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MilkSuckler
Swaziland597 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:46 Aquanim wrote: Yo MilkSuckler, I'm not dead quite yet. Answer the question. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294¤tpage=98#1960 There you go dear  | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Nonono you're misunderstanding me. THE EFFORT speaks volumes not the action. He put ALL THAT EFFORT into reading Vivax' filter and pouring over meta and whatever the fuck...for a townread...for you. It looks scummy to me. Why not spend that "2 hours" on putting together a case against someone? He's under heavy attack, he needs to find scum. One of the major points against him is that he's had like no scum reads. I looked at Obvious' post because it was new and commented on it. There's a vast difference. Well, why not make some effort to read someone at all, meta included, to get a better read on them, especially someone as volatile as Vivax who seems to have a history of violence with various people on the forums here? I didn't really see what some of you guys saw about him D1 that made him super scummy so it seemed like a reasonable request to get a better read not only for myself but to potentially clear up some misunderstandings about his play if it was within my power. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right but I'm confident enough in my preliminary read to not see him as a threat at this point. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:48 MilkSuckler wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294¤tpage=97#1940 You gave the right answer... thats why it is the wrong answer. You have proven you understand the reasoning behind town/scum logic with RNG discussion. Yet is You even quote his behaviour and turn a blind eye. For me: This actually for me proves you are scum.. you KNOWINGLY turned a blind eye to what you know (as a townie) *stinks* I conclude with: This isn't actually an answer to my question. If there weren't any answers I could have given that would have changed your mind why did you ask the question in the first place? Also... Yet is I don't really agree with this, and it certainly wasn't clear to me at the time. F'rinstance, I thought at the time that Prom insulting the first player to question him was designed to rile people up more and try to provoke a response, which would have been a good townie tactic. Your case is still assuming that I have completely read the thread and thought hard about all of it, which is already longer than any games I've previously played. I've been busy since the game started and thus haven't had time to think critically about all 25 players. What exactly is scummy about me not realising Prom's gambit wasn't done well until it was specifically pointed out? Do you seriously think the entirety of my filter reflects a scummy player? I know you, and I know how many townies you've tunneled based on a single perceived inconsistency. You're doing it again. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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The Milkman
Mongolia140 Posts
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MilkSuckler
Swaziland597 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:00 Aquanim wrote: This isn't actually an answer to my question. If there weren't any answers I could have given that would have changed your mind why did you ask the question in the first place? Also... I don't really agree with this, and it certainly wasn't clear to me at the time. F'rinstance, I thought at the time that Prom insulting the first player to question him was designed to rile people up more and try to provoke a response, which would have been a good townie tactic. Your case is still assuming that I have completely read the thread and thought hard about all of it, which is already longer than any games I've previously played. I've been busy since the game started and thus haven't had time to think critically about all 25 players. What exactly is scummy about me not realising Prom's gambit wasn't done well until it was specifically pointed out? Do you seriously think the entirety of my filter reflects a scummy player? I know you, and I know how many townies you've tunneled based on a single perceived inconsistency. You're doing it again. Nice work going ad-hominem at the end. I know you, and I know how many townies you've tunneled based on a single perceived inconsistency. You're doing it again. ========= If you recall, I actually liked your filter when JJ called you out, and said he needs to provide more substance. My issue with your play came about during your defense from JJ. I probed you, and your guilt became more and more apparent; no tunneling involved there. Nice try to discredit there, dear :p ========= Lastly, the right answer: was to not be aware of the right answer. ========Stupidity would have set you free. To expound: That you comment on town-motivation with prome; infers you spent time examining the action in question before deriving at your soft-defense conclusion. Our discussions have proved you are aware of what is right, and what is wrong.. I severely doubt you had an epiphany moment mid-game, to give you improved insight into town/scum motivations; so its safe to conclude you were aware of this pre-game. Thus, you analysed the behaviour.. you were aware of what is town motivation.. but you still turned a blind eye and tried to cast doubt on a prome lynch.. I see ZERO town motivation for that action | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:12 MilkSuckler wrote: Nice work going ad-hominem at the end. ========= If you recall, I actually liked your filter when JJ called you out, and said he needs to provide more substance. My issue with your play came about during your defense from JJ. I probed you, and your guilt became more and more apparent; no tunneling involved there. Nice try to discredit there, dear :p Mate, I'm trying to point out to you where you're going wrong so you can learn from this and become a better player. Like I said, when I flip take a look at your case. You're essentially lynching me for not being perfect. ========= ======== To expound: That you comment on town-motivation with prome; infers you spent time examining the action in question before deriving at your soft-defense conclusion. Our discussions have proved you are aware of what is right, and what is wrong.. I severely doubt you had an epiphany moment mid-game, to give you improved insight into town/scum motivations; so its safe to conclude you were aware of this pre-game. Thus, you analysed the behaviour.. you were aware of what is town motivation.. but you still turned a blind eye and tried to cast doubt on a prome lynch.. I see ZERO town motivation for that action I had an epiphany (pretty good description actually) that Promethelax wasn't trying to make the RNG gambit succeed. I thought he might have been at that point, and later realised he almost certainly wasn't. You can take that or leave it. And once again that was NOT A DEFENCE OF PROM. That was a "someone please explain this to me further", and Wade obliged. | ||
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MilkSuckler
Swaziland597 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:11 The Milkman wrote: I don't understand your point Milk. Aquanim actually supported candidate who was dead set on lynching Promethelax and just because he did not see through Promethelax's intentions says nothing of him - I myself was not convinced... till like I read 15 pages. People can be wrong. Aquanim has been helpful so far, he's been asking questions, prodding people and getting reactions out of them. He has been consequent with his read on ObviousOne. He seems to really care about this case but he's seen that there is not that much of a support for that lynch (now, because we all seem to have stronger reads). His play goes from point A to point B, your questions and his answers prove just that, there is no contradiction. Those were the same pointers I felt when I stood up for aquanim before. I agree people can be wrong.. and I admit i could be wrong.. I really liked aquanim until this "town motivation' issue occured. The problem is: turning that blind eye. In fact, I think Ver's guide has a similar situation when he nailed scum (not that I am using that as a basis for this) ========= My problem in short: Aqua commented on prome with a soft-defense. Why comment 'off-the-cuff'? It does not fit the style of Aquanim, he is a critical thinker; not an impulse man. If town.. I am confident he would have read the the cases, then re-read prome and go.. hold on.. this doesnt make sense.. and then pose his question due to critical thought. Therein lies the problem.. He has proved he can differentiate between town/scum logic for RNG traps... Hence before he voiced his opinion on the matter, he already ran the town/scum rationale and STILL decided town motivation was a possibility This doesn't hold up ----- If scum I believe he seized an opportunity to appear interested in the lynch by casting some doubt, and then demonstrate conviction to town by being actively 'convinced'. | ||
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
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MilkSuckler
Swaziland597 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:18 Aquanim wrote: I had an epiphany (pretty good description actually) that Promethelax wasn't trying to make the RNG gambit succeed. I thought he might have been at that point, and later realised he almost certainly wasn't. You can take that or leave it. And once again that was NOT A DEFENCE OF PROM. That was a "someone please explain this to me further", and Wade obliged. All scum say: after my flip, do a re-read to see where you went wrong - including prome lol Look: I will do a re-read tonight with a fresh head and see if I agree with how I feel right now. Having said that.. I am not a vig, so from that perspective; I am not the one that needs to be convinced of innocence/guilt. | ||
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MilkSuckler
Swaziland597 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:21 randombum wrote: I'm with aqua on this one suckler. The heat you are giving him is easily explained by he figured out the inconsistency in prom's play after his original soft-defense. Yeah im starting to see that, which is why Im taking a break and come back later. I agree townies can make mistakes; and I did like his filter before this situation arose. randombum: since you are here and you asked for pointer directions; some ppl asked about jcarlsoniv before. He was another prome defender.. care to share your thoughts on him? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:26 MilkSuckler wrote: Having said that.. I am not a vig, so from that perspective; I am not the one that needs to be convinced of innocence/guilt lol I wondered about that. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:21 randombum wrote: I'm with aqua on this one suckler. The heat you are giving him is easily explained by he figured out the inconsistency in prom's play after his original soft-defense. Yeah I am not so sure about shooting Aqua for not knowing Prom was going to introduce RNG discussion and then botch up the execution. Policy talk happens as a means to generate some discussion so it started as a way to start earning town cred as discussed. The execution failed in how Prom responded and perhaps also how long he held to his notion that he somehow knew better than everyone else how that conversation should go. He answered my question about it rather flippantly as well, which was kind of annoying. He didn't work to convince. He simply seemed to convey that knew it was a good play when it certainly doesn't fly here. Unless the timeline of actions is different in reality from what I remember, (posting on mobile) I am not entirely on board with this idea. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Yet in spite of me stepping down, I still won mayor. Think about that. In spite of me stepping down, drawing ire from a veteran in the form of Toadesstern, having THREE SEPARATE VETERANS screaming about how I shouldn't be mayor and Doc H should, I won mayor last cycle. I touched on this earlier, but I believe there were 3 types of people voting for me at the end of the day yesterday: Scum, Inactives, and people voting me to keep me from being voted Pardoner. Confirmed scum and who I believe fall into the last category are marked. Promethelax, Hassybaby, The Macho Man, Restraining Order, grush57, randombum, WaveofShadow, The Milkman, DoctorHelvetica, Vivax, Wade Fell Help me determine who is scum among those not marked. That is my request of town. I believe Vivax to be one of them, and I'm leaning scum on Hassybaby too. So I'm left with Vivax Hassybaby The Macho Man Restraining Order grush57 randombum WaveofShadow Toad I also think there's at least one scum voting Wade. Because there are fewer names on that list, and more activity per capita, that's where I'm starting. Right now, I think one scum is ObviousOne. I've outlined reasons prior, and his activity post-flip and absence prior to flip do nothing to change my mind. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
Main post 1 + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 04:01 jcarlsoniv wrote: Alllllllrighty VayeshMoru After a quick read through his filter, one thing is certainly obvious (aside the fact that VM is 3rd person role playing): He isn't committing to anything. VM makes a couple posts about disliking Vivax: + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 10:09 VayeshMoru wrote: Vayesh finds all this talking hard on the head. He believes silencing Vivax would ease the suffering of all considerably. After that silence is attained the society of cult killers should move on to discussing real mayoral choices. Those who decide to blend in with shadow and hide their faces are no better than doomsday bringers. On February 26 2013 10:49 VayeshMoru wrote: when one speaks, meaning should be revealed. Instead when Vivax speaks confusion is created. Men of order and truth have no reason to create chaos, to mute those of worth. On February 26 2013 10:52 VayeshMoru wrote: obviousone could say this yes. But the annuls show that the discussion the one by OO has been more relevant than that of the mockery of society of the Vivax And then gives his $.02 about some other people: + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 11:02 VayeshMoru wrote: Let the records show the the voice of Prom has slowly gone from the soothing and alluring voice of the songstress to the shriek of countless banshee's. Cult worshipping is appearing to be at an all time high. A savior is needed to clear the shadows from our light. On February 26 2013 11:09 VayeshMoru wrote: Vayesh is puzzled at the contradictions brought to bear before him. The voice of the man of water speaks of non committal when he himself fails to show commitment to the cause. The light is not finding its way into the ocean depths. Perhaps with more swimming the figure will come closer to illumination. On February 26 2013 12:20 VayeshMoru wrote: A question appears. Does this lab rat have experience in worlds outside of the team liquid? If so why would the experiment feel the need to declare his inability to perform. On February 26 2013 12:25 VayeshMoru wrote: Vayesh finds it odd that Prom feels the need to speak for a man named marv. Vayesh does not see the one by that name in this world. If he exists he must be a man of the mask. If that were the case would it not be wise to correlate that the man from prom was in some form of dealings with the masked devil On February 26 2013 12:41 VayeshMoru wrote: one world is not enough to validate a truth the man of prom is implying. However the annuls will record that the mask of the bovine has declared a correct statement. The rushing man is not in danger of the deathmachines for now. He is intentionally making a point to put his mark on a lot of different people. He seems somewhat supportive of the Prom lynch, but again, it's hard to tell, he's not committing to anything. He's largely contributing very little, but casting his little doubts upon enough people that eventually, one has to stick. I would not be sad to see VayeshMoru die. @Dr.H: How confident are you in either/or/both Prome and Vivax being scum? Are you going to continue to push them until the end of the day? I know Prome can't defend himself at this point, and I feel Vivax has not done a good job of defending himself (but last game I was convinced Vivax was scum, and I was dead wrong, so I'm being a bit more wary this time around). That basically boiled down to minor case on Viax and a relatively big case on vayesh. However, his next big post is Main post 2 + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 10:36 jcarlsoniv wrote: K, gonna try to answer the questions/comments addressed to/about me. If I missed something, let me know. (and I just completely fucked up formatting and lost my whole post, so now I'm sad) At the time of posting, I was not going to beat the dead horse (as I said previously) that was the case already made. There was nothing I could say that would have been any value that hadn't already been posted by others. So I made a stab at doing my own hunting for the future. Regarding Vivax, as I said earlier, this feels incredibly reminicent of the headbutting we did last game. You'll notice that in my absence, he has turned to pressuring me quite a bit. This is fine, but it's misguided, and very familiar. As for Vayesh, after seeing him post more, I am willing to retract my previous gut read. Despite the cryptic nature of my posting, it does seem that he's trying to contribute and be useful. (and I like reading his posts, lol) For Vayesh, please see above. For Prom - I merely reiterated what he had already said earlier: + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 22:00 Promethelax wrote: Hey all, catching a jetplane outta here in a few minutes but I'm here right now. I'm still uncomfortable with Wade though knowing it is bh makes him less likely to be scum in my eyes. His weird d1 behaviour is weird in a blazing way, which I usually find scummy. Things I still find scummy in him: his omgus attack already mentioned, attacking me for having a changed read after I reread the thread (I get that everyone wants to get on my wagon now, its the in thing to do but assuming you do lynch me when I flip look for shoddy reasoning like Wade's), his obsession with the vet/newbie dichotomy (he is focusing on it to the exclusion of actual scum hunting) Things I find townie: his confidence and casual tone ("for all you know I'm warbaby" and "so no real opinions then") conclusion: keep an eye on, not a good day one lynch JJ on the other hand is looking scummier (again this only works for me but once I flip go back and look at my reads k thx) I am under a lot of pressure now and most/all of the vets and smurfs (i.e. probable vets want to lynch me) and yet JJ comes in and says I am town for no reason. He has a reason. He just won't share it. It looks to me like a scummer trying to gain a little cred on a mislynch while also not actually derail the lynch. This is his whole interaction with me/comment on me before his sudden defense conclusion: probably scum, would lynch. I'm heading out of town and will have limited internet access. I will post when I can. Good luck town! That was his most recent post. He also said in pregame that he would have very limited availability at this time. There are a number of people who will kill him should they be elected mayor (VE and DrH off the top of my head) If he does indeed flip red, it's the people actively avoiding voting for these candidates that should be scrutinized. I agree the geript was making a terrible case on you. I also don't like: Geript, it doesn't look like you're going to get a WoS lynch today, so unless you can actually make a real case for him, then make your case on Vivax. None of this association shit when nothing has happened yet. Bold is mine, Important parts are he has retracted both his reads with minimal explanation. The part with vayesh is especially concerning, his gut read was strong enough to write up a post, but not so strong that he is willing to retract it when it hasn't been scrutinized or mentioned very much. Those are the two main posts of his and so what I derive the majority of my read which is he looks pretty scummy. If he can explain adequately why he was so quick to change his read I'll look him over again. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
For example: I was uninterested in trying to get Promethelax into the Pardoner position yesterday. Why? Because the votes were spread out over 3 candidates and there were a fuckton of inactives. Add to that the fact that I know I'm town, I have a town read on Doc H and I knew one of the two of us would get the role instead of scum. It is NOT because I was "making a play for Pardoner" or whatever it is you're accusing me of, it's exactly for the reasons I laid out - both at the time and just now. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On February 28 2013 16:53 ObviousOne wrote: Well, why not make some effort to read someone at all, meta included, to get a better read on them, especially someone as volatile as Vivax who seems to have a history of violence with various people on the forums here? I didn't really see what some of you guys saw about him D1 that made him super scummy so it seemed like a reasonable request to get a better read not only for myself but to potentially clear up some misunderstandings about his play if it was within my power. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right but I'm confident enough in my preliminary read to not see him as a threat at this point. You have a scum read on Vivax, counter-case, please, VE. | ||
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
On February 28 2013 17:48 geript wrote: Everyone just stop whatever they're doing and read VE's filter now. His last post makes absolutely no sense. It's also incompatible with VE's personality. He's Type A; he's a honey badger. He don't give a fuck. Why, if he's so confident in his reads, would he not pull shennannies? Why does he try to step down? VE, you best be glad I don't have a gun, because you'd be dead. It's really fucking hard to read VE because he stopped quating people when his filter is 13 pages long with almost no quotes. A lot of stuff is hard to understand without re-reading the whole 100 pages of this game. | ||
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