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I've been thinking of questions to ask DYH, but you've been so lurky that it's hard to come up with anything. Anyway, off to bed, I'll read your MrZ case in the morning.
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It isn't going to be out tonight. I'll put it up tomorrow, I also need to get to bed.
I'll address my inactivity before I get off though. Right from the beginning I wasn't going to have as much time as I would like for this game. You may recall I /out for just this reason. As things are I have been making time to keep current on the thread and compose my thoughts. I'm playing this game in chunks. It is not ideal, but I have been able to make cases and sometimes interact. Maybe I should have insisted that BH replace me immediately when I saw the rolepm, but I figured I could make it work and save the replacements for people who had serious reasons they couldn't play anymore.
Gnight.
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I call everybody out for lurking right now ! Especially MrZentor !
Seriously guys, I live in Korea, you cannot expect me to stay up all night just to see you start to outing the blues.
You can check the KST in TL banner, it's now the middle of the afternoon here, so I can start to shit this thread with myself.
By first I would like to tell you who I'm going to vote for this round... Not
This post was a sarcastic post. I'm not mad to have been called a lurker... Just you have to realize that I'm living on a different timezone.
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meh..
Right now, I would lynch Kush over DYH. I really think he has more chances to flip scum than DYH.
I really need to see more from DYH and drazak though...
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R
Kush
What a scummer !
My case here boils down to the following main points. Let's have a look at Kush's behavior in this game.- Kush is shying away from discussion when it starts to look bad for him
- Kush is defending Eywa
- Kush is acting dumb on purpose
Part I --- Flying away !
On December 15 2012 11:34 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 11:27 kushm4sta wrote:
"in not retarded I'm town"
-djo
does that strike anyone else as an intensely scummy thing to say? not sure why but i read it and my scumsenses went off the charts. Actually kush, talk to me about that a bit. What about it would you see as scummy?
Did Kush ever answered this question ? Not at all...
On December 16 2012 13:49 Djodref wrote:@ KushIf you are around, I want you to address my case. I'm really interested in your stance on me right now 
Did he address my case+ Show Spoiler [My case against Kush] +On December 16 2012 13:32 Djodref wrote:
Kushm4sta
Kush <3
Kush is notoriously hard to read and an easy mislynch, but they are some things that concerns me in his posts so far. The first thing, of course, is that he is going after me in a very nit-picky way. He is attacking me for one post that he takes totally out of context. That could totally be a scum kush scanning filters to look for something scummy. Let's take a look.
Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 11:27 kushm4sta wrote:
"in not retarded I'm town"
-djo
does that strike anyone else as an intensely scummy thing to say? not sure why but i read it and my scumsenses went off the charts. Totally taken out of the context here. At least he quotes the whole sentence in the next post, but still failed to note that I was answering to Hapa and DP at that time. Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 01:23 kushm4sta wrote:*snip* My biggest scumread so far is djodref. I'm not going to make a big case because it's mostly a feel read at this point honestly. On December 15 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:
I'm not retarded, I'm town, I'm interested into the way I should use my witchcraft votes, obviously you both don't what's really going on in this post is he is making it clear that the reason he brought up the witchcraft votes in the first place was because he thought it was something town would do, and he brought it up not because he cared but because he thought it would make him look town. The other part of my suspicion is how he reacted under pressure. in the last game I played with him he was town. There was a similar early bandwagon and he seemed like he didn't really give a shit. This game he responded to the bandwagon very attentively. Making lists and responding to everyone. His vote on hapa looked like a panic vote.*snip* I brought it up because it was clear for me at that time that Hapa and DP didn't read the part about the witchcraft votes in the OP. I've explained it already when he posted this. So he totally discards the context of this post one more time. For the pressure thing, it's kind of true, but I have been mislynched in the NMM XIX game for not giving a shit about people going after me for bad reasons. So, yeah, I care more about my defense now. I don't understand were he comes from when saying that my vote on Hapa is a panic vote. That's just bs.
The other thing is that Kush has shown an anti-town mentality. Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:27 kushm4sta wrote:
town for the millionth time in a row.
my rules this game:
1. I will never vote thrawn no matter how scummy he looks. I've been certain and wrong too many times. and I have to live with th regret every day of my life.
*snip*
3. I am going to advocate the systematic extermination of lurkers. Yup I want to lynch unreadables over scmreads. And lurking makes you unreadable and immune to all efforts at scumhunting.
Fuck fake pressuring active people.by pretending we might vote them. IF there is a lurker I will push his lynch.
Never voting someone, no matter how scummy he looks... Lynching lurkers over scumreads... That's anti-town, but kush is also quite non-sensical, so I'm not sure what to do with that. Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 05:48 kushm4sta wrote:
Yup that's my rule for this game. kill lurkers before scumreads At least he is consistent with his rule. Oh wait ! he is being called for it and then... Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 11:14 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
So when you look at it, the lurker issue really isn't that bad this game.
So thrawn, when you say lurkers are making this game "unplayable" that is kinda bs.
WTF ! This lurker issue is very concerning this game. I don't understand how he could not stick to his rule now !
So, all in all, I'm leaning scum on Kush, but it's a weak read because he is could have done these posts as town as well.
On December 17 2012 11:44 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 11:33 kushm4sta wrote:
so this is ewyas first forum gameright? and knowing that you actually still think he's scum? I looked at filter and he looks pretty obvtown to me.
djo is scum...more tomorrow.
hapa or thrawn one of those is prob scum.
one of the more quiet lurker people, one of those is probably scum.. I'm thinking dhs maybe jx. @ KushRight now, I have you as either eywa's scum buddy hard defending him, either you going totally pants on head. I'm leaning over the first solution right now. Please make your case against me so I can see how full of shit you are.
Did he ever make a case against me while stating many times that I was his scumread ? No...
And Kush is now officially announcing that he is taking his holidays in the scumQT now that he is totally caught in the same bed with Eywa.
On December 17 2012 19:24 kushm4sta wrote:
who would use masonry that sounds like total shit compared to the others...
guess what. all activity I promised tomorrow is hereby postponed until Tuesday. Sorry.
Part II --- Defending Eywa
This part works regardless of Eywa alignment, but of course it is going to be even better if Eywa flips scum.
How could Kush hard defend Eywa so strongly ? What did Eywa do to convince him that he is town ?
I don't know, and kush didn't ever say why he thinks that Eywa is town (the newbie excuse doesn't count in my view).
Moreover, kush has already been caught scumslipping like Eywa did in the NMM XXIII game. That was almost exactly the same circumstances. How could have he forgotten it ?
He is being a total hypocrite in taking Eywa's defense. I think he is trying to defend a scumbuddy (scum kush is rather obvious) or trying to get town cred by defending a townie in the improbable case where Eywa flips town.
Please also notice how he is dismissing Hapa's case to concentrate on the scumslip only.
On another note, it's not like his scum read was attacking Eywa with a biased case. Hapa, the "strongest town", in his own words (scumslipping much ?), is pushing a good case against Eywa. How could he be so certain that Eywa is town ? The answer is simple: town kush wouldn't, it's just that we have here scum kush. Scum kush defending scum Eywa, most probably.
And I think Kush was also scumslipping here.
On December 17 2012 01:51 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 01:44 Eywa- wrote:On December 17 2012 01:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Care to elaborate? Just read up, he's hopped onto about 4-5 different people for no other reason than it seemed to be a good idea based on one previous post or because someone said it was a good idea. That is a scumhunting strategy. He is pressuring people. For that reason you want to lynch the strongest town in this game?
There was not a single mention of a possible town Hapa before this post. The previous mention of Hapa in kush's filter is here.
On December 16 2012 01:23 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
Hapa... I am concerned with this guy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he has a really good feel for dps meta and has caught scum dp many times. But I found his case on dp really underwhelming and reaching.
And then he drops the tunnel because of something he read irc...really?
*snip*
Part III --- Dumb on purpose
I don't want to comment these posts in details. Just make yourself your own opinion about it.
On December 17 2012 14:32 kushm4sta wrote:Exhibit A: Ewya's alleged scumslip Show nested quote +I don't know why you guys are standing for a townie that is supposedly "helping the town by bringing lurkers to post through accusing them" when that reason is a blatant lie.
Exhibit B: In which Ewya says im town Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 11:46 Eywa- wrote:
Any scum would have to be out of their mind to side with me right now given how hot of a target I am... I don't see how it can help them... Kush is a civilian (but of course, you can lynch him too given that civilians seem to want to lose around here). This is just one of many examples of his use of the word citizen. Ewya says CITIZEN when he means town and TOWNIE when he means player.Remember this is his first forum mafia game. The only experience he has had is IRL mafia.
So untrue...
On December 16 2012 13:55 kushm4sta wrote:
@djodref have you ever made a mega case as town?
Why did you feel to make THREE mega cases at this stage in the game?
Because I'm town you dumbass...
On December 16 2012 11:14 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
2 of the lurkers look like they are just gonna get straight up replaced -
Eywa
Mr cheesecake
so we probably dont have to worry about them.
Morbidus looks like he's starting to participate more now.
JieXian has put pressure on Mr Zentor, who actually has virtually no content
Threesr might be replaced he is doing so little. If he's not replaced I'm gonna be worried.
Mr. Zentor is the scariest lurker for me right now.
So when you look at it, the lurker issue really isn't that bad this game.
So thrawn, when you say lurkers are making this game "unplayable" that is kinda bs.
Lurker issue really isn't that bad this game ? For real ?
On December 16 2012 05:48 kushm4sta wrote:
Yup that's my rule for this game. kill lurkers before scumreads
Ah, nevermind...
Conclusion
Kush is most certainly scum
I still do prefer a Eywa lynch for tomorrow. Because, yeah, kush being kush, there is still a small chance for him to be town. 1% town chance for Eywa right now, 5% town chance for Kush.
GG guys,
Y u no concede ?[/QUOTE]
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I know it's a repost but I'm sure that nobody paid attention to this case...
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Just realized that I had forgot smthing...
##Unvote
##Vote Kush
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Kush
More stuff on Kush, his obsession with lurkers
Ok, right now, I really think that Kush is the best lynch for today. I'm pretty sure that he is mafia.
I strongly advise you to read his filter before reading this case. The new points I am bringing here are the following- Avoids contributing by being obsessed with lurkers
- Scumslip
Part I --- Lurker Obsession
My point here is that Kush unusual super strong stance on lurkers allows him to avoid contributing to find the mafia. Sure, he is making some comments, and mainly against me, but the majority of his D1 filter is speaking about the lurkers.
On December 15 2012 10:27 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
3. I am going to advocate the systematic extermination of lurkers. Yup I want to lynch unreadable over scumreads. And lurking makes you unreadable and immune to all efforts at scumhunting.
Fuck fake pressuring active people.by pretending we might vote them. IF there is a lurker I will push his lynch.
His opening post is very aggressive, but he doesn't try to convince people to follow his policy. There is no justification for this aggression. And that's why I think this stance is fake.
On December 16 2012 01:23 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
this game is full of lurkers, but I think most of them are going to get modkilled or replaced. I will vote for a lurker who is avoiding modkill, and right now this includes drazak and threesr.
The thing about the lurker policy is that you lynch any lurker, especially the ones who are going to be replaced. If a lurky mafia player gets replaced, he has won one day without contributing at all, for free.
On December 16 2012 05:48 kushm4sta wrote:
Yup that's my rule for this game. kill lurkers before scumreads
This statement is clearly showing an anti-town mentality. And it's reinforced by the fact that Kush was looking for lurkers to kill rather than scumreads during D1. Here is a typical contribution from Kush during D1.
On December 16 2012 11:14 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
2 of the lurkers look like they are just gonna get straight up replaced -
Eywa
Mr cheesecake
so we probably dont have to worry about them.
Morbidus looks like he's starting to participate more now.
JieXian has put pressure on Mr Zentor, who actually has virtually no content
Threesr might be replaced he is doing so little. If he's not replaced I'm gonna be worried.
Mr. Zentor is the scariest lurker for me right now.
So when you look at it, the lurker issue really isn't that bad this game.
So thrawn, when you say lurkers are making this game "unplayable" that is kinda bs.
Ok, I would understand that we could have enforced a strict "lynch a lurker" policy for this D1, given the participation levels, but my problem with Kush here is that he missed the opportunity to apply his policy on the most perfect target for a lurker lynch: threesr.
On December 17 2012 02:50 kushm4sta wrote:
we really need a vote count...
We only have 3 hours left... people should not be discussing anything but the lynch.
Who are teh viable lynches at this point?
Is anyone adverse to lynching a lurker?
I don't understand why Kush didn't go super mad against threesr. This guy was our lurkiest player by far. Where is the kush that should be spamming the thread to advocate a threesr lynch ? I didn't see him.
My conclusion is that Kush's stance on the lurkers this game was fake, and allowed him to avoid contributing in a constructive way. He has not done any sort of scumhunting, but rather has spread suspicion on players for free.
Moreover, he has been a while that Kush is not concerned with the "Lynch a Lurker" policy. This is something he has not even mentioned in Chrono Trigger, or the Acme Game. Where he was town.
He has nothing to justify this sudden change in his play. Did he have a bad experience with lurkers recently ? I don't think so...
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Aww shit, I fucked up in my posting, I wanted to preview...
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Here is Kush's scumslip
His stance on Hapa
On December 16 2012 01:23 kushm4sta wrote:
*snip*
Hapa... I am concerned with this guy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he has a really good feel for dps meta and has caught scum dp many times. But I found his case on dp really underwhelming and reaching.
And then he drops the tunnel because of something he read irc...really?
*snip*
Note that he doesn't care trying to figure out Hapa's alignment before the following post. No interactions with Hapa.
And then, suddenly !
On December 17 2012 01:51 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 01:44 Eywa- wrote:On December 17 2012 01:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Care to elaborate? Just read up, he's hopped onto about 4-5 different people for no other reason than it seemed to be a good idea based on one previous post or because someone said it was a good idea. That is a scumhunting strategy. He is pressuring people. For that reason you want to lynch the strongest town in this game?
Let's vote Kush, shall we ?
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I'm particularly interested in Jx and Eywa opinion on this lynch.
Could you guys give us your comments ?
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@ DYH
On December 18 2012 07:32 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:26 MrZentor wrote:
DYH, your case is bad.
Scum would have tried to shoot Hapa before DP.
And your whole case is based on that not being true.
Wrong, your case is based on that assumption being true, mine is not. My case is based on you pushing a strategy that would reveal whether hapa is blue or not when he is still potentially in danger of being silver shot. My case is based on acknowledging that you don't know exactly how scum are operating, which you clearly don't, because you want to lynch hapa.
How could be MrZ be scum if he doesn't know how the scumteam is operating ?
I think there is something wrong in this post. Honestly, I don't clearly understand what is his point against MrZentor here.
@ MrZentor
Why are you so obsessed with silver bullets ?
Could we agree that your speculation was useless now ?
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On December 18 2012 07:05 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:04 kushm4sta wrote:
@hapa it makes perfect sense to me why you are not dead. Why are you pretending it's a surprise?
Scum almost never kill the most obv nk because they think he might be protected. Thrawn's kill was brilliant, gives away basically nothing. would be like kill drazak
Sorry about the lateless, I've been having a lot of work to do and had some cold and needed to catch up on my sleep
I'll catch up with the thread but let me say that I've been giving MRCC a lot of shit for posting his case against thrawn and letting go right after that WITHOUT EVEN TRYING (before DP and hapa was around)
He said that he would push for thrawn is he could and all that.
Well now I can't pressure him on that point anymore
Hapa you're really breaking down I've been repeating that I changed my vote onto thrawn to pressure him.
I'm at page 64 and am going to the gym now
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On December 18 2012 07:24 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:22 Eywa- wrote:On December 18 2012 07:21 Hapahauli wrote:
I'm not convinced on Mr Cheese. I want to see JieXian dead first and foremost. Your cling to defend him suggests one thing, we have to kill him... and then you... or you and then him... Either way, rage on sir! I've posted why JieXian is scum. Several times. In my filter. JieXian wasn't voting for people he thought was scum. He voted the top scumread of his top scumread (thrawn, instead of voting CC). When I called him out for it, he flipped a shit and omgus'd me. He's scum dawg.
I was suspecting you ever since you ignored my questions on D1 and also due to your terrible case against morbid
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[b]@ Jiexan[/b
I'm really interested in your opinion on Kush when you come back and you read my cases. Would you like to lynch him today ?
I also recommend you to catch up with the whole thread before posting in the future...
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On December 18 2012 12:11 Eywa- wrote:
*snip*
Djoref is just... Well let's just say he's given just about everyone a criminal case which proves their guilt... This does not add to his credibility... This does not make him look good, makes him look scum. He's been head hunting for a while.
*snip*
What I'm doing is called scumhunting. I'm giving criminal cases on the people I'm suspicious of, to gauge their defense, and also to start constructive discussion about them from all the members. The problem here is that nobody commented nor addressed my cases so far.
It doesn't make me scum, it should make me town.
That's why I was keeping asking you for a "criminal case" against Cheesecake. I've read your cases but I didn't like them because I didn't understand what you were trying to prove. I like lists and concision.
So could you make a list with your main points against Cheesecake, please ?
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I have to get some sleep guys, I'll be here in your evening -> night
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On December 18 2012 04:59 Eywa- wrote:
Okay, so what I have to say about the situation right now is, the people I voted to blue are all townies and I'll vote to blue the same people every day until they're killed (which they haven't been yet).
Second, I just love how ALL talk about scumslips have been avoided ever since hapa jumped out and accidentally said he was scum... Sorry, not excusable as a "typo". Try being less stressed about getting exposed.
Please, discuss why hapa gets a free pass over his scumslip? If anything he should be nuked harder because he's an experienced player and for him to actually crack would be tough because he knows just how bad it is when you do... Yet he struggled so much with his emotions that he couldn't keep it together for his post... I really don't see how that is NOT a slip.
well because it's not in the scum's benefit to ride that scumslip train against one of their own (yet)
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On December 18 2012 08:05 Hapahauli wrote:*deep breath* So Regarding JieXian: He's simply not voting for people that he thinks is mafia. This post proves it: Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 05:53 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 05:45 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 05:42 JieXian wrote:shit it was about the acoltye = townie not a scumslip thing morbid is a bad idea I'm down for a mrcc lynch On December 17 2012 03:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 03:49 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 01:22 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Hey guys, shenanigans here being sorted out. I'm down for a Thrawn lynch, he's a sheeping scummy dude right meow. Thrawn is an Opportunist
+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2012 11:11 thrawn2112 wrote:ok ##Vote DjodrefShow nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:26 Djodref wrote:
Other than that, I would like everybody to give a little hindsight of their game experience, especially newbies, if there are some.
what kind of information are you looking for? Sheep on Djodref vote, hardcore. No explanation, just does it. Also, the question he asks is self-explanatory. On December 15 2012 12:13 thrawn2112 wrote:
I didn't th9nk hapa's case was super good but dp's reaction to it seems insane Slightly discredits Hapa's case, and takes the opportunity to acknowledge that DP looks scummy after an OMGUS vote (duh). He then unvotes to keep his options open. When Hapa makes his more fortified case, he suddenly believes it's some god-given scumhunting then votes for DP.
Wait, What's this?On December 15 2012 12:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
dp I don't think it's fair to accuse djo based on setup speculation meta because of 2 reasons
1. start of the game and everyone is lurking
2. this game doesn't have standard mechanics
Didn't Thrawn V OTE for Djo based on this exact thing? He was being obsessed with blue roles / witchhunter and Thrawn sheeped the vote, supposedly because of this. Now he thinks it's not fair to accuse him? On December 16 2012 10:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
oh sniped on the random lurker vote lol, sounds fun
##unvote
##Vote: Mr Cheesecake
pie is better and all you mo-fos need to start posting
Sheeps onto lurker vote opportunity. Underlined = scummiest shit ever townies like cheesecake over pie. On December 16 2012 11:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
ok here's what I probably mean about kush...
you mention his terrible ideas... yes the things he's said he'll do this game have been crazy, but that's his meta right? this game however, it seems like they are intentionally dumb. scum kush says crazier things than town kush.
he said he's not going to lynch me no matter what... is that a joke? an actual plan? the problem is I couldn't really tell.... it's so different from town oriented thinking I don't know what to make of it. the only reason I have to suspect that town kush could possibly have said that is because he's lynched me over and over for the same reasons and I keep flipping town. PROBABLY mean? What? How do you probably mean something...? Town mean things genuinely, scum try to emulate they are meaning something. The rest of this post is garbage--he comes to no read on Kush at all, just flip-flops between the possibility of town kush not wanting to lynch him and the alternative scum motivation.
Above all, Thrawn doesn't seem to care who is lynched:On December 15 2012 11:52 thrawn2112 wrote:
this conversation between the few of us is getting very tiresome
i'll lynch lurkers
LURKERS
i will happily lynch you Okay so he wants to lynch a lurker. By all means, a viable strategy considering the circumstance. But he also wants to lynch Djo, JX, DP... I'm confused. I don't see strong scum reads from him other than on JX due to obvious scumslips. He is sheeping a ton and doesn't seem too caring of who he wants to get lynched. Just look at this flip-floppiness between lurker lynching and lynching his top scumread.On December 16 2012 20:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
I suggest all town people be around during the lynch if (when?) we decide to lynch a rando lurker Maybe we could lynch a lurker! That sounds like a good idea! On December 16 2012 20:41 thrawn2112 wrote:
i still really really like it But I still really really like a JX lynch! On December 16 2012 20:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
but who knows, perhaps some lurker will die instead But maybe we could lynch a lurker! I'm all for that! Why is Thrawn so indecisive?On December 16 2012 14:04 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 01:06 JieXian wrote:
I was out the whole day man relax. You guys didn't understand my post.
I found what Dp and hapa was saying to be weird BUT I changed my mind as I kept on reading the thread (notice how those 2 points were quite early on)
no this is a lie Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 14:47 JieXian wrote:Hi and sorry I'm late, I'm at +8GMT and I didn't wake up as early as DarthPunk At first I was really confused (scummy read) about hapa's mindless babbling about 13-3, which ISN'T RELEVANT to anything at all because you can't change anything except stir the discussion towards the wrong direction. but i think he's town because xLater I got a stronger read from DP from his ridiculous "pressuring" above all for a point that's completely moot. but now i think he's town because xDjo why did you vote for Mr Zentor But above all there's Mr Zentor's relative non-chalance to everything seems to trump everything else as doesn't seem to give a damn to anything as townies are well on their way to lynching one another ##Vote MrZentor the red parts are what I just now added to the 2nd post that would make the 1st post true. I bolded "but above all" because that implies you still hold your suspicions about hapa/dp. J scum-slipped hard, he lied about the scumslip, he's a lurker... and he's scum He states JX is scum. THEN WHY IS HE KEEPING HIS OPTIONS OPEN LIKE THIS? Town Thrawn would want to push this JX lynch into the ground, not be ready to jump off the wagon at the last minute to lynch a lurker. Thrawn's general posting in context of the thread seems very opportunistic. The way he jumps on JX's vote post of Mr.Z is just that, scum trying to find easy things to tackle people on. I have no clue, if town, why he's willing to lynch a lurker right now if he's set on JX being scum.
##Vote: Thrawn On December 17 2012 02:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:50 kushm4sta wrote:
we really need a vote count...
We only have 3 hours left... people should not be discussing anything but the lynch.
Who are teh viable lynches at this point?
Is anyone adverse to lynching a lurker? Yes we need a vote count. I want to lynch Thrawn but I don't think anyone is biting atm... Who'd you have in mind for lurkers? On December 17 2012 02:52 JieXian wrote:
read my filter please, I'm still waiting for his reply On December 17 2012 02:57 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
JX, that post wasn't even directed towards / had anything to do with you. So you posted your long wall of text case against thrawn for shits and giggles? I get it Jx, you're really paranoid. If I could lynch thrawn I would. But apparently everyone wants you dead, and I can see why. WHY ARENT YOU LYNCHING THRAWN NOW THEN? BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BRO, WHAT U WANT FROM ME. If anyone else wants to vote thrawn, please do so. Ok join me #Vote thrawn2122On December 17 2012 05:37 Hapahauli wrote:REPOST: Just scanned Morbidius's filter. I wouldn't mind lynching him. There was the pre-emptive defensiveness that MrZ brought up earlier, as well as this: On December 17 2012 04:29 Morbidius wrote: On December 17 2012 04:16 MrZentor wrote:
Kush, I'd rather lynch scum than a lurker.
We should kill Morbidius. Hmm i made some light accusations against you and now you're full on calling me scum? That's quite the overeaction,which certainly doesn't help your case. I already had in mind the fact that you're either very noob town or noobish mafia. Either way a flip is worth more than you. ##unvote
##vote MrZentorJustifying lynching a "noob town." I don't think these things are 100% allignment indicative, but it's certainly scummy and the best chance we have for a red flip IMO. if MrZ was town he was playing noob enough for me to go nuts for him He doesn't have a scumread on thrawn. By his own admission, he voted thrawn to "dare" Mr. CC to vote thrawn. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386816¤tpage=42#834He NEVER has a scumread on thrawn in his filter. He straight up voted a guy who his top scumread was pushing. Where's the town motivation in that? There is none. Then we get to the "hapa's scum 'cause he's not dead" stuff. Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 02:37 JieXian wrote:On December 18 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 02:27 JieXian wrote:On December 18 2012 02:22 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 02:17 JieXian wrote:On December 18 2012 01:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 18 2012 01:52 Eywa- wrote:
I'd like to talk about witchcraft votes... Shall we?
Let's pile some votes onto any of this trio and see if they die... Should be a pretty clear indicator right? How do you know the witchhunter didn't shoot twice already? because hapa's alive So I'm town. Lol. because scum can't get shot by scum vigis............... ??????????????????? No see that doesn't make much sense. Why would me being alive explain how you know scum didn't take a second shot? beacuse it would have been for the next top witchcraft candidate ie you? He harps many times about how I'm the only other possible witchcraft candidate in the game. But... Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 03:03 JieXian wrote:On December 18 2012 03:01 MrZentor wrote:
Kush, Eywa,and JieXian, did you guys vote for Hapa? eywa and I certainly didn't He didn't vote me. This makes no sense. Apparently there were other viable candidates (the ones he voted), yet he believes I was the only other possible one. JieXian is scum. His actions make no sense.
You're appearing to breaking down with your growing desperation that I expect a handshake from you for my town play after the game. I'm only replying because there's other people I need to convince >_>
My justification for Thrawn is almost 24 hours old:
On December 18 2012 01:03 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 00:48 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 18 2012 00:47 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 05:45 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
If I could lynch thrawn I would. But apparently everyone wants you dead, and I can see why. On December 17 2012 06:02 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 05:58 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 05:58 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 05:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Lol JX, what reason do you have to vote thrawn? Also, didn't you think I was scum? Why would you agree with me. You seriously should have read my filter wth I'm trying to swing the vote away from morbid shit And onto any other random ass person? Rofl. well you did post a case against the random ass person On December 17 2012 05:53 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 05:45 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 05:42 JieXian wrote:shit it was about the acoltye = townie not a scumslip thing morbid is a bad idea I'm down for a mrcc lynch On December 17 2012 03:54 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 03:49 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 01:22 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Hey guys, shenanigans here being sorted out. I'm down for a Thrawn lynch, he's a sheeping scummy dude right meow. Thrawn is an Opportunist
+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2012 11:11 thrawn2112 wrote:ok ##Vote DjodrefShow nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:26 Djodref wrote:
Other than that, I would like everybody to give a little hindsight of their game experience, especially newbies, if there are some.
what kind of information are you looking for? Sheep on Djodref vote, hardcore. No explanation, just does it. Also, the question he asks is self-explanatory. On December 15 2012 12:13 thrawn2112 wrote:
I didn't th9nk hapa's case was super good but dp's reaction to it seems insane Slightly discredits Hapa's case, and takes the opportunity to acknowledge that DP looks scummy after an OMGUS vote (duh). He then unvotes to keep his options open. When Hapa makes his more fortified case, he suddenly believes it's some god-given scumhunting then votes for DP.
Wait, What's this?On December 15 2012 12:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
dp I don't think it's fair to accuse djo based on setup speculation meta because of 2 reasons
1. start of the game and everyone is lurking
2. this game doesn't have standard mechanics
Didn't Thrawn V OTE for Djo based on this exact thing? He was being obsessed with blue roles / witchhunter and Thrawn sheeped the vote, supposedly because of this. Now he thinks it's not fair to accuse him? On December 16 2012 10:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
oh sniped on the random lurker vote lol, sounds fun
##unvote
##Vote: Mr Cheesecake
pie is better and all you mo-fos need to start posting
Sheeps onto lurker vote opportunity. Underlined = scummiest shit ever townies like cheesecake over pie. On December 16 2012 11:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
ok here's what I probably mean about kush...
you mention his terrible ideas... yes the things he's said he'll do this game have been crazy, but that's his meta right? this game however, it seems like they are intentionally dumb. scum kush says crazier things than town kush.
he said he's not going to lynch me no matter what... is that a joke? an actual plan? the problem is I couldn't really tell.... it's so different from town oriented thinking I don't know what to make of it. the only reason I have to suspect that town kush could possibly have said that is because he's lynched me over and over for the same reasons and I keep flipping town. PROBABLY mean? What? How do you probably mean something...? Town mean things genuinely, scum try to emulate they are meaning something. The rest of this post is garbage--he comes to no read on Kush at all, just flip-flops between the possibility of town kush not wanting to lynch him and the alternative scum motivation.
Above all, Thrawn doesn't seem to care who is lynched:On December 15 2012 11:52 thrawn2112 wrote:
this conversation between the few of us is getting very tiresome
i'll lynch lurkers
LURKERS
i will happily lynch you Okay so he wants to lynch a lurker. By all means, a viable strategy considering the circumstance. But he also wants to lynch Djo, JX, DP... I'm confused. I don't see strong scum reads from him other than on JX due to obvious scumslips. He is sheeping a ton and doesn't seem too caring of who he wants to get lynched. Just look at this flip-floppiness between lurker lynching and lynching his top scumread.On December 16 2012 20:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
I suggest all town people be around during the lynch if (when?) we decide to lynch a rando lurker Maybe we could lynch a lurker! That sounds like a good idea! On December 16 2012 20:41 thrawn2112 wrote:
i still really really like it But I still really really like a JX lynch! On December 16 2012 20:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
but who knows, perhaps some lurker will die instead But maybe we could lynch a lurker! I'm all for that! Why is Thrawn so indecisive?On December 16 2012 14:04 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 01:06 JieXian wrote:
I was out the whole day man relax. You guys didn't understand my post.
I found what Dp and hapa was saying to be weird BUT I changed my mind as I kept on reading the thread (notice how those 2 points were quite early on)
no this is a lie Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 14:47 JieXian wrote:Hi and sorry I'm late, I'm at +8GMT and I didn't wake up as early as DarthPunk At first I was really confused (scummy read) about hapa's mindless babbling about 13-3, which ISN'T RELEVANT to anything at all because you can't change anything except stir the discussion towards the wrong direction. but i think he's town because xLater I got a stronger read from DP from his ridiculous "pressuring" above all for a point that's completely moot. but now i think he's town because xDjo why did you vote for Mr Zentor But above all there's Mr Zentor's relative non-chalance to everything seems to trump everything else as doesn't seem to give a damn to anything as townies are well on their way to lynching one another ##Vote MrZentor the red parts are what I just now added to the 2nd post that would make the 1st post true. I bolded "but above all" because that implies you still hold your suspicions about hapa/dp. J scum-slipped hard, he lied about the scumslip, he's a lurker... and he's scum He states JX is scum. THEN WHY IS HE KEEPING HIS OPTIONS OPEN LIKE THIS? Town Thrawn would want to push this JX lynch into the ground, not be ready to jump off the wagon at the last minute to lynch a lurker. Thrawn's general posting in context of the thread seems very opportunistic. The way he jumps on JX's vote post of Mr.Z is just that, scum trying to find easy things to tackle people on. I have no clue, if town, why he's willing to lynch a lurker right now if he's set on JX being scum.
##Vote: Thrawn On December 17 2012 02:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:50 kushm4sta wrote:
we really need a vote count...
We only have 3 hours left... people should not be discussing anything but the lynch.
Who are teh viable lynches at this point?
Is anyone adverse to lynching a lurker? Yes we need a vote count. I want to lynch Thrawn but I don't think anyone is biting atm... Who'd you have in mind for lurkers? On December 17 2012 02:52 JieXian wrote:
read my filter please, I'm still waiting for his reply On December 17 2012 02:57 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
JX, that post wasn't even directed towards / had anything to do with you. So you posted your long wall of text case against thrawn for shits and giggles? I get it Jx, you're really paranoid. If I could lynch thrawn I would. But apparently everyone wants you dead, and I can see why. WHY ARENT YOU LYNCHING THRAWN NOW THEN? BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE WANTS TO BRO, WHAT U WANT FROM ME. If anyone else wants to vote thrawn, please do so. Ok join me #Vote thrawn2122 Mrcc care to explain all that? Makes a case on thrawn -> drops it -> I push it -> claims he's not talking to me -> said he'd lynch thrawn -> calls him a random ass person HELLO? I made a case on thrawn. I dropped it because nobody else wanted to lynch him. Getting 6 other votes onto him would have been impossible. You "push it".. that's one vote. I get my vote off Morb and risk a no-lynch. I want to lynch somebody and not nobody. I called him a random ass person because you have no reason to vote him, I do. let's look at your justifications on your vote for morbid Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:58 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:58 kushm4sta wrote:
cheesey baby, will you lurker lynch with me? morbidus sound good? Ill think about it honey. Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 04:46 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Fuck it, may as well...
##Unvote
##Vote Morbidius L O fucking L Here are my reasons to vote for thrawnShow nested quote +On December 16 2012 23:53 JieXian wrote:On December 16 2012 20:47 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 16 2012 20:45 JieXian wrote:On December 16 2012 20:40 thrawn2112 wrote:
frustrating, uncooperative, etc Your inference is based on the assumption/information that he's townie lol you should have just called it a scum slip if that's what you're trying to implymy read on zentor is still null. hahaha :D just probing man but now that you've mentioned it I can imagine the mafia QT to be you asking him to post something and being all frustrated because he's so uncooperativeReading through your filter I can see NOT ONE single post of you asking him to "participate". I see one from drazak. All you did was say you had a null vote and attack me and kush who were directing attention towards him. Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:52 JieXian wrote:On December 17 2012 02:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:50 kushm4sta wrote:
we really need a vote count...
We only have 3 hours left... people should not be discussing anything but the lynch.
Who are teh viable lynches at this point?
Is anyone adverse to lynching a lurker? Yes we need a vote count. I want to lynch Thrawn but I don't think anyone is biting atm... Who'd you have in mind for lurkers? read my filter please, I'm still waiting for his reply Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:54 JieXian wrote:I'll do it for you On December 16 2012 23:53 JieXian wrote:On December 16 2012 20:47 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 16 2012 20:45 JieXian wrote:On December 16 2012 20:40 thrawn2112 wrote:
frustrating, uncooperative, etc Your inference is based on the assumption/information that he's townie lol you should have just called it a scum slip if that's what you're trying to imply my read on zentor is still null. hahaha :D just probing man but now that you've mentioned it I can imagine the mafia QT to be you asking him to post something and being all frustrated because he's so uncooperative Reading through your filter I can see NOT ONE single post of you asking him to "participate". I see one from drazak. All you did was say you had a null vote and attack me and kush who were directing attention towards him. and hapa, I've changed my mind about providing reads on those 3 people and I think I shouldn't post read on them for now. For now the burning question is: What the hell are you contradicting yourself that badly? I made the most controversial post here and instantly got 4-5 votes on me. You yourself thought my reads were terrible Do you know what happened after you posted the case on thrawn? you chatted with eywa against going for hapa Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:03 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:00 Eywa- wrote:On December 17 2012 01:53 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 01:44 Eywa- wrote:On December 17 2012 01:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Care to elaborate? Just read up, he's hopped onto about 4-5 different people for no other reason than it seemed to be a good idea based on one previous post or because someone said it was a good idea. Why don't you make a case, then, if it's scummy behavior? Because people who play are meant to read the thread, I made the point of "why", if you read you'll understand the justification. Whether or not you agree is up to you. Town want to convince others that their top scumread is actually scum. Presenting a case with justification does that. Parking your vote on Hapa and telling people to go searching on their own isn't going to convince people. Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 02:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On December 17 2012 02:50 kushm4sta wrote:
we really need a vote count...
We only have 3 hours left... people should not be discussing anything but the lynch.
Who are teh viable lynches at this point?
Is anyone adverse to lynching a lurker? Yes we need a vote count. I want to lynch Thrawn but I don't think anyone is biting atm... Who'd you have in mind for lurkers? and GAVE UP No one influential came in to discredit you yet -- neither hapa nor DP. And you shove away the only person who agreed with you = me
I didn't vote for you (for witchcraft) because you ignored my question since the 2nd half of D1 and I'm sure you haven't answered it yet.
On December 18 2012 02:59 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 02:49 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 02:44 MrZentor wrote:
I hope you don't honestly believe that. I could say the same. But clearly you do. On December 18 2012 02:44 JieXian wrote:On December 18 2012 02:21 Hapahauli wrote:
No JX, I'm questioning why you never explained your read. It's pretty damn easy to say "LOL HE"S TOWN." What's difficult is the justification. You provided none.
Where was your justification for the Morbidius read?
Secondly, I don't see where my "contradiction" is or whatever. You didn't get votes on you because of your reads - you got votes on you because people thought you scumslipped. The actual reads themselves were rather uncontroversial, as I've explained a bunch of times. people thought I scumslipped because I gave you and dp suspicion and then called you both townies my supposedly inconsistent read (it was just a train of thought thing) was the sole reason for my near lynch my "read" was intepreted as a scumslip oh my god out of respect for your intelligence you can't possibly be town You're not getting what I'm saying at all. Yes, people thought you scumslipped for your inconsistent read. However, I'm not talking about that when I say your reads are "non-controversial." At that point in the game, it was obvious that me and DP were town. Virtually everyone thought so. You also went after a lynch-bait type player in MrZ. Those are "non-controversial" reads in the sense that you didn't do anything useful. Your read on me and DP was unoriginal (since everyone thought we were town), and your top scumread was just the "troll" of the thread. Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:55 Djodref wrote:On December 15 2012 10:49 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 10:44 Djodref wrote:
Yeah, okay, but I really think that we should avoid it if we can.
I know it's going to be very difficult, but we have to refrain ourselves from doing it while the Witch Hunter is alive... The thing is that you can't live in fear of things like that. I mean when it really comes down to it... who cares about blue roles? A town can win without blues. All we can do is play the game and try to find mafia. If someone gets shot, so be it. In fact I'm half tempted at this point to have a policy of never voting blues. That way, we'd have a 10-3 setup of 3 mafia goons vs 10 VTs, which IMO is town favored. You can only vote for one no-vote. Do you have even Witchcraft vote Hapa ? Maybe you would be more interested in the way you have to use them if you did ? ##Unvote
##Vote Hapa Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:41 Hapahauli wrote:Why DP is Scum+ Show Spoiler +
Strange Tunnel on DjoOn December 15 2012 11:05 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:55 Djodref wrote:On December 15 2012 10:49 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 10:44 Djodref wrote:
Yeah, okay, but I really think that we should avoid it if we can.
I know it's going to be very difficult, but we have to refrain ourselves from doing it while the Witch Hunter is alive... The thing is that you can't live in fear of things like that. I mean when it really comes down to it... who cares about blue roles? A town can win without blues. All we can do is play the game and try to find mafia. If someone gets shot, so be it. In fact I'm half tempted at this point to have a policy of never voting blues. That way, we'd have a 10-3 setup of 3 mafia goons vs 10 VTs, which IMO is town favored. You can only vote for one no-vote. Do you have even Witchcraft vote Hapa ? Maybe you would be more interested in the way you have to use them if you did ? ##Unvote
##Vote Hapa Wow your an idiot. ##Vote: Djodref.Votes Zentor for meaningless self vote. That was obviously meaningless. Doesn't want to give town reads which is just ridiculous. Votes for Hapa whom actually brings up a really good point. 13-3 all vt all goon is actually super town favored.
There is no way a rational townie could believe hapa is scum based on the game so far.So either Djo is being retarded or he is scum. Either way that is enough to get my vote day one. Two things to note about the red/bolded passage: 1) DP does everything short of sucking my dick here. He buddies me just about as hard as you can in this passage. For example, I made no claims that a 10-3 setup is "super town favored." Nor is it actually "super town favored." Yet he goes and exhalts my idea as "really really good." 2) One of DP's main reasons for suspecting Djo at this point is that Djo disagrees with my assessment on the 10-3 setup thing. Part of the implication here is that DP agrees thtaThis is odd, considering his next post. On December 15 2012 11:21 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 11:19 Djodref wrote:On December 15 2012 11:13 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:
I'm not retarded, I'm town, I'm interested into the way I should use my witchcraft votes, obviously you both don't So answer me this Djo: 1) Why are you so fearful of the witchhunter? 2) Why are you pushing a plan that compromises our scumhunting? 3) True or false: a 10-3 VT-Goon setup is town favored. 1) Because I don't want us to lose blues / obvious townies 2) I honestly think that we can scumhunt without stating our townreads 3) True, but impossible in this game 1- you are valuing blues to highly 2- That is a ridiculous proposition 3- So you were voting someone for a plan that was impossible. But you knew that. So you are essentially voting for someone for not reading the OP?
Do you think town or scum are less likely to read the OP? Despite agreeing with my "10-3 setup" stuff earlier, DP all of a sudden is assuming that Djodref is correct in his setup theory without any clarification from the mod in the mean time. This doesn't make sense at all. How could you agree with my comments and speculation, then go and post something like this? Very simply, DP lost track of the reasons he was tunneling Djo. His tunneling doesn't have a townie thought-process behind it - he's just trying to heap as much suspicion on Djo as he can. This is pretty clear by his next post on the subject: On December 15 2012 11:47 DarthPunk wrote:
Holy shit. Djo be scummy. Look at that un-OMGUS as soon as Hapa unvotes. also. Both his votes have been weak as shit.
Djo. Are scum or town less likely to read the OP? This sounds so desperate to me. It's very clear by now that the argument between me and Djo is simply a misunderstanding of the OP, yet DP twists the hell out of his words and flips a shit.
Other Stuff:Firstly, DP's first post: On December 15 2012 08:48 DarthPunk wrote:
sup kids. I hate policy talk. That is my policy. I am vanilla town. The only purpose of this post is to stifle discussion. There's zero reason you should be so against policy talk before it even starts. Secondly, when I vote him - mind you I'm the ONLY person to be suspicious of him so far - he whines about it: On December 15 2012 11:55 DarthPunk wrote:
Fuck I hate playing town. People always want to lynch me day one.
Source: my last three town games. and this game. The whining is completely disproportionate to the suspicion put on him. In addition, DP doesn't hate playing town. Fact. Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 12:10 DarthPunk wrote:On December 15 2012 12:02 Hapahauli wrote:Well the problem is that DP tunneled you (Djo) without having ever even asked or cared about one of the key points he found you scummy for. DP found you initially scummy because he seemingly believed that a 10/3 setup was achievable. On December 15 2012 11:05 DarthPunk wrote:On December 15 2012 10:55 Djodref wrote:On December 15 2012 10:49 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 10:44 Djodref wrote:
Yeah, okay, but I really think that we should avoid it if we can.
I know it's going to be very difficult, but we have to refrain ourselves from doing it while the Witch Hunter is alive... The thing is that you can't live in fear of things like that. I mean when it really comes down to it... who cares about blue roles? A town can win without blues. All we can do is play the game and try to find mafia. If someone gets shot, so be it. In fact I'm half tempted at this point to have a policy of never voting blues. That way, we'd have a 10-3 setup of 3 mafia goons vs 10 VTs, which IMO is town favored. You can only vote for one no-vote. Do you have even Witchcraft vote Hapa ? Maybe you would be more interested in the way you have to use them if you did ? ##Unvote
##Vote Hapa Wow your an idiot. ##Vote: Djodref. Votes Zentor for meaningless self vote. That was obviously meaningless. Doesn't want to give town reads which is just ridiculous. Votes for Hapa whom actually brings up a really good point. 13-3 all vt all goon is actually super town favored.There is no way a rational townie could believe hapa is scum based on the game so far. So either Djo is being retarded or he is scum. Either way that is enough to get my vote day one. But as it turns out, Djo was right. And then DP turns around and completely forgets about it and tunnels him for the opposite. On December 15 2012 11:47 DarthPunk wrote:
Holy shit. Djo be scummy. Look at that un-OMGUS as soon as Hapa unvotes. also. Both his votes have been weak as shit.
Djo. Are scum or town less likely to read the OP? But on top of all this, he has one vote on him, and he's already whining... On December 15 2012 11:55 DarthPunk wrote:
Fuck I hate playing town. People always want to lynch me day one.
Source: my last three town games. and this game. Lynch this sucker. He's scum. No. the vote wasn't for voting against your plan. It was for voting you when there was absolutely no reason for you to be scum. I didn't really care about the plan at all. It was also for being an idiot about not sharing town reads. I didn't change the reason Ivoted for him. The reason I voted him still stands regardless of the fate of your 'idea' he was voting you for absolutely no reason and was justifying it with something that was not alignment indicative. The thing I noted later was not the 'new' reason for my vote but an ADDITIONAL reason. Also whining is not alignment indicative. Which you should well know. I whined as town in Mario. Your case is a dog that needs to be put down. I actually can't see town hapa making a case this horrible. But I have seen scum hapa make shitty cases like this. ##unvote
##vote: hapa ........hello?
Of course you're scum because you're not dead. Everyone during D1 besides eywa and I thought you were townie until N1 came about
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hold on while I catch up. going to respond to a few things and practice my guitar because I've got a jammign session tomorrow
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EPT
