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On November 07 2012 03:10 Alsn wrote:I think you've made that perfectly clear. 
@ Alsn
I don't buy his PM stuff.
I don't like how Rad and sylverfyre wanted to shut me down because I was blue-hunting.
Right now, I really don't like Rad made me promise to focus on someone else. That was pure manipulation, he has clearly no intent to lynch Clarity. I find Rad's behavior early D2 very strange with his 180 on me...
Anyway, defending people (like defending Obzy and Clarity) is always a good mafia move because newbies trust you and follow your lead (Obzy case) and you can also defend your scummates.
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On November 07 2012 03:17 Rad wrote:
Oh god, djo's still going at it even after my last post.
##Unvote
I'll get to your questions when I get a chance. Keep in mind I'm working atm, so even if you can't sleep djo, I don't have time right now to fight with you. I spent time on my last post because it spelled shit out for you, but you ignored it, or maybe you just can't grasp it. If you want me to be on the clarity lynch train with you, you better come out with better arguments because I'm reading him as town. Maybe obzy will jump in and scum hunt clarity with a clear head since he's at least clearly not confirmation biased against him.
@ Rad
Can you tell me what Clarity has done for town ?
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On November 07 2012 02:52 Djodref wrote:Ok, I have big news for you guys You have all pissed me off seriously with all the "no blue hunting" comments and so on. I want Clarity to give us his role. Don't worry about outing the blues, I'm going to do this myseld: I claim Jail keeperYou can find the breadcrumb here Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:06 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 12:48 debears wrote:
Also answer my very important question to you @ debearsDid I answer your question ? I'm not sure which one you were talking about. I guessed it was the one about "why cheese and not me?" I need to go to attend a wedding at Souel Gardien Hoteal soon so I would like to know you have more questions. Gardien means keeper in French. Look it up. Add this to my act of bravado and all the stuff I've said about the roles and the blues and my jailkeeper post during N1 Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 16:07 Djodref wrote:@ daoudYou are right but this kind of reasoning could lead us into a WIFOM hell. In my honest opinion, Clarity is very likely to be scum, so a possible jailkeeper would have good chances to prevent him from killing. Maybe the mafia is going to listen to me as well and use the other member to carry the night kill, maybe they are going to use Clarity anyway, maybe I'm totally wrong and Clarity is town. I don't know and I don't even know if we have a jailkeeper but I would say that it's the best thing for him to do. Anyway, it's down to the jailkeeper decision (if he exists), he could also decide to jail me to give me protection. I wouldn't mind this  and I think you can understand my frustration about being called a blue-hunter. I have blocked Alsn N1 by the way because I thought he was scum with Clarity. But right now, I would say that Rad and Clarity is the scumteam !
Jailkeeper eh? I was sure you were cop and that you had a red read on clarity (and that there's a framer who framed him). That explained to me why you were so passionately hellbent on him being scum. Hrm.
Why block alsn over trying to save debears since you thought that was the obvious NK? Isn't it more of a shot in the dark that alsn a) is scum and b) will be the one to make the kill, than it would have been that debears (or me, tbh) was the target of the NK?
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After thinking about it, I find his claim believable. It doesn't look totally desperate and isn't nearly as convenient as the Dandel claim in XXIX. Sure, I had pointed out that I considered him a possible lynch candidate, but we have massive amounts of time left today. He has a breadcrumb. Heck, even protecting me last night makes sense considering Obzy stated that he thought me and Rad were both strongly town. If he believed that I wasn't scum based on D1, he probably thought there was a chance scum would target me due to how prominent I had been that day. Sure, I didn't actually get a roleblock notification, so I can't be sure. But even if I had I couldn't be sure if he was just scum roleblocker faking JK claim. The fact that roleblocks aren't notified probably makes it a lot riskier to try and fakeclaim JK anyway.
At this point, I don't see any reason to not believe him barring an exceptional counter-claim.
I'll see if I can go along with a Clarity lynch as he did post his case against debears D1 fourty minutes after me, at a time where I was convinced he would make a Djod case. I dismissed the possibility that he was sheeping me at the time because I didn't think he could type up a case that quickly, but maybe I shouldn't place too much emphasis on that. I'll have to reread in more detail what actually happened.
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Yeah, I have been stupid, it's the first time for me to be jail keeper.
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Oh wait, he says he JK'd me because he thought I was scum?
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@alsn
yes that's what he said. Instead of protecting debears or myself, who imo were better jailkeeper targets.
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Okay... I'm back.
A few questions pop to mind immediately.
Djo, why did you claim? I don't think you were in any real danger of getting lynched, and I don't think this changes anything about your suspicion of me.
What is the flavor in your PM?
Why do you want me to claim so bad?
Why do you believe that outing yourself at blue makes it less likely that you were blue hunting? You obviously do not want to use your abilities on other blues.
Why didn't you protect debears? You explained he was an obvious NK candidate.
If you jailed Alsn N1, why did you suspect him today? Why did you "pressure vote" him and now take it back?
I have some calls to make right now, after that I'll read through some filters and be back.
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On November 07 2012 03:24 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 02:52 Djodref wrote:Ok, I have big news for you guys You have all pissed me off seriously with all the "no blue hunting" comments and so on. I want Clarity to give us his role. Don't worry about outing the blues, I'm going to do this myseld: I claim Jail keeperYou can find the breadcrumb here On November 03 2012 13:06 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 12:48 debears wrote:
Also answer my very important question to you @ debearsDid I answer your question ? I'm not sure which one you were talking about. I guessed it was the one about "why cheese and not me?" I need to go to attend a wedding at Souel Gardien Hoteal soon so I would like to know you have more questions. Gardien means keeper in French. Look it up. Add this to my act of bravado and all the stuff I've said about the roles and the blues and my jailkeeper post during N1 On November 05 2012 16:07 Djodref wrote:@ daoudYou are right but this kind of reasoning could lead us into a WIFOM hell. In my honest opinion, Clarity is very likely to be scum, so a possible jailkeeper would have good chances to prevent him from killing. Maybe the mafia is going to listen to me as well and use the other member to carry the night kill, maybe they are going to use Clarity anyway, maybe I'm totally wrong and Clarity is town. I don't know and I don't even know if we have a jailkeeper but I would say that it's the best thing for him to do. Anyway, it's down to the jailkeeper decision (if he exists), he could also decide to jail me to give me protection. I wouldn't mind this and I think you can understand my frustration about being called a blue-hunter. I have blocked Alsn N1 by the way because I thought he was scum with Clarity. But right now, I would say that Rad and Clarity is the scumteam ! Jailkeeper eh? I was sure you were cop and that you had a red read on clarity (and that there's a framer who framed him). That explained to me why you were so passionately hellbent on him being scum. Hrm. Why block alsn over trying to save debears since you thought that was the obvious NK? Isn't it more of a shot in the dark that alsn a) is scum and b) will be the one to make the kill, than it would have been that debears (or me, tbh) was the target of the NK?
@ Rad
Tell me you have done for town during D1 and N1 to deserve a NK ?
By the way, all your stuff regarding my latest arguments against Clarity are just points to show that he didn't ask the question. It's kind of bullshit because I don't believe him from the beginning. I have better stuff incoming.
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On November 07 2012 03:27 Alsn wrote:
Oh wait, he says he JK'd me because he thought I was scum?
yeah, I have been stupid, by the way you did not comment my "mini-case" against you at the end of N1
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On November 07 2012 03:29 Clarity_nl wrote:
Okay... I'm back.
A few questions pop to mind immediately.
1)Djo, why did you claim? I don't think you were in any real danger of getting lynched, and I don't think this changes anything about your suspicion of me.
2)What is the flavor in your PM?
Why do you want me to claim so bad?
Why do you believe that outing yourself at blue makes it less likely that you were blue hunting? You obviously do not want to use your abilities on other blues.
Why didn't you protect debears? You explained he was an obvious NK candidate.
If you jailed Alsn N1, why did you suspect him today? Why did you "pressure vote" him and now take it back?
I have some calls to make right now, after that I'll read through some filters and be back. 1) I'd say claiming early rather than late is more town-like. Claiming early definitely makes his claim more believable. XXIX is a perfect example of where a late claim only served to be confusing(we didn't have time to think through the possibility that the claim might be fake).
2) What would this even prove? Unless there's a second jailkeeper who can back it up, how would that prove anything?
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On November 07 2012 03:31 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 03:27 Alsn wrote:
Oh wait, he says he JK'd me because he thought I was scum? yeah, I have been stupid, by the way you did not comment my "mini-case" against you at the end of N1 I saw it earlier when I read through the thread, I just haven't had time to address it yet. Do you want me to?
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@djo
great, waiting for better stuff on clarity.
I feel I was a good target because a) I'm town and b) I like my style of scum hunting and feel it should be scary to people (if I'm on the right track with my thoughts, that is). My not being NK'd prompted my FoS on obzy and yourself due to what I've already said about scum not wanting to NK someone who thinks they're town (like we saw last game).
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On November 07 2012 03:29 Clarity_nl wrote:
Okay... I'm back.
A few questions pop to mind immediately.
Djo, why did you claim? I don't think you were in any real danger of getting lynched, and I don't think this changes anything about your suspicion of me.
I claimed because I'm fed up with the "no blue hunt" position that everyone has here" and I want you to claim and provide the question you asked to marv. And I don't want people to waste their time thinking if I'm scum or not
What is the flavor in your PM?
I'll wait for you to claim before answering this question
Why do you want me to claim so bad?
because I hate the way you are denying me information
Why do you believe that outing yourself at blue makes it less likely that you were blue hunting? You obviously do not want to use your abilities on other blues.
Are you saying that I'm scum ?
Why didn't you protect debears? You explained he was an obvious NK candidate.
I was stupid
If you jailed Alsn N1, why did you suspect him today? Why did you "pressure vote" him and now take it back?
I've been suspicious of Alsn but Rad is ever more suspicious today. I don't understand his "hard defense" stance from a town perspective
I have some calls to make right now, after that I'll read through some filters and be back.
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Rad's becoming more convincing.
Obzy I find strange, because it feels like he was actually MORE active during the night phase than day phase.
And I'm not sure what to read into the statement, but it strikes me wrongly.
On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote:Hm. I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyrethen.
You're voting me, but I get the feeling you're listening more to other arguments against me than making any of your own. I'm confused what to think of you until you make a case today. This post feels too much like a subtle "playing the newbie card"
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On November 06 2012 09:55 Djodref wrote:I'm very disappointed that no one have taken a look on the guy who provoked Cheese mislynch. This is the first mention of Cheese in Alsn filter as far as I know.
1)Lynch - 10H -> no mention of Cheese Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 00:16 Alsn wrote:
<snip>
That being said, at the very least I have a good idea of what I need to be looking at today. Clarity, Djod, debears. I'm also going to look into sylver because I had some suspicions against him before I went to sleep but I must have missed whether or not he contradicted or reinforced those suspicions of mine when I just read through the thread.
2)Lynch - 4H -> starts to show attention to Cheese Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 05:25 Alsn wrote:
Actually, make that last post of mine @Cheese too. 3)And the best part is that, 2 hours later, Alsn came to us with a concise case which allows him to point Cheese as scum. Alsn shows confidence in his read of Cheese. The time it took to decide that Cheese was scum, the size of his post, the confidence he shows. All these points don't fir Alsn's town meta. Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 07:05 Alsn wrote:In fact, I'm inclined to vote Cheese over Clarity at this point as most likely to be scum. I still think there are good points made against clarity, but mostly they are inconsistencies or weird logic(such as the latest one pointed out by debears) and I don't think being inconsistent is necessarily a scum tell. Not keeping track of your own thoughts seems to me to be a town tell(since townies are not that concerned with keeping their story straight). Why I think Mr. Cheesecake is scum- For avoiding attention and skating by other than to discredit an attacker against himself.
- Stating again and again that Djodref is his top scum read, yet not even seeming remotely interested in pushing a Djod lynch.
- Being suggestive about other people's behaviour as scummy, yet not seeming to believe it himself.
##Vote: Mr. Cheesecake
I think that he also uses double-standards while voting Cheese over Clarity. Cheese was more consistent than Clarity in his follow-ups and did not avoid discussion. For the rest of the points, they are common to both players. - For avoiding attention and skating by other than to discredit an attacker against himself. Clarity let other people do the pressure on his read for him. Please remember that you have to establish your innocence as town. Why did he not do this ?
- Stating again and again that Djodref is his top scum read, yet not even seeming remotely interested in pushing a Djod lynch. Where is Clarity fucking case against me ?
- Being suggestive about other people's behaviour as scummy, yet not seeming to believe it himself. I have no example in mind right now, I'll try to find something
@ Alsn4)Why Cheese over Clarity ? 1) See 2)
2) To be honest, the fact that I hadn't noticed him much at all other than his fight with you over the joke was what worried me at that point. It felt to me like the only thing Cheese had done during all of D1 was have a fight over a couple of jokes. That seemed quite scummy to me because I just had no idea where he stood on anything. It's the reason why I ask him and Rad for their reads.
3) In fact, I actually get a bit worried when Obzy points out that no one has grilled Cheese about anything at all other than the joke fight. It spurred me to gather my thoughts and make a case. The fact that I had gotten convinced that debears probably wasn't town helped this, because I was afraid he was going to be mislynched if I didn't get another wagon rolling.
4) To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why not Clarity. I guess I trusted him because he had been on my side against debears. I had felt that you and debears had been "unfair" towards clarity by accusing him of blending in when I thought Rad and Cheese were guilty of that too. The fact that Cheese was inconsistent in his reasons for suspecting Clarity(I pointed it out when I called him out for believing the fluff argument, yet not liking Clarity's case because of exactly that, fluff) was probably the last straw for me.
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On November 07 2012 03:34 Rad wrote:
@djo
great, waiting for better stuff on clarity.
I feel I was a good target because a) I'm town and b) I like my style of scum hunting and feel it should be scary to people (if I'm on the right track with my thoughts, that is). My not being NK'd prompted my FoS on obzy and yourself due to what I've already said about scum not wanting to NK someone who thinks they're town (like we saw last game).
EBWOP: Also, let me point out that more people considered me town than considered debears town.
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More on the interactions between Clarity and Cheese
On November 05 2012 07:33 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Alsn
I don't think there's a way for me to comment on cheese without screwing myself over. I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1, but people clearly think so since it's the lynchpin (lol) of the cases on me.
Don't you see how this post reeks of guiltiness ?
On November 05 2012 07:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think that if you were to go on: being neutral and not making points = scum (on day 1) then Cheese would be a good target.
I'm not convinced that it's scummy though, as I think keeping a clear head and taking in as much information as possible is most important day 1. I find there are always people to push information out of others, and I feel that (for me personally) if I push people I tend to get confirmation bias, so I avoid it early.
Please notice how Clarity avoided to push during all this game...
On November 05 2012 07:59 Clarity_nl wrote:
<snip?
Let me rephrase... I don't think that because you're not pushing hard /you're not accusing someone of being scum is being scummy. I actually feel that (WIFOM incoming) scum wants to be active in this format, and gain town favor early, ride that out to a win.
@ Rad
He's being accused of the same things I am, if I argue for/against Cheese it'll all be major WIFOM
If you are town and someone is playing the same way you play and is attacked for the same things that you are attacked. there is no WIFOM. The only thing that you should do is sympathize and defend this guy ![b/]
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On November 07 2012 03:38 sylverfyre wrote:Rad's becoming more convincing. Obzy I find strange, because it feels like he was actually MORE active during the night phase than day phase. And I'm not sure what to read into the statement, but it strikes me wrongly. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote:Hm. I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyrethen. You're voting me, but I get the feeling you're listening more to other arguments against me than making any of your own. I'm confused what to think of you until you make a case today. This post feels too much like a subtle "playing the newbie card" Sylver, to your last point. Even if he is playing the newbie card, it's been Rad(and to some extent me) that's been directing him. Or at least so he claims.
I'd say Obzy is making sense from a newbie town point of view, even though Rad(regardless of his alignment) is correct in saying that Obzy should really try and not use the newbie card. Even if he draws fault conclusions, it'd definitely be better for town if Obzy didn't pay as much attention to me and Rad as he claims to have been doing.
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On November 07 2012 03:42 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 03:34 Rad wrote:
@djo
great, waiting for better stuff on clarity.
I feel I was a good target because a) I'm town and b) I like my style of scum hunting and feel it should be scary to people (if I'm on the right track with my thoughts, that is). My not being NK'd prompted my FoS on obzy and yourself due to what I've already said about scum not wanting to NK someone who thinks they're town (like we saw last game). EBWOP: Also, let me point out that more people considered me town than considered debears town.
@ Rad
I don't think that you were a danger for the mafia. Not really pushing anyone, no big cases, no strong stances...
Where are your cases by the way ?
You should stop the defense mode and start to find a better target than Clarity if you want to stick to your guns
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EPT
