EPTGSL Mini Mafia III - Page 47
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 25 2012 04:49 marvellosity wrote: and now I've forgotten when I put the fucking pizza in the oven. Thanks. My evil plan has come to fruition. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 25 2012 04:48 Hapahauli wrote: That's stupid. =/ Hurry up I'm bored. While you are at it read my case very carefully and tell me your thoughts. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I see where you're coming from, I've given out many town-reads myself this game, and marv isn't unique in that. However, it's still very disturbingly different from his town meta. In addition, he's made basically no effort to deviate from his suspicions against Kei and v7. Other players in this game (particularly you and I) have been all-over the place in terms of suspicion. Marv really hasn't, and that's what is strange. Nothing else resembling a scumread in his filter. It looks like you agree with me on the other categories, so I'll just move on to the next part of your post: Your conclusions are reasonable, but again, my priority right now is lynching marv, then worrying about the other things later when he flips. I can see where you're coming from on Kei and that's something I'll just have to look into. As for town reads, I agree with the read on me (duh), but definitely not feeling as strongly about austin. I do see similarities with his town play from the games I've been in, but I've never read one of his scumgames yet, nor do I know anything about his scum meta at all. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Also as a semi-wifom thing, I strongly believe that marv's plethora of semi-town reads this game is an overcompensation to the "meta" Kei identified in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=46#910 This is not an attitude I'm expecting you to share, but more of a feeling from the pre-game conversations I've had with marv. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Marvellosity (3) - Hapahauli, Drazak, iamperfection Hapahauli (1) - Marvellosity Not Voting (4) - Keirathi, austinmcc, Z-Boson, DarthPunk With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Day ends when a majority is reached. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'll start with a few premises or things to think about. What I can't defend myself against is the accusation that this game I've not appeared how I usually look as town. Because that's simply apparent enough and I wouldn't argue about it. What I will argue and try to explain is that this doesn't make me scummy, it makes this game different. I want to defend myself using this game in conjunction with the meta attacks, and that's how it should be. Also importantly, none of what Hapa says about me really uses this game as evidence of why I'm scum, except with comparing to other games. But more of that later. Lack of Suspicion: It is fair that I've not been as suspicious of as many players this game as I'm used to being suspicious of. But we have to fucking take into account the nature of this game. Reading up, we have at least: vader struggled to make scumreads drazak struggled to make scumreads Keirathi struggled to make scumreads DarthPunk said he has way more town reads than normal Z-Bo has struggled to make scumreads/has townreads (I forget which right now). marv has struggled to make scumreads - and ding ding ding ding I'm scum! Give me a break. I sort of understand being held to a higher or different standard than other people, but it's grossly unfair not to take into account the state of the game. I am among a raft of players who at various times have struggled to make scumreads. This game I've picked up more town tells than scum tells, and what? I normally don't pick up this many town tells? That doesn't make me scum, not at all. It means that's the nature of this particular game. This CANNOT be ignored. This is highly rated to Overconsistency and I will talk about perceived Detachment: Again, I'm going to take into account the nature of this game. Don't forget that I effectively started this game 1.5 days in. That's 1.5 motherfucking days which I didn't have to flip flop around at the start of the day. In the situation of a normal game, I was basically afk until 12 hours until deadline. That's when shit starts coming together. I came in to the thread with fresh eyes, and had all the information and posts laid out in front of me, so that when I read it all and thought about it, I could make an informed decision on what I was seeing. It's almost like replacing in; speaking of which - Mad Men. I replace into that game and called one person town, another scum, and then just went bam bam bam scum scum scum. I didn't flip flop on my reads, I was 'overly consistent'. Obviously it's a bit of a stretch to say that game is the same as this one, but I did come into the game later, which gave me the double whammy of having all the information laid out in front of me and not being involved in town from the get go. I was also annoyingly away for the Hapa/Z-bo argument (pre-advertised, so no shenannies  ), meaning I wasn't in the thread for most of the most 'involved' town moments. In this light it should be possible to see how I might appear somewhat detached from the thread, even though I absolutely don't think I am, or at least I'm trying my bestest not to be. Twice I appeared in the aftermath of events with all the posts already made, and all there was for me to do was pick through these posts. In this light it should also be totally understandable why my suspicions have stayed more constant than they normally do in my town games; a lot of the time I haven't had the ebb and flow of "oh! suspicious" and then "oh, maybe not!" as the thread goes on. That just goes on in my head as I read and then I come to a conclusion - hello "overconsistency" Further, just looking at my filter it's clear to see that I have at various times been trying to figure out alignments. Kei said himself I was the only one interested in finding out his alignment. I quizzed austin on the (sub)optimal stuff because I wanted insight into his alignment. Repeatedly I asked drazak questions and tried to get him to post to figure out his alignment. Etc etc etc. In this case it mostly led to confirmation of my reads, and what? That's just how this game has panned out for me. Insta-lynch mechanic and other sundries because I'm terrible at organising posts: Firstly, using Rock Band and Clothes Mafia as points of comparison is tenuous, at best. With regards to Clothes Mafia, my main two suspicions were John Matrix (purely on setup strategy) and Ben Richards. In the context of a smurf game (guys, context of each game is REALLY FUCKING IMPORTANT) I did not (mostly) know who else I was dealing with. As a result I let myself get pushed off my scumread when, in any normal game where I knew who was pushing me off it, I would have simply pursued it to the lynch. In that game itself I even grumbled at the start of Day 2 about "stupid town-tells". Context = different. Rock Band I played a pretty sweet game if I do say so myself. But actually, those of you who watched/played - do you forget how uninvested i looked at the start? I believe I even said so during the game. Palmar's accusation of me gave me a kick up the backside - in fact that was the basis of the accusation. I was only fabulous subsequently. And I was never really afk for important thread events in that game either. I think one of the only things I've seen on me with relation to this game was how 'sure' I seemed on vader. But from my original case on vader to when I hammered - there was a long time in between. Mainly because I wanted to get discussion going, give town more time to discuss things, give vader time to post and redeem himself. Except vader never did redeem himself, did he? Many of you agreed that he was scum. Also no-one ever actually argued against the thrust of my arguments, which might have caused me to doubt myself. Just gonna copy paste a lot of shit to show this, so you'll be able to see what I had to say about vader, and you'll know that no-one disagreed with my points: On October 21 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote: vaderseven - for lack of content, firstly. But more tellingly for the manner of his posts. He mixes in the cute little posts - "what do you want to know about mes" and the little fun facts about his rolling mafia. In between those posts, though, are sarcastic and patronising posts that are really easy for scum to make because it makes them look like they know what's going on without actually have to contribute anything. On October 22 2012 00:40 marvellosity wrote: -snip- Most of all right now I want v7, drazak, and Keirathi to be posting. On October 22 2012 05:50 marvellosity wrote: I'm not exactly sure. A couple of posts later in his filter he explains he was just calling out bullshit and didn't read anything alignment-y from it. But then if that's the case, then the contributions were just pointless and not really contributions. I think Kei is playing pretty scummily - but what gives me pause is in his recent post, he just told town he doesn't really have any reads. Given he's under some pressure, it makes little sense for a scum Kei to do that. But then I find myself going around in stupid little wifom circles. What do you think? I don't have these little niggles about vader, so I'd quite like to hammer him. But we're still going places with discussion so I'm loathe to right now. Z-bo, are you sure that part of your read on Hapa isn't that you're putting him on a pedestal and placing unreasonable expectation from his posting? I'm getting that vibe from what you're posting about him. On October 22 2012 08:19 marvellosity wrote: Naw, not planned out, but the thing that made me think about it was the first post where he was like "meh, I don't have reads". Anyways, not really willing to give a time to hammer on vader. We'll do it when it's time to do it. On October 23 2012 00:42 marvellosity wrote: -snip- Where I stand right now: vader is my top scumread, but I *do* want to hear what he has to say. His appearance in the thread last night hasn't really assuaged my concerns at all, mostly because of the combination of his absolutely indignant posts on being called out and the fact he's referenced playing a fair chunk of mafia games. -snip- On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote: Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it. Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang. ##Vote vaderseven. So yes, finally after a long day, I plopped the hammer down. I'd had enough indecision, and vader had done nothing to suggest he was town. That again is the context of this game. More on my apparent investment: I am as invested in this game as can be, and it's simply a lie that I'm not. I mentioned it before but it's worth repeating, my filter when compared to Death Note is already longer, and that was the case by the end of Night 1. Obviously on its own that doesn't have to say much, but if I'm defending myself against a slew of meta, it's fair that I can give the other side of the coin too. I would argue that I am *considerably* more invested in this game than Death Note, and that's because, shock horror, I'm town. tldr; Look at the context of this game, what I've done, the fact I've been afk, I'm invested, I'm town. Scumreads to follow but I need a break as this is long. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Again tied into Clothes Mafia - the game is different. I felt lost for a while because again, I'm dealing with a bunch of smurfs. It's just not a relevant comparison. The other comparison was made with Rock Band. I don't always fly off the handle like I did with Palmar, but it's motherfucking Palmar. What you guys are NOT taking into account is the fact that I had just played a game with Palmar, and he'd called me out during the night before I killed him as scum. At some point in the game, he said this to me: "marv: fuck you. you're useless and terrible." We'd also had a tete-a-tete or two in Bureaucracy Mafia. AND I have a LOT of respect for Palmar as a townie. Someone I largely consider to be a pretty superior townie to me. That is the context of me flying off the handle at Palmar in Rock Band. Context god-damnit. A related game, Movie Mafia... where I did end up flying off the handle at VE, but not for a long time. Filter of mine here, the accusations against me start pretty early: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346522&user=140487 Note how collected and calm I am in the face of the accusations for quite a long time. Either in obsQT or post-game (I think post-game), the host wherebugsgo said "I was actually surprised how long it took marv to OMGUS attack VE!" That was the last time I was seriously accused of being scum, and it took me a LONG time for me to get angry and at first I was not angry. Don't cherrypick meta. I don't always emotionally react like that as town, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It's an invalid point. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
1) You believe that Rock Band and Clothes Mini are not relevant due to the specific circumstances of the game. The problem is that the differences you list are inconsequential. So what Clothes was a themed game? It still doesn't explain a huge switch in mentality. So what you were AFK at the beginning of Rockband? Fact of the matter is that your townie persona was on full display after you started posting. But the only reason I picked those two games is because they were the most recent. I can go back to any of your other recent town games and point the same things. You mentioned Dwarf Fortress earlier, where again your town persona is exactly how I described it. Same with all the others. Fact is, you are very capable of doing what you're doing as scum, and I've never seen you do it as town. You haven't proven me wrong yet. Also, perhaps even more damning about you is the scumreads you've found after a day of searching. Your scumreads are 1) the person attacking you and 2) biggest lynch-bait in the game. That's optimal scum strategy in this situation, and there's no way its coincidence. But onward we go Section 1: Lack of Suspicion Marv comments on the "nature of the game" and others that have done the same as him, but the problem is that he's comparing his actions to the actions of others, which makes absolutely no sense. I've outlined marv's townie persona, and I find it ridiculous that he was peer-pressured into behaving like he is now. He uses his being "afk" for the first 24 hours as a point in his defense, which makes no sense. If he was less caught up in this game, shouldn't he be more suspicious of players in general? Shouldn't he be more lost? Yes and yes. And once again, he's never done something remotely similar in any of his town games. He's done it in his scum games however. Section 2: Overconsistency//Detatchment I mentioned marv's late start above, so that's that. The only other point he makes in this section is his "earnestness" about finding alignments. He certainly does ask questions to players, but he does so in a far different way from his other town games. He questions Kei in a very unemotional way, which is uncharacteristic of his town play (especially with the "infuriating" comment). When he questions austin, he does so mostly in terms of Kei's alignment. This is also after he has a town read on austin. Exactly the same with drazak. He mostly questions people he has semi-town reads on. His questioning of null reads is basically non-existant beyond playful banter. Marv in his townie games loves to attack bad logic and his first inclination is to call it scummy. In particular, lets look at his attitude on iamperfection: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=34#663 Iamperfection at this point in this game has a mysterious town-read on Drazak. Marv directly comments on it, calling it bad logic. Nowhere in marv's filter does marv comment on iamperfection's allignment, however he mysteriously doesn't pursue the issue or even find it scummy. In fact, he later posts that he has "townie vibes" from iamperfection despite this. The "detatchment" stuff speaks for itself. Marv says he's not detached due to his circumstances. I've laid out exactly why he is so. Nothing to comment on here. Section 3: Insta-lynch and Other Stuff Marv continues to argue why Rockband and Clothes don't apply. I've already laid out why this is not the case. In fact, I can point to so many town games where he's uber-willing to move around his vote throughout the day. I can also point to scum games where he's not. This is the issue that he does not address yet again. As for the vader stuff - I never really had a contention with that, but he makes a big deal out of it for some reason. Section 4: Investment So what your filter was longer in Death Note? Irrelevant. You can be active as scum, and this has no bearing on mentality. Section 5: Emotion, Part 2 I've already talked about why Clothes and Rockband are relevant. If town is not satisfied, look through his other town games. The townie persona, exactly how I outline it in my case, is fully on display. As for being calm in Movie Mafia before the OMGUS - again it's not an issue of a single meta read. The problem is that you're satisfying all of the above, and this is scummy dear. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I measure your "townie-ness" by your contributions and case-writing, which you have still not posted. As I mentioned above, your top two scum-reads are pathetic for a player of your caliber and fit right into optimal scum-strategy. Also, you must be having quite a difficult time writing a case on me huh? Hurry up. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 25 2012 06:38 Hapahauli wrote: But again, I'm expecting reads and not your defense. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with how you defend yourself. You're pretty good at defending yourself anywho, and I expect that from scum or town you. I measure your "townie-ness" by your contributions and case-writing, which you have still not posted. As I mentioned above, your top two scum-reads are pathetic for a player of your caliber and fit right into optimal scum-strategy. Also, you must be having quite a difficult time writing a case on me huh? Hurry up. As I read this, you not ever being satisfied with how marv defends himself implies that you COULD find marv townie based on the reads he offers. Is that accurate? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 25 2012 06:50 Hapahauli wrote: 100% accurate Could you...explain this one a little? I know that agreeing with his reads, or seeing the thought process, could ease your concerns over some of your meta points. However, no matter what reads marv throws out, even if they match yours exactly, some of your other points would still be applicable, and the reads would have come only AFTER you've called him out and after all this time. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On October 25 2012 06:57 austinmcc wrote: Could you...explain this one a little? I know that agreeing with his reads, or seeing the thought process, could ease your concerns over some of your meta points. However, no matter what reads marv throws out, even if they match yours exactly, some of your other points would still be applicable, and the reads would have come only AFTER you've called him out and after all this time. Marv at this point has to convince me that someone else is more likely to flip scum than him. If I find that his cases are really really good, than yes I could find him town. However, given his "reads" so far (me and Drazak), I find it very unlikely that he's town for reasons that I've previously mentioned. So basically he has to convince me that a) Drazak is 99% scum based on his current filter and/or b) that I'm scum and that I received the wrong role PM. Oh, and he can also point to another game where he behaves like this as town, but he hasn't been able to nor do I expect him to. | ||
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drazak
United States479 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On October 25 2012 07:03 drazak wrote: I find it insanely odd how marv calls those cases cherry picked and then can't come up with other cases to his defense, obviously if they're cherry picked it's because there are other cases contrary to them, but I haven't seen any yet. Still curious about this: On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote: in reference to marv.To me, your play is pretty neutral Why was his play neutral to you? Specifically, what posts, what actions, etc. | ||
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