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This is MG again... I'll just say that I have no idea what Oats is doing, and here are my responses to some of your thoughts:
Q: How would I have played this deck had I rolled mafia?
A: Easy: Play one-sided accelerators like Axebane Guardian and Overgrown Battlement, keep the Join Forces cards in my hand (as opposed to mulliganing to find them), and use smaller Death Grasps in addition to mafia KP to kill people.
Q: per iGrok, why am I running Death Grasp?
A: Artanis nerfed this from Exsanguinate, which would have just killed everyone regardless of alignment :D. As is, I agree, I need to get 20+ mana for it to become an actual win-condition. Guess what, I'm running 28 basic lands along with other mana sources, and I fully intend to have all of those lands in play by T5. You know, along with everyone else, so that by the time mafia has to deal with the entire town resolving their biggest threats, I'm not rendered completely irrelevant.
Q: <some permutation of "Join Forces could be bad for town given some combination of scum advantages to break symmetry">?
A: First I'll reiterate that by default, town gains ~7 cards of card advantage for every 2 that the mafia do, taking into consideration abnormalities like not having basic land, or certain decks using the graveyard as a resource. For the mafia to break symmetry on that and actually come out ahead, they'd need to have some crazy engine (not a Storm deck, because those were tacitly banned due to the "everyone-takes-turns-simultaneously" nature of this game), and because they had no ex ante preparation for something like this, it's highly unlikely that they do, and none of the townies do.
Q: (Pre-emptively) Why did I play as a hydra account if I was afraid that this would get this messy?
A: I saw a lot of interest in the game relative to the number of slots open, and as MTG is one of my favorite games, I didn't want to deny anyone an opportunity to play, regardless of our previous history or the other player's experience/meta. I'm also super busy with recruiting during the first few weeks of this semester, so I was hoping that we would be more active, considering we're each available during different hours of the day.
I'm here for a bit.
Cheers,
MG
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On January 31 2013 02:29 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 22:12 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 15:54 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
I find these 2 consecutive "fluffy" posts of Suck and Cross where both come out of seemingly nowhere to then go AFK, both attack CH for (IMO) weak reasons, yet neither of them even mention the other.....weird, and that's an understatement.
/G Hi. I said I found Cross suspicious, and told you something I noted about it. I'm not gonna rehash what has already been said by multiple other posters. Although if it would make you happy I can have a go at rephrasing the same things again (hint: I won't do this). I was responding to S&B's post, not yours. S&B never posted anything about Crossfire if I remember correctly, yet completely ignored him and went for CH (which even you think for weak reasons). You also haven't mentioned Crossfire in a while...do you still think he's scummy? What about his last post, what do you think about it? Show nested quote +As far as I'm aware, I'm also one of the first (if not the first) to give the opinion of Stutters that his posts seemed interested and his empty promises mean nothing for alignment. Damn marv, why would you post something like this? :/ "Hi guys! I was the first to post something about Stutters! That makes me townie right? RIGHT?"This whole post of yours is just a big apology and has "I'm doing stuff! Here this is stuff I did in this game! This convinces you I am town right? RIGHT!!!?" all over it That's not the town marv I know of... Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 23:16 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:14 Clockwork Hydra wrote:On January 30 2013 23:06 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:05 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
It's a point.
I wouldn't call it proven.
I expect it to be falsified when marv flips scum.
Carry on. Which is precisely why you and your judgement shouldn't be trusted... So get off your ass, stop taking cheap shots and show us why you're town. I've said what I want to say right now. You're the one acting like a fucking dickhead, not me, dear. Answer this question marv please: Do you realize why people are suspicious of you and S&B?If you do, then some of your aggression is unwarranted and just derails the thread If you don't.....then either I expected too much from you, you are lazy as fuck, or you are scum. /G
I just want that if people are going to call me out, they do so for legitimate reasons. Clockwork's "you lurk as scum" is evidently just incorrect, and I pointed out what I said about Xfire and Stutters because it's not like my thoughts aren't in the thread, just not as much as you guys.
I understand that s&b have contributed/posted less than you guys, but from a personal point of view I was never going to be top dog in this game simply because my understanding of magic is rudimentary (yes, I play this card (haha, get it) because it's true, and I won't apologise for it). Nothing I post is ever an apology, and if you think so, then you really don't know my play :p
As for s&b, I can't really account for his activity.
Crossfire's point on Clockwork arguing about putting too much power in one person's hands and then wanting power themselves (the zombie thing?) is essentially correct, I think. But it could well be Acro being egotistical.
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On January 30 2013 07:22 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 07:10 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Not significant posting is indicative of them as players though, not of them as scum. In fact you'll find that stutters has never had a game of scum on TL but pulls this useless bullshit all the time. Do you think both of Stutters and Xfire could be scum? Who else do you find scummy?
P The probability of them both being scum and acting like that is low. I'm more suspicious of crossfire than stutters. I'm currently looking at Marv+s&b's filter, and i'm seeing things that i dont like. I'd love it if we could all take a look at their filter, because i'm not sure if what im finding scummy is just (marv's?) typical posting style or if it is actually scummy. Also, there is the s&b policy post, which looked to me like a cut and pasted prepared "See im doing stuff!" type post. With relevant informatiOn added in after, of course.
I'm pretty curious about this post, actually. Nova has played with me more than once before, so he should at least have a basic understanding or appreciation of my play. I don't know why he's leaving himself an out with it.
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On January 31 2013 02:38 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 02:29 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:On January 30 2013 22:12 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 15:54 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
I find these 2 consecutive "fluffy" posts of Suck and Cross where both come out of seemingly nowhere to then go AFK, both attack CH for (IMO) weak reasons, yet neither of them even mention the other.....weird, and that's an understatement.
/G Hi. I said I found Cross suspicious, and told you something I noted about it. I'm not gonna rehash what has already been said by multiple other posters. Although if it would make you happy I can have a go at rephrasing the same things again (hint: I won't do this). I was responding to S&B's post, not yours. S&B never posted anything about Crossfire if I remember correctly, yet completely ignored him and went for CH (which even you think for weak reasons). You also haven't mentioned Crossfire in a while...do you still think he's scummy? What about his last post, what do you think about it? As far as I'm aware, I'm also one of the first (if not the first) to give the opinion of Stutters that his posts seemed interested and his empty promises mean nothing for alignment. Damn marv, why would you post something like this? :/ "Hi guys! I was the first to post something about Stutters! That makes me townie right? RIGHT?"This whole post of yours is just a big apology and has "I'm doing stuff! Here this is stuff I did in this game! This convinces you I am town right? RIGHT!!!?" all over it That's not the town marv I know of... On January 30 2013 23:16 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:14 Clockwork Hydra wrote:On January 30 2013 23:06 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:05 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
It's a point.
I wouldn't call it proven.
I expect it to be falsified when marv flips scum.
Carry on. Which is precisely why you and your judgement shouldn't be trusted... So get off your ass, stop taking cheap shots and show us why you're town. I've said what I want to say right now. You're the one acting like a fucking dickhead, not me, dear. Answer this question marv please: Do you realize why people are suspicious of you and S&B?If you do, then some of your aggression is unwarranted and just derails the thread If you don't.....then either I expected too much from you, you are lazy as fuck, or you are scum. /G I just want that if people are going to call me out, they do so for legitimate reasons. Clockwork's "you lurk as scum" is evidently just incorrect, and I pointed out what I said about Xfire and Stutters because it's not like my thoughts aren't in the thread, just not as much as you guys.
Okay, so if I call you out for not taking "leadership" of town, actively trying to hunt scum, or at least promote discussion to get info from people to find scum easier, then you would be okay with it?
Or rather...what do you plan to do? You know you could easily die on T2-T3 if you keep up like this.
Play to your win con marv (if you are town)
Some of your posts gave me this "nah, he wouldn't post this as scum surely? He's too lazy to be scum apparently" feel.....but hey, if you keep being alive and you keep doing shit, I might just think it's a new very efficient scum play from yours.
I understand that s&b have contributed/posted less than you guys, but from a personal point of view I was never going to be top dog in this game simply because my understanding of magic is rudimentary (yes, I play this card (haha, get it) because it's true, and I won't apologise for it). Nothing I post is ever an apology, and if you think so, then you really don't know my play :p
Okay marv, let's get this over with ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! 
http://www.ehow.com/how_2090329_play-magic-gathering.html
Go on and read that, that's it.
Now you won't be "playing that card" again 
As for s&b, I can't really account for his activity.
Well, I already posted his filter from the previous game (here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345422&user=116463 )
There he was active RIGHT FROM THE START, with setup discussion and the like.
For instance, there's his "everybody attack" policy. In that game, he presented it, and stayed answering people's questions, discussing if it should be used or not, and generally being active in discussions about the setup
Here, he just made 1 "policy post", and then never touched on it again. And need I remind you his 1st post was kind of "bad", as in it was just fluff and a rehash of what he said last game.
Then he spends time arguing against CH's zombies....and that's it. That's all he's done.
You can see the contrast with the previous game
Not only that, but the attitude is different. In MTG 1 he started all cheery or enthusiastic, specially about setup discussion. Here he seems more "gloom", or not as enthusiastic.
I would understand if you were a posting machine and "leading the way", so maybe he would get lazy and not do much (much like I'm doing with Prome ). But you aren't.
/G
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@Midnight: Nice of you to finally join us
Please....post who you think is scum, post reads, etc.
People seem not very fond of you+Oats because you are not really the paragon of pro-town-ness when coming down to scumhunting
/G
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On January 31 2013 02:51 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 02:38 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 31 2013 02:29 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:On January 30 2013 22:12 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 15:54 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
I find these 2 consecutive "fluffy" posts of Suck and Cross where both come out of seemingly nowhere to then go AFK, both attack CH for (IMO) weak reasons, yet neither of them even mention the other.....weird, and that's an understatement.
/G Hi. I said I found Cross suspicious, and told you something I noted about it. I'm not gonna rehash what has already been said by multiple other posters. Although if it would make you happy I can have a go at rephrasing the same things again (hint: I won't do this). I was responding to S&B's post, not yours. S&B never posted anything about Crossfire if I remember correctly, yet completely ignored him and went for CH (which even you think for weak reasons). You also haven't mentioned Crossfire in a while...do you still think he's scummy? What about his last post, what do you think about it? As far as I'm aware, I'm also one of the first (if not the first) to give the opinion of Stutters that his posts seemed interested and his empty promises mean nothing for alignment. Damn marv, why would you post something like this? :/ "Hi guys! I was the first to post something about Stutters! That makes me townie right? RIGHT?"This whole post of yours is just a big apology and has "I'm doing stuff! Here this is stuff I did in this game! This convinces you I am town right? RIGHT!!!?" all over it That's not the town marv I know of... On January 30 2013 23:16 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:14 Clockwork Hydra wrote:On January 30 2013 23:06 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:On January 30 2013 23:05 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
It's a point.
I wouldn't call it proven.
I expect it to be falsified when marv flips scum.
Carry on. Which is precisely why you and your judgement shouldn't be trusted... So get off your ass, stop taking cheap shots and show us why you're town. I've said what I want to say right now. You're the one acting like a fucking dickhead, not me, dear. Answer this question marv please: Do you realize why people are suspicious of you and S&B?If you do, then some of your aggression is unwarranted and just derails the thread If you don't.....then either I expected too much from you, you are lazy as fuck, or you are scum. /G I just want that if people are going to call me out, they do so for legitimate reasons. Clockwork's "you lurk as scum" is evidently just incorrect, and I pointed out what I said about Xfire and Stutters because it's not like my thoughts aren't in the thread, just not as much as you guys. Okay, so if I call you out for not taking "leadership" of town, actively trying to hunt scum, or at least promote discussion to get info from people to find scum easier, then you would be okay with it? Or rather...what do you plan to do? You know you could easily die on T2-T3 if you keep up like this. Play to your win con marv (if you are town) Some of your posts gave me this "nah, he wouldn't post this as scum surely? He's too lazy to be scum apparently" feel.....but hey, if you keep being alive and you keep doing shit, I might just think it's a new very efficient scum play from yours. Show nested quote +I understand that s&b have contributed/posted less than you guys, but from a personal point of view I was never going to be top dog in this game simply because my understanding of magic is rudimentary (yes, I play this card (haha, get it) because it's true, and I won't apologise for it). Nothing I post is ever an apology, and if you think so, then you really don't know my play :p Okay marv, let's get this over with ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! http://www.ehow.com/how_2090329_play-magic-gathering.htmlGo on and read that, that's it. Now you won't be "playing that card" again Well, I already posted his filter from the previous game (here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345422&user=116463 ) There he was active RIGHT FROM THE START, with setup discussion and the like. For instance, there's his "everybody attack" policy. In that game, he presented it, and stayed answering people's questions, discussing if it should be used or not, and generally being active in discussions about the setup Here, he just made 1 "policy post", and then never touched on it again. And need I remind you his 1st post was kind of "bad", as in it was just fluff and a rehash of what he said last game. Then he spends time arguing against CH's zombies....and that's it. That's all he's done. You can see the contrast with the previous game Not only that, but the attitude is different. In MTG 1 he started all cheery or enthusiastic, specially about setup discussion. Here he seems more "gloom", or not as enthusiastic. I would understand if you were a posting machine and "leading the way", so maybe he would get lazy and not do much (much like I'm doing with Prome ). But you aren't. /G
As stated, I'm simply not going to have a leadership role this game. I don't want it, and I wouldn't be the best person for it.
s&b is indeed markedly inactive, but I can't say much about that. He's inactive to me too Why do you think I didn't find out what account we were playing until after the game started?
You can read mafia into it if you like, but the pre-game and how this game started are pretty clear indicators BEFORE the game that s&b hasn't had the time to be around and active much. The rest he can say for himself if he wants.
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Well marv, I'm going to tell you this: You guys will make this game hard, and most surely "not fun".
I'll surely have doubts about your alignment the whole game, and if you are town scum+misled townies will kill you (maybe resulting in a town loss), and if you are scum misled townies may ignore you (maybe resulting in a town loss).
There's not nice happy ending with the way you are playing, unless somehow we find the other 2 scum very easily (if you are town)
Could you respond the previous "scum hydra" question?
/G
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On January 31 2013 03:04 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Well marv, I'm going to tell you this: You guys will make this game hard, and most surely "not fun".
I'll surely have doubts about your alignment the whole game, and if you are town scum+misled townies will kill you (maybe resulting in a town loss), and if you are scum misled townies may ignore you (maybe resulting in a town loss).
There's not nice happy ending with the way you are playing, unless somehow we find the other 2 scum very easily (if you are town)
Could you respond the previous "scum hydra" question?
/G
Don't emotionally guilt trip me gonzaw, that *definitely* is not fun.
I'll do my best this game (compare to last magic game) and it's up to you to make decent reads on me as well.
It would seem likely that scum have a hydra, yes.
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On January 31 2013 02:52 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:@Midnight: Nice of you to finally join us Please....post who you think is scum, post reads, etc. People seem not very fond of you+Oats because you are not really the paragon of pro-town-ness when coming down to scumhunting /G
What do you mean, I've been posting whenever I've had the chance :O
The filter comparison between SNB's MTGI and MTGII is pretty stark. This post in particular strikes me as very suspicious:
On January 30 2013 13:55 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:
wut
also i will tap my forest to play wild growth on my savannah then i will tap that to put two mana into the other thing
also also arguing about how much gonzaw et al is/are posting is stupid. it's like you've never played a game with him before. i used to rage at him too but now i kind of just let the waves of posting wash over me. it makes deep analysis of the game pretty much impossible though, so you either have to filter specific people or else you have to just kind of play on general impressions. but with someone posting that much you can't try and read the whole game.
it's just kind of his/their thing. i really wish they would not do it but ive pretty much given up, what are you gonna do.
reads time: bin on fire is probably town because he feels town to me right now (lol)
no but seriously
bin on fire is probably town because of how he's being helpful and promoting discussion and shit.
scumreads are tough but right now i'm pointing at whatever the acro hydra is. i really don't like how he was all "you gotta give me your power or else think i'm scum", forcing people into shitty dichotomies is not a good way to go about being townie. also how he's been running for mayor while refusing to acknowledge that he was running for mayor until we made him.
okay bedtime -snb
As an SNB post, this feels very off to me. Not calling Minds Aglow by name, despite having specifically freaked out about it and Collective Voyage earlier, and then providing the vaguest excuse for a town-read ever, jars strongly with what I've read from him elsewhere. It's just so detached and apathetic, very different from town SNB in MTGI, but very close to how I would have predicted a mafia player to react to the Join Forces mechanic.
If anything, he should be ecstatic by the plan, not alarmed, because putting everyone in the position of having huge creatures to attack with sooner makes his policy recommendation much more relevant. Instead of returning to consider the ramifications of that, he sinks further into inactivity.
On January 30 2013 06:19 SuckMyTopdeck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 05:31 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
You also failed to answer the main question there: do you think we're scum? Sure, people's judgement in using 8/8 tramply beasts of awesome might not always be the best, but unless we actually GET some 8/8 tramply beasts of awesome on town side, we're just punching bags for the mafia creature. Minds Aglow seems by far the fastest way to get there.
Now obviously, if you think the 8/8 tramply creature (or in this case shambling herd of zombies) is going to scum, then by all means oppose it. But don't hide in policy crap. Come out and say "look guys, we should not draw millions of cards, because scum will get a shambling herd of zombies".
/Acro i dont have to think you're scum to not want you to get more powerful than anyone else. I just have to think you're likely to come to incorrect conclusions and not listen to me. I think that if you alone have a shambling herd of zombies, that's not good for town, regardless of whether you are town or not.
This sounds like a deliberate obfuscation of the plan, which he seemed to perfectly understand a few posts ago. An attempt to cast doubt on CH, sowing seeds for him to return to later? This lets him pick a fight and feign productivity while discrediting a player I expect to be a powerful town asset. His theatrics in casting Oats and I as scum also seems forced and tacky.
And his last few posts are all apologies for his MTG ignorance, when that's both easily corrected, and irrelevant to the fact that he hasn't been contributing.
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So who do you think is that scum hydra?
If you are not the scum hydra, at least help us get him.
Also that's the truth marv. Or rather it's something I know WILL happen in this game (it's kind of inevitable). You can't just say "Fuck you just make a decent read on me, if you don't it's your fault", mafia doesn't work like that.
/G
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On January 31 2013 03:09 BinOnFire wrote:
-snip
His theatrics in casting Oats and I as scum also seems forced and tacky.
-snip-
At the very least this is a gross misrepresentation, since my analysis led me to think you were probably town.
Why are you misrepresenting me so viciously, or not reading the thread?
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MG, yes, you have been posting every once in a while, but only to post MTG related stuff.
This new post from you is the only time I remember you hunting scum to be honest
What do you think of Aperture's play and breakdown?
What do you think of Crossfire and what I and CH said about him?
Anybody else catch your attention?
/G
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My other high-priority read is RockHydra, mostly due to this empty promise of his:
On January 30 2013 17:41 RockHydra wrote:
Read most of the posts.
Seems like there is a lot of posts, but most of it involves the raging and is fairly useless. I will try to actually do some scumhunting tonight.
going to also contribute a mana to the card drawing thingie
On January 30 2013 18:44 RockHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 07:59 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Rock (zeb especially): I want to hear more from you. I know how excited you were for this and I happen to know you better than anyone in this game (since I was your town coach) give me something to work with here.
p I realize I haven't posted much. I will try to get some contributions in tonight.
So what does he actually post?
On January 31 2013 00:34 RockHydra wrote:Nice work, grok/aperture pretty impressed with the effort. Hope it was fun for you This is setting a high standard for analysis. I must admit I kinda missed the link at first too when I glanced over it. Never seen the spreadsheet approach before.
Lazy sheeping, baaa. Actual contributions? Neigh!
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On January 31 2013 03:10 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
So who do you think is that scum hydra?
If you are not the scum hydra, at least help us get him.
Also that's the truth marv. Or rather it's something I know WILL happen in this game (it's kind of inevitable). You can't just say "Fuck you just make a decent read on me, if you don't it's your fault", mafia doesn't work like that.
/G
Do we need to identify two mafia now? Or can we just concentrate on one?
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Just from reading through his spreadsheet comments, Aperture is tunneling me quite impressively, so I'm going to stand by my earlier conclusion and advise him to cool off. I can't imagine that he's doing this for every other player, so why single me out? There's a ton of confirmation bias in there, and nitpicky things that obscure the fact that, plain and simple, Join Forces is good for the town, and objectively better now, when it's most likely to make the most difference.
Crossfire is null to me due to lack of content, but his points aren't all that bad, especially from someone who hasn't played MTG and doesn't realize that drawing N, discarding N is an extremely powerful effect in a vacuum for large N. and I'm lending him the benefit of the doubt, for now.
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I asked you about 1 mafia, not 2. If you agree there IS a scum hydra, then better put all the effort possible in finding him soon, rather than let every hydra be until T4 or something (like what happened last game with you+Toad).
The 2nd scum could be another hydra, or maybe Crossfire, I dunno. Unless you want to focus on that "other" mafia? If so go ahead focus
Also you know what's funny? That me+Prome sign basically every single post of ours, yet Acro/dandel, the guys that were so bitchy about hydras signing their post, still don't sign all of theirs
/G
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On January 31 2013 03:21 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:I asked you about 1 mafia, not 2. If you agree there IS a scum hydra, then better put all the effort possible in finding him soon, rather than let every hydra be until T4 or something (like what happened last game with you+Toad). The 2nd scum could be another hydra, or maybe Crossfire, I dunno. Unless you want to focus on that "other" mafia? If so go ahead focus Also you know what's funny? That me+Prome sign basically every single post of ours, yet Acro/dandel, the guys that were so bitchy about hydras signing their post, still don't sign all of theirs /G
In a normal game of mafia I don't try to find every single mafia day 1, so I don't see why I should do so here.
The 'first' mafia is likely to be between Crossfire and Nova.
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Well, I'd say this isn't a "normal" game of mafia
Obviously the same approach doesn't work. For one, you don't have a "lynch" until like T3 or T4, so if you keep "focusing" on Cross/Nova, you will have to do so until one of them flips (again in T3/T4), thus basically ignoring the hydras until that time comes.
/G
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On January 31 2013 03:29 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:Well, I'd say this isn't a "normal" game of mafia Obviously the same approach doesn't work. For one, you don't have a "lynch" until like T3 or T4, so if you keep "focusing" on Cross/Nova, you will have to do so until one of them flips (again in T3/T4), thus basically ignoring the hydras until that time comes. /G
Alright, that makes sense. I'm not going to invent suspicions out of nowhere for now, though. Hydras are going to be quite difficult to read and we're only halfway through day 1 or so.
I'd definitely like MG to answer me on why he totally misrepresented me, however.
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I'm sorry, when did I totally misrepresent you, marv?
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EPT
