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On December 04 2012 22:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
I could say that about you too
I agree with CC in the last game, meta over 2-3 games is not really identifiable though :/
I think we should scumhunt using more normal scumhunting methods.
Yeah, I know you could say that about me. I have almost certainly played completely different from last game.
But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure.
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On December 04 2012 15:59 Kickstart wrote:Right, I know it is early in the game but I am just going to throw this out there and try to make it as comprehensive as I can to try and get some real conversation going. So far I have some suspicions on Yamato and Rad. (I will also note that as an aside that Rad defended Yamato against one of my questions but association cases are bad day 1, just interesting that there are two people I find suspicious and one is defending the other.) Yamato77As I have stated before, I find Yamato's incessant policy talk a bit suspicious and that was the first thing to draw my attention to him. I have to look at it and see what his possible intentions could be. As town, policy talk is ok to start with, but I think it is best to say what needs to be said and not dwell on it much, where as scum would try and drown the thread with as much policy talk as possible as it is really unlikely to gain any useful information from it. Taking a look at Yamato's filter shows that most of it is policy talk and then he has an exchange with Axl. Now on his points against Axl I am in agreement. Axl is posting way too much in the way of "I am a noob and everyone else here is better than me" and things of that sort, and I too expect this to end. But I am not sure if the way Yamato reacted to this is town oriented. I can't help but feel that from a town perspective, someone would be a bit more helpful and not putting so much pressure on him and then throwing a vote on him when he doesn't respond. To elaborate a bit: So far Axl is putting out this vibe of being a noobie. Now I won't say town or scum because he is not doing a great job of answering questions and is really posting way too much about how noobie he thinks he is. To me, a town would look at this and react by first encouraging Axl but then pushing him slightly. A good example would be to give some support but to remind him that he needs to just post what he is thinking and why for the sake of town clarity. Here is my post directed at Axl: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:11 Kickstart wrote:
Axle being new is not a bad thing and being unsure isn't. In my first game I didn't really know what I was doing either (and to say I know exactly what I am doing now would be a stretch) but I just tried to be as honest as I could and put my thoughts and opinions out there and that alone will show what your intentions are. If you are town, and you tell everyone what you think and why, then you have done your job (as far as confirming your "townyness" (or whatever the right word is) is concerned), the only other thing to do is to try and find scum, but it should be clear who you think is scum when you give your thoughts and the reasoning behind them.
Also, if you haven't already, contact the coaches, they signed up because they want to help so don't be afraid to talk with them. [that is true for everyone in the thread] I gave as much support as I could but I also made it clear that it is important for Axl to post what he is thinking and why; and note that other players reacted in much the same way as I did. Now look at the way Yamato reacts to Axl: Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:19 yamato77 wrote:On December 04 2012 12:16 AxleGreaser wrote:On December 04 2012 11:22 yamato77 wrote:On December 04 2012 11:19 AxleGreaser wrote:On December 04 2012 11:09 jidolboy wrote:On December 04 2012 11:03 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@jidolboy
What do you believe is the best thing for a good town atmosphere Day 1?
I'm not too sure but talking about random things is a good way to tart guess. I mean there is nothing else to talk about because nothing major had happened yet The social parts of the discussion break the ice and get things going. The on topic parts, such as what is our plan and objective let you see if people are deflecting away from anything. Not to badger you, but do you have thoughts on lurker lynching? Or any ideas about day 1 town plans? your question has two parts. What were you trying to find out when you asked this question. What did you want to achieve. Or any ideas about day 1 town plans? Lurker lynch discussion IS a day one plan in my opinion, at least early on where people don't have much to talk about anyway. You weren't responding so I decided to ask you again, because your input is valuable to MY evaluation process. So in essence it's the same question. Either you participate in the lurker lynch discussion or offer up your own plan of action for town day one. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:20 yamato77 wrote:
EBWOP: Or you lurk and avoid my questions until I vote for you. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:38 yamato77 wrote:
By the way right now it seems like you're avoiding me. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote:
EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool.
##Vote AxleGreaser This is almost the exact opposite reaction that I and pretty much everyone else in the thread have displayed in regards to Axl. Yamato is being really aggressive (I used the term badgering earlier). He doesn't see that there is a timid first timer and try and be encouraging but productive, he instead seems to try and take this opportunity to attack and throw his vote onto a noobie town.
My strategy this game is far more aggressive than it was the previous game at the beginning. If I am town, my main objective day 1, especially early, is to provoke discussion and responses. The more information I can garner from people, the stronger my reads on them can become. Up to that point, only Axle had seemed to willingly ignore me so I went after him. People that don't want to give up information are either scum or blue, because they both have something to hide. I suppose I assumed that Axle was doing this intentionally but it seems like he was ignoring me rather absentmindedly.
What my focus now has become is why you have started to throw suspicion around on players who are looking into people's play early. A lot of your posting this game has been about "this looks suspicious" or something of that nature. Everything can "look suspicious" from a town POV, but you feel the need to say it a lot. Why?
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On December 04 2012 23:35 AxleGreaser wrote:
I am already aware your play is different. Not really interested in that difference.
I am interested in your understanding of the reason why Town does things and why scum does the same or different things.
Was this post directed at me? Or Oats?
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I feel like a lot of these Q&A posts could be avoided if Axle was more precise in who he is asking each question and what he is referring to when he answers them. Right now a lot of his posting is difficult to decipher because of the proliferation of pronouns without antecedents.
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Oats I don't understand how you say you have a scum read on me and then attack kick for the same read.
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CC, do you think kick's play thus far has been odd or not? I get the feeling you're defending him.
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so what? Do you think his FoS of me was justified? You seem more preoccupied with Oats' vote than you are of why he thinks kick is scummy. If you think he was justified and I was being scummy in pressuring Axle then fine, but if you don't think he was justified then why are you criticising Oats?
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Well if you agree it wasn't justified then what tactic do you suppose we should use to draw out the motivations? Isn't Oats' vote going to force kick into explaining himself?
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No, it is worth talking about because you have yet to adequately explain yourself.
Oats is voting for Kick to make him explain his shoddy reasoning behind throwing suspicion on me, something I agree with. Then you attack Oats based largely on the fact that you don't like the vote. Why would town CC attack Oats for pressuring kick unless he didn't agree with this logic?
Stop trying to change the subject.
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Also if it takes you nine minutes to type three lines you nee typing lessons.
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Stop dodging my question. If you don't agree with Oats' vote, as you claim, you need a better reason than your nitpick of kick's posting not being alignment indicative. It's a pressure play. Of course you can't indicate alignment from so little but you have to do something to draw more information out.
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Ok, so you agree that Oats could conceivably find kick suspicious? Then you are basically only disagreeing with his method of applying pressure which is a stylistic choice. Why criticise Oats for making a town favored play if you think it might actually catch scum?
Unless, that is, you know kick isn't scum.
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Yes, I know all that and I don't see the point in doing it if you are town. You are looking for scum, not criticising other players for their arguments. You admitted that kick could be seen as suspicious so why wouldn't you just let kick respond to Oats instead of harping on him pointlessly?
I do, however, see the scum motivation. Scum CC would see this as an opportunity to look like he's putting pressure on people while drawing little real attention to himself because he never offers his own opinion. It is pulling teeth to get you to give any information, why?
If you are town you would cooperate.
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Also funny is that you call this discussion pointless when your criticism of Oats was even more so.
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On December 05 2012 03:28 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:17 yamato77 wrote:
Yes, I know all that and I don't see the point in doing it if you are town. You are looking for scum, not criticising other players for their arguments. You admitted that kick could be seen as suspicious so why wouldn't you just let kick respond to Oats instead of harping on him pointlessly?
I do, however, see the scum motivation. Scum CC would see this as an opportunity to look like he's putting pressure on people while drawing little real attention to himself because he never offers his own opinion. It is pulling teeth to get you to give any information, why?
If you are town you would cooperate. Pulling teeth? You don't want any information from me, just this useless fluff about why I thought Oat's reasons for the vote were invalid which I already gave you. If I was town I would cooperate... cooperate with what? I put my opinion out there, and you're turning it into something that's not cooperating with town functionality. It's my opinion and I put it out there - deal with it. So I should just sit back and agree that Kickstart is scummy because of these reasons? Does that really help town functionality? Sorry, I don't think he is that scummy. I'm not cooperating with the popular idea because I don't see a reason to. Cooperating with people who could be scum trying to push a mislynch, no less.
I want to know your motivations for doing it. As I've said twice before, I don't think town CC would criticize a player for putting pressure on a player you DID admit had the possibility of being scummy. I do think scum CC would do this.
You have also failed to give any real read on kickstart. You've talked about Oats' points but never really made your own as to whether he is or isn't.
"Sitting back" and "agreeing that Kickstart as scummy" are not the same thing. You could have refrained from commenting on Oats' case but you chose to nitpick it instead. Why would town CC nitpick a town-favored play?
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Oh, excuse me, there's your really noncommittal read on kick.
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On December 05 2012 03:32 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
I'm just pointing out that those aren't generally scum traits....
On December 05 2012 02:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
The first two points aren't "scummy" as he claims, the last point kind of is but it could go either way.
If it "kind of is" a scummy trait then why not leave Oats alone and let kick respond to the post to see which way it DOES go?
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The play doesn't make sense to me, but whatever. You'll just WIFOM me to death anyway.
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The single point (not points, mind you) you made, that others have repeated, is that I was too aggressive in pursuing my read on Axle. Is that really a scum trait, kick?
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So different is bad now or something? You never really explained why a scum would want to make people answer their questions. You never explained why scum would be aggressive in their pursuit of a player in order to determine whether he was newbie town or not. All you did was say, "That looks suspicious".
I'm not impressed.
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EPT
