Yes he could have shot austin with the TARDIS, just as easily as he could have shot Dandel. He's 3P he doesn't give a shit about pro-town stuff and that, he wants to do what's best for him.
I could see him thinking killing Dandel would be the best thing for him at that time, specially if austin/sk8 would get lynched (and he thought both were scum).
...or maybe not. I personally don't want to take that into account too much.
If you mean his later behaviour (stopping to make cases, etc), then yes it's a little worrying I suppose.
...ehmm...I dunno. It was night it'd be foolish of him to be pro-town at night without bulletproof shit. I guess he could have tried something else on D3 instead of insta-contacting scum if he knew there were only 2 of them...
...but yeah I dunno
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Didn't Kurumi claim the RB on BC or something?
Anyways that makes no sense since Zepphird didn't say anything about the role he created having a day-RB. Maybe hosts derped again and made it so the TARDIS refunds bullets without telling anybody else about it
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On July 03 2013 04:30 austinmcc wrote:
Just gonna note that, unless you think I'm psychic and pre-altered a couple of random posts in the middle of my conversation with geript, kita either altered his logs, selectively posted, or is lying about not knowing what happened to BC's shot.
Hmm, I'll think about that.
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The only options are:
1)Zepphird lied about the role
2)The day RB is part of kita's "alignment powers"
If (1) happened...why would town lie about that shit? Also wouldn't have Zepphird KNOW BC WAS RBed? He made a day-RBer and someone was day-RBed, wouldn't he say something?
If (2) happened...then why wasn't anybody else RBed? Is kita's day-RB only one-shot?
Why didn't he day-RB BC on D3 when BC explicitely said 100000 times he was going to shoot kita? Why didn't kita RB geript on D2 when geript MK'd him, so he could not waste his TARDIS ability?
Why didn't he RB Xfire today so he could actually vote and insta-win with scum?
What other alternative is there?
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Austin, maybe geript was just lying to you lol
Did you check if geript isn't actually a pro-town survivor that infiltrated the QT and was actively lying to you? I mean, he has a resurrection, role, what if he resurrects this N4 and decides to side with town?
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Anyways I haven't actually read all posts here since I left last night, gonna do that while I have time.
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Xfire, is there any time limit to using the TARDIS if someone shoots you?
Like, if someone day-vigs you 1 second into the day phase, what is the "deadline" in which you have to use the TARDIS, and if you do not you die to that shot? If you get day-vigged 1 second into the day phase, can you use the TARDIS to protect yourself 1 second before deadline? Or should it be instant?
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On July 03 2013 04:38 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:34 kitaman27 wrote:
Also, does your 75% calculation take into account that mafia almost certainly have a bus driver or self protect in their pocket?
We've established that I'm not mafia. Therefore, mafia would have no idea what I did to the TARDIS. When I asked if the TARDIS was a worry with my day shot, they flat out replied no. You don't speak in certainty like that unless you know it's not an issue. Yes, and I even might put my chances at 80%. The TARDIS is accounted for in my plans for tonight.
Well...I don't wanna put pressure on you or anything, but it's your choice then.
If we have like 80% chances of winning I don't give a shit about lynching kita either lol.
I made your role and have no idea wtf makes it so we win 80% of the time lol. Maybe hosts made it more OP without telling me > : (
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I will only say, yes, that story you said "fits" with him being anti-town 3P
Him just being an idiot who made "bad" decisions (well...anti-town decisions, we don't know if they are bad or not really) because he was pressured, about to die, and with little time (to use TARDIS for instance), is also a story I could believe with him being neutral 3P
Again, just because he's neutral doesn't mean he HAS to do everything pro-town ever. Killing a townie that was tunneling him to level the playing field a little bit (while still pushing a lynch on scum, since well in his mind scum would get lynched today maybe) would have made more sense to him.
I dunno, I dunno how 3rd parties think I was never one, so I dunno if that's how neutral survivor would think or not
But I know he was not town so I can't really make any assertion of him being "less" or "more" town...because he is not town period, he could theoretically do whatever the fuck he wants, even if he tells the truth and is neutral survivor.
If he was anti-town why did he make cases on the guys he thought were actually scum then (specially if he wins with scum)?
Well, for now I'll vote him just in case I leave or something unexpectedly
##Unvote: austin
##Vote: kitaman
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Guys okay stop
The TARDIS refunded BC's bullet instead of wasting it. Hosts fucked up, or it was a hidden nerf/whatever.
That's the simplest explanation, explains everything, and incidentally doesn't matter at all to our discussion
Any other alternative makes absolutely zero sense, either austin being RBer or kita being RBer (hint: more people would have claimed RBed by now)
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Well austin, maybe you SHOULD have asked geript to explain himself more clearly so we would 100% know right now kita is lying, lynch him and you would 100% live today
geript saying "yes and yes" doesn't tell me shit. Maybe he was answering something you posted before as well or something. Maybe he read bad and thought kita said something about it. Maybe he just deduced kita would have done it in his head but did so wrong, the hell would I know you guys are confirmed scum.
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For some reason I think kita wouldn't be lying about the RB right now if he had actually told geript that.
Why?:
1)Why the hell would we care kita RBed BC on D1? We already know that if we lynch austin and kita doesn't win with town we lose, if he does win with town we win. Why would we care about him having a hidden RB or some shit?
2)Wouldn't he think geript would tell his scumbuddy about it? If kita tells geript in his convo he RBed BC, it would be stupid not to assume geript wouldn't post it in the scum QT. Therefore he would KNOW you would catch him in a lie
Based on (1) and (2) it makes no sense for kita to actually have RBed BC, tell geript about it, but fake the log and call you a liar when it makes absolutely no difference at all.
Oh...yeah this is assuming he's anti-town 3P. Maybe he's such an idiot he would lie about all this shit as neutral 3P as well.
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On July 03 2013 04:59 kitaman27 wrote:
gonzaw, give me a percentage of likelihood that you think I've a survivor vs the chances that I'm a third party survivor that can only win with mafia and has to obtain the TARDIS all at once.
85% vs 15% I'd say
Or it could vary between 70% and 90% (I'm not good with percentages lol).
But well, Xfire says we can 80% win if we lynch you. If that "sure you are neutral 3P" percentage falls below 80% then I would want you lynched intead. If that percentage is above 80% then I would to lynch austin instead, and if the percentage is around 80% I wouldn't give a flying fuck.
I'm not really sure where that percentage is. I think it's above 80%, at least as I keep trying to convince myself you are neutral.
Maybe it falls to 60% if Xfire convinces me about it, I dunno.
I also don't really know wtf Xfire is saying or if he's bluffing lol.
But well.
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I think the fact I don't want this game to go for 72 more hours may have a slight (slight mind you) influence in me wanting to lynch austin
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EPT
