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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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On April 05 2013 08:58 Palmar wrote: I say we lynch you on day one. How would you like that? ##Vote sciberbia Are you stupid? We should kill Ace. If he's mafia he's scary, if he's town he's a liability. ##Vote: Ace | ||
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On April 05 2013 09:21 Palmar wrote: No, I would never agree to killing someone purely based on the fact that he's better as scum than town. not entirely sure if srs | ||
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On April 05 2013 09:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: oh fuck, just kill sciberbia. and then WoS. GG. Why don't you answer sciberbia's question, sweetie <3 | ||
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On April 05 2013 09:53 Palmar wrote: btw marv when you said you were worried about me giving a serious answer, were you serious? and can you elaborate what makes it worrying? Seriousception. I was somewhat serious yes. It's curious you gave a serious answer to me about voting Ace, when my vote for him was predicated on the zero posts that he'd made so far in the game. For whatever reason you felt compelled to give me a proper reason for not voting for him, and I'm not entirely sure why. I was 'expecting' you to be like "oh yeah let's lynch Ace", although maybe I should have given better reasons... | ||
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On April 05 2013 09:58 Palmar wrote: First of all, I'm a lead troll, not a follow troll. Second, I'm surprised you don't remember I tried to lynch Bugs in some game a while back based on exactly the same notion, making my statement in this game ridiculous, and thus not serious at all. Wonder why you took it that way? Fairly easily explained by the fact that I don't remember that's why you said you wanted to lynch bugs. | ||
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On April 05 2013 10:02 Palmar wrote: yeah but still, I'd have thought you'd know me well enough to realize that I was hardly going to give a serious answer to a non-serious vote unless it was some ridiculous meta-trolling. Whatever though, carry on. Fine. It's just the fact that the answer you gave related directly to the reasoning I had given in my vote-post. rayn I have no idea why you're asking Palmar who to kill when you think you've found mafia in WoS. | ||
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On April 05 2013 12:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: jnfsakklnfsaklnfsalnk how do you read this? Mostly I read this as the fact that DarthPunk isn't WaveofShadow | ||
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On April 05 2013 12:29 raynpelikoneet wrote: Also WoS is scum. I promise I'll talk about it with you tomorrow, but I don't really want to see any more of you in the thread tonight. | ||
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On April 05 2013 17:21 Palmar wrote: Alright time to see what's going on in the thread. @marv: on a scale of 1-10 how certain are you that I'm town? @Oats: go yell at someone please. I have a slight townread on you, dunno how that translates into 1-10. Looks like I'm not gonna get Ace lynched today... *serious hat* ##Unvote | ||
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On April 05 2013 21:02 Palmar wrote: The fact the townread isn't stronger worries me slightly, I'd have expected you to know for sure I'm town by now. But I guess I can just stick that into my bag of worry about it later things along with what happened yesterday. Can you just confirm yourself one alignment or the other to bear me the annoyance of having to find out? You underestimate the level of respect I have for you, dear. I do plan on being less passive than Red, though ^^ | ||
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On April 05 2013 22:14 Oatsmaster wrote: what the hell palmar. WHAT IN THE WORLD DO YOU SEE IN IAMPS PLAY THAT MAKES HIM SCUM AND NOT how iamp normally is? You need to read: On April 05 2013 21:53 Palmar wrote: that's the most passionate lurker lynch I've seen in a while iamperfection. Nothing in Ace's filter points to him being scum. I'll give you that nothing points to him being town either. He's simply not playing the game at the moment, same can be said about tunkeg and sciberbia. Sure, if you want to lynch lurkers be my guest, but man, it feels really off how much you want this lynch to happen. What Palmar says about Ace is as much as you can say about Ace at this stage of the game. iamp's tunnelling the fuck out of a veteran player who is pretty known to be doing jack shit at this stage of the game. Superficially this is playing to iamp's meta; I've mentioned it before - he likes to attack people who should "know better", or who he expects to play a strong game. But Ace isn't a player that anyone should be expecting to be coming out guns blazing by this stage. I don't actually know what it means for iamp right now. Maybe he's enthusiastically going after a vet he expects more from, maybe it's a front to behave how he normally behaves as town. | ||
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marvellosity
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You're being ridiculous about Ace and now you're being ridiculous about me. I'm not used to you being ridiculous. What gives? | ||
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For what DP and Palmar brought up in the last couple pages. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I think you're putting up a front and it's fake. | ||
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On April 05 2013 22:50 iamperfection wrote: quicker people stop being useless the better don't care what their name is. So why Ace over any other useless guy? | ||
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marvellosity
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No, why. Lynching is something specific, when you lynch someone you're lynching that guy specifically ahead of any other guy. You don't lynch people because why not. So why? | ||
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On April 05 2013 23:03 iamperfection wrote: i believe i have said like 8 billion times because he bother to let us know he was here but didnt do shit. He also ran away when i specifically called him out after he somewhat addressed me directly but then said nothing about me or anything else in the thread Fine. So if I told you that Ace would do this all the time as either alignment, how would you factor this in? | ||
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Sorry for the triple post :x | ||
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On April 06 2013 00:30 Palmar wrote: Well you shouldn't, in red team I was like confirmed town from 10 minutes into the game. Here I should be "strong town read", not confirmed, but strong. No, you weren't. I was leaning town on you for most of Day 1 and then I stopped leaning town on you towards the end of Day 1. You can verify this by looking at my filter there. I don't like that you're talking bollocks here. On the other hand, what you're doing here is something I'm prone to doing as town, thinking I should look townier to other people than I do. | ||
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Go! :> | ||
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On April 06 2013 01:17 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh hai guise. Just finished an exam, did well on another and I'm feelin' gooooooooood. SO whass all this I come back to? Errrboddy got a scum read on me yet nobody wants to throw a vote over this way, huh? K. Hai Oats. It's a pleasure to be in a game with you finally. Apparently Marv's vote on Ace was a joke and some sort of bait into seeing if he could get anyone else to vote with him so he could name them scummy? Or something? He calls Rayn looney but agrees with his horribly bad analysis of my 3 posts...not sure why such a seemingly solid player is associating himself with a read like that but anyway....do YOU have a read on me or any opinion regarding Ace? Tell me why you think the analysis is horrible. | ||
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marvellosity
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On April 06 2013 02:13 sciberbia wrote: Any thoughts on what I said about Oats? Agree/disagree with my points? Do you guys think he is scum? Read this (or a couple of pages at least) and get back to me with your opinion on Oats. | ||
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On April 06 2013 02:20 Palmar wrote: so we've established everyone is town except sciberbia and WoS? I found this too funny. Don't know why. Anyway I'll talk about shit properly later, I'm kinda just watching for now. | ||
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On April 06 2013 04:49 prplhz wrote: can anybody tell me why axlegreaser is town Can you actually properly tell me why he isn't? | ||
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On April 06 2013 00:39 Oatsmaster wrote: Am I not making myself clear? Im reading it as we kill this guy day 1 and only day 1 because he is a good lynch on day 1. Like day 1 as in generally, not specifically. DOES IT NOT READ LIKE THAT TO YOU? I'd say (and I'm pretty sure Oats would confirm this) that I'm the player he fears most in case he rolls mafia, and he's not afraid to rile me up. I see no particular reason he should be mafia right now | ||
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marvellosity
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prplhz has been pretty shit so far. He starts off with some random read on Axle, and then asks the thread if Axle is usually a 'dwerp' or whatever dumbass word he used. prplhz bloody played with Axle before in LIX. He even shared a QT with him because they were both mafia, where Axle was pretty Axle-y. He should have an idea about how he plays, and yet he's playing dumb. Further he pops into the thread 1.5 hours ago to ask why Axle is town, but he doesn't bother sticking around to talk to anyone around it. prplhz is null leaning a bit scum to me right now. He could just be being shit. This is eminently possible. Oh yeah, you were talking about his rayn stuff. Don't really read too much into it tbh. | ||
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On April 06 2013 19:30 Palmar wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote Sciberbia I think this is the direction I want to go in. Can you explain it to me nice because I really want to lynch someone else right now. | ||
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On April 06 2013 19:36 Palmar wrote: I already thought he didn't look very good, then I very much did not like his big post on Oats/Iamp. Maybe I'm insane here, but I really don't think it's reasonable to push oats at the moment. Also sciberbia has a few of those indirect question things I don't really like, I mentioned it in my first post against him, this validation seeking thing. Alright. You don't realise this because I've kept my cards close to my chest so far this game, but I agree completely with everything you've said about the people I'm suspicious of. I agree about the big post on oats/iamp. He spent several paragraphs defending iamp when he only had one serious detractor at the time (DP) and I didn't find the push on Oats very reasonable either (maybe you can guess this from my reaction). Also agreed with the validation thing - talking about setup is fine, except he kinda didn't even really give an opinion, he was just fawning at you. The problem I have is that what you picked out from WoS about his town-claim is exactly what I picked out (and incidentally made me feel much better about YOUR alignment). I find it bizarre as shit that you're the only one to mention it in those terms actually. Just to repeat for anyone who's not me & Palmar: On April 05 2013 09:21 WaveofShadow wrote: Phew. Real happy I rolled town this time around; I feel really bad for whoever is on my scumteam when I roll mafia for the first time. It felt disgusting to me, and I've not actually been able to stop thinking about it all game. It's been like the main thing in my head. Because it doesn't take very long, I went back and had a look at the opening of all WoS's games yesterday. He's always rolled town, and he's never mentioned his alignment in his opening post in any of the games he's played here so far. So in this game, he rolls town for the... 6th? time or so, and for some reason, in this game, he decides to tell us that he's town, and worse talks about feeling bad if he rolls mafia. I don't understand the mentality here at all if he's town. He's rolled town again as per usual, and for some reason this time decides to tell us that at some point he'll be shit as mafia? What? I could write more about WoS and flesh out the case if it's really necessary. Suffice to say (and basically what Palmar/Tunkeg) have said, nothing he's said or done since has alleviated the feelings I got from this first post. I think he's a better lynch than sciberbia. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow | ||
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On April 06 2013 19:54 Palmar wrote: iamp doesn't look too bad honestly. But I don't think Oats does either. They both look fine. And it's not that iamp does or doesn't look fine that's even the point about that post. I didn't really see the need to spend half of his first major analysis defending someone who didn't need defending. And I think Oats is town. So *shrug* | ||
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marvellosity
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You should be seeing me as pretty strong town by now. Just saying. | ||
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On April 06 2013 20:14 Palmar wrote: also I don't see this connection, but I'm also not a fan of associative tells at all, I believe they give weapons to the mafia. I'll talk about it later maybe. Anyway there's something I want to check from WoS's past games that I haven't checked yet, namely how he responded to suspicion. WoS has for some reason always been under heavy suspicion on the Day 1s of the games he's played, even though while obsing I've found him fairly townie. In this game he threw dirt on rayn ("horrible analysis" - which he backed off from incidentally) and on me ("don't know why marv, a seemingly solid player, is agreeing with rayn"). I don't remember him doing this in other games, but until I check I'll do you the courtesy of an ##Unvote | ||
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marvellosity
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I'm curious how you're standing so firmly against Palmar on sciberbia, normally you respect his judgement quite a lot. | ||
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marvellosity
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##Vote: sciberbia | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote: WaveofShadow | ||
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marvellosity
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People I loosely trust at this stage: iamp, Oats, rayn, Palmar. That's pretty shoddy and I don't think it's because I'm shit at reading people. | ||
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Posts like that. That's why. | ||
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On April 06 2013 22:57 DarthPunk wrote: There is no reason for that post to give people a scum read on me. You antagonised *him* by telling him to post something useful, when he has in fact done so. What's the point in telling him to do something useful when you've not read the game yet? To use kiddie school terminology, YOU STARTED IT. Pissing your vote away because you're being a child isn't a townie thing to do, I'll tell you that for free. | ||
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marvellosity
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Anyway I'm not going to argue with you any more. Just do your best with the time you have before you leave, because it's quite possible we'll arrive at a lynch while you're in bed. A vote on iamp doesn't cut it. | ||
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marvellosity
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iamp is 100% not getting lynched today and we will need a majority. So if you're fine wasting your vote, then be my guest. | ||
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Stop talking about it and go look at some realistic candidates, for the love of god. | ||
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On April 06 2013 23:22 iamperfection wrote: my ego wont allow it. i want to see if i can get ppl to join me. i might join you later Well I'll pretty much be defending prplhz from the lynch, so you got me to go through. | ||
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On April 06 2013 23:29 Oatsmaster wrote: Huh. Is this like the Palmar town read in Red where he was scum in my eyes but town in yours? No, it's like my current Ace read in Ego Mini Mafia ^_^ | ||
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On April 06 2013 23:32 Oatsmaster wrote: Is the Ace in THE GAME the typical town Ace? I'm not *that* familiar with Ace's play. From what I know he doesn't normally post that much. I got a towntell from him in Paranoia that was correct, but I didn't get any towntells from him in The Game. If he's mafia, then he's happy with what Palmar and I are pushing (WoS, sciberbia) because he's not interfering. I can't really say anything much stronger on the subject right now. | ||
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On April 06 2013 00:20 Palmar wrote: honestly: DP: NOT READING YOUR POSTS LOL | ||
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On April 06 2013 23:54 sciberbia wrote: 2) WaveofShadow - claims town in first post when he knows it may draw attention - draws attention by making multi-line posts and not spamming - in and out of thread - huge-ass post for no reason - conspiracy theory (?) with Axle and Rayn - "you got me" post about his vote on Ace - philosophical problem with Ace/prplhz CONCLUSION: thinking town Literally none of these are reasons to think he's town. Jeez. | ||
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On April 07 2013 00:10 sciberbia wrote: I can expand. In the last game I played with WoS, there was some deal made about people claiming town, and zarepath was all like claims town --> scummy. So I don't think WoS would be especially keen to claim town, unless he was genuinely extremely relieved to roll town. I don't think he would do that as scum. Everyone else was trolling and WoS started writing these huge-ass posts. I think this also leaves him open to attack and I don't see why he would do it as scum. Conspiracy theories are very townie imo. Like, it was a pretty unlikely theory. Rayn and Axle both scum and both misinterpreted WoS's posts together in the scum QT? I'm not even sure that was it. But it shows the paranoid mind of a townie. I thought his explanation of his Ace vote was reasonable. And I think that being frustrated with people not doing anything is very typical of a townie. And he seemed genuinely frustrated. Do you disagree with these points marv? The issue is that he goes on to babble about how he'll be awful as mafia. I don't have a problem with townclaims in general, it's the way this one was done. Writing huge-ass posts is meaningless. And he only wrote a huge-ass post because he'd come under heavy fire. People were not trolling at this stage. If you think this is the case, read the thread again. | ||
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Here you're far more absent and sporadic. Any particular reason? | ||
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On April 07 2013 01:01 DarthPunk wrote: You don't get to just say that marv. You are wrong all the time. So give me something other than that. It is insulting at the very least that I have put in a lot of time writing a strong case on a scummy player that you get to shut it down with three words. Wrong a lot less than you sweetie. I already talked about Oats in my filter and nothing's changed as far as I'm concerned. | ||
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On April 07 2013 01:06 DarthPunk wrote: This is a bullshit argument. It doesn't matter who is wrong more. You need to provide a new argument when new evidence is available. You are wrong enough that you can't act like everything you say is fact without providing anything. Which is something I do not do. Except he's town | ||
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On April 07 2013 01:37 Tunkeg wrote: This is the guy to lynch today. I give you the Tunkeg guarantee that he is scum. Good enough for me. And I'm not even kidding. | ||
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marvellosity
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Probably you're disappearing now or very soon, which means for the first 48 hours of this game I'm not quite sure where to put you, and I don't like that. | ||
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On April 07 2013 02:00 Palmar wrote: okay tunkeg, I'm willing to roll with this. ##Unvote ##Vote WaveOfShadow To be honest most of my reservations lynching him have simply been how many people called him out, sciberbia seems like the harder lynch. But ok, let's do this, murder him. They're both looking pretty tough to me right now >.< I kinda just want someone to die and flip really. | ||
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Thank you for YOUR continued cooperation. | ||
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This game he's bitched at rayn repeatedly without ever calling him mafia, he called prplhz mafia, totally recanted it, and then put suspicion on him anyway, and... and... uh, yeah, that's it. I don't understand what similarities you think you're drawing. | ||
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On April 07 2013 03:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: EBWOP: hats = hosts, fuck this internet connection Who knew internet connection affected spelling! I learnt something new today. I think Dandel explicitly said this was completely RNG. | ||
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Talk to me, you're not dead yet. So prplhz looks bad to you. Who else? Who looks town? | ||
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On April 07 2013 03:37 WaveofShadow wrote: So where's the hammer, bros? Something holding you back? Ace apparently wants to keep me alive for some reason, scib thinks I'm town so it won't be them. Iamp? Axle? Gotta be one of you two. Could you answer my previous question please? | ||
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I want some time to think about this and we don't have a deadline looming over us. What really bothers me is that you've not bothered doing anything until you're about to die. I want Palmar to soothe my furrowed brow too. | ||
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On April 07 2013 06:29 Palmar wrote: hey buddy. who we lynch? What do you make of WoS's death posts? | ||
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On April 07 2013 05:11 Ace wrote: I've been busy WoS. I actually don't think you should be lynched at the moment, as I think Oats is a far bigger distraction. Marv is just talking nonsense as always. WoS since you're at L-2 right now don't hesitate to claim when the next person votes.I'm not gonna hammer you unless that situation resolves itself. For now tho: ##vote: Oatsmaster Doesn't mean he's mafia. I would say stop being shit, but I know this is an impossibility. | ||
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On April 07 2013 08:36 Ace wrote: There is no solid reason for lynching sciberbia. Unvoting WoS makes no sense here. Wos where did you claim? Unlike Oats, who is "scum at best, town is worst"? Super solid reason you have there, Ace. I'm with Palmar on this one. And your irrational opposition to the lynch while championing an equally irrational lynch makes me feel better about it too. You're telling us/town it makes no sense to unvote WoS, but you've never actually had your vote on him yourself. If you're so sure, why weren't you hammering his wagon? #paranoia #yolo #willlookatthegamewhilenotundertheinfluencetomorrow ##Vote: sciberbia | ||
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On April 07 2013 08:45 Ace wrote: I also believe it's possible it really was a genuine reaction. Which is why I unvoted him and asked him that question to confirm my reasoning. However, where does the sciberbia vote come from? Can you explain that? If you believe that WoS is playing straightforward, then based on the information you have - why isn't sciberbia being afforded the same courtesy? Nothing in his play so far seem out of the ordinary so what stands out to you that warrants a vote? On April 07 2013 05:11 Ace wrote: I've been busy WoS. I actually don't think you should be lynched at the moment, as I think Oats is a far bigger distraction. Marv is just talking nonsense as always. WoS since you're at L-2 right now don't hesitate to claim when the next person votes.I'm not gonna hammer you unless that situation resolves itself. For now tho: ##vote: Oatsmaster WoS never claimed, you never had your vote on him, you didn't think he should be lynched at any point. Stop making shit up, Ace. | ||
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On April 07 2013 08:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: Hmm marv, why vote for sci if your last post implies you think Ace is scum? read my filter | ||
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On April 07 2013 08:51 Ace wrote: Marv quoted my post knowing I asked WoS to claim. Clearly he's been reading the thread and knows WoS said he did actually claim already. Hence, when Marv says "WoS never claimed" he knows WoS was lying. WoS said "Claim what?" I've no idea what his "I already did" was referring to. On April 07 2013 08:36 Ace wrote: There is no solid reason for lynching sciberbia. Unvoting WoS makes no sense here. Wos where did you claim?[ On April 07 2013 08:45 Ace wrote: I also believe it's possible it really was a genuine reaction. Which is why I unvoted him and asked him that question to confirm my reasoning. However, where does the sciberbia vote come from? Can you explain that? If you believe that WoS is playing straightforward, then based on the information you have - why isn't sciberbia being afforded the same courtesy? Nothing in his play so far seem out of the ordinary so what stands out to you that warrants a vote? These posts do not go together. "It makes no sense to unvote WoS" ... "I believe it's possible it was a genuine reaction" So... it does make sense, right? | ||
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I'll sort this out tomorrow | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:12 Palmar wrote: @marv, you played with sciberbia as town in dwarf fortress. What did you think about him day 1 there and why? I thought he looked very town and as I recall he pushed what was a very sensible lynch (Forumite) even though I believed it was an incorrect one at the time. In some ways sciberbia seems less distant than whatever game it was that you were town and he was mafia in, and yet his push on Oats makes no sense to me, in addition to the things you mentioned already. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:12 sciberbia wrote: Can you answer my question about prplhz before you go? Do you see anything that makes you think he is town? If not, what makes this game different from Dwarf Mini and your mayor game? No, not really. I'd say he was a backup lynch for today. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:37 Ace wrote: outside of this WoS stuff and Oats he's actually the best lynch. What? On April 07 2013 05:13 Ace wrote: there's no way sciberbia should even be in danger of lynching right now. That silliness might be where the Scum are hiding. On April 07 2013 08:36 Ace wrote: There is no solid reason for lynching sciberbia. Unvoting WoS makes no sense here. that's not what that sounds like at all. | ||
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"silliness" != 3rd best lynch. | ||
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I would have hoped, as town, that you would be able to take a broader view of Oats' play; some loud dude, pointing fingers and generally being all over the place on Day 1 - this is literally THE classic mislynch in Newbie games. So meh. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:45 Ace wrote: what? are you serious? How in the world did I just imply sciberbia is a decent lynch? Those quotes don't even have any relation to me saying you are the 3rd best lynch option. My bad, I thought you were talking about scib, you were talking about me. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:50 Ace wrote: If he is constantly doing things that Scum do, and you alerted him to it, and he continues to do it and we believe he is a rational person playing to his win condition as Town - then he would stop doing things to get mislynched as Town. Hence, he would be scum. Why are you ignoring his play even though you said you told him pregame what to fix? He doesn't get mislynched as town because usually he has me to protect him in game  | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:48 DarthPunk wrote: Marv what exactly have you said to make sciberbia scum aside from associations with someone you just unvoted? Seems like you are trying to make an association case before the flip and the association is now with someone you are unwilling to lynch. So when you say to look in your filter for the reason behind your sciberbia vote with ZERO justification and all I find is the above quotes. I don't know What the fuck you are talking about. Here: On April 06 2013 19:44 marvellosity wrote: Alright. You don't realise this because I've kept my cards close to my chest so far this game, but I agree completely with everything you've said about the people I'm suspicious of. I agree about the big post on oats/iamp. He spent several paragraphs defending iamp when he only had one serious detractor at the time (DP) and I didn't find the push on Oats very reasonable either (maybe you can guess this from my reaction). Also agreed with the validation thing - talking about setup is fine, except he kinda didn't even really give an opinion, he was just fawning at you. It's essentially just agreeing with Palmar, because I... agreed with Palmar. No need to rehash everything. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:53 marvellosity wrote: He doesn't get mislynched as town because usually he has me to protect him in game I would say, I never told him to fix anything. He just told me that he found people who attacked him townie, and I told him that was stupid because people find it easy to attack him because of his playstyle. | ||
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On April 07 2013 09:58 Palmar wrote: whatever, everyone thinks I'm town. you guys can sort the rest out. fuck this game it's too hard. don't do this, pretty please <3 | ||
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On April 07 2013 15:31 sciberbia wrote: Yes I just explained one significant reason I have for thinking marv is scum. He has a lot of scum motivation for trying to get me lynched on Palmar's wagon. I would expect a town marv to have more reservations about lynching me for fear of losing a town scib. He had almost no reasons for voting me, and the one original reason he provided was very bad imo. I just explained this. Why are you even pulling a comment from a past QT? I said explicitly in this game how I view your abilities. The fact is that for whatever reason you disagreed with my reasoning on you which was essentially Palmar's reasoning. I just didn't fluff mine out because Palmar had done so already. Just to repeat, you spent half a very long analysis post defending someone who was under attack from one person, and attacked someone else who I thought and still think is clearly a bad lynch. In doing so, you completely ignored WoS who had been under some suspicion, and who may yet still be mafia. I didn't / do not understand why you devoted so much of that post to talking about someone quite townie in iamp rather than talking about someone much more controversial in WoS, who you left until much later. This not-talking-about WoS, in conjunction with the long (in my opinion kinda weird) post on iamp and Oats, gave me more the feeling of that mini you rolled mafia, where the primary determinant of seeing you as mafia is that although your posts looked ok, you seemed pretty disconnected with the thread, whereas as town you're much more in the thick of things. At any rate, even though it took ~48 hours, you now ARE more in the thick of things (even if it is with suspicion of me) and so I'm backing down from thinking you're a good lynch right now. In any case, if a scum-marv wanted to get you lynched, dear, I'd make sure I did so in a pretty airtight fashion. Literally every single vote I ever cast as mafia is backed up by "rock solid" reasoning, to prevent stuff like *this* happening to me. What's happening right here happens to me when I'm town; e.g. Personality I was attacked for throwing votes around Day 1, e.g. "##vote: Stutters. let's see how this goes" Or in Fruity mafia a mafia Toad spent his entire time alive (until i had him killed) trying to discredit me for a vote I put on him which had very little reasoning other than "yeah i agree with sand". Anyone with any passing familiarity with my scumplay should know I never look bad for my votes. It's just basic stuff. I was feeling pretty good about this game yesterday afternoon because Palmar had the same two reads I had with basically the same reasoning. Except I fleshed out why I found WoS scummier and Palmar ended up on my wagon, and Palmar fleshed out why he found sciberbia scummier and I ended up on his wagon, but I'm mafia? If nothing else this is monumentally inconsistent and confusing. Going back to the Oats thing, no I don't find DP suspicious for attacking Oats because like I mentioned before I hold you in a higher regard than him, and I hold you in a significantly higher regard than a town-Ace, who couldn't make a good read if he was in a fucking library. Since I started playing here a year ago, I've only ever seen town-Ace champion town lynches or get mislynched himself. He's awful as town. For some reason people don't seem to care that Ace is highly inconsistent with himself starting from about last night. He tells us that there is no good reason for unvoting WaveofShadow, and then concedes that his posts felt genuine - so... this is a good reason to unvote WaveofShadow. He also says "this" - I don't know what "this" is - was the reason that Ace "unvoted" him. Ace never had his vote on him. A small mistake perhaps, but in The Game Ace almost led a blatantly town VE to the gallows for "lying". I said yesterday at some point that I couldn't really read Ace as mafia because he didn't seem to be pushing any agenda; I can't say that now. | ||
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On April 07 2013 21:03 DarthPunk wrote: That was the major point defending yourself. The rest was justification of your questionable actions. Essentially the argument against the scummiest things against you (no reasons for votes, no original case, rephrasing palmar etc) is that you wouldn't do that as scum. I am not going to engage with you buddy. I am trying not to get into Flame wars this game. It wasn't the major point at all. I was explaining myself to sciberbia so he could understand my thought process. the bit about my past games was just some context. Learn to read. | ||
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The very fact that you broke my post down to the response you gave basically shows you're incapable of critical thought. | ||
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On April 07 2013 21:16 DarthPunk wrote: No I just know that you can rationalise anything and make it seem reasonable. Disagreeing with you does not make me an idiot despite you trying to create that myth. I am quite content in my ability to think critically thanks. What this says is that there's no way you won't see me as scum, because any bad explanation i give is scummy, but any good explanation I give isn't townie, because I'm capable of giving it as scum. Ergo, even if I explain my thought process in an open way, it's impossible for you to read town from it because I'm capable of doing so as scum, apparently. You also belittle my self-meta analysis, fine, self-meta analysis is in itself kinda useless. But you've played many games with me and you should know that what I talked about IS true. Or you can go and check for yourself what I'm referencing, that it's true. You can go look at the GSL game you like to reference and see if I made any "shit" votes there. Actually you're reasonably intimate with how I play, we've played, what, a good 8 games together? Why would you disregard my past games? All this is precisely the definition of confirmation bias. | ||
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Take this game out of a vacuum for a moment, and pretend we're talking outside the game about my play. To repeat, forget about this game for a moment. I could state that; 1) I never make 'badly' explained votes as mafia 2) I regularly make such votes as town, and I can provide evidence for this Conclusion: making such votes is actually a 100% towntell for me. Ok, now we can bring it back to this game, because I understand that a mafia-marv can make this defence. But from *my* perspective, look at what *I* am seeing from you. I'm seeing DarthPunk, a player who has played many games with me, confidently calling me mafia over something that I know for me is usually a towntell. Does it necessarily mean I'm town this game? Of course not! No, I could be scum doing it this game. But from my perspective it should be giving you a fucking lot of pause calling me mafia and voting me as strongly as you are now. It's something I can't understand when you should know me better than this. This is entirely on top of the fact, as explained in my long post, my feelings for sciberbia weren't without reasoning, they were just very similar to Palmar's. Would you really have rathered I'd written a couple of paragraphs paraphrasing him every time I wanted to vote for someone? Why? Why are you so bothered that I agreed with Palmar's reasoning and came with him on to sciberbia, but it doesn't bother you in the slightest when Palmar effectively does the same with WaveofShadow? You're calling my reads/reasoning questionable, but they entirely aligned with Palmar's, and I said as much, yet you're voting for me and you don't give a shit about him? I don't get at all why you wanted me to over-explain my sciberbia vote when the reasoning was already in the thread. NONE of this do I understand. | ||
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On April 07 2013 22:14 DarthPunk wrote: Marv am I more likely scum or town? Why don't you just answer my last post properly instead, we're in civil mode now. | ||
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On April 07 2013 22:05 Oatsmaster wrote: then what did he say? Hmm? I thought he backed off out of everything and now is gonna be like Red Team. Which is slightly disappointing  Yes, he backed off everything, but he didn't say you were his only scum suspect either. He said "maybe you" in an offhand manner, which is completely different. | ||
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1. DP is reasonable town in his suspicions of me 2. DP is unreasonable town in his suspicions of me 3. DP is mafia Where this last page has got me is this far. 2. DP is unreasonable town in his suspicions of me 3. DP is mafia I'd quite like to hear what iamp makes of it, he's usually pretty good at picking out these things. | ||
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1) you're voting for me on what is usually (in fact always, before this game) a towntell for me 2) you're voting for me for not explaining my sciberbia read, when I previously had 3) you're still voting for me despite me explaining very clearly and rationally how I went about the scib read, why I went about the scib read, and despite me trying to basically unsuccessfully engage you on my play, which you should know really quite well These aren't reasonable actions, hence I scratched out 1. | ||
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On April 08 2013 00:06 Oatsmaster wrote: vote someone now please marv. Marv with no suspicions makes unhappy Oats. The three people I'm currently looking at are Ace, prplhz, WoS. I think WoS pre- all that stuff looked atrocious, and I need to work out what he did is enough to sway my opinion finally. It was enough to not make me not want to lynch him on the spot, but that's a different matter. Ace never brings anything new to the table, basically followed someone on Oats, followed DP on me, wanted to kill Oats for being a 'distraction', said he'd voted WoS when he hadn't. prplhz kinda seems like the key to this game. I think if I can solve prplhz then the game becomes much easier, so I'll be trying to do that today. Would help if prplhz came and engaged more too. scib looks better pending on how we interact in the thread later | ||
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On April 08 2013 00:56 AxleGreaser wrote: based on previous posting I am hoping he can be in the thread soon. The questions are a ways back in the thread now. I have arranged my sleep to allow me some overlap. I do want to be sure he sees the questions and realises they are current. This post ensures he knows I will be around. He was in the TL Mafia forum today, but for whatever reason chose not to post here. | ||
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On April 08 2013 00:57 Oatsmaster wrote: Marv, mind clueing me in on what you see in Scib that makes him townie? Like you didnt tell me why palmar in Red Team. his willingness to actively engage with people | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:02 Oatsmaster wrote: Did he do this in the scum game he played recently? YANM? Not really, else I wouldn't be giving that out as a reason, eh? for what it's worth, this is what I said about him in the obsQT of that game: marvellosity posted sciberbia's played pretty nicely. only two things with his play: 1) he attacked wiggles early, but didn't vote him until much later (when he had to) 2) despite his good posts, there's a certain level of disconnection, or a lack of investment and emotional involvement, with town | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:10 Oatsmaster wrote: Yes I think prome told me this postgame. What do you mean by disconnection? Like what characterizes it rather than connection? It seems to me somewhat subjective and nebulous That's what constitutes reads. It's like I told you in Red Team that on the whole I found Palmar's posts sincere, which is why I didn't want to lynch him. But it's almost impossible to show you posts and tell you exactly why I find the posts sincere. | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:20 WaveofShadow wrote: I'll be around now, I was around earlier today but I was out for a couple hours and apparently the 'active' times in this game are quite unlike many of the games I've been in so far. I think it's the ratio of UK/Aussie/Europe/whatever. Axle I think I remember reading some threat where you're going to vote me if I don't respond to you, I don't give a fuck about that but I'll re-read whatever it was you posted and see if I can actually decipher something you've said for once. Marv before I left last time I had asked you why exactly you and Ace seemed to think I was lying about my claim and you never answered. I think it was you as well who called my early posting 'derpy' and I'd like to know what about it you find as such. Oh and one more thing Marv, what are your thoughts on the so-called 'Kenpachi rule?' I don't quite understand what you think the question is about your "claim". What claim? What did I say you lied about, other than when i said i wanted to lynch you because I found your first post really fake? I don't have any particular thoughts on the kenpachi rule and as it's not particularly relevant, I'll leave it at that. | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:33 WaveofShadow wrote: You don't seem to believe my first post is a claim. Ah, yes for whatever reason I thought he was talking about some turn of events while you were on the chopping block, but he was talking about your original post somehow, which still confuses the fuck out of me (not your post, rather what he was getting at). | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:38 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm curious as to what makes a town claim scummy exactly. It depends on how the town claim is put across. Read my large-ish post when I voted you for why I found it (and still find it) scummy. | ||
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On April 08 2013 01:52 WaveofShadow wrote: Haha wow Marv, I really expect better here from what I've heard of you. You REALLY see no town mentality behind this? How about the fact that I've played 5-6 (I forget) games now and in NONE of them I've been scum, and am therefore actually worried about the fact that when I do roll scum, I will let me team down because I'll suck? Since you're using meta to make this argument against me, maybe you should look back into my previous games and see if that fits with my meta of being unsure of myself, speaking my mind, telling the truth, etc. So many people always looking so much into what's not there. You'd think after seeing so many other people do it and fail all the time I'd learn this lesson myself when concocting mad conspiracy theories. By all means though, if you think a townclaim on a whim is enough to get me lynched, go for it. You said you don't even remember why you unvoted me in the first place, right? Right, so you're worried about when you rolled scum. Except, apparently, you didn't roll scum. So why even talk about it? What's the point? You didn't feel the need to talk about it in your previous 5 town games, and yet you receive your TOWN role here and say that you're worried about when you roll MAFIA, which isn't this game. Apparently. Sense it make not. | ||
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On April 08 2013 02:44 WaveofShadow wrote: Actually....null on Tunkeg. I'd like to see more from him and the pressure on me seems genuine but I'm not really sure what the post about giving me an 'out' is about. Actually he was extremely explicit, I don't know what you're confused about. | ||
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On April 08 2013 02:41 Ace wrote: I've got you in Priority 1 right now. I don't know if you're just lazy or still fucking around like this isn't the time to get serious but a "lynch reyn" post is amongst a few others where you just show up and don't even comment on the current situation and say something useless. The only reason you won't get lynched, as you and I both know very well, is that these players hesitate to lynch "vets" and quickly throw town their town reads out leading to stagnation. Rubbish, I will happily lynch Palmar in any game, but I've seen no reason to do so this game. | ||
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On April 08 2013 02:26 Palmar wrote: @marv. Write me a list of three or four names that are the scumteam. No reasoning needed at all. Also, write me a list of 5 town reads. Use at least two one sentence to justify your read. If you can't read me properly by now, I see little reason to dance to your tune. | ||
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On April 08 2013 03:17 Ace wrote: I didn't vote WoS yet only because I was waiting on him to come in and explain himself after the "where is the claim I can't find it?" post. I don't know if you read my last response with WoS but it's all cleared up on that end. WoS didn't understand what I was asking and I didn't understand what he meant by stating he already claimed. The marv part was me seeing marv following the same thought process I was and not seeing the potential WoS lie. Unlike WoS who I had a misunderstanding with, marv says WoS didn't claim. If he didn't claim, but he stated he did claim then there is a lie there. Marv somehow missed that. Since marv claims to be a good player I don't see how he could have missed that. Does this make sense now? and yes the shhhh post was me hoping iamp didn't spoil a potential trap  But we've already moved past the claim thing. The issue is resolved. Because it's irrelevant. Obviously I didn't miss WoS coming out saying he was town at the beginning, because it was my basis for voting for him, mostly. So what the fuck are you talking about? Speaking of such things, I'd expect a player who has been playing for several years to remember if they had their vote on somebody or not: On April 07 2013 08:45 Ace wrote: I also believe it's possible it really was a genuine reaction. Which is why I unvoted him and asked him that question to confirm my reasoning. However, where does the sciberbia vote come from? Can you explain that? If you believe that WoS is playing straightforward, then based on the information you have - why isn't sciberbia being afforded the same courtesy? Nothing in his play so far seem out of the ordinary so what stands out to you that warrants a vote? For reference, in case you forgot, you did not. So you can't unvote him. But that's ok, I shouldn't expect you to remember who you have your vote on, right? | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:06 prplhz wrote: about axle i guess i moved on for the while. he's not clear at all but his filter is full of weird chezinuish crap and i just don't feel like deciphering that right now. Can you tell me why you were askign the thread about Axle when you've played and shared a QT with him? I don't get this. | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:16 Palmar wrote: I also want this to help me decide. But whatever. When in doubt go with my original gut read. ##vote sciberbia You want details on my townreads to help you decide your lynch? *glares* If you're gonna vote sciberbia you're going to have to tell me why you still feel his posting in the 2nd half of this game so far keeps him as mafia. I would lynch Ace with you easy peasy. If you genuinely want to talk about people with me, I'll be home in 20 minutes and we can figure things out, but I'm not sure sciberbia is gonna fly unless you can point towards something that will make it fly. | ||
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On April 08 2013 02:39 Palmar wrote: I think I'll start eliminating people I think are town and then just lynching into the rest of the players. DP looks pretty towny iamperfection looks pretty towny I really liked Tunkeg's case so I guess I'll say he's town for now Axle to me looks quite towny I'm town. This now leaves a 7 player pool I'm considering trying to lynch. sciberbia WoS Ace Marv prplhz Oats slotmachinedude Does anyone think it's unlikely that 2-3 scum are in this list? yes to iamp, towniest guy in the game Palmar quite townie, sincere posts Tunkeg I had to go back and check, but his push on WoS looks good, and also this post caught my eye: On April 08 2013 04:37 Tunkeg wrote: I will give this a final push now that we got a deadline. Lynch fucking WoS! He haven't even bothered answering my call out to him, and haven't even bothered to make a singular attempt at making one good case on prplhz! He is basicly in the thread doing nothing!!! Tell me what I can do to convince you guys that he is scum? Because I am certain he is! And frankly I am great at catching scum (no matter what you believe/I am just bad at pushing them). I very rarely have my vote on someone that isn't scum, the only exceptions are when I get agitated at someone and let my anger cloud my judgement. I am in no way angry at WoS, I have read and analysed him with an open mind, I have reevaluated my stance on him (comming to the same conclusion as before), and I am certain, 100 % that he is scum. I know some of you think I am a clown who can't play this fucking game, well, if I am wrong here you can go back to thinking I am just a shit player, but I am not, and you will credit me for this lynch. WoS is my wagon, and my lynch. Now get on it! You will thank me later! Spefically what I've bolded townies usually say. From a personal POV, for obvious reasons I'm usually much more reticent talking myself up when I'm mafia. DP - iamp doesn't have anything to say about him, you seem to think he's townie having read our tete-a-tete, so let's go with town. Axle leaning town but I'm not sure at all. what he's posted feels fine, but he screamed townie to me in Noir and I haven't had the same feeling here. He is right though when he said that there are more players and there are weird interactions when experienced players play together. I can understand how it looks weird looking in. Oats I'm really quite sure is town. Like my top 3 towns are probably iamp/palmar/oats, I think in that order, but 2 and 3 are close. I've seen nothing to make me think he's mafia and I caught him super easily last time he rolled mafia. This leaves rayn prplhz Ace WoS sciberbia I thought rayn was townie originally for his splurge on the thread, now i'm not so sure because he's disappeared. I don't know where to put him. prplhz was getting scummier to me as he continud to do nothing until he came in this evening and pursued something actually worth pursuing with Ace. Seems to be putting himself at risk by taking on Ace, dunno why he'd choose Ace of all people if he was mafia. sciberbia looks better for actively seeking out you and me to try and talk to us about things, rather than just dropping analysis posts and fucking off. WoS I think is still a good lynch. I'm kinda inclined with the benefit of hindsight to agree with what Tunkeg said about his posts last night. What bugs me is that he made those posts, the votes moved off him, and he didn't feel the need to post again. His push on prplhz reads more as constant sniping at him rather than a sustained push, like Tunkeg is doing for example. And he's sneered at me and my abilities on 2 or 3 occasions this game despite calling himself unsure and insecure. Ace is pushing bad lynches and bad ideas, and he's not even doing it off his own back. In Paranoia he LED the terrible lynch on me along with wbg his lapdog. And in The Game he LED the terrible lynch on VE. Here he only calls Oats suspicious after sciberbia does; he only gets on my ass after DP does, he votes Oats for being a 'distraction' and genuinely seems to use the argument "if oats is playing like his townself and his townself gets him in trouble, he must be mafia for playing exactly like he does as town because he should change his playstyle". Whatever. In addition the strange obsession with the WoS claim that has no outcome I can see, the fact he says there's no reason to unvote WoS before conceding that his posts felt genuine and that was a reason, he's constantly discrediting you (Palmar) but he's too scared to call you mafia, he just keeps jabbing at you, he's done it several times, and I can't see any reason for him to do this if he's town unless he thinks you're mafia, but he seems too scared to actually make that claim. So yeah, the last two are who I'm looking at to lynch today. | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:51 WaveofShadow wrote: You're wrong, and I'm not getting lynched today. I could revert back to a lynch on Ace, marv/Palmar since I am less sure of prplhz now as per my reasoning earlier. I don't know if you'd call scib not voting me a 'save' per se, but no he did not vote for me if I remember correctly. Hmm, I missed that you'd backed off prplhz when I made my post back there. I think that makes Ace my clear preference to die. ##Vote: Ace | ||
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Ball is kinda in your court, Palmar. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:02 Palmar wrote: My only problem with Ace is that he does this silly trap thing as town too, I remember arguing for a long time with him when he created one of those stupid traps, I ignored it and explained why and how I was town, and somehow I had fallen into his trap. Obviously we were both town. Anyway I do agree Ace spent a lot of time this game obsessing about stuff I found irrelevant or stupid. But again, the no-hammer on WoS is still bothering me. @marv you've just said a few things that I did not expect you to say, thus I can't help but feel there is a chance something is off. But maybe there isn't something off, and reducing the pool would be quite helpful. I'll talk more later. Let me just turn this back around on you, and you maybe can understand why it's stupid. One of the things you found off was the bugs/policy lynch/serious thing. Fine, we've talked about this. The other part you found off was the fact that like a few pages in to Day 1 I wasn't reading you as strongly town. Look at this situation, where I've given you a fuckload more material to work with than you had me by that stage, and you're still wishy washy on my alignment. That is *way* more "off", if you want to call it so, than me not being strong town on you during the beginning of the game. Flip it around and see things from my point of view. The difference is, I'm not pursuing you for it like a nonce, although I could be. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:03 sciberbia wrote: I'm confused by your saying that I am "monumentally inconsistent and confusing" but not saying I'm scum for it. Do you think I'm being monumentally inconsistent and confusing but that I'm town? This wasn't really a specific bitch at you at all, actually. It was more confusion that I was being pushed for pushing the exact 2 reads that Palmar was pushing, and yet magically somehow I'm in trouble for it and he's not. But never mind, that isn't important at all. Anyway, it's not that I think more townie of Palmar for pushing me, but I was already thinking town on Palmar due to the rest of his filter, and I was already slightly worried about you due to the rest of your filter. Also, you've seen me play quite a bit and I know you think I'm an asset to town. As far as Palmar is concerned, I'm just some guy who beat him as scum by surviving to the end of the game. So when I see you both pushing my lynch and I don't see a lot of great reasoning for it, it reflects worse on you than it does on Palmar. Ok, this helps me understand your perspective, and it makes sense. OK. But Palmar clearly thinks both yourself and Oats might be scum, and you have a townread on Palmar. I still think the "you should be able to see Oats is town" is a bad scumtell on me or anyone else for that matter. Mafia isn't an easy game. For what it's worth, I'm also feeling better about Oats recently. He seems to be trying to move the thread forward now, and he is consistent in his defense of you and eagerness to sheep you. Can you point me to one of his scum games? I couldn't find any. Scum in LIX, I was smurfing as FiveTouch if you want to check my filter and how early I caught him. My first post I believe. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:07 WaveofShadow wrote: Marv why have you expressed such willingness to sheep Tunkeg without analysis of his case on me? I'm curious. Reading the thread is a useful skill. The first quote came after Tunkeg's case which came *after* I had laid my votes on you with my reasons. So it was saying I agree with some banter Second post, if you would read the post I made within the last twenty minutes, it should be kinda obvious and I have no idea why you're asking me this question when it's on the last page of the thread why I could kill you. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:16 WaveofShadow wrote: No it's your constant buddy-buddying of Tunkeg that gets at me, and yet no one's had a look at him. I'm pretty sure he's town but if this Ace train is actually a-rollin' all the way to the finish line it gives me time to look into him. Well, there isn't really a fancy explanation for this, but Tunkeg and I have had a ..... fractious, shall we say, history. I came into this game not wanting to have a shitfest with him (I believe I alluded to this before the game started) like I usually do, so I'm being nicer with him than I'd normally be with people within a game. Plus his push is good, so that helps. | ||
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On April 08 2013 05:33 WaveofShadow wrote: Your 'creepy feeling' amounts to nothing. Can you explain to me how my sheeping of an apparent joke vote from marv onto Ace with admittedly weak reasoning (which I STILL DO stand by, btw) is scummy on its own? People sheep all the time in this game; hell Oats ASKS people to sheep him every game. The reason I was worried about appearing scummy for removing my vote is because the simple fact that my vote was still ON Ace at that point in time appeared scummy and there was no point in time at which removing it would have been 'ok' in the eyes of town. The thing is, as a general rule townies worry about this less than scummers. If a townie doesn't want his vote on someone, usually they just take it off because that's how they feel. | ||
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General rules are general rules, they might not always be right, but generally scummers tend to be more worried about how they appear to the thread than townies do. That's simply fact. | ||
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Oki doki. | ||
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I'll take a better look at Axle since you ask nicely. And by the way, there's *always* mafia motivation in slinging shit at strong townies. More to the point, there's no point in him flinging shit at Palmar like that if he's town. | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:44 sciberbia wrote: Don't worry marv I know you love your scib heuristic and I haven't fucked off. Just been thinking about you, and Ace, and Axle, and reading. I'll be back in like 20-25 minutes. See my previous post and tell me what you see in Ace's play that is mafia motivated, and what you see in Axle that makes you think town. Already talked about Ace, not gonna repeat tbh. | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:47 DarthPunk wrote: Ace had suspicions upon you before I did. So either quit lying or read the thread. maybe he did, but only passive little attacks. He only truly attacked me and voted for me after you started sustaining an attack on me. Go read the thread yourself, you little shit. | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:56 DarthPunk wrote: So he only attacked you after me by your definition of attack? But you didn't say at all that you were applying your own definition as to what constitutes a real attack. you stated that he hadn't until I did. Which is not true. And doing so at all, even a little, totally changes the value of that argument. No, actually it completely adds to the argument. Ace was happy to just ping silly little attacks at me, but would never take it anywhere. Then you come in with an attack on me, and suddenly Ace is happy to go on a full frontal attack on me, safe behind you. Same deal with Palmar, in numerous posts he flings suspicion at him but will never outright attack him. Oh by the way, let me destroy your Oats case quickly and easily: On March 26 2013 23:48 Oatsmaster wrote: *Insert dramatic music* I 180. (so scummy bla bla bla) SnB is a soft town read because after rereading and thinking about it, it seems like he is trying to push prp into posting productively and not spammily, as opposed to actually wanting to lynch him. Therefore my suspicions on him were unwarrented. Insert is soft scum because he seems to act like an authority on DI's meta with his case, but then states that he is not familiar with DI's opening town meta. He also states that which means that he ignored some to make the scum favored argument. Your turn ray. On March 27 2013 22:43 Oatsmaster wrote: I dont know. Hmm. Like nisani is scummy, but there are players that are scummy as town too. SO IM WISHYWASHY AS FUCK AND CANT MAKE A DECISION. Or find scum. Hmm. I kinda want Palmar to die though. Oh look, Oats with "inherent guilt" or whatever you babbled about. Except he was town. It means nothing. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:00 DarthPunk wrote: (As an aside, the name of this game is quite appropriate. I love it. LOL) As an also friendly aside, I may be playing up to this a little. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:17 AxleGreaser wrote: I have seen this post. I am comfortable with my vote where it is on WoS. I will be here for bit then nap then come back. You'd rather no-lynch than kill Ace? That's what you're saying, right? | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:16 DarthPunk wrote: I would say that I was probably wrong on those two posts. He is still sheeping, useless and without a good case to his name. I would agree. But that's town Oats for you. And it's why I basically have to defend him in every game we play together (unless he's mafia, naturally. Or unless I'm mafia and let him die to the lynch. The one time we played together where he was town and I wasn't town, he got lynched because I wasn't there to protect him) | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Our last games; Red Team - both town, protected him hard for the first 2 days until I got down to him as elimination (he was town and there was one less mafia than we all thought) Personality 2 - both town, I declared him town and protected him Duel Mafia - both town, I protected him while I was alive Themed Mafia - Oats town, marv mafia; Oats got lynched Day 1 without my protection LIX - marv town, Oats mafia, Oats got caught by marv super early. I've always read his alignment correctly, and this game I'm protecting him again because I think strongly that he's town | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:22 Ace wrote: just skimmed and see I'm on the lynch wagon. 2 things quickly: @WoS - in The Game I got lynched 6 hours before deadline when I was asleep Also I was watching basketball so no time to read the thread. For the people voting for me, can you point out exactly what I need to respond to to convince you of my innocence? I'm not 100% sure what's going on here since I thought I made everything I did explicitly clear but I'll try again. Just give me some good reasons why I'm mafia, I'd like that much more. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:26 DarthPunk wrote: Well. I dislike players like that in general. You can dislike them all you want, doesn't mean you should lynch them. | ||
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Or maybe that's a terrible reason to lynch someone and we should try to lynch mafia instead? | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: Can you point out who do you want to lynch and why? If it's still Oats can you point out why "being a distraction" is good enough reason to lynch someone? Why not lynch mafia instead? Why did you say sciberbia was a really bad lynch at the time he was getting votes and right after you say "he is 3rd lynch condidate today"? He was talking about me, I had this same confusion, if you'd been reading the thread you would have noticed this :/ | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:29 DarthPunk wrote: We should lynch lurky scummy axle. His town games are known for large amounts of activity. He has not been active this game despite saying he had altered his schedule for mafia. Also. Terrible votes. What's up with that? oh NOW you cite meta ^_^ | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:33 DarthPunk wrote: I said meta wasn't a good enough excuse for your scummy behavior, and I quite clearly said i was bad at reading you, specifically, with meta. An activity thing like this is so simple and time and time again it has been tested and found true. Purely on activity you should be reading me as pretty damn likely town, then you don't have to answer this. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:35 DarthPunk wrote: These are the kind of things by which great town reads are born. I prefer them to "oh oats is always so scummy and useless that I have to hold his hand every game or he will get mislynched." I suppose you'd rather I let him get mislynched then? | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:37 DarthPunk wrote: But I will respond with Z-Boson lovefest game anyway. You mean by FAR my most active game of mafia ever, where I only had just over 5 pages of filter at the end of Day 1, and I have 10 here? Cool story bro. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:39 DarthPunk wrote: Yep and then maybe he would learn the most important part of playing town. To establish your townieness and foster a pro-town environment. He does establish his townieness, if I can get it 100% then so can other people. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:41 DarthPunk wrote: this is about double the length of a standard day one. Oh. Look at that. I don't know how you read 22 hours longer as double the length, plus there are 4 less players. Your heuristic is shit. You call activity a tried and true metric, but if you're going by activity alone I'm monumentally likely to be town. | ||
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I said I'm wrong less than DP and that's about all I can remember. Can you provide examples please, Ace? | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:52 DarthPunk wrote: That is like the least important part of the entire post. Just lynch axle please. It's important if he's just bullshitting out of thin air. You need to understand this. Lynch deadline is 3 hours away. | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:54 marvellosity wrote: It's important if he's just bullshitting out of thin air. You need to understand this. Lynch deadline is 3 hours away. Also how the fuck is talking about the reads of the leading lynch candidate not important? | ||
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On April 08 2013 07:59 Ace wrote: you're right marv, that's just me being silly and seeing something that isn't there. My bad. :/ Why are you playing nicey-nicey with me when you've been antagonising me all game? I don't get it :< | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:41 sciberbia wrote: marv why are you leaning town on axle? Do you not find any of these points concerning:
Here's what I jotted down while I was going through axle's filter: + Show Spoiler + Axle notes: On April 05 2013 13:49 AxleGreaser wrote: @Palmar I am curious. I don't yet have any meta on you apart from memory... Can you direct me to any game in which you ##FOS a player? Id like to see under what conditions you normally do that? ##Fos Palmar I like this. Palmar was actually joking and he does never FoS. Judging by his comments about coming pre-armed into Noir, I think Axle knows this and has never seen him do this. It's an interesting thought and one I like. On April 07 2013 00:40 AxleGreaser wrote: Even though I think it was Marv that suggested it, I am not sure why WoS being scum would make you scum. It could do, but that is a preflip association case. My problem is even if WoS is town, scum know who is town and know they can defend them for the towny cred if they get flipped. ##vote Sciberbia I don't understand this vote on sciberbia. Where did it come from? I don't see the reasoning. On April 07 2013 00:58 AxleGreaser wrote: Yeah sorry, it was clear in my head, just not the thread. + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 00:40 AxleGreaser wrote: Even though I think it was Marv that suggested it, I am not sure why WoS being scum would make you scum. It could do, but that is a preflip association case. My problem is even if WoS is town, scum know who is town and know they can defend them for the towny cred if they get flipped. ##vote Sciberbia back here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18217152 I asked scrib some questions about how he viewed WoS and why scrib interpreted certain posts in certain ways. Specifically i was concerned that Scrib had been just assuming WoS was town for some reason, and not wondering why WoS had been posting stuff or wondering what WoS had been thinking was good reason for posting stuff. To me there appeared to be a significant lack of suspicion of WoS intentions. This latest post, shows a number of reasons that scrib thinks WoS is town, to me none of them are consistent with a townie mindset or level of suspicion. We are not yet at Hammer time, I don't intend to make hammer case. I feel it deserves another vote. And yet these reasons actually make plenty of sense. Carrying on through page 1 of Axle's filter, he seems to find WoS suspicious for his actions, but apparently sciberbia more suspicious for his reaction to WoS's actions. The thing is, he didn't hammer WoS when he had the chance. It was L-1 and he could have voted for him. Why didn't he? On April 07 2013 10:43 AxleGreaser wrote: Some people determine alignment by ......... , I ask questions an listen to answers or the lack of them. How are you trying to determine alignment? I like this for reasons I can't put my finger on. On April 07 2013 13:52 AxleGreaser wrote: That is fine, so when you did "With every post I analyze I look at look at possible townie and mafia intentions behind it." analyse WoS's post, what possible townie intention did you see behind it? Did the townie intention you saw to that post not include WoS (at the very least) recently deciding on whether or not to "think" about Lynching Rayn, but had come down so nearly on the "not yet, do something else now side" that he sought a second opinion? If I had been recently thinking (should I / shouldn't I) pursue Rayn as scum(due to the posting style), and I got asked "Was there any reason you thought we should lynch a headless chook?" Then as WoS I could have, and would have, answered the question, I would also probably indicate that words had just been seemingly put in my mouth and that while i had recently been onsidering that option... blah blah.... That was the reason I believe I also provided my answer to the question. That the presence of the(an) answer did not even trigger recognition (easier than recall [www.ehow.com/info_7754397_recall-vs-recognition.html ] ) memory of "Oh yeah I was just thinking that" indicates to me he quite probably had not recently considered how Lynchworthy posting like that was. He had thus handed me what he considered to be an anchor. I think this topic is about done. I believe I understand why you said pretty much all of what you did. Doesnt make you town, probably not my best Lynch though... for now... ##unvote Sciberbia Backs off sciberbia in what seems to be a reasonable way. He drops his pursuit of sciberbia and starts to pursue WoS. This seems consistent with how he earlier viewed WoS, as suspicious with his behaviour. Generally speaking Axle is quite focused in his targets as town, in Noir he seemed to focus in hard on Hopeless despite other things being discussed in the thread. | ||
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hey, I set you up for that one bitch <3 | ||
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On April 08 2013 08:22 raynpelikoneet wrote: Does anyone else think marv's notes on Axle are kinda... terrible? Oh I'm sorry. I forgot how much of a shining beacon of helpfulness you'd been this game. Accept my sincere apologies for creating substandard notes. Honestly, I prostrate myself before you. You are a scumhunter extraordinaire and your posts like "lol lynch him his filter lol" should be a lesson in how to play mafia. | ||
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Palmar - when you're back. Please give me your thoughts on Ace since he came back to the thread tonight. | ||
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When Ace is getting attacked as town he tells people to go fuck themselves and shit like that. Here's he's specifically showing the thread exactly what they want to see. Vote Ace. | ||
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How does that sound? | ||
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that's because i think Ace has a 10x chance of flipping mafia than Axle. | ||
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On April 08 2013 08:59 DarthPunk wrote: You still haven't consolidated despite claiming to be willing to do so. You should consolidate before you tell other people to :/ he has consolidated, he's voting for the best candidate. | ||
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WaveofShadow - pushed by Axle Ace prplhz DarthPunk Oatsmaster Tunkeg Palmar marvellosity AxleGreaser raynpelikoneet sciberbia - looks good for Axle lynch. That's about it. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:34 Palmar wrote: very good job guys. @reyn I think it's silly to think this makes marv look worse, in fact I think the fact he didn't bus in the last minute switching (he must've known that when I started yelling at people to lynch Axle that it would end with Axle getting lynched) makes marv look considerably better. I wonder what this means, maybe Ace and reyn are the two remaining scum? It's Ace and one of Tunkeg/rayn. Choose your poison. | ||
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Obviously one mafia is one mafia, but meh. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Wow if it actually turns out like this I'ma be fairly happy with my performance this game for once. What is this specific reasoning for Tunkeg being included? Little specific reasoning other than elimination. All the rest I have pretty strong townreads on for their play (say iamp, Palmar, Oats). Tunkeg looks ok for his WoS push ( ) but he declined to do anything else, he refused to vote for Ace, and he disappeared.Basically I have a mafiaread on Ace and there are good reasons for literally everyone else to be town other than Tunkeg and rayn. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:40 DarthPunk wrote: In fact you stated axle was probably town correct? I thought he might be town and my filter-read of him left me not wanting to lynch him today, because Ace was by far the better lynch. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:42 Palmar wrote: are you reading this conversation rayn? Marv is so butthurt that he didn't help lynch scum that he's yelling BUT I WAS RIGHT TOO BUT I WAS RIGHT TOO. It's hilarious and it makes marv town. go away | ||
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but still, fuck you. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:43 WaveofShadow wrote: Who's 'people?' You really worry about what Rayn thinks, with his expert analysis? I only worry about lynching the right people. And telling people they're bad. But mainly lynching the right people. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:46 DarthPunk wrote: It would be fun to lynch ace just to see marv be wrong again. 87% guarantee I'm not wrong. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:48 Palmar wrote: should we discuss how to use roles this game? like should medics maybe hold off night 1 in case of a lightning rod or something. I'm terrible at role-things. Medics should 100% protect, because lightning rod is a town role, so medic WILL protect a townie. Roles like vigi should probably hold their shot because of the possibility of lightning rod; after tonight it should hoepfully be more obvious whether one exists. DTs and the like should be wary of their results. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: What i am trying to say is that marv softly defended a confirmed scum with reasons that were absolutely crap. It may be that Ace is scum too, but that doesn't change the fact marv's notes on Axle were really really bad and i can't understand how anyone who is town could see Axle's behaviour that way. All it means is I couldn't find good reasons to lynch Axle when Ace was there ready to be lynched. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:49 Palmar wrote: didn't read marv's notes. linkypls? er, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168¤tpage=56#1116 | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:51 DarthPunk wrote: and also a completely arbitrary number pulled out of his arse 0_o Actually I went through some pretty tough calculations to arrive at that figure. watch your mouth boy. | ||
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On April 08 2013 09:53 DarthPunk wrote: terrible. LOL. I presume you're talking about your hairstyle. Yeah, i saw your skype pic. What do you have to say now? | ||
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Vigilantes - DO NOT SHOOT. risk of lightning rod. Medics - PROTECT PALMAR. Do NOT wifom yourself out of this. You either protect Palmar, or if there's a lightning rod, you protect a townie. Everyone else - use your best discretion. I can't understand the game at all if it's not how I presented it earlier with my coloured list post. | ||
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On April 08 2013 11:12 prplhz wrote: i'm not really sold on wos being town you think axle pushed him consistently for no reason? | ||
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On April 08 2013 20:45 DarthPunk wrote: So. I am confirmed town as the guy who started the switch onto axle? along with sciberbia correct? except that is not what marv said at all. I suggest if you are going to sheep something you at least try to read what it is exactly. I am not going to sheep marv. Not sheeping marv caused me to push a wagon on a scum, whose posts marv liked, day one. I feel pretty good about not sheeping marv actually. Just because you pushed mafia doesn't mean I wasn't pushing mafia, remember that. | ||
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On April 08 2013 20:56 DarthPunk wrote: No but I pushed a mafia that wouldn't have pushed if I had blindly sheeped you, and I still think ace is town. I am more than capable of catching mafia on my own. SO I have no idea why in the fuck oats would tell me to sheep you. Where do you disagree with my list? | ||
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On April 08 2013 21:33 DarthPunk wrote: because i don't want to give scum the lay of the land so they can make an optimal night kill. It isn't hard to understand. It is hard to understand, because it's really silly. Mafia have an abundance of decent targets to shoot at, and stunting discussion for 24 hours for some mythical night-hit reason doesn't make sense. | ||
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If you remember Red Team, prplhz made an atrocious vote on me on Day 2 for no reason at all. Second half of day 1 he seemed pretty interested in the game, he looks fine I think. You could look at you instead, you blabber on about wanting to kill Ace and then switch to Axle for little reasoning. Why does prplhz look bad and you look fine then? | ||
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On April 08 2013 04:40 Tunkeg wrote: So anyone here? Or is everyone content with a no-lynch? Because if you are, I will say fuck it, and go to bed. If not I will stick around abit longer. On April 08 2013 04:50 Tunkeg wrote: Palmar. Do you prefer a WoS lynch over a no-lynch? Seems to clearly not want a no-lynch. On April 08 2013 06:07 Tunkeg wrote: yeah yeah, looks like my push on WoS is going nowhere. I am off to bed. Good luck and good night... His lynch isn't gaining traction so he leaves, leaving his vote uselessly parked on WoS, basically saying "i'm happy with a no-lynch". | ||
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On April 08 2013 21:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: Because i actually thought Ace's responses to me and other players were good enough. I do not think you or Palmar either look very townie at all. You both were opposing the Axle lynch at first (i know this does not mean Ace is town and you are 100% wrong) but it does not definitely make you look more townie. Hell Palmar even said he wanted to lynch Ace/sciberbia and Axle is a very bad lynch, and some time later he just forgot why Axle looked good and voted for him "just to kill someone". This is why in my opinion you look very bad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168¤tpage=58#1146 Your reasons for Axle not being mafia (of whatever you are trying to say there, i don't even get it) are really horrible. His voting behaviour regarding scib/WoS was not a townie behaviour, and you quote some random posts that "you like" with no further explanations. I don't care if i look worse or better than anyone. And you still failed to explain why prplhz looks better than me. I don't like Tunkeg/prplhz either. Both Palmar and iamp think I look clearly town, they can't both be my scumbuddies, right? ^^ What you think of that Tunkeg stuff I just posted? Palmar is right, btw, if I were mafia I'd never have made myself look bad over the Axle lynch. It's exactly the same thing that happened to me in Fruity, I looked really bad for opposing a yamato lynch Day 1 who flipped mafia, because I was pushing Vivax (mafia) instead. Shit happens. | ||
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On April 08 2013 21:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't care if i look worse or better than anyone. And you still failed to explain why prplhz looks better than me. I don't like Tunkeg/prplhz either. Some of this is that I'm much more familiar with prplhz's play than I am yours, so I can simply read him better. Hopefully. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:49 DarthPunk wrote: Like we don't have nigh infinite length days...... Length of days is irrelevant, flow of the thread is relevant. Look at the night-talkless Noir to see what I'm talking about. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote: That's just WIFOM. If you are mafia this is just what you were supposed to do if Palmar is town. You just made a good friend who can't possibly think you would do that as mafia because of meta and shit. It's not just WIFOM, because the alternative is that I make myself look good by calling Axle probably mafia and hammering him like the rest, then we wouldn't have to have this conversation at all. That was my alternative if I'm mafia. That's not WIFOM, that's analysing a specific player and the actions he's likely to take, which is what the game's all about. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:58 raynpelikoneet wrote: How is it a good alternative when you have called him not-likely-to-be mafia before and he hasn't posted since then? Because scib gave me an out by asking me to look at Axle in more detail. One that in my great wisdom as a potential scummer I decided to take by... looking at his filter and deciding I still wanted to lynch Ace despite the fact that the Axle wagon was heading towards the lynch, and so I actively decided to make myself look bad instead. That's the scenario we're playing with here and it's silly. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:47 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think Tunkeg flip-flopped about no-lynch. His last comment could be also seen as frustration as his lynch was not going through. And i think he was pushing his lynch, people just didn't listen (many people were suspicious of WoS at that time and WoS was a leading candidate before people started voting for Ace). I don't know what that makes him. What i do not like is that he brought the no-lynch thing up in the first place, didn't so anything after that, and before that all he did was going after WoS. You didn't really understand what I was getting at with what I posted because I don't really know what you're talking about here. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:13 raynpelikoneet wrote: So you are saying he first was against no-lynch and then was okay with it when a couple of people switched to Ace? He had his vote on WoS who was another candidate at that time. Is his only option to switch to Ace? He already did push WoS lynch and then he went away. I don't think that's necessarily mafia behaviour. He could have genuinely gotten frustrated about his lynch gaining no more support, had no other candidate and just left his vote on the other candidate at that time. Why do you think he would say that last quote if he was mafia? Why not just leave and say nothing? It amounts to the same thing? And yes, that is basically what I'm saying. He was happy to push WoS at Palmar on the basis that a WoS lynch was better than a no-lynch. But then when WoS looked like he wasn't getting lynched, he didn't bother to stick around to find a good alternative, he just buggered off. He had no interest in finding a good alternative lynch at all. Convenient to leave your vote on someone who isn't getting lynched when you know the deadline is later that night. | ||
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If you really want to go into it, the Ace-being-mafia theory supports what I'm saying about Tunkeg, because Tunkeg's alternative for consolidation at the time he left the thread was....... Ace. Probably best to go "oh no, my lynch has failed, woe is me!" and bugger off, ya? | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:26 DarthPunk wrote: Do you actually believe ace wouldn't tell him to bus at that point? Ace avoided the lynch. So, no. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why not try to push WoS harder? His reasons were solid enough to make a lot of people think WoS might be scum in the first place. He pushed WoS plenty hard, but WoS was off the table. This is pretty clear from the thread. Use the # button on his final post before he went to bed, and scroll back a page or two. Palmar and I had recently voted for Ace, he was clearly a hot topic, but Tunkeg didn't see fit to even mention Ace. | ||
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er... I mean, obviously I believe that, because Ace didn't get lynched. Axle wasn't even really on the cards at that stage. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:31 DarthPunk wrote: If he was avoiding the lynch then that would be an even better time to be bussed. When you don't get lynched. 0_o Obviously the chances of Ace being lynched go up markedly with each person who votes for him. Don't be silly. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:34 DarthPunk wrote: It's not silly. That is just good scum play. I doubt that a good scum player like ace would let his buddy do something so scummy as that. Also quit with the pre flip associations. It's bad. rayn asked me a specific question relating to the likely alignments of Tunkeg and Ace in connection with each other. So yes I'll talk about it when I'm asked about it. It's terrible scumplay because if Tunkeg votes for Ace then the chances Ace gets lynched go up quite a lot, and obviously an Ace-mafia doesn't want to get lynched. What you're talking about is retarded-bus-your-partner-for-no-reason scumplay. | ||
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Wait, what? ;; ^^ What do you make of Tunkeg, sir? | ||
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prplhz :< Saw it as soon as I posted but can't fucking edit. Sad times. | ||
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On April 09 2013 00:29 Oatsmaster wrote: l2english So its an association thing basically? Like if Ace flips/Tunkeg flips red, they are SCUMBUDDIES? I just see a whole lotta repeating, "He said he didnt want a nolynch but he didnt care about who he lynched" Right, and that's the nub of it. The connection stuff isn't very relevant, they just happen to be the 2 people I think are mafia. | ||
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On April 08 2013 06:07 Tunkeg wrote: yeah yeah, looks like my push on WoS is going nowhere. I am off to bed. Good luck and good night... | ||
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also *you're just mad, not you just mad | ||
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gg guys. gl. | ||
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Less sorry about Ace because it didn't matter well played dp/sci/iamp etc. | ||
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this all over. i played more restrained last game in Red Team, but cmon, the name's Ego mafia. | ||
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On April 11 2013 09:14 Ace wrote: wish you lived to Day 2 - I had an army of gifs ready for you pretty sad I missed that tbh ^^ | ||
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On April 11 2013 17:55 Palmar wrote: hey at least I voted scum 2/3 days, and to be honest killing you was fun enough to make it worth it. Sure I may have been off a lot, but at least I'm not marv. at least I actually caught one, dear | ||
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On April 11 2013 20:18 Oatsmaster wrote: The point of this is that our team had very little thread influence(Not activity based, like skill based), like marv HAD to push wrong lynches for us to win. All of us cant spearhead a lynch, we need someone to take our ideas and kill dudes with it. Which takes a lot of power out scum's hands again, which I didnt like. yeah oats is completely right here. 3 mafia were dead by the middle of day 3. not even because the mafia themselves individually played badly or anything, but none of them have any thread impact to control things. Despite mistakes from townies like me and Palmar (wos/sci early, ace/oats) it didn't even matter one bit because there were lots of other townies with good ideas. This game shows precisely why teams need to be balanced, not the opposite, DP. | ||
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On April 11 2013 20:35 sciberbia wrote: I'm strongly in favor of true RNG. I don't think you can argue that scum played as well as town in this game. Good scumplay is defined per the win condition as not dying. All 3 scum died. It's not like it's not within their power to not die. If they had all played the towniest games of their lives they would surely have won. Not saying it's easy but I'm saying the better team won. Mafia is a team game. As long as the setup is such that the better team will usually win that is fair in my book. In most team games you can make fair teams for every game but a key feature of mafia is that knowing who is on your team ruins the game. I think it takes away a lot of the spirit of the game if marv knows going in that either palmar or ace must be scum. edit: another reason I don't like it is that it puts newer players at a completely unfair disadvantage. All the vets know what teams would be considered balanced but newer players may not. It also unfairly advantages players who personally know the host and what he would be likely to do. imo it is much more fun to try to figure out whether someone is scum by analyzing their filter and interactions with other players than playing guess-what-the-host-thought-would-be-fun. Just a terrible argument all round really. Extreme example: you put 6 chess grandmasters against 6 amateurs. Chess is a game of complete information, so as long as each team has 3 whites and 3 blacks, the match is completely balanced. But of course it isn't, because experience and ability plays a large factor, and the grandmasters will win every time. Much the same in this particular setup; I bet if you ran a simulation of this game 100 times, this town team would at least 80% of the time. Town ran over mafia despite Palmar and I pushing 2 wrong lynches day 1 and despite the fact i was hard defending a mafia. Almost things couldn't have gone worse for town this game and yet it was still totally one-sided. I'm sure this game was "fun" for town with its totally RNG element, but realistically mafia didn't really have a chance. It's a simple fact that mafia teams need people with thread impact. | ||
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no it doesn't. | ||
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This might sound like I'm bashing on the skill of the mafia but it's not how it's meant to come across. None of the people on the mafia-team have a history of large thread impact in a game and that's just a fact. This game was always going to be a town win. If you're happy for a game to be one-sided for the sake of some silly RNG concept, then fine, but you'll get games where mafia basically can't win like this one. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:11 sciberbia wrote: you're chess example is correct in principle but it's obviously an exaggeration. Most rng's will be somwhat fair. This one just happened to be particularly bad for scum and that is unfortunate but imo it is still better than the alternative. If you ran a simulation for a penant game between the braves and the marlins the braves would probably win 80 percent of the time AND everyone knows that going in but for any player it is nearly as exciting as if the teams were balanced. Playing for the upset is fun. Most RNGs will skew abilities far more than a balanced team. By definition practically, RNG will lead to much larger disparities in ability between two teams. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:16 Dandel Ion wrote: RNG es #1. And if the game was normal deadline lynches, I'd argue the scumteam would have been mighty fine. You're all overexaggerating the people-balance thing, and none of the "vets" had that big of an impact or "thread influence" or whatever. It was a solid all-around town performance, and town happened to pick up bigtime after 48 hours of day1 were over. ...precisely, it was a solid town performance because town was so stacked and *mafia* didn't have the thread influence, which is completely the point. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:19 wherebugsgo wrote: that's mafia's fault, not the fault of the host or the player distribution. People have certain abilities and strengths, it's pointless saying it's the fault of the players for not having it when they were already known to not have it. Stupid. | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:24 wherebugsgo wrote: So no one gets better at the game? So you should just GG out at the beginning of the game if you're scum and you even think your team is inferior? What a fucking defeatist attitude. That's not what I said, way to know how to read! | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:26 wherebugsgo wrote: You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it. What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games. Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based. You can't tell who's a good player and who's not so good? Seriously? Are you unable to assess players' strengths depending on the numerous games you've seen from them? Are you that unaware? | ||
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On April 11 2013 21:36 wherebugsgo wrote: this times 1 million. What happens when two new players come along and you balance their team of 3 players by putting a vet like Ace on that team to balance it, but those two new players turn out to be really good at scum? What happens when you have a game with 6 vets, but only one of them is actually good at scum? Do you condemn that guy to playing on scum? What happens when every host thinks the same way you do? That guy will end up playing nothing but scum. You're taking a way simplistic view when it should be obvious that it's not one I advocate. Can you give me a single example of the Ace + 2 newbs playing amazing scumgames happening? I bet you can't. There are monumentally few players who take to mafia like a fish to water. Since I've been playing, I can think of me, Acro, probably DP too - and that's about it. Tunkeg has never played mafia before and Axle has played mafia once. The funny thing about this game is that Oats *did* play much better than he played as mafia before, so he got caught properly day 3 instead of day 1. Teams shouldn't be handpicked with massive scrutiny and eye to detail, but if you put 3 mafia players with 3 scumgames between them and no previously indicated ability as mafia together, then you get a game like this. That's just how it is. | ||
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While mafia as a game is more volatile than most, generally speaking experience and learning plays a massive aspect as it does in almost any game. For example I don't understand why Tunkeg would be offended at the suggestion of playing with a vet mafia; Tunkeg has never played mafia before, so reasonably speaking it's silly to expect he'll be as good as someone who's played mafia multiple times. | ||
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... you're an idiot. I already referenced the very few players who take to mafia as an exception, and you're obviously one of them. | ||
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On April 11 2013 22:10 sciberbia wrote: marv i agree. While as people have said it is very hard to measure skill in mafia, I agree that this town could reasonably have been expected to outplay this scumteam. I just dont think that is a big problem. I think the game was still fun for everyone. I think scum, while underdogs, had a legitamate chance at pulling a nice upset. Even with this extreme disparity in 'balance' I,think this game was fun as hell and fair in that the team that played better won the game. I can see how it would be cool if you always had a 50 percent chance to win but imo balancing is bad for a number of reasons as we have been discussing that make the game less fun and less fair. So this is imo the lesser of two evils and imo this game was a success. It seems that some people such as yourself and oats enjoy a game less if you know you are an underdog at the start. I am not one of those people. I think you should just take it as a challenge. I think most people are like that. You know.. like how a bad team in sports still tries their damndest to beat their rivals in a big game. You're misunderstanding me. Because naturally I consider whatever team I'm on to be the favourite Games that I win where the game is stacked in my favour are less fun/gratifying than games that are 'balanced'. That's the perspective I have here. | ||
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On April 11 2013 22:20 wherebugsgo wrote: How do you balance 9 player games? How do you balance games with uneven numbers of vets? How do you balance games in which you have lots of people who are good at X alignment but bad at Y? How do you balance games with a small number of vets and lots of newbies? There have been games in which vets have become free scum lynches simply because of balance reasons. In these types of games vets are unlikely to shoot other vets, even if they aren't necessarily good all the time, because the host is known to balance the setups. If they do shoot the vets, they become a lynch. If they don't, they will sometimes get lynched anyway because the town focuses on them. Think about it; if there are 5 vets in a game and you know the host balances, on day 2 if any of them die you can lynch into the remaining players and increase your chance of lynching scum incredibly. e: my point with this is that in these games where the host balances the game, I find that the balance discussion pulls away from the aim of the game. This is pretty unfortunate given that in these situations, balance discussion is often VERY productive. I myself have used it, but I don't think that it is good for the game because it doesn't actually teach you anything about how to find scum, only how to game the setup. The problem with these supposed "stacked" games lies with attitude and not actual skill differential IMO. Because of the way reputation and expectation works on this forum, people expect certain things based on really stupid assumptions when in reality they are often in control of their own fate. you're being too picky again. This game if I look at the playerlist, a valuable addition to mafia would have been any of Palmar, Ace, marv, DarthPunk, sciberbia, rayn, all players who have various abilities as scum. That's half the players. And this isn't even a "vet" issue per se, because taking this game still, Palmar/marv/Ace (traditional 'vets') could all have been town and the game would have been much better balanced, and you still wouldn't be able to lynch on balance. | ||
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dunno what you're trying to say tbh. | ||
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On April 11 2013 22:37 wherebugsgo wrote: you don't know what I'm trying to say probably because you've come to a results-based conclusion. You're incapable of seeing an alternate situation because you're basing your conclusion on the results of the game. Surprising that, isn't it. My belief is that a team I view as pretty one-sided would destroy the other team, the result supports my beliefs... yeah. Seems pretty reasonable to me. This game IS the alternate situation, and this game shows how the alternate situation pans out. | ||
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On April 11 2013 23:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: The evidence against Oats was overwhelming and i think marv would have noticed it too. Palmar did a great job on D3 requesting a re-look on WoS/scib wagons and what happened at that time. I think scum made some mistakes, not that they did play bad. I found it very fishy that Axle did not vote for WoS earlier when there was same amount of evidence against him than when he did vote. Tunkeg's approach to N2 basically gave him out. Oats played pretty well, had he done something productive on D3 and not waited for people to show up (why would you want to wait as the lynch candidates were in thread?) it would have been harder to catch him. Pretty much yeah. By the time I died at the end of N1 I had everyone as town to some extent, excluding Ace/Tunkeg. So obviously when Ace flips town I would need to reassess. There are certain players who I found it practically impossible to be mafia: iamp/DP/sciberbia/WoS Which leads me to having to look harder at: rayn/prplhz/Oats, so yeah. Kinda inevitable. You nailed Oats pretty nicely day 3 there rayn. | ||
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On April 11 2013 23:16 GMarshal wrote: Anyway, blaming the "balance" of rnged rolls seems like a waste of time, its better to focus on lessons learned so that next time that a "weak" mafia team rolls out they know what to do. So, what could the mafia team have done better to establish thread presence? How could they have avoided the disastrous day 1 hammer (if at all)? What was the proper form of damage control post fact? Well, that's the magic isn't it. If you can tell me how players who regularly have low thread impact can all of a sudden have high thread impact, I'm all ears. Mafia will suddenly become a super ez game for everyone | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote: To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point. Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote: So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game... | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:34 DarthPunk wrote: You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune. Me reading him as town in the first cycle isn't dancing to his tune. He never convinced me of anything I wouldn't have believed otherwise in relation to everyone else, which is what that is. | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: I understand and i agree that's a decent assumption to make for you. Just remember it's all based on meat and what do you think of other players (like your Oats read this game, and remember what happened in Redwith your read on me when you saw the results of Newbie Mafia XXXIX). yes, but i was also looking for a non-existent 4th mafia | ||
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On April 12 2013 00:38 DarthPunk wrote: If you hard defend scum and then defend another scum in order to form a wagon on town with the first scum then he is doing a pretty good job IMO. ? what oats did was irrelevant to me pushing Ace. what are you on about? | ||
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So what's your overall record now, DP? | ||
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what game did I lynch you in? | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah then your record is very impressive. What i mean is even if you got a record of 100-0 it doesn't really mean anything if you are lynched in 80% of the games. And then you are clearly doing something wrong. After all this is a game where not only what you say matters, but who are the people analyzing what you are saying and do they believe you. If nobody believes you it doesn't matter how right you are and you are doing something wrong. :D Yeah, stats in mafia are a very interesting thing, for reasons you mention and others. I've played 40 (!) games here and been lynched once as town and twice as mafia. | ||
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Oh, well then. I was under retarded pressure all day, my pushes in those situations are always diabolical. Collateral damage babe <3 P.S your jokes were different | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:09 WaveofShadow wrote: I've only been lynched once, and it was right at the end of LX. Does that mean I'm a good player too? It sure does. | ||
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edit: oats, not sure you know what 'sheeping' means dear | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:29 wherebugsgo wrote: I disagree still. There is nothing that indicates a scumteam of sciberbia/DP/whoever would necessarily have been better than what we had. You know why? Cause people like Axle, who play very differently dependent on alignment, are unlikely to get lynched as town. It's all just conjecture, saying that you would have been able to balance the game better on that basis without considering those 3 vets. The argument is based on seeing the results, but there is no empirical evidence that it actually holds in practice (also there's no evidence that the reason the scumteam lost was because of player imbalance either!) And to top it all off there's no measure of skill that says the scumteam you proposed is better than the one that was in this game, or that the change would have kept town level the same. E: this was @ DP and whomever else was talking about the teams I'm kinda tempted, in a completely arbitrary manner, to do some kind of ELO rating for players with both a town and a mafia ELO, with results in games averaged across the team's ELO. Just for curiosity of how it looks. On a speculative note, you could say that you'd expect games with a higher proportion of players with large disparity between town and mafia ELOs to have more positive town results, regardless of 'objective' rating. For example a game of 12 iamperfections would more often result in a town win than a game of 12 wbgs. | ||
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1. iamperfection; town ELO 2000 mafia ELO 1000 2. WaveofShadow; town ELO 1500 mafia ELO 1500 3. Ace; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 2500 4. prplhz; town ELO 1600 mafia ELO 1200 5. DarthPunk; town ELO 2000 mafia ELO 2000 6. Oatsmaster; town ELO 1400 mafia ELO 1300 7. Tunkeg; town ELO 1500 mafia ELO 1500 8. Palmar; town ELO 2400 mafia ELO 2000 9. marvellosity; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 2400 10. Axlegreaser; town ELO 1300 mafia ELO 1300 11. raynpelinkeet; town ELO 1600 mafia ELO 1600 12. sciberbia; town ELO 2100 mafia ELO 1700 Average strength of mafia team in this game: 4100/3 = 1366.6 Average strength of town team in this game: 17400/9 = 1933.3 Best theoretical mafia team: 6900/3 = 2300 Worst theoretical town team: 15000/9 = 1666.6 Average town ELO: 21600/12 = 1800 Average mafia ELO: 20000/12 = 1666.6 | ||
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On April 12 2013 01:58 syllogism wrote: While you are doing arbitrary math, can you factor in the advantage town gets from knowing that teams aren't RNGed Well the thing is, it becomes much less arbitrary if I go back many games and factor in results of each game, because ELO by its nature is self-correcting. So if I make a guess that's originally too high, if they lose games then their rating would fall quite quickly. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:04 WaveofShadow wrote: Yes but the point I'm making is, there is no REAL mathematical way of estimating skill like this. Any numbers you come up with or what a win or loss does to this arbitrary number is still just that, arbitrary. As a player plays more and more games in a team setting, elo becomes more accurate supposedly, but with a sample size like TL Mafia, there is absolutely no way a skill rating like elo would come close to being an accurate representation. There are WAY too many mitigating factors such as the hosts, style of game (mini/normal/themed/whatever), roles available, who is playing in said game, etc. Theoretically this would matter less if people could play hundreds of games but that doesn't happen here. Well, 'who is playing in said game' is something that would indeed be factored in It would be more a project of curiosity rather than something that absolutely establishes skill, obviously. | ||
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like pretty sure Palmar's town ELO would be way lower than how he is perceived; he lost YANMM and LVIII as town, and as mafia I've handed him 4 other losses besides that in the last year (LIV, Death Note, NMM3, Hero), so his ELO would be relatively low for someone of his stature. | ||
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On April 12 2013 02:55 wherebugsgo wrote: talking about Elo like this is more evidence that your entire mentality is results-based. winrate is not everything in a game like this, because there are so many factors that go into a game. You can't compare a win in one game to a win in another; it's the same reason people fuck up meta all the time. Games are not strictly comparable one to one. There are plenty of worse players who get carried and plenty of better players who get brought down. Yes, winrates may correlate with skill, but not nearly as strongly in other team games, because the sample sizes are so small. Average games played is probably less than 10. Good luck getting anything statistically significant out of samples that small. (for the record; I have 7 mafia games. You think you're gonna get anything useful out of those from an objective standpoint?) how many times do i have to repeat that it wouldn't be an objective measure? why are you taking it so seriously??? | ||
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edit: and i guess curiosity for how well it measured future games (not well, i imagine) | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36157 Posts
The sheer number of stats there are like your 1-6 town record would make ratings quite amusing. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36157 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36157 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36157 Posts
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