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On April 24 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote: A good portion of us have finals and such around this time. Activity will no doubt kick up again in the summer. What he said. I finish exams Friday so if it hasn't filled by then I may join.
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aight, let's do this. leeroyyyyyyyyy
/in
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Err, could you clarify "Non-mafia coaches will not be receiving the identities of the players that they are coaching."? It sounds as though if I'm town and PM a town coach then they won't know my user name, but you mean role instead? Are coaches ever given role identities, anyways? It seems like if they were it would introduce a lot of bias into the coaching. Also, a very outside the box question, but if coaches aren't given player identities then what stops a town from PMing mafia coach or vice versa to gain extra insight? Is this allowed?
Is the mafia KP still unblockable with only one remaining alive? Is SK KP is blockable?
Jailer and RB targeting each other cancel all abilities/will each be informed of roleblock?
Also, I'm confused about the role cop revealing roles. The OP says it doesn't reveal alignment, but the roles between town/mafia are not symmetrical so there is no counterpart for SK, medic, parity cop, or vigilante, so wouldn't the role reveal alignment because those roles are only possible in one alignment?
Thanks.
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Hey guys, glad to be playing. I'm hoping that we'll have good activity and I may be a little cross if you go MIA. The town benefits from clarity and direction so try to incorporate that into your posts and I will as well.
I'll start off by talking about a lurker lynch policy. I think it's beneficial to have a threat to lynch highly inactive players to try and force activity. In several past games lynching into the lurkers gave much better odds of hitting scum than the odds would be otherwise. Having said that, it's just a policy and obviously we should all pressure conversation, pursue reads, and lynch someone a better target if it comes about.
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@nobody - I'm doing well, thanks.
@espi - Being in a different time zone definitely adds difficulty so just try and do your best, give reads, and be reasonably active. In the end that's all we can really ask for from players. I know in a lot of newbie mini games it really suffers from 2-3 lurkers/replacements who hold back the game so I'd love to be able to avoid that.
As far as active lurking goes - that's definitely something to watch out for. Posting without direction and cluttering the thread doesn't accomplish anything useful for town. I don't think it's 100% reliable though, although I guess none of the other 'common tells' such as being wishy-washy, apologizing/avoiding confrontation, sheeping etc. are.
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On May 04 2013 12:44 nobodywonder wrote: just voted a lurker for now, see how Sugarfluff responds Can you explain this post - I'm confused what you mean since you haven't voted? Also for the future, I think avoiding 1-liners is best because they take up a lot of space and clutter filters.
@vayne - Most definitely, which is why i used the ' ' marks around common tells. When they become common they don't carry as much weight anymore because scum are very aware of them and can purposely use or not use them. Having said that, I think it's still worth looking at because they all boil down to actions that aren't in the best interest of town. Town never wants to clutter, to ramble without pressuring, or to lack purpose. Town doesn't want to avoid conflicts; they want to create them to get better reads and opinions on people and flush out scum. So they have some use but they aren't a silver bullet is my point.
I disagree with your first point - the the lynch definitely isn't down to "pure guess" by any means. It's up to town to look under rocks and dig up solid leads in order to make a solid lynch choice. Don't downplay the power of logic and pressure to reveal scum.
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@sugarfluff - I don't like your posting very much so far. I understand the votes on you were a random bandwagon to try and prompt activity and what's come forth hasn't seemed very useful. I don't see you doing any hunting right now.
What bothers me is that you've taken a very non-committal stance. "I would vote for this guy, this other guy seems suspicious, but I don't know what to think really" is how I would paraphrase your attitude. I feel that vayne has taken some heat (rightfully so) for poorly worded statements regarding "not enough information" and you've sidled onto others (me and jampi specifically) who brought it up first. You're sheeping right now, and that's what scum does.
On May 04 2013 17:23 Sugarfluff wrote: For me it's the attitude towards not lynching on the first day. I do think we should lynch, cause as I said I think mafia can use the extra time more, as well as the serial killer. This is my first game though so I'm not sure if not lynching on day 1 is a common strategy, if so I'd love to hear the reasons behind it. As far as not lynching goes - it's absolutely terrible and town should never entertain this idea. End of story, no need to discuss something useless like this or hear reasons. I dislike how you're trying to imply uncertainty in your decisions and what you say.
On May 04 2013 17:55 Sugarfluff wrote: But I was gonna chalk that up to you wanting to get the ball rolling, which I suppose is working, so good job on that. When jampi pressures you to explain your reads more you give another non-confrontational/non-commital response to him here. If vayne's play has stuck out to you the most, where is your vote?
Who are your top scum reads right now? Is it still vayne? Right now you are one of mine and I'm going to vote you as such.
@shirokami; @flowcaster - You guys are lurking WAY too much. This is completely unacceptable considering you have pledged your time to the game. If this keeps up you are going to force a lurker lynch. We cannot play when you guys aren't contributing.
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I think it is important for us to revisit the previously discussed lurker-lynch policy, specifically since we are getting down to the deadline and we have a major lurker in flowcaster. I didn't bring it up for no reason; I'm serious and think there is a reason town benefits from the policy and there was general consensus. If we mention it and don't follow through on voting lurkers then we are giving anyone a free pass to lurk for the game.
@nobodywonder, spicydinosaur, jarjardrinks, targe, shirokami - I'd like to hear your thoughts on this because you all have specifically agreed with the policy.
I'm keeping my vote on sugarfluff for now because he has read scummy to me so far but the fact that flowcaster has lurked so much is definitely bad. I'm willing to switch my vote to enforce the lurker lynch policy closer to the deadline if flowcaster doesn't drop some serious content.
@shiro - Glad to see you're posting content now. I understand you'd like more content from me; right back at you. I noticed you've jumped onto a player who has already received heat after joining late. Seems like an easy way to sheep a D1 vote, would you not agree?
@vayne
On May 06 2013 05:05 VayneAuthority wrote:Also his push for lynching lurkers is something mafia tend to do early to gain an early foothold and town usually goes along with it, a common rookie mistake. I would rather just no lynch this day as theres almost nothing to go off of, but if I have to vote for now its going to be him I strongly disagree with you here. There's a reason to pressure lurkers - it's to get them to talk. If they don't talk you don't get any information from them and you can't play the game. You're assuming that all lurkers are town here and that just doesn't follow. Town gains nothing from lurking. Your stance here doesn't make sense; the way you see it if scum lurks they are given a free pass for the game. And again, please don't bring up a no-lynch. It's an utter waste of time D1.
@sugarfluff
On May 05 2013 16:46 Sugarfluff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 11:09 calgar wrote:On May 04 2013 17:23 Sugarfluff wrote: For me it's the attitude towards not lynching on the first day. I do think we should lynch, cause as I said I think mafia can use the extra time more, as well as the serial killer. This is my first game though so I'm not sure if not lynching on day 1 is a common strategy, if so I'd love to hear the reasons behind it. As far as not lynching goes - it's absolutely terrible and town should never entertain this idea. End of story, no need to discuss something useless like this or hear reasons. I dislike how you're trying to imply uncertainty in your decisions and what you say. I get you logic except this part. I specifically stated that I didn't know if it was useless. What if it wasn't useless, should I not learn it? And you should always get reasons for everything. Which is why Vaynes vote for Targe is just another suspicious move on his part, however right it may be the logic needs to be there and the reasons need to be known. Anyway, all of JarJarDrinks posts so far have been concerning policy lynching. No attempts at anything else, and if he really felt so strongly about the policy he would have voted, not spent all his posts discussing whether or not we should. My vote is for him. I'm still not impressed with your posting sugarfluff. I understand you may or may not have known but that kind of tactic is something mafia like to do in order to be less threatening and noticed. I'd like to see you be more committed in taking a stand and outlining your reads. You haven't really built a case on anyone - why is that? You've outlined a small amount jarjar - is he really your top scumread right now? What do you think about shirokami lurking hard and then popping in?
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On May 06 2013 06:41 nobodywonder wrote: @calgar, what do you think of the Jarjar lynch? who are your top reads other than sugarfluff? I'll be able to type something longer before lynch but very quickly: it's hard to make any decision on jarjar because he's posted very little but I don't really like it because I read him as town. I think he has better logic and critical points than other people in the thread. I think vayne has said some really scummy stuff and been scummy as hell in general continuing to bring up no-lynch. I would rather lynch vayne or sugar over jarjar as of now.
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Alright guys, who is actually around between now and lynch? I think it's the middle of the night for shiro, targ, and casey since they are in Europe so they won't be around. flowcaster is MIA as is spicydinosaur, although he's pledged to return by the deadline.
@jrkirby - who would you lynch right now instead of jarjar since you think he is town? Can we potentially swing the vote here? I'd say sugar or vayne over jarjar so we seem to disagree there since you say nobody?
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On May 06 2013 09:42 jrkirby wrote: I would say swing the vote, but jarjar already has 5 votes and there aren't 5 active guys here. And the next voted guy is targe, who I have a null read on. Mehh, I think everyone should try to be around for the lynch times. It can only ever help. I'll keep an eye to see if anyone else jumps in before 10 and something crazy happens.
Since you appear to be leaving us as of now in about an hour jarjar, can you give us any reads that you haven't mentioned or insights?
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I'm also extremely hesitant because I think several other people are scummier than targe. He's also said that he's left the thread which makes him an easy target to flip the lynch to when he can't defend himself.
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On May 06 2013 10:40 JarJarDrinks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 10:37 calgar wrote: I'm also extremely hesitant because I think several other people are scummier than targe. Do you think I'm scummier then him though? That's really all that matters right now. Well it really depends on the timing for me. Before you started defending yourself I probably would have said you were both lower on my radar but you more than him. Now that you've done some explaining, I'd say him, but the fact that this has turned into a "switch to the guy who has said goodnight" instead of someone like vayne makes me much more reluctant to switch.
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@hydra - Welcome to the game & nice to see you posting some analysis. I'm curious to know your thoughts on sugarfluff and vayne as well?
@jampi - I see you asking a lot of questions of other people but I'm not as clear on your reads. You've said there are a lot of scummy people running around so who's bugging you the most?
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@sugarfluff - Is there a reason you've ignored my previous questions addressed to you? This makes me feel like you aren't reading what I'm saying.
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@spicydinosaur - Here are some of my thoughts as asked for. I've liked some of your latest posts and I read you as potentially town right now.
@shirokami - I think shiro has flown under the radar for way too long now and a couple people have noticed but I'd like to draw more attention to his play. He stalled for a long time at the beginning of the game and promised a big analysis, and a very small post was what resulted:
On May 06 2013 03:53 shirokami wrote: Im voting vayne for obvious scumslip: THERE ARE NO FRICKIN REASON TO NOT TELL YOU WHY SOMEONE IS SCUM IN A THREAD-ONLY GAME. It only looks bad and I think the reason in his vote against targe was because he has no reason. My logs are saying that targe is not scummy so thats it. I bet all my monnies that vayne flips scum.
Also about people voting JarJar, I like how he roasted jampidampi but they are both null for me right now, but they are definitely not scumbuddies, because only pro-scum even DARE do that kind of moves and this is not a pro-game. scum don't like attention.
Oh and people who sheep someone, Please say why. If you dont say why, thats useless and makes you look like a woolly babylonian.
@Calgar
Dude. you started the game with good discussion about LaL, but please contribute more, I want to see you post, because your filter is not fun.
@everyone
Feel free to ask anything. Really, this is all you have to say after you claim loving to go through filters and implying you're going to do a ton of analysis? You've made the most one-liners by far and have only given one read for the entire game, which was on vayne being scummy. I think you're a contender for having contributed the least as far as content goes and I don't like that you've gone back to very short, vague, contentless posts since your 'big analysis'.
Where are your reads? When have scum hunted? It doesn't seem like you're contributing at all to the thread.
@targe - You had good logic D1 in advising against the policy lynch and hydra has been much more active than the last guy. I'm looking forward to seeing your promised response and I'll sheep vayne in saying that it is scummy that you mention jamp being town and regretting the lynch.
@sugarfluff - I guess it's fair to say I've tunneled you but you really haven't given me any reason to stop. Part of the reason I have been is to prompt you to talk more. Instead you've ignored my questions to date and that adds to my feeling of unease about you.
I also really dislike your case for some of the same reasons spicydinosaur does. It seems like you've made a lot of stretches and built it on poor premises. You've factored prominently a connection (or lack therof) between me and kirby, but I fail to see the relevance here. You mention that we haven't really interacted, but naturally I'm not going to be able to interact with everyone substantially or at all in the first few days. I haven't really had much to say to several other players such as spicy and shirokami - why no case built between us then? Even if we were both mafia, we might decide to interact a whole lot.
You've imagined this master plan that we have where we plan when to interact and that just doesn't make any sense to me - you can build a 'case' on anyone based on this strategy.
So yeah, give me a reason to back off and I will. Until then I really don't like your play at all, and I'm surprised more people haven't been on your case for it. Are you ever going to respond to my questions?
@nobody - You've been quite active and shown good logic so far. I'm feeling town on you although I didn't like your "fuck bad lynch" and "i'm lost now" posts as a reaction to the lynch. They seemed overly emotional/a little fake but whatever, maybe that's just me.
@casey - I'll agree that he looks bad now. I think his posting started very weak but he seems to be improving some and making more of an effort to push his reads. I have a null read and I'm very hesitant here because in my last game there was a very similar player who I (as town) tried to push as a lynch candidate most of the game, and he ended up town. While I realize that past games have no direct relevance, I see a lot of similarities in play so that's how I'm personally inclined to lean now. I'm on the fence between bad towny play and scummy play. Definitely would like to see him explain his thoughts more thoroughly push reads.
I can see either targe or casey being scum but I have my doubts as to whether they both are. vayne mentions about a red herring and I agree with him.
On May 08 2013 01:59 VayneAuthority wrote: Jampi suspected both Targe and Espi.casey before he died, so we have to wonder if this a red herring or are these 2 really mafia? it's hard to tell. Targe was on the Jarjar lynch since the beginning, while espi jumped to it last second. This could be Targe being a sneaky mafia and carefully leading a wrong lynch, or it simply could be a townie that got a wrong read. I feel that there is potential for the night kill victim's reads to be used to help pave the wave for a mislynch. Another reason that I have my doubts about them both being scum is that my potential scum team right now is looking like sugarfluff, shirokami, and one other.
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On May 08 2013 05:12 Sugarfluff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 01:42 jampidampi wrote:On May 07 2013 01:25 Sugarfluff wrote:On May 06 2013 22:37 jampidampi wrote:Sugarfluff, is there any non-jrkirby related reason that Calgar is scum? You really shouldn't associate before the flip. On May 06 2013 22:06 VayneAuthority wrote: Keep in mind this is night one and not day 2, its pretty much the same thing as day one. The real game starts after PR roles gain info and people get killed. Does this mean we won't your reasons for voting Targe until day two? I realize we will have more information when day 2 begins and those with roles have gathered some info but I thought we could begin early. Even if kirby isn't mafia Calgar seemed to pick his suspicions consciously and I definitely find that suspicious on its own. AllHailHydra seems like a good poster and I can't wait to study his reasoning's, I have to go now but looking forward to the game picking up. Sorry, my post was a little unclear, the second part was at Vayne. I'd like to hear more about your suspicions on Calgar, how are his suspicions picked consciously? How does that make him scum? Picked consciously as in he was very anti lurking/bad content posts and he brings that up but completely skips jrkirbys, whos big post doesn't come until later at which point Calgars reaction is nothing more than asking a short question to this lurker who up until that post has done nothing (I had not done much, but kirbys filter at that point is freakishly devoid of actual content). As far as I'm concerned, shirokami's filter is the one that is frekishly devoid of actual content right now. Why aren't you more concerned about him as a lurker than jrkirby? shiro has given vague excuses and one read all game, way less than kirby has done. If I had briefly mentioned kirby initially instead of shiro, would you be suspicious of us two instead? As far as me "completely skip"ing kirby, you're just as guilty of completely skipping over casey and shiro.
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On May 08 2013 10:22 shirokami wrote: Im going to catch up in 12 hours or so. I still want to lynch vayne tho. Really shiro?! Are you us kidding here? You started the game saying you wouldn't be able to post temporarily but promised you would provide some solid analysis when you got back to your computer. What you produce is null-reads on two? people and one very short scumread on vayne. All I see is a pattern of stall tactics promising future content and no delivery.
On May 04 2013 21:25 shirokami wrote: Yo yo.
So about the LAL. It's good for the reason that there are zero reasons to lurk in a thread-only game.
Also I will only have my phone until tomorrow, so my posts today may lack some. Zero reasons to lurk in a thread-only game you say, so why exactly are you lurking? For now you've earned my vote for the aforementioned reasons.
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@hydra
On May 08 2013 19:12 AllHailHydraGod wrote:Just wanted to post my thoughts on Calgar after reading his filter. but then I saw this. Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 11:49 nobodywonder wrote: btw i really applaud the choice of cereals
trix is very evil and gives diarrhea if you eat too fast or too much. good gf choice
wheaties are just stronk and good 3p killer
it may have been funnier with the cereal mascots considering they are so schizophenic, coco puffs bird, tony the tiger, cookie crisp wolf.
/spam so bored, post town, post........... Calgar, seems unaffected by me having a townread on some people and him not being among them. I also don't like how he chose to steer discussion towards a lurker lynch policy so early on (first post of the game). I feel like as a townie you'd want to see how people introduce themselves and what they choose to start talking about because that gives more info than if they agree on policy lynching lurkers or not. I feel like he shut a very important opportunity for reading players by doing that so early and practically inviting scum to post about a rather easy topic, or better yet ask others to post about it to seem implicated, like nobodywonders did Spicy for example. As far as I know, a lurker lynch policy is a common place to begin D1 discussion. I don't really see how you could read that one way or another as a result. It quickly transitions from the 'hi i'm xx, not much to talk about..." to something of substance, which can only be a good thing.
Let me get this straight - you're suggesting I stifled discussion by suggesting a topic of conversation? How is that possible because it seems to be a direct contradiction. I see it as giving people something to talk about and voice their opinion on. At the very least it shows that someone either ignores the topic if they don't reply to it. If they do, you get their opinions and more posting as a result. I don't see how I'm "practically inviting" active lurking, either, and even if it were to occur then they could be called out for doing so. As in something of substance to be analyzed. I think you're demonstrating poor logic here.
So upon reading his filter I think a Calgar, nobodywonders, Targe scumteam is possible, meaning that he might be satisfied with my initial attempt at a read of a pool of townie looking players because his two scumbuddies are in that pool. And I've said that it's a superficial read so I figure maybe that's why he doesn't ask me anything about it. You've just pulled a 'sugarfluff' here and concocted a theory about my true motivations without basing it on anything. You're putting words in my mouth here. I think your case is a weak read with questionable logic because of the aforementioned reasons so I don't really have anything to further ask about.
@sugarfluffOn May 08 2013 19:56 Sugarfluff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:37 calgar wrote:On May 08 2013 05:12 Sugarfluff wrote:On May 07 2013 01:42 jampidampi wrote:On May 07 2013 01:25 Sugarfluff wrote:On May 06 2013 22:37 jampidampi wrote:Sugarfluff, is there any non-jrkirby related reason that Calgar is scum? You really shouldn't associate before the flip. On May 06 2013 22:06 VayneAuthority wrote: Keep in mind this is night one and not day 2, its pretty much the same thing as day one. The real game starts after PR roles gain info and people get killed. Does this mean we won't your reasons for voting Targe until day two? I realize we will have more information when day 2 begins and those with roles have gathered some info but I thought we could begin early. Even if kirby isn't mafia Calgar seemed to pick his suspicions consciously and I definitely find that suspicious on its own. AllHailHydra seems like a good poster and I can't wait to study his reasoning's, I have to go now but looking forward to the game picking up. Sorry, my post was a little unclear, the second part was at Vayne. I'd like to hear more about your suspicions on Calgar, how are his suspicions picked consciously? How does that make him scum? Picked consciously as in he was very anti lurking/bad content posts and he brings that up but completely skips jrkirbys, whos big post doesn't come until later at which point Calgars reaction is nothing more than asking a short question to this lurker who up until that post has done nothing (I had not done much, but kirbys filter at that point is freakishly devoid of actual content). As far as I'm concerned, shirokami's filter is the one that is frekishly devoid of actual content right now. Why aren't you more concerned about him as a lurker than jrkirby? shiro has given vague excuses and one read all game, way less than kirby has done. If I had briefly mentioned kirby initially instead of shiro, would you be suspicious of us two instead? As far as me "completely skip"ing kirby, you're just as guilty of completely skipping over casey and shiro. Casey hasn't been that bad, although I don't have townread on him either. Shiros filter is indeed a very sad thing, and his continued delays are getting more and more suspicious. But people were already pointing out his lurking and voicing suspicions about it. I wanted to hear kirby speak up, and I wanted to see how you'd react. Quite frankly I thought you reacted poorly, but reading through my posts I realized that I never outright asked you, what do you think of kirby? You still have not given an opinion on him. Well kirby has been gone for basically 2 days now so he's basically lurking as hard as shiro is, except he was more useful before and had a decent post speculating on a team. I think I read town because I understand how he was bothered by the late bandwagon switch. Switching to no lynch was a weird way to go about it but I think the meta from their previous games may have affected his views in a way which looks odd to us. Having said that, I don't really understand why he has disappeared for so long and I don't really see scum disappearing for 2 straight days, though who knows with WIFOM and all. So I'll say slight town but very confused as to why he has vanished.
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On May 09 2013 07:04 AllHailHydraGod wrote:@calgar It might be just me but I don't consider talking about lurker lynch policy useful at all. If I was mafia I'd be glad to have something like this to talk about because there's no way I'd give myself away, blending in is just too easy. So I'm not exactly sure why you think that you needed to force discussion on such a topic, it looks like you honestly think that it helps town so either you're townie who just doesn't think like me or you're scum. Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:35 calgar wrote: Let me get this straight - you're suggesting I stifled discussion by suggesting a topic of conversation? How is that possible because it seems to be a direct contradiction. I see it as giving people something to talk about and voice their opinion on. At the very least it shows that someone either ignores the topic if they don't reply to it.
If someone ignores the topic or not what does that tell you about them? I just don't see any way how you could interpret any reaction or input on the matter with regard to alignment, so in my view it's a surrogate for any real discussion. Even the lack of a clear theme for discussion would've been better than this one, because it would've kept scum (and I'm not implying you're not scum, on a contrary) guessing about what to talk about, because not talking about anything would make them look bad. If you did want to start something a RVS for example would've been way better. I honestly think it can help. The way it helps though is if everyone agrees and then backs it up which didn't happen here. So in this case I'll agree with you that it was useless, but I think it has potential if used correctly. We've got a lot of lurkers running around and because it's clear they aren't going to be lynched there's no reason to ever stop. That's what its supposed to do, and how it can help town, by stopping play like kirby disappearing for 2 days and shiro apparently trolling like this.
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On May 09 2013 10:20 VayneAuthority wrote: why are you voting for random meaningless things when the lynch is between you and Targe? you aren't playing to win, kinda just fucking around. Agreed. Why is this half-assed analysis 30 minutes before the lynch, when you've done nothing in the last 48 hours, supposed to change our minds in any way?
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Well it sucks to see shiro flip town because he was so scummy with the stall tactics and refusal to give reads. Shame to have a townie sabotaging and not trying to win. I think it's important to not give up yet because we still have a chance to win here if the MIAs return / if we get a solid lynch with reads.
@hydra You jumped in as the replacement with some good reads and analysis. Since then you've been much less active. You've been suspicious of spicy and targe previously - what are your current reads?
@spicy I'd like to hear your thoughts as well as hydra's before N2 ends because I've liked your play more than most of the other players so far. You've pointed at casey and targe as scummy - do you still feel the same?
@sugar, vayne, targe I'm not really sure who to shake my stick at now between the three of you. Shiro seemed very certain that vayne was scum, although we should probably take that with a grain of salt due to the rest of his play. Was he going somewhere or is this just a red herring? It doesn't seem like sugarfluff has done much of any scum-hunting. targe has been summarized by several players so far. I'm leaning towards lynching one of these guys right now.
@nobody, jrkirby Why did you sign up if you weren't going to play?
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@spicy Alright, good job on the targe hunch spicy. I'm not entirely sure you're dead next but there's probably a good chance. Time to turn things around while we still can.
@vayne I've reread vayne's filter and changed my mind. I don't think he's played a very good game and he's said a lot of things that can be individually considered scummy, like his vague active lurking/'stalling for time' posts to start the game:
On May 04 2013 12:38 VayneAuthority wrote: this will be rough considering it is a no clue game. First day of lynching is just purely a guess at this point, ill probably get the ball rolling later once I see some more posts and
On May 04 2013 14:09 VayneAuthority wrote: Not enough information yet to know whether I want to lynch lurkers or not. I need at least a post from everyone first, as well as some votes to come in. then we'll see Then there was his insistence on withholding information (you realize when you don't share reads thats 3 mafia you're denying and 8 other towns... 8 seems more important 3...) but that's been mentioned a lot already. There is also the continued mention of a no-lynch and that has been discussed already as well. The no-lynch seems to come from his past experiences and he feels that it would genuinely help town.
So even though there are all these individuals things I don't like about his play, I fail to see an overall scummy motivation in his actions as a whole. He made the targe case a while ago and was pushing his read there. I don't really see why scum would pressure targe back then so I can't really imagine that he would be making that case so early if he weren't town. This kind of clears him in my eyes for now. casey also seems to have tried to build a case on you so this can further confirm you I think.
my scum team Regarding my scum team - I previously had sugarfluff, shirokami, and one other (likely casey or targe I said). I really thought shiro was going to flip red because he was so scummy, which made me feel like a targe + casey team was unlikely because shiro was higher on the priority list and the team was full. Now than he flipped as terribletown I think casey and targe make a lot more sense. I'll revise my scumteam now to targe, sugarfluff, and casey.
casey and targe interaction I've thought casey has had bad posting but seemed to be making a genuine effort at some point. I was waiting for him to improve and he just hasn't and the clocks struck midnight for me. The newbiness and language make it tougher to interpret his true motives and I've probably given him the benefit of the doubt too long as a result. I do think it's striking that they fail to give opinions on each other.
What bothers me is similar to what spicy has brought - promising to give reads and then just never delivering. Its excuse after excuse similar to shirokami, just no useful contributions.
He seems to be pointing the finger at sugarfluff now - maybe he's doing this so sugar looks better when casey flips red?
sugarfluff I've been on him a lot of the game and he hasn't really posted anything substantive in a long time. It feels like he's doing the bare minimum to get by to the next day without attracting attention. See my filter for previous reasoning as well. Another thing I didn't like is how he casually voted for shiro after things were piling up. He essentially ignored shiro in the early game and has little interaction with targe as well (only 1 brief mention) before voting shiro over targe. I get the feeling he may have piled on to save targe and therefore doesn't have any town reasoning to support his actions.
roleblocker? Also, if we can trust shiro saying he was roleblocked then this would suggest there is a roleblocker amongst the remaining players? I'm not really sure if we can use this information to our benefit since it may not be true.
In conclusion, I'd like to lynch casey and sugarfluff. I suppose the order doesn't matter much if we're right but I'll put my vote on casey for now. Also, I am VT.
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On May 10 2013 11:23 VayneAuthority wrote: Im leaning towards lynching sugarfluff due to him and espi.casey being the common denominator in both bad lynches and something feels off about him going through his filler. Is there any reason you're leaning towards sugarfluff over casey right now?
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On May 11 2013 23:46 VayneAuthority wrote: Before I can even talk about analysis we need Espi.casey and Sugarfluff to roleclaim. the level of inactivity in this game was pretty absurd, its like people thought the game is over after the first day lol. I dont understand what happened to half the players I don't know what to say other than maybe they've given up and/or don't care anymore?
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Nice job nailing the second scum guys. I think we've managed to turn this one around and now we just need to see it out to the finish.
@vayne
On May 12 2013 12:25 VayneAuthority wrote:when you get back let me know what you think of this post Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 03:54 Targe wrote: Analysis time,
jrkirby:
Your posts are kind of meh, you have your 'Casey, shirokami, nobody' post which is ok, but I can't see how you put shirokami as scum, he's certainly not got the best filter but he isn't giving of major mafia vibes. The entire idea of this post seems to be that you think they are distancing themselves from each other yet you seem to ignore the possibility that they are actually three separate players, not a team.
All your other posts are very short, generally 1 or 2 liners, not good. You're coming off as one of the more scummy ones here.
nobodywonder:
Your filter is better, you post actively and aren't afraid to question people and put forward arguments, although you did get a little erratic at times.
Not much more to say, I have a null read on you at the moment.
VayneAuthority:
Well, you're getting a lot of heat for doing shit like not explaining reasons and going for a no lynch, which was just a bad idea. Your post history isn't the best but I think you're just some strange town that does things his own way, I I'll hold out until day 2 when you may give us some information.
Seriously, you need to speak up.
shiromaki:
man, you lurked way to much d1, when you came in you started some talking which is good but it still wasn't really close to what I was expecting to hear, still holding judgement but at the moment you just look like some scummy town.
Sugarfluff:
Your filter is really not very good, you really don't have many posts at all, the majority of them were concerning Vayne, which is a common topic and a relatively easy way of getting out of lurking without posting too much original content. Your entire post concerning Calgar and kirby relies on them being scumbuddies, what read do you have on them as individuals?
SpicyDinosaur:
You posted some bland stuff at the beginning about lurkers, like quite a few of us, then you focus on me because I vote Jarjar when trying to get him to post and that is about the basis of your argument. More stuff on vayne, blah blah, then we get to your replies to Hydra's post, Hydra to me had one of the best analysis posts yet and you slam it, saying it's off the rails completely, he put some excellent points into his analysis of you and I agree with him, you come off as scummy under analysis.
I'll do some more of you guys when I get the chance, I only have a short time in which I can write lengthier posts like this as I'm relatively busy. Maybe he didnt realize what this would look like at this point in the game? look at the two people missing off this list... That's an interesting suggestion vayne, but there's actually 5 players missing off the list. I'm not really sure why he included the people to analyze that he did while leaving out me, casey, hydra, jarjar (then dead), and jampi (then alive but set to be lynched). I don't think it's very good evidence, though, or strongly indicative of who his scum buddies are.
As scum he knows his posts are going to be analyzed if/when he dies so what he writes he knows will be examined and cross-examined. This ends up in a WIFOM situation where you can run in endless circles. Maybe he didn't feel comfortable giving analysis on any other scum member, but maybe he decided to give analysis on one but not both.
Would scum feel more comfortable writing a post that ignores their buddies knowing it might be read when they die, or mentioning them all and potentially attracting attention to them, or mentioning only 1 other? Who's to say really? I don't really know, but I certainly don't think this is a reason to not lynch sugarfluff.
I think his read on sugar is interesting as well - noncommital, vaguely critical, lacking mention/accusation of being scummy, and then a general question to 'promote' discussion. It's the kind of thing scum can point back to and say "look, I was on his case the whole time" if their buddy flips red. He could use that to try and clear himself of scummyness later on.
the last scum In regards to sugarfluff, specifically, I find his recent post scummy. I've included some analysis with previous quotes from his filter spliced in where relevant.
On May 12 2013 08:24 Sugarfluff wrote: So yea, I lost interested in the game after the modkills and everything. I apologize, should not have just gone inactive like that. Certainly plausible but a good excuse to give for your mega-lurking. I find that interesting considering what you said earlier:
On May 07 2013 01:25 Sugarfluff wrote: AllHailHydra seems like a good poster and I can't wait to study his reasoning's, I have to go now but looking forward to the game picking up. Despite what you say about looking forward here, you go on to be a key reason activity decreases. I think one reason you might have felt the need to lurk is that your "big case" you tried to push on me and jrkirby didn't go anywhere. Since no one bought into it, if you kept pushing them it would be obvious you were fabricating a case, and if you backed up and changed reads then you would look scummy as well for being unsure/noncommittal/trying to spread suspicion everywhere.
On the subject of role-claiming, I'm vanilla town. Out of the remaining players not many could be town. No one seems to be disputing Spicy being the one that shot Targe, so that pretty much makes him town. Which means out of Casey, Calgar and Vayne only one can be town.
So the lynches. Calgar and Casey (and me) voted for Shirokami and got him lynched, while Vayne was set on Targe (as he had been from the beginning). Calgar voted for me day 1, Vayne voted for Targe. And me and Casey voted for JarJar.
Not very useful on their own actually, Vayne was the only one on the correct guy. I still stand by the votes I cast, I thought Jarjar was suspicious and Shirokami was a worthwhile lynch anyhow. I do believe Vayne is town at this point, which means that Calgar and Casey are scum. It comes down to getting a town read on Vayne more than anything really. I'll be voting Casey as such. No point in putting a vote on Calgar that won't get through, better to get the few remaining town votes together on a lynch. It seems useful to me on their own, actually. I think it's useful because to me, the difference is that you poorly justified your decision to lynch shirokami and have hidden your reads throughout the game. In your initial batch of posts which you have admitted wasn't very good, you put up a vague accusation on vayne.
You then make one of your only posts with legitimate content (spoilered for reference), the one about me and jrkirby having a plan where he would lurk at the beggining, I would post but ignore him, and somehow because I commented on other lurkers but not him we're a scumteam? + Show Spoiler +On May 06 2013 20:26 Sugarfluff wrote:Allright, so I went through the thread again and I'm gonna give my impressions of people I think are scum and others. So far my scumradar shows kirby and calgar as scumbuddies. Kirby does very little in the beginning, suspiciously so if you ask me. This doesn't say much, however, since most posts at the very beginning are short and without a lot of content. But he doesn't try and start any discussions and gives short answers. He does make a good post a bit later on were he points his suspicions on nobodywonder, eSpi.Casey, and shirokami. Show nested quote +Lucky for them, they so far have no votes on the entire team. Scum will attempt to distance themselves from each other, but will hate to risk one of them dying on the first day. Now I found this bit interesting, because I do believe that mafia could play like that, distancing themselves that is, but also if kirby does believe that wouldn't he play mafia that way? As it happens he and Calgar pretty much avoided each other completely in the beginning, not so weird for kirby since he barely did anything but it is weird for Calgar. Calgar gave his opinion on plenty of people, including lurkers, yet passed over kirby. Instead he focused on me. Which is fine, I don't think my first day posting was very good. But I also think his reaction was a little strong. So these two ignoring each other I found strange. They did have a conversation towards the end that gives me even more doubt. They both want JarJar off and both think Targe seems more suspicious, but both in fact make no actual attempt to save him, since as mafia they'd know he was town(or SK). The situation was pretty grim for JarJar so in theory if they are scumbuddies one could have voted for JarJar and he would certainly still have gotten lynched, but that is assuming they were worried enough about such suspicions. On the subject of Targe, my read on this guy isn't very good. He certainly doesn't seem that towny right now, short posts, not a lot of original content. I'd really like to hear Vaynes read on him now, if he has now deemed it acceptable for whatever reason. Vayne is definitely acting suspiciously, but he is quite active and not afraid answering questions (except for the "I'm not gonna tell yet" incident.) At this point I'd say he's more SK than town, and more town than mafia. But nothing conclusive. JampiDampi is town, according to me. Probably the person who has done most to get discussions going, and asking for more research material (vaynes previous games). I feel fairly confident in my read of Jampi being town. Nobodywonder doesn't seem quite town to me, but I feel kirby and Calgar are much stronger suspects. And nobody does ask some questions and try for some discussion. If it would turn out that kirby/calgar can't be mafia nobody would probably be next on my list. As it stands kirbys suspicion (as I believe he is mafia) would make me think nobody is town for now. Casey and shirokami haven't done that much, about the same as me until now I feel, although their posts have been slightly better. I'd like to see more from both of them soon. As it is I really don't know who kirby an calgar's third man would be, anyone got any ideas? Think I'm totally off? Let's make the most of the wrong lynch right now so we are well prepared for day 2. I've already expressed my concern about the faulty logic and jumping to conclusions based off of a purely by chance lack of interaction early in the thread that you use with this case.
Another thing is the fact that he barely ever mentions people he votes for specifically shirokami and casey. His first mention is quite brief:
On May 06 2013 20:26 Sugarfluff wrote: Casey and shirokami haven't done that much, about the same as me until now I feel, although their posts have been slightly better. I'd like to see more from both of them soon.
He doesn't give another opinion on either until directly prompted when I bring them up to him as a counter-argument to point out he's been ignoring them.
On May 08 2013 19:56 Sugarfluff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:37 calgar wrote:On May 08 2013 05:12 Sugarfluff wrote:On May 07 2013 01:42 jampidampi wrote:On May 07 2013 01:25 Sugarfluff wrote:On May 06 2013 22:37 jampidampi wrote:Sugarfluff, is there any non-jrkirby related reason that Calgar is scum? You really shouldn't associate before the flip. On May 06 2013 22:06 VayneAuthority wrote: Keep in mind this is night one and not day 2, its pretty much the same thing as day one. The real game starts after PR roles gain info and people get killed. Does this mean we won't your reasons for voting Targe until day two? I realize we will have more information when day 2 begins and those with roles have gathered some info but I thought we could begin early. Even if kirby isn't mafia Calgar seemed to pick his suspicions consciously and I definitely find that suspicious on its own. AllHailHydra seems like a good poster and I can't wait to study his reasoning's, I have to go now but looking forward to the game picking up. Sorry, my post was a little unclear, the second part was at Vayne. I'd like to hear more about your suspicions on Calgar, how are his suspicions picked consciously? How does that make him scum? Picked consciously as in he was very anti lurking/bad content posts and he brings that up but completely skips jrkirbys, whos big post doesn't come until later at which point Calgars reaction is nothing more than asking a short question to this lurker who up until that post has done nothing (I had not done much, but kirbys filter at that point is freakishly devoid of actual content). As far as I'm concerned, shirokami's filter is the one that is frekishly devoid of actual content right now. Why aren't you more concerned about him as a lurker than jrkirby? shiro has given vague excuses and one read all game, way less than kirby has done. If I had briefly mentioned kirby initially instead of shiro, would you be suspicious of us two instead? As far as me "completely skip"ing kirby, you're just as guilty of completely skipping over casey and shiro. Casey hasn't been that bad, although I don't have townread on him either. Shiros filter is indeed a very sad thing, and his continued delays are getting more and more suspicious. But people were already pointing out his lurking and voicing suspicions about it. I wanted to hear kirby speak up, and I wanted to see how you'd react. Quite frankly I thought you reacted poorly, but reading through my posts I realized that I never outright asked you, what do you think of kirby? You still have not given an opinion on him.
I found his two posts before lynching shirokami to be disturbing.
On May 09 2013 08:17 Sugarfluff wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:35 calgar wrote: Well kirby has been gone for basically 2 days now so he's basically lurking as hard as shiro is, except he was more useful before and had a decent post speculating on a team. I think I read town because I understand how he was bothered by the late bandwagon switch. Switching to no lynch was a weird way to go about it but I think the meta from their previous games may have affected his views in a way which looks odd to us. Having said that, I don't really understand why he has disappeared for so long and I don't really see scum disappearing for 2 straight days, though who knows with WIFOM and all. So I'll say slight town but very confused as to why he has vanished.
All right, fair enough. As of this moment we have a lot of people failing to contribute; shirokami keeps delaying, kirby has been missing a long time, and nobody has been gone pretty much just as long. Obviously some of these lurkers are town, which makes lynching a lurker not that pretty of a prospect, unless other reasons are brought up for voting them. Hope any or all of you guys do post before the day ends. and
On May 09 2013 09:55 Sugarfluff wrote: I'll put my vote on shirokami, I am more confident in his scummy-ness than Targes and at this rate kirby is bound to be modkilled when he doesn't vote. It was definitely troubling that shiro kept delaying. You admit that some of them are obviously town and throw in a "hope you guys post more!" right before you disappear for DAYS! You admit that they might be town but then you're willing to vote him because you're more confident of his scummyness, even though you barely mention him in the thread and don't analyze him at all? What?! I see no towny play here, no initiative, no desire to scumhunt or push your reads. You pop in, throw your vote on the guy who has a lot of votes, and leave.
The other, crazier, theory would be Vayne sitting as the mafia mastermind, plotting around our silly first game antics. I do think he is the best player here. Even so it'd be pretty impressive if he, you know, picked a fellow mafia day 1 (Targe) voted for him but gave no reason. It'd be a risk but we were stumbling about at the time and Vayne is an active fellow, he could probably have rectified the situation if it came to that. He keeps pushing the issue while not overriding any other more popular lynches, until eventually Targe is shot and we have a renewed trust for Vayne. The two modkills would be like an incredibly lucky break for him though, not one that could have been calculated and without them Targe would have been a huge sacrifice. Although as a mafia, who now has everyone's trust he could turn to the remaining town without much suspicion. He'd have to build a pretty convincing argument for Spicy so I'm the better target. I wonder...
No matter what happens now I am definitely interested in seeing who turns scum. What are you trying to accomplish with this paragraph? It seems that literally you are trying to suggest vayne may be the last scum, even though you just accused me (with no reasoning, no less). Everyone considers vayne to be solidly town so you have to qualify your suspicion with weakening phrases like "crazy", "i wonder..". I don't think you're going to be able to mislynch him here by making up this farfetched theory about how he is really a mastermind puppeteer running circles around everyone with flawless play.
@spicy Since you're likely dead soon make sure to leave us all of your final reads.
That took a very long time to write so I'll be back tonight to see your thoughts.
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On May 13 2013 04:18 VayneAuthority wrote: Other things that strike me as odd going through calgar's filter is defending casey/targe but then not too long later declaring them as part of the scumteam. seems real weird to me.
Another more narcissistic fact is that he constantly displays his disdain for my play and how bad it is, and this was how I figured out that targe was mafia. Constantly saying how great jampi was and then he dies night 1. I really can't think of any reason that I have survived this long when I have been this active other than the mafia thinking I am a shit player. There's a lot of info I think you are passing up on in calgar's filter spicy so I wonder what you think about this stuff You seem to be using emotion (narcissism, disdain, perception of you as a shitty player) more than reason right now; I'd like to caution on that. Mafia wins by playing off emotion (like flattery) whereas town wins by using logic.
I definitely wasn't right from the very get-go on my reads but I don't think I defended casey/targe like you say.
Are we looking at the same filter in regards to jampi? I called him great constantly you say, but to me it looks like the only time I mention him directly is here:
On May 07 2013 03:05 calgar wrote: @jampi - I see you asking a lot of questions of other people but I'm not as clear on your reads. You've said there are a lot of scummy people running around so who's bugging you the most? How does this equate to me calling him great?
As for my "disdain for your play", I feel that you're exaggerating here. Despite reading you town, I think you've done scummy things during the game. I've stated specific reasons as to why I feel that way. That's all, nothing more and nothing less. Will you explain how my criticism of your play lead you to figure out targe was mafia like you say - I'm completely lost on that point.
As for surviving this long - mafia have only killed 2 players and there should have been another two town alive. Activity isn't always a reason to kill someone, there's lots of others like who they are pressuring, desire to continue/end certain lines of thinking, trying to orchestrate future mislynches, etc. I don't think it's a solid deduction to assume the reason you're alive is because they think you're a shit player.
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Alright, we kind of knew that was coming.
I think sugarfluff is the remaining scum and as such I'll be voting for him.
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MERP!
gg
thanks to marvellosity for answering all my questions!
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