EPTChrono Trigger Mafia - Page 253
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:42 phagga wrote: @Hapa I'm pissed because he builds a case on me, does not answer my questions and then leaves the game off before I have a chance to discuss both things with him. That's just not sportsmanlike. I suppose that's fair. So you mind discussing this with me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=251#5017 | ||
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iamperfection
United States9640 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:46 iamperfection wrote: hapa wouldn't it have been much easier and less sticking his neck out to bus sandro right from the get go? It seemed like the only 2 real candidates for lynch were sandro and to lesser extend toad. Do you interpret his suspicion of CaveJohnson and GoodKarma as sticking his neck out? I certainly don't. He votes CaveJohnson for literally no rationale. He calls him "bright red" on his list, but never elaborates, while listing rationale to call 4 other people scummy (including Sandro, keeping his options open). That's not "sticking your neck out" at all. The GK case is similar - completely substance-less. If he actively pushed his suspicions, I'd agree with you. But he doesn't. He pushes two suspicions and then votes Sandro without complaint when it is convenient for him to do so. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. My vote is currently on CaveJohnson. Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote. And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him: On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote: CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On November 30 2012 06:52 Hapahauli wrote: Phagga I think this is a very typical scum-player who never sticks his neck out and tries to appear agreeable. There's nothing in his filter that makes me think that he's town. He never takes a controversial stance, he's never confrontational unless the odds are stacked on his side (i.e. tunneling GK recently)... I strongly feel that he's trying to blend in with the crowd. Please, please explain me how the odds were on my side there, because I certainly did not feel that way. Phagga's Super-Scummy Day 1: So first he agrees with Sandro's initial candidacy, but is hesitant. This is seemingly normal, but then things start to get strange. First he questions GoodKarma for some really really strange reasons. He insinuates that Sandro is townie, and therefore... GK is scummy... what? Nothing about this is coherent and it all reads as extremely forced. Wrong. I wanted to get GKs reaction. I did not have a scum read on him yet. I also did not have a town read on Sandro. It was hypothetical. That's the very reason why I worded it exactly this way: "What do you say to the following". If I thought that he was scum I would have written that completely different. And yes, I still find it strange that he likes Sandros approach to the game, that he thinks Sandro is town, but that he wants to be leader himself with sandro on his team and a different appraoch? Why should I vote him then when he said himself that Sandros approach was good? That was the confusion behind it. But perhaps more damning is that he never talks about a read on Sandroba outside of the three above quotes. Never reads him as town, scum, or anything. He's seemingly null on him, but then conjectures into association cases assuming that he's town. But then despite assuming that Sandroba is town in his analysis about "scum" GK, he votes kita: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=58#1155 I cannot make out a coherent or sane rationale here for voting Kita. He's not voting because he thinks Kita is town - he's voting because he wants "competition" and that he likes Kita's first post. He doesn't mention that kita is townie (strange... right?), and supports him despite having some serious misgivings about Promethelax. This is all pretty funny, given that he mentions he has a town read on Syllo in the same post. Why do I HAVE to mention that? It's obvious that he is at least a slight town read for me when I vote him over Syllo who I also lean town. At least I thought it would be obvious.... Also, I wrote clearly why I do not vote Syllo: I was leaning town on him, but I have no idea how he plays, so I feared in the back of my head that he might be mafia and I'm too blind to see it. Hence Kita. But finally, after all is said and done, he votes Syllo at the very end of the day to cover his tracks (when it's really clear that Syllo is going to win the election): Kita was not answering, he had seemingly given up. syllo had started to question Sandros behaviour, which increased my town read on him. Hence the switch. Phagga's "Bussing" of Sandroba Phagga's D2 filter reads as scum trying to push suspicion on easy candidates. When his cases ultimately go nowhere, he falls back and votes Sandro when it's clear that Sandro is going to get lynched. He first opens up with a completely unexplained vote on Cave Johnson: There is no analysis here. None. He votes Cave Johnson, and lists off four other names that he finds "scummy." Ok, I was about to bring all my anger at you for not reading my filter properly, because I was sure that I had a post somewhere were I wrote that I think he is scum because he said he wanted to kill the new players, regardless if they were town or not. But I can't find that post of me, which means I have obviously never written it. So, yeah, you are right, there is no explanation for that in the thread. Reason he was bright red on my side: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16981522 On November 22 2012 02:37 CaveJohnson wrote: The new and fluffy will have to die as well. We don't need complications in the end game. He then builds a nonsensical case on GoodKarma: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=99#1965 I urge you to read the above, because it's completely substanceless. There is nothing in his analysis of GK that points to a scum GK. He basically suspects GK for "emotional detachment." Not scummy behavior, not anything. Just "emotional detachment." I also wrote that he only posted fluff for the sake of contribution, but that his posts did not help town at all. Thanks for leaving that out. Then FINALLY, after it's clear that Sandro is going to get lynched: He's completely OK with lynching sandro. This is despite never following up with his reads on Cave Johnson or GoodKarma at all. No analysis. Nothing. I had no time at following up to that point. When I was finally back in the thread, GK or CaveJohnson would not get lynched. It was about Sandro or Toad at that point, and I was not convinced Toad was scum, while I could agree with a lynch on Sandro for the above mentioned points. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote: I mean really, just look at his D2 play: And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him: He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On November 30 2012 07:41 Hapahauli wrote: No I really don't. I didn't get healed and that's a fact. The issue I'm having is that a bunch of players are sitting around and pondering it without making a decision on it. The attitude seems to be "hmmm this could possibly maybe be suspicious I think." No one's come to a conclusion, and quite frankly I'm sick of being discredited for telling the truth about my night actions. How about this for a "conclusion". The most logical explanation is that either you were lying about taking damage, or Clarity was lying about healing you. Clarity is pretty obviously town, so I don't think he's lying. That leaves you. You are probably scum. There are some possible outside explanations (an ability that makes you untargetable and the person targeting you isn't notified of that; host error) that don't seem particularly likely. You haven't really jumped out at me as super-pro townie though, which is probably partly an effect of your lesser time availability, but the combination of the two has me leaning scum on you. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:14 phagga wrote: He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me. Regarding the bolded, it was specifically the conversation about acro that made me rethink my stance on it. In his filter from here on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17025482 Also, several players stated that drazerk often plays irritating as town and scum. Many called him a coinflip. I took this into consideration. So my read changed from scum to null. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Regarding "Odds on your side" Your suspicions on GoodKarma ebb and flow with the general attitude on the thread. You initially find GK scummy, then when that doesn't gain any traction, you read him as null and soft defend him: On November 26 2012 07:27 phagga wrote: Ok, I've updated my read on GK and I would no longer lynch him. When the D2 lynch came to a close, he asked people to consolidate on either sandroba or Toad. He tried to shut down any discussion that would bring in new candidates. considering that Sandro is confirmed scum and Toad is very very likely scum, I don't see the mafia motivation behind is behaviour. also, the way he acts D3 seems more pro-town than on the first day. All in all, I put GK on null for the moment. On November 26 2012 07:31 phagga wrote: Why? Scum would benefit in this situation when the thread derails/new candidates are brought forths, so I don't see the scum motivation in doing what GK did. tl;dr, i said I doubt GK is scum partially because of his behaviiour before the D2 lynch, z-boson says it could have been a buss, we disagree a bit. Then when suspicion starts to shift on GK again, you up your rhetoric and start railing him. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=222#4436 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=225#4481 ... which is also kinda comical because you seemingly forgot that you 180'd your read on GK: @Prom I haven't read your case completely yet, but there are good points in it. However, I might have confirmation bias as I was already leaning scum on GK beforehand. Regarding your Stance on Sandro Wrong. I wanted to get GKs reaction. I did not have a scum read on him yet. I also did not have a town read on Sandro. It was hypothetical. That's the very reason why I worded it exactly this way: "What do you say to the following". If I thought that he was scum I would have written that completely different. And yes, I still find it strange that he likes Sandros approach to the game, that he thinks Sandro is town, but that he wants to be leader himself with sandro on his team and a different appraoch? Why should I vote him then when he said himself that Sandros approach was good? That was the confusion behind it. I beg to differ. Your entire line of questioning against GK was under the assumption that Sandro was town. Why do I HAVE to mention that? It's obvious that he is at least a slight town read for me when I vote him over Syllo who I also lean town. At least I thought it would be obvious.... Also, I wrote clearly why I do not vote Syllo: I was leaning town on him, but I have no idea how he plays, so I feared in the back of my head that he might be mafia and I'm too blind to see it. Hence Kita. The thing is you never attempted to make a read on Sandro at all. In addition, you seemingly liked his ideas, thought he was slightly town, yet you were comfortable voting Kita despite having huge reservations about one of his party members (Promethelax). Regarding your stance on Cave Johnson On November 30 2012 08:14 phagga wrote: He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me. I find it inconceivable that you thought CaveJohnson improved so much that you all of a sudden trusted him here. You went from convinced he was scum, to not mentioning him for days, to being super-cooperative with him. Cave maintained his "trolliness" throughout. On November 30 2012 08:27 phagga wrote: Regarding the bolded, it was specifically the conversation about acro that made me rethink my stance on it. In his filter from here on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17025482 Also, several players stated that drazerk often plays irritating as town and scum. Many called him a coinflip. I took this into consideration. So my read changed from scum to null. Thing is, you didn't go from scum to null - you went from scum to seemingly complete trust in his ability. I can't rationalize that from a town perspective. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote: How about this for a "conclusion". The most logical explanation is that either you were lying about taking damage, or Clarity was lying about healing you. Clarity is pretty obviously town, so I don't think he's lying. That leaves you. You are probably scum. There are some possible outside explanations (an ability that makes you untargetable and the person targeting you isn't notified of that; host error) that don't seem particularly likely. You haven't really jumped out at me as super-pro townie though, which is probably partly an effect of your lesser time availability, but the combination of the two has me leaning scum on you. Well then fuck you. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Why are you mad that Keir just said he is leaning scum on you, like seriously. Someone calls you scum in the game of mafia and your response is "fuck you"? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Hapa that happens in normal games too, framer mechanic. Why are you mad that Keir just said he is leaning scum on you, like seriously. Someone calls you scum in the game of mafia and your response is "fuck you"? If someone found me scum based on actual rationale (i.e. building a case, behavior, etc), I'd be totally cool with that (well not really, but I'd be less dismissive). But most of this is substantiated on the idea that I'm somehow lying about damage, which is a) false and b) a completely ridiculous line of reasoning. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
I think there is a reasonable chance that you lied about being healed, there's also a reasonable chance there was a position swap mechanic or something along those lines. It is however, not a ridiculous line of reasoning. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9640 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On November 30 2012 08:53 Clarity_nl wrote: No one is calling you scum except for keir, and he said LEANING scum. Yet you're screaming and shouting as if we're all ready to lynch you. It's such an overreaction I can't even begin to explain it. I think there is a reasonable chance that you lied about being healed, there's also a reasonable chance there was a position swap mechanic or something along those lines. It is however, not a ridiculous line of reasoning. Well put yourself in my shoes. Every time I pop into the thread recently, I have to deal with a discussion based entirely on night-action mechanic speculation. Apparently being open about the damage I took has been twisted into being scummy, and it pisses me off. If you want to call it an overreaction, go for it, but I'm really really pissed by all of this. Hell people seem more happy to talk about stupid things like this instead of a giant fucking case I posted on Phagga. Particularly, it blows my mind that people are ignoring this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045 All of this is just some stupid safety-blanket people want to cling to instead of looking for behavior and other things that actually matter. | ||
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