EPTOn April 08 2013 10:31 ObviousOne wrote:
Commercial break. Come at me bro.
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On April 08 2013 10:30 strongandbig wrote:
hi sharrant
i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together.
that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying
it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts
so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game?
On April 08 2013 09:46 Sharrant wrote:
Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one.
+ Show Spoiler +
He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day.
##Unvote: Keirathi
Regarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase.
Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible.
Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan.
Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least.
He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process.
As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie.
I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who.
Well, I can't think of anyone who commented on my Keirathi case, but here's an update for no one.
+ Show Spoiler +
He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day.
On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP:
Oh, what the fuck.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit.
EBWOP:
Oh, what the fuck.
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On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote:
StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now.
Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit.
On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote:
So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle.
And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.)
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On April 07 2013 15:09 geript wrote:
Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all.
Honestly Keirathi, I don't feel great about Rayn, but I don't want to put too much stock in a meta read from one game especially when I don't know much of anything about Rayn. I could see someone going for a plan that puts them early in the draft order regardless of alignment.
As for S&B I'd like to hear his response, but I like your points about how he seems to find the draft/picking phase important but doesn't actually contribute anything to them at all.
So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle.
And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.)
On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:
@rayn: good, you're back
First: ##Unvote
Now, let's talk a bit:
What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement.
You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently.
You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder.
Let's look at the progression, exactly:
Then:
geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here.
Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!"
YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off.
It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different?
Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out.
I already addressed that.
No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind.
@rayn: good, you're back
First: ##Unvote
Now, let's talk a bit:
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend.
1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend.
What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement.
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself?
How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself?
You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently.
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
2) That's bullshit. I never said "abandon Geript's plan, it's dumb". I wanted to implement Geript's + Vivax's plan and use them both. Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=19#362
I don't know why you even bring something this ridiculous up..
2) That's bullshit. I never said "abandon Geript's plan, it's dumb". I wanted to implement Geript's + Vivax's plan and use them both. Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=19#362
I don't know why you even bring something this ridiculous up..
You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder.
Let's look at the progression, exactly:
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On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc.
On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote:
New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list.
New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list.
This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc.
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On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5.
I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5.
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On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then:
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On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles.
I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles.
geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here.
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part..
There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part..
Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!"
YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off.
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
TLDR;
- Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are.
TLDR;
- Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are.
It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different?
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now.
- uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now.
Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out.
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On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them.
- excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them.
I already addressed that.
No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind.
##Unvote: Keirathi
Regarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase.
On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good.
1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT.
2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting.
3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour
4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway.
I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks.
So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good.
1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT.
2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting.
3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour
4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway.
I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks.
Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible.
On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues.
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues.
Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan.
On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable.
I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it.
On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues.
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues.
No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable.
I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it.
Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least.
On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway.
Will sleep on it.
The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway.
Will sleep on it.
He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process.
As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie.
I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who.
hi sharrant
i don't think you are right in interpreting those posts as townie, those are things scum could do as well - both because setup discussion is always fertile ground for scum to grow the rare towncred-flower, and because it was (or at least, it seemed to me) clear that this town was too fractious for a real plan to come together.
that said i like that you are taking this seriously and giving real thought to what you're saying
it seems like you haven't been commenting much on stuff since the end of the setup phase but that may be because you play more like i did when i was a new player, with a lot of full sentences and capitalization and well-thought-out posts
so how about lets talk about a player? I randomly chose obviousone. i wrote up a few sentences about his post about artanis, how about you do the same and then we can both post ours after i finish my next dota game?
Commercial break. Come at me bro.
i want sharrant to go at you bro
