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yamato77
11589 Posts
On January 06 2013 18:10 ShiaoPi wrote: Are you familiar with MrZ's meta? He is playing pretty much according to it imo... I am not familiar with his meta, so I don't factor that in to my decision making. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
also, is anybody else in here? Xatalos by chance? | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
If he can't manage to pull it together and play more townie, I would certainly lynch him. Just because he has a meta of being useless as town doesn't mean he should be allowed to get away with it every game. There's always the chance he's useless and scum, you know. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Well yamato you have managed to get yourself out of my hitlist (at least for now). Xatalos, get in here, I want to poke you with questions! | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
As I've mentioned before he's advocated the idea that we should be deciding on a lynch by now, which is in opposition to the town-favored idea Hapa put forth that we should allow more time for ourselves so that we don't end up mislynching. Indeed so far that has been good, because we haven't done anything rash or stupid just because we felt we had to decide on someone to kill. On January 04 2013 09:37 MrZentor wrote: Also, dragging days out will lead to decreased interest in the game by town, increasing inactivity, and generally making things easier for scum. Days should be 48-72 hours. He's expressed this sentiment multiple times since this initial post in the form of troll votes and acts of impatience. He's pushing town toward making a bad decision which is something I do not think we should be doing. Only scum would want to advocate this idea. On January 05 2013 07:21 MrZentor wrote: I will use my hammer vote as soon as I possibly can. It's unlikely that scum will want to have the final vote on somebody, because it will put them under a lot of scrutiny. This post here he looks like he's setting himself up for making the hammer vote on a player, and then calling himself town for doing it. And again he's advocating the idea that quick hammer lynches are a good thing when they only benefit scum. On January 06 2013 11:23 MrZentor wrote: There's too little information to make an accurate lynch first day; we're just wasting time by delaying it. Here he bemoans day 1 as useless and says we should lynch someone. He doesn't have any good ideas of who to lynch, nor has he helped make day 1 more useful, he just wants to kill someone. Apathy about who is lynched is a scummy trait. So basically instead of being pro-town and scum hunting, or even offering up a scum read, he's given town reads on people and told us all to lynch someone quickly. He's playing anti town. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 15:35 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, caught up. What concerns me about Xatalos, as you can see in the spreadsheet is this post: His bit on DP reads to me as a biiiig over-justification. What is he trying to accomplish on DP? What is the purpose of beggining by stating why DP looks town, and then refuting it? Xatalos, I'd like you to better explain this post, so I can better understand where you are coming from. The reason I have conflicting arguments about DP's alignment is because I have conflicting feelings about him. Some posts he seems townish, some posts scummy. By the way, he still hasn't responded to any of my questions earlier... Even though he has posted a reasonable amount since then. That doesn't make me feel too good about him, but it's not like we're lynching him anyways (there are so many people who are hiding in plain sight compared to him), so I'd rather not focus on him for now. It's true that MrZentor has been quite passive and non-contributing, but he was somewhat like this in Paranoia Mafia as well (and he was town). And I got a townish feel from the discussion we had earlier in the thread. I don't feel like he's a good lynch. I said I was ready to vote for Mr. Cheesecake, but somehow I don't feel like it's a sufficiently justifiable lynch. He's had some townish posting lately and my read on him wasn't strong to begin with. But there's someone else I want to discuss... ShiaoPi The first thing that doesn't seem right is this post: On January 05 2013 12:14 ShiaoPi wrote: Hmm looks like RiseAgain has still not responded.... Anyway moving onto the matters more at hand for now. I don't think that DP or Hapa are scum, it feels much more like townies at each others throats for minor things. While I can see where both are coming from during the exchange I does kind of worry me that DP does not follow up with a vote as Hapa does. Does not seem to fit when he calls him scum more than once earlier. @Mr.CC Xatalos is kind of a lynchbait in itself. He is not that easy to read (at least for me), but what I have seen so far from him does not really convince me on his scumminess. From time to time he does these 180-turns but usually it is because he lays his entire thoughtprocess out and therefore every nook and turn of his mind is in the thread. He is nullish right now. I want to see more from RiseAgain, so ##Vote: RiseAgain get in here and do something please!  I agree with his points about Hapa/DP and myself, but then comes the weird "pressure" vote. It reminds me so much of an earlier game where one Mafia player made a similar pressure vote without ANY conviction. There's even a double (over?)justification for this vote (I want to see more from him - VOTE - do something please). It feels like just a ploy to appear scumhunting with pressure, but that pressure is so weak and apologetic that it doesn't look like he even tried to accomplish anything. It's just all too indifferent about gaining any new information and basically voting for the sake of having voted. On January 05 2013 12:26 ShiaoPi wrote: Right now I am torn between the two of jaybrundage and yamato77. More tending towards yamato77 for his meltdown in logic as jaybrundage has done nothing, which is bad but not necessarily scum On January 05 2013 12:26 ShiaoPi wrote: EBWOP: oh and someone I would be more reluctant to lynch but could agree to is DP Just listing possible lynch candidates without much (or any in DP's case) reasoning, and putting his foot pre-emptively in a lot of bandwagons. Not advancing the thread, not scumhunting, merely agreeing to lynch several players. On January 06 2013 17:15 ShiaoPi wrote: Okay finally got some time to give out some thoughts. First off welcome Z-Boson, good to have a active replacement! Moving on to some housekeeping: DP's reactions since I was gone seem to me pretty townie, by extension Hapa seems town as well with the entire thoughtprocess behind tunneling being revealed. So I am retracting my scum-leaning read that I had on DP earlier. I am interested currently in these people: yamato Xatalos MrZ yamato: There are many things which would probably be me reiterating stuff that was mentioned (discrepancy in behaviour as hapa said). Not being really present, throwing votes around with little reasoning. But that can be explained by his lack of time due to RL business. could really use more analysis and reasoning from him. Xatalos: I said earlier that Xatalos is a lynchbait. That is because he is hesitating a lot, laying out a lot of his thoughts in the thread and therefore opening himself up for harsh critique if he changes his mind and posts it. His lack of any stance is alarming though. While it is somewhat just his playstyle (IIRC) I still dislike it a lot, I mean day 1 has been going for quite a long time now already, while we did not get more information through lynching there is still a lot of content to search through and find something. MrZ: He is useless, which is stupidly just his meta with the lightheartedness he has shown. I don't like useless people but cannot condemn him based on this. Actually I started this post with wanting to lynch into Xata/yamato preferrably yamato but now that I am writing those reads feel just unsatisfying...There is nothing really much that distinguishes one option from the other. I am reluctant to lynch yamato since he seems legitimately busy, also relcutant to lynch Xata for just playing as he does (same goes for MrZ). Somehow this day 1 has not been really productive >_> All of his stances are neutral and weak. Although it's a bit hypocritical since I've been hesitant as well, but when he was town in our earlier game together, he had VERY strong opinions and even hard defended a scum until he actually flipped red. When he was Mafia, he was very quiet and vague. This just feels like much more fitting his scum meta, although it's not a huge pool of evidence. With this, I'm actually much more confident in ShiaoPi being scum than Mr. Cheesecake. It's also late in the day, so I guess it's about time to finally cast a vote. ##Vote ShiaoPi | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
How is Shiao voting for a lurker who eventually got replaced scummy? He wants him to be more active, and somehow that's scum motivated? His stances are not weak. He's been putting pressure on me since he made the post, and he wants to do so to you. It's not like he's just saying shit to say it. And then this gem "I guess it's about time to finally cast a vote" Or in other words: "I'm going to put this riiiiight here. Hopefully town doesn't think I'm scummy for this!" That shit is weak, bro. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
While I like you doing more analysis, there is some stuff I do not agree with. Especially the first post you quoted with the guidelines on time. Hapa actually wanted a self-imposed deadline of 72h, which is something I did not agree to. So taking that quote from Zentor out of context makes it seem as it were all the time pushing for lynching somebody to end it the day. That is simply wrong. I can also sympathise with his sentiment that we really should start consolidating on someone by now. A much longer day 1 has negative effect on us imo. You are right when you say that his play is not necessarily pro-town by now. But I can understand where he comes from to a certain degree, which explains why I said earlier that I am torn on all my candidates for today's lynch. @Xatalos: Nice that you have popped in, but not only are you dead wrong on me but your case is crap. I expected more than cherrypicking my filter for bits you can build something on. I cannot even fathom how you critisize me for putting a vote on Rise as pressure when he had done jackshit at that moment. The next two quotes are an answer to a question I was asked to. I was asked who the other options of mine were, I responded. Don't even see what is wrong with them as if you have studied my filter it is pretty clear why I listed each of them. Now towards my stances being neutral and weak is stupid as shit. I posted my thoughts on the players I found suspicious at the moment and pressured them when they were around see the entire dialogue between me and yamato just above. As icing on the cake you take a game from almost half a year back (which was also one of my newbie games) as a "meta-argument". That is a nice example of false usage of meta-arguments. If you want to study my meta at least take the most recent game in which I was town (which is LVII if I recall correctly) and compare it to this game... This is just terribly bad and feels forced. ##vote: Xatalos | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Who would be your secondary read Xatalos? Mr.CC? | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:02 yamato77 wrote: Xatalos what the fuck is that post? How is Shiao voting for a lurker who eventually got replaced scummy? He wants him to be more active, and somehow that's scum motivated? His stances are not weak. He's been putting pressure on me since he made the post, and he wants to do so to you. It's not like he's just saying shit to say it. And then this gem "I guess it's about time to finally cast a vote" Or in other words: "I'm going to put this riiiiight here. Hopefully town doesn't think I'm scummy for this!" That shit is weak, bro. It's not about the vote itself, it's about the way he did it. What caused me to feel uneasy about it was this: On April 12 2012 09:13 KharadBanar wrote: So for the sake of pulling more active people into this thread I'm going to do something Kohbee did in Newbie VI to spark some discussion: ##Vote: HiroPro I have no clue whether he is actually scum or not (he was in Newbie VI) but at least it will get him to talk. This is a scum in one of my earlier games. It's a frighteningly similar situation. A scum makes a vote on a lurker, but is 0% convinced about the vote, and repeats that both before and after the vote to make it absolutely clear. Talk about overdoing it? And doesn't that completely destroy any meaning the pressure vote might have had? I'm just not seeing the town motivation for doing a weak fake pressure. His stances are strong? He's been extremely hesitant and vague so far, not committing to absolutely anything. That's in stark contrast to his town meta that I know of. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:11 ShiaoPi wrote: @yamato: While I like you doing more analysis, there is some stuff I do not agree with. Especially the first post you quoted with the guidelines on time. Hapa actually wanted a self-imposed deadline of 72h, which is something I did not agree to. So taking that quote from Zentor out of context makes it seem as it were all the time pushing for lynching somebody to end it the day. That is simply wrong. I can also sympathise with his sentiment that we really should start consolidating on someone by now. A much longer day 1 has negative effect on us imo. You are right when you say that his play is not necessarily pro-town by now. But I can understand where he comes from to a certain degree, which explains why I said earlier that I am torn on all my candidates for today's lynch. @Xatalos: Nice that you have popped in, but not only are you dead wrong on me but your case is crap. I expected more than cherrypicking my filter for bits you can build something on. I cannot even fathom how you critisize me for putting a vote on Rise as pressure when he had done jackshit at that moment. The next two quotes are an answer to a question I was asked to. I was asked who the other options of mine were, I responded. Don't even see what is wrong with them as if you have studied my filter it is pretty clear why I listed each of them. Now towards my stances being neutral and weak is stupid as shit. I posted my thoughts on the players I found suspicious at the moment and pressured them when they were around see the entire dialogue between me and yamato just above. As icing on the cake you take a game from almost half a year back (which was also one of my newbie games) as a "meta-argument". That is a nice example of false usage of meta-arguments. If you want to study my meta at least take the most recent game in which I was town (which is LVII if I recall correctly) and compare it to this game... This is just terribly bad and feels forced. ##vote: Xatalos Right... That's an OMGUS if I ever saw one. It's much easier to judge based on a game you personally participated in, compared to some slightly newer game, but one that you've never played in. What's really your reason for voting me (except my suspicion of you)? Is there oven one? | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
-flip flopping on DP in some logical inconsistencies earlier -not committing at all earlier -writing a terribly bad case for the sake of writing one to get some pressure off yourself. call it OMGUS if you want, I don't think so. Also you have been on my hitlist now, Zentor is not around so I cannot ask him stuff right now, I just asked yamato a bunch of stuff earlier. Leaving you and with that crap contribution you look like the best option for today's lynch | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:16 Xatalos wrote: It's not about the vote itself, it's about the way he did it. What caused me to feel uneasy about it was this: This is a scum in one of my earlier games. It's a frighteningly similar situation. A scum makes a vote on a lurker, but is 0% convinced about the vote, and repeats that both before and after the vote to make it absolutely clear. Talk about overdoing it? And doesn't that completely destroy any meaning the pressure vote might have had? I'm just not seeing the town motivation for doing a weak fake pressure. His stances are strong? He's been extremely hesitant and vague so far, not committing to absolutely anything. That's in stark contrast to his town meta that I know of. Shiao had good reason to pressure vote the lurker here. He didn't just slap his vote somewhere just to have it there. No one this game has been super pushy with their reads or committed to them. It's beneficial to us as town that we don't make any bad decisions on lynches this game because of the mechanics of instant majority. Nothing he's done is scummy. You've certainly tried to make it looks so, but it isn't, and it makes me think you're just looking for an excuse to vote someone. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:25 ShiaoPi wrote: I am voting you now because: -flip flopping on DP in some logical inconsistencies earlier -not committing at all earlier -writing a terribly bad case for the sake of writing one to get some pressure off yourself. call it OMGUS if you want, I don't think so. Also you have been on my hitlist now, Zentor is not around so I cannot ask him stuff right now, I just asked yamato a bunch of stuff earlier. Leaving you and with that crap contribution you look like the best option for today's lynch When was I under pressure...? I've just been trying find someone scummier than Mr. Cheesecake, but it's not an easy job, considering the relatively low activity and the high amount of townish/nullish players. There are many things in your filter that strike me as suspicious (mentioned earlier), and even though they're partly intuition and not solid proof, it's better than Mr. Cheesecake in my eyes (he started off under the radar but has had some engagement since then). | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:29 yamato77 wrote: Shiao had good reason to pressure vote the lurker here. He didn't just slap his vote somewhere just to have it there. No one this game has been super pushy with their reads or committed to them. It's beneficial to us as town that we don't make any bad decisions on lynches this game because of the mechanics of instant majority. Nothing he's done is scummy. You've certainly tried to make it looks so, but it isn't, and it makes me think you're just looking for an excuse to vote someone. You keep focusing on the vote itself. But look at how he did it. There's absolutely zero conviction in it, and he states it clearly, making it a complete fake pressure. It's almost a negative vote with how much he downplays it. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:36 Xatalos wrote: When was I under pressure...? I've just been trying find someone scummier than Mr. Cheesecake, but it's not an easy job, considering the relatively low activity and the high amount of townish/nullish players. There are many things in your filter that strike me as suspicious (mentioned earlier), and even though they're partly intuition and not solid proof, it's better than Mr. Cheesecake in my eyes (he started off under the radar but has had some engagement since then). Several people have mentioned you as a possible lynch candidate that qualifies as under pressure. I would really be interested in those "many things" in my filter that are suspicious, I already answered the ones you quoted earlier. Please show them to me, I don't even know where you find them. Anyway I am out for dinner now. See you later. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
Also Yamato i also think Zentor could be scummy. Alot of people have a town read on him it could jsut be his meta but hes done some pretty scummy things  | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 19:41 ShiaoPi wrote: Several people have mentioned you as a possible lynch candidate that qualifies as under pressure. I would really be interested in those "many things" in my filter that are suspicious, I already answered the ones you quoted earlier. Please show them to me, I don't even know where you find them. Anyway I am out for dinner now. See you later. Okay... I guess that counts as pressure, although I haven't been even remotely in a dangerous spot until now. But this always happens to me when I'm town at some point, so I'm not too worried yet. Are you saying you were really pressuring RiseAgain? I just can't see anything but a weak fake pressure in that. Merely voting for someone without any actual pressure doesn't count as pressure. Some other players in this game have thrown away weak votes as well, but at least they tried to create some pressure. You didn't even try - the opposite, you openly said it was only an empty vote beforehand. Why were you suddenly okay with lynching DP when he started to gain a bandwagon for himself? All I can see is an opportunistic (yet extremely vague) move to potentially get rid of an active player. And when the bandwagon started to crumble, you suddenly dropped him from your suspects without saying a word about it. It feels like you're just trying to get someone lynched, and it doesn't really matter who. | ||
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