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On October 25 2012 02:33 iamperfection wrote:
do you guys think dp slipped?
I don't think DP would have been the top choice of shot on night 1, no matter how many people had "town" reads on him. I mean, no offense to DP, he's a good player, but he's not exactly "dangerous" like Hapa or marv. It's a valid point that he was so sure that he would be alive, but I think its pretty reasonable for a town DP to assume he wouldn't be the first choice of a shot, looking at the player list.
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On October 24 2012 23:42 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:12 iamperfection wrote:alright so i have fresh mind and i just want to say something about marv that some of you guys might not understand. If there's one thing about marv that you might not know is that regardless of alignment he loves winning. Go look at rockband when palmar pissed him off he didn't whine like a baby he came back and tried to figure thing out after 1 hour. He is super dedicated to winning and his refusal to try to figure things out yesterday is very telling. ------------------------------------------ With that said i had something stuck out to me when i was re reading some filters DarthpunkOn October 23 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:On October 23 2012 10:45 iamperfection wrote:On October 23 2012 10:44 DarthPunk wrote:On October 23 2012 10:42 iamperfection wrote:On October 23 2012 10:41 DarthPunk wrote:
Also I 100% do not want to lynch keir right now. So if that comes up as a thing. Ima shut it down as hard as I can. why Is there a reason you want to know? I don't feel like I particularly want or need to share my reasons. Especially at night. well i said i thought he was scum so if you have reason he is not that would interest me. I will talk about it during the day. If you still feel the same need to know. after my second time reading this i just want to know how did you know you were going to live? because you in fact waited untill the day and not before the flip to post your thoughts. What gives. Also what irony if i am in fact right. You are right that I didn't fear being Killed. Mainly because most of the players in this game are far better than I so which scum in their right mind would kill me? Furthermore. I was explaining why I would argue hard against a keirathi lynch. If I am dead it does not matter. Savvy?Weak as shit case.
This line in particular did bother me because if he had a reason to believe what he was thinking there was no reason to keep it to himself as a town member. He didn't think of that because he is not thinking like a townie becasue he isnt one.
If you have information you think that helps town you give it. He knew he would be alive the next day and he fucked up.
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what an interesting setup
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I'm going to wait on marv's thoughts. In general I dislike cases that are so heavily meta-based, as (whether this one was or not) they're much more malleable than one based on play in-game.
I think hapa's case does a good job of rounding up a decent (if not complete) picture of recent marv games. I think some of those games are...so dissimilar that I don't like drawing parallels to them? Clothes would be one of those. I think that the setup in Clothes is so different from a normal or semi-normal game that one's play, to some extent, would be different there than in other games. I don't think this is damning of the specific comparisons hapa drew, because you used other cases and you spoke in a lot of generalities like "trying to figure the game out" and "moving votes around" (my quotes, not yours). Those seem more mindset-oriented characteristics that you'd port from game to game than something that wouldn't carry over at all. All of that is just...saying what's on my mind. I still think you've pulled plenty of comparable games that using Clothes doesn't kill the case for me.
That's all very bland and kind of wishy washy. I just...ugh. I hate all this meta stuff and I keep finding myself wanting to distrust ALL meta cases/reads, because that seems easier than trying to filter through the times someone has properly used meta.
I'm swamped at work today, and will continue to be until next W and the end of the month. I'm gonna get through marv's filter again when I can, and try to pin down some thoughts on his actual play this game. I know I dislike the way he went about voting v7/finding v7's return scummy, but I'm not entirely sure as to whether that's because he and I disagreed on whether the return posts were townie or scummy, or whether I actually find the disagreement ITSELF scummy (would is this another point of view a townie can take, or is that point of view itself scummy).
Otherwise, I'm just going to wait for whatever he's going to post, and this evening I can devote some time to the game.
On October 25 2012 00:55 drazak wrote:
yeah man, ad hominem is certainly the answer, I was open with my reads when people asked me, try again please.
I still am not sure of your alignment, but ...
(1) we shouldn't be having to ask so much for your reads
(2) why did you find marv's play this game neutral before hapa's case?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Hokay I'm home. Proper post coming in however long it takes me to research it properly and write it.
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On October 25 2012 03:19 austinmcc wrote:I'm going to wait on marv's thoughts. In general I dislike cases that are so heavily meta-based, as (whether this one was or not) they're much more malleable than one based on play in-game. I think hapa's case does a good job of rounding up a decent (if not complete) picture of recent marv games. I think some of those games are...so dissimilar that I don't like drawing parallels to them? Clothes would be one of those. I think that the setup in Clothes is so different from a normal or semi-normal game that one's play, to some extent, would be different there than in other games. I don't think this is damning of the specific comparisons hapa drew, because you used other cases and you spoke in a lot of generalities like "trying to figure the game out" and "moving votes around" (my quotes, not yours). Those seem more mindset-oriented characteristics that you'd port from game to game than something that wouldn't carry over at all. All of that is just...saying what's on my mind. I still think you've pulled plenty of comparable games that using Clothes doesn't kill the case for me. That's all very bland and kind of wishy washy. I just...ugh. I hate all this meta stuff and I keep finding myself wanting to distrust ALL meta cases/reads, because that seems easier than trying to filter through the times someone has properly used meta.
I'm swamped at work today, and will continue to be until next W and the end of the month. I'm gonna get through marv's filter again when I can, and try to pin down some thoughts on his actual play this game. I know I dislike the way he went about voting v7/finding v7's return scummy, but I'm not entirely sure as to whether that's because he and I disagreed on whether the return posts were townie or scummy, or whether I actually find the disagreement ITSELF scummy (would is this another point of view a townie can take, or is that point of view itself scummy). Otherwise, I'm just going to wait for whatever he's going to post, and this evening I can devote some time to the game.
Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 00:55 drazak wrote:
yeah man, ad hominem is certainly the answer, I was open with my reads when people asked me, try again please. I still am not sure of your alignment, but ... (1) we shouldn't be having to ask so much for your reads (2) why did you find marv's play this game neutral before hapa's case?
Meta is a valuable tool, when used correctly. Hapa's case is definitely "using it correctly". Not that he's necessarily right, but I came to the exact same conclusions, for the same reasoning, at the same time Hapa did, so I'm inclined to believe that we're not BOTH wrong. I mean, earlier in the game, marv explicitly stated he was paranoid about how solid a grasp I have on meta in general, and could have been using that to alter my scum play to be more similar to my town play.
I'm not sure if you read my meta analysis of marv in LC, where I concluded that kush was town? Marv specifically pm'd me about that later, saying it was one of the few things that anyone has EVER said that has made him actually step back and think about how he plays this game. I know I say it a lot, but I really have spent a ton of time talking to marv about games, delving into the way he thinks, why he does certain things, etc. I'm certainly no expert on him, but I believe I have a decent grasp of his play, in general.
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of course it's not within the realms of likelihood that two people, of any alignment, picked up on facets of my play this game. I've already admitted I'm not my usual boisterous town self.
Anyway, more to come. No more distractions ^^
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er... not sure what "not within the realms of likelihood" is. I meant it's not unlikely. :/
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On October 25 2012 03:27 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:19 austinmcc wrote:I'm going to wait on marv's thoughts. In general I dislike cases that are so heavily meta-based, as (whether this one was or not) they're much more malleable than one based on play in-game. I think hapa's case does a good job of rounding up a decent (if not complete) picture of recent marv games. I think some of those games are...so dissimilar that I don't like drawing parallels to them? Clothes would be one of those. I think that the setup in Clothes is so different from a normal or semi-normal game that one's play, to some extent, would be different there than in other games. I don't think this is damning of the specific comparisons hapa drew, because you used other cases and you spoke in a lot of generalities like "trying to figure the game out" and "moving votes around" (my quotes, not yours). Those seem more mindset-oriented characteristics that you'd port from game to game than something that wouldn't carry over at all. All of that is just...saying what's on my mind. I still think you've pulled plenty of comparable games that using Clothes doesn't kill the case for me. That's all very bland and kind of wishy washy. I just...ugh. I hate all this meta stuff and I keep finding myself wanting to distrust ALL meta cases/reads, because that seems easier than trying to filter through the times someone has properly used meta.
I'm swamped at work today, and will continue to be until next W and the end of the month. I'm gonna get through marv's filter again when I can, and try to pin down some thoughts on his actual play this game. I know I dislike the way he went about voting v7/finding v7's return scummy, but I'm not entirely sure as to whether that's because he and I disagreed on whether the return posts were townie or scummy, or whether I actually find the disagreement ITSELF scummy (would is this another point of view a townie can take, or is that point of view itself scummy). Otherwise, I'm just going to wait for whatever he's going to post, and this evening I can devote some time to the game.
On October 25 2012 00:55 drazak wrote:
yeah man, ad hominem is certainly the answer, I was open with my reads when people asked me, try again please. I still am not sure of your alignment, but ... (1) we shouldn't be having to ask so much for your reads (2) why did you find marv's play this game neutral before hapa's case? Meta is a valuable tool, when used correctly. Hapa's case is definitely "using it correctly". Not that he's necessarily right, but I came to the exact same conclusions, for the same reasoning, at the same time Hapa did, so I'm inclined to believe that we're not BOTH wrong. I mean, earlier in the game, marv explicitly stated he was paranoid about how solid a grasp I have on meta in general, and could have been using that to alter my scum play to be more similar to my town play. I'm not sure if you read my meta analysis of marv in LC, where I concluded that kush was town? Marv specifically pm'd me about that later, saying it was one of the few things that anyone has EVER said that has made him actually step back and think about how he plays this game. I know I say it a lot, but I really have spent a ton of time talking to marv about games, delving into the way he thinks, why he does certain things, etc. I'm certainly no expert on him, but I believe I have a decent grasp of his play, in general.
Yaya, I'm generally down with this case. There's just a mental roadblock that exists between meta and me, and I tend to try and shy away from it.
I didn't see that bit in LC. I'm a baddie and didn't follow LC at all after dying really.
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@austin:
+ Show Spoiler [For Reference] +On October 09 2012 15:32 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 15:03 DarthPunk wrote:On October 09 2012 14:50 Keirathi wrote:
@VE:
Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. WIFOM. Man. WIFOM. Yea, its WIFOM. But I've been thinking about kush a lot, and VE jumping in and voting for him made me start thinking about it. Here's my current train of thought (and yes, before you say it, its still WIFOM, but I believe it actually makes some sense). Kush comes under pretty heavy pressure day 1, and marv immediately jumps in to defend him pretty damn hard. Also, kush is the kind of player that's always an easy lynch, so as scum he would at some point be a liability to a scum marv that plans to survive until the end game (and yes, that is always marv's goal. He prides himself of being "unlynchable"). So, lets say it gets to that point and Kush flips scum. Now, because of marv's hard defense, marv looks pretty damn bad. Say what you want about being WIFOM, but scum marv almost never does things that make him look bad. Go read basically any scum game that he has ever played. He busses players that will be a liability to him surviving, and otherwise distances himself from his teammates. So, the only way for marv not to look bad for hard-defending scum Kush is for him to plan for Kush to never get flipped. And I'm just not sure even marv is capable of that. Which leads me to the conclusion that either 1) kush is town, or 2) marv planned to have a "change of heart" and bus kush at some point. Based on marv's past games as scum, I think (1) is more likely than (2). I kept calling it WIFOM, but in hindsight it wasn't really WIFOM. It was just purely a meta read. And damn accurate.
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@ Marv
While we wait, can you just give us the players that you think are suspicious? May as well have something to talk over while you make your case. I hate suspense.
@ Austin
I agree that Clothes and Rockband are different types of games, but like you said, I'm much more focused on marv's mentality this game. Town mentality should not change so drastically from setup-to-setup. In addition, he has shown his current mentality in a few previous scumgames.
I'm personally pretty hesitant about using meta myself, but that more applies to traditional "meta" tells (lurking, passiveness, etc). The difference about my current case is that I focus on several facets of his mentality and establish a clear difference between his town and mafia play. Again, I wouldn't lynch him on only one of those tells, but all the tells combined with his rather lackluster defense convinces me he's scum.
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On a scale of 1-10, how convinced are you that I'm scum?
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you'll find out soon enough
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Time frame? I'm rather eager to find out if you're putting your mouth where your vote is.
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I've done my reading and made my notes, now I just have to write it.
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Can you give me a brief outline of why I'm scum? Just bullet points works.
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nope, you can wait for the case.
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That's stupid. =/
Hurry up I'm bored.
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no it's not fucking stupid. go entertain yourself.
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EPT
