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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 06 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote: Jingle, Hiro, what do you guys think about ghost and what I wrote about him? Don't worry Jingle, even if I'm RS ghost can be BS, so you can actually pay attention to what I say. I think I'd rather kill the antagonistic scum first, so I'll worry about him after you die. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 06 2012 11:00 gonzaw wrote: @Keirathi: ORRRR.... maybe you guys can just read that post I made that has nothing to do with your role PMs. Your post made some logic leaps that I didn't agree with. 3)Once of them is from 1 scumteam and the other one is town: Again. If S&B is scum, same reasoning (why would he claim?). If he claimed I could see town Keirathi claiming though. If Keirathi is scum....again why claim? Let S&B get lynched. I don't think his claim would have made less sense if he was scum. He felt enough pressure that he claimed. That doesn't change whether you are town or scum. IF S&B was red scum, didn't know there was a black team, and none of his teammates were P-Body, then I think his first assumption would be "Okay, P-Body is town". And with a town P-Body to back up his claim, he gets pressure off of him and some town cred. Then he could kill me at night and have a confirmed green flip that gives 100% merit to his claim. Again, I don't find that at all likely, but that's what I didn't use your explanation. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 06 2012 11:07 JingleHell wrote: I think I'd rather kill the antagonistic scum first, so I'll worry about him after you die. What if he's town and not BS? You don't care right now? On October 06 2012 11:07 Keirathi wrote: Your post made some logic leaps that I didn't agree with. I don't think his claim would have made less sense if he was scum. He felt enough pressure that he claimed. That doesn't change whether you are town or scum. IF S&B was red scum, didn't know there was a black team, and none of his teammates were P-Body, then I think his first assumption would be "Okay, P-Body is town". And with a town P-Body to back up his claim, he gets pressure off of him and some town cred. Then he could kill me at night and have a confirmed green flip that gives 100% merit to his claim. Again, I don't find that at all likely, but that's what I didn't use your explanation. Hmm....that's possible. It's also possible he doesn't kill you at night so he can justify surviving on his own (if people cast suspicion on you 2, then he can say "well Keirathi is still alive and they didn't shot him either right?" and shrug off suspicion). Okay, it's a logic leap. Still, if you were scum and S&B wasn't your team mate you would have not claimed at all and gotten him lynched. I'm sure you can make a pretty fake-claim down the road later just to get a free lynch in S&B | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
So I take it you don't buy my "there was no momentum on iamperfection so I changed my vote" defense? Why not? Why have you not responded to my defense at all? Yeah, I don't like coming back to that....but shit Jingle, if thinking I'm "obvious scum" stops you from considering anybody else at all and talking about anything else at all there's something wrong. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I wonder how Post-game will proceed. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 06 2012 12:10 gonzaw wrote: EBWOP: So I take it you don't buy my "there was no momentum on iamperfection so I changed my vote" defense? Why not? Why have you not responded to my defense at all? Yeah, I don't like coming back to that....but shit Jingle, if thinking I'm "obvious scum" stops you from considering anybody else at all and talking about anything else at all there's something wrong. Since your responses never have any bearing on what I said, I don't see a point in arguing in circles with you. Others are starting to see it. Hopefully enough of them will come around in time. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I think I'm just going to ignore any posts where you talk to/about each other for the time being. I agree that Jingle had some good points about gonzaw, I don't agree that they make him more likely scum than Drazerk because I could hypothetically see a town gonzaw doing them. Nothing Drazerk has done gives me a green feeling besides his interactions with me early in day1 before he got on his soapbox about S&B. We should be voting Drazerk today. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 06 2012 12:45 gonzaw wrote: Keirathi, any thoughts on ghost? Your connection theory does make some sense. His arguments for ghost being town were all based on the fact that we were giving town cred (on his suggestion, I might add) to the people who voted for iamperfection (and, by association, the person that iamperfection voted for). And Crossfire's whole reasoning for voting iamperfection was in fact a chainsaw defense of ghost to begin with. The ironic thing here is that its possible that iamperfection inadvertently found scum based on one post when he was scum himself. But, connection theories like that can be fabricated by scum (or just misread/fished for by townies). In GSL, on the last day Bluelightz actually called me out as scum based on a connection theory between me and Dirkzor, who was town. So what has ghost actually done this game? Lets go through it chronologically since its pretty short 1) Hard tunnel me. (This is a recurring them, so I'm only going to list it once). Honestly I can't say that I think he's scum because of that. His reasonings felt terribad, but terribad logic isn't a strictly scummy trait. I've definitely had my fair share of it from time to time (hint: iamperfection). 2) Call Hiro town for being "too dumb to be scum" 3) Said something was off about austin's play this game and that he was going to read some of austin's previous games, but never followed up on it. So far, this is one of the scummiest things in his filter. He literally just doesnt mention him again. At all. Add to that the fact that this comment just "happened" to come at a time when austin was under some pressure, and I think you can clearly see why I interpret this as scummy. 4) Small pokes at Mementoss and JH 5) Wishy-washy read on Nisani, scumread on S&B 6) I'm really sorry I've been so busy, I fully intend to catch up tomorrow. Items on the agenda include: Try and understand what XFire has been spending so much time in thread defending me: I'm grateful, but I don't get it. Then: On my first read, I took XFire's posting to be buddying, which in retrospect, I don't think it was. It looks more just like he was trying to figure out exactly what was happening in thread. Since he wasn't buddying, now he's my buddy <3 Here's something that gives direct evidence toward them buddying. But would Crossfire+ghost scumteam really be THAT obvious about it? They would have had to have been SUPREMELY confident that neither would flip. 7) Another wishy-washy read about Nisani, then drops his vote on S&B and disappears until the deadline and the full night cycle. Okay, this is where the wishy-washiness gets to be scummy. Here it is, quoted for reference: On October 04 2012 23:26 ghost_403 wrote: I'm having trouble writing down my thoughts on Nisani at the moment. I need some more time to come back and analyze exactly why, and whether he's town or scum. In the meantime, I'm thinking that S+B might have rolled 3rd party. Last time I checked, 3rd party was anti-town, so I think I'm gonna ##vote strongandbig at least for the time being. It feels 100% like he's being non-committal to Nisani because he doesn't care if Nisani gets lynched instead. And don't forget, Nisani was leading the vote at the time and he still couldn't be arsed enough to give a real read. 8) Drops his vote on S&B in the same post, then disappears until the deadline, and the full night cycle. 9) Attempts to discredit gonzaw about his setup speculation Okay, so that's basically all of the meaningful interactions he's had this game. I think by far that 3 and 5/7 are the strongest points. + Show Spoiler + A conjecture I had that was purely speculation: I was thinking more about the Nisani thing before I posted this. Lets assume that ghost is black scum for a minute. So, what is he saying with his wishy-washy stance on Nisani and vote on S&B? I think he genuinely thinks S&B is on the other scum team, and that Nisani is town. Therefore, saving Nisani from the lynch and getting S&B lynched instead buys him town cred on two fronts. I'm sure you can see how that would be beneficial to him. Now, some supporting evidence for that theory. Ghost only started going after S&B after Drazerk started claiming that he shot S&B and that S&B survived and was fakeclaiming his roll. Which, conveniently, is about the same time he stopped mentioning me. And, since the day post, since he missed the night, he isn't mentioning me or S&B anymore, because he knows that since the black team has 2 members, the most likely scenario is that the red team only has 2 members as well. Therefore me+S&B having supporting roleclaims doesn't fit for being scum, and he dropped us. This honestly feels like he's trying to scumhunt. I'm just not sure if he's scumhunting for the black team, or for town. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
You make some good points. I cba to quote and post all of them, but yes, one of the scummiest thing he's made is not giving a shit about anything. His post on N2 proves that. He was suspicious of: Keirathi, S&B, austin a little bit; but forgets about all of them just to call me out about setup speculation? I never quite got why people post and completely disappear immediately. Are all of them at work hiding under their desk so their boss doesn't find them and can only post once and never again? If you post you always hang around 10 minutes or so to see what people post. At least 2-3 minutes or something to see if there's an immediate response. If you can't be around you explain why in your previous post, it's not that hard guys, you just have to write 10 more words /off-topic. I didn't notice that quote ghost made about Xfire....damn that's weird. If they were normal scum I'd say it's too obvious. It's still possible they counted on BS being hidden most of the game (like they were), specially after both of them were "almost confirmed town" because of interactions with iamperfection. But I think this is kind of stretching it and making leaps of logic. Hopefully that interaction doesn't mean much. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On October 06 2012 14:47 gonzaw wrote: lol, I didn't actually expect you to make that much sense. . Ouch. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Anyways, this day seems like it will be wasted, kind of like D2. ghost will show up, make 1 post explaining some stuff and disappear again. Drazerk won't do anything at all, and everybody else will just hang around until he gets lynched. Meh. Multiple faction games so shitty in terms of trying to catch scum (from any faction's point of view really). | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
First, lets start with Xfire's filter: Well, there's basically nothing. The only thing even close to an opinion he gave on gonzaw for the entire game was this post: On October 04 2012 10:32 Crossfire99 wrote: Ok, so I don't know if my vision is getting clouded by my opinion on how he's playing, but I think Jingle is kinda playing like a dick. Well i think he's acting like a dick towards gonzaw. His other posts don't seem so bad. He's just constantly attacking gonzaw in a dickish way and his concerns seem to be more petty concerns when compared to the overall view of gonzaw (at least how I see gonzaw). This leads me to see gonzaw as more townie and jingle more scummy. Certainly not conclusive, but I see this as much more scumbuddy'ish than him calling ghost town 4-5 times during the game. He never questioned gonzaw, gave an opinion, or had any interaction whatsoever with gonzaw. Okay, now onto gonzaw's filter: On October 01 2012 23:44 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, okay people, what do you guys think about lynching one of these guys: JingleHell Mementos Nisani CrossFire austin iamperfection And if you'd switch to one of them, why would you do it? Like I said before I have that same "weird" feeling about them, but again it seems none of them other than Mementos decided to show up to contribute at all. On October 02 2012 08:45 gonzaw wrote: **snip** ghost and Nisani are likely scum I think, Mementos and Crossfire are there too. ghost/Nisani/Mementos/Crossfire/Drazerk I think all remaining scum are in there **snip** Crossfire: This guy HAS to be scum. He has done 0 contributions at all and spent 70% of his post "joking" with Drazerk about how he's "confused" about him. On October 02 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote: @Crossfire: You know, the fact that you forgot it's plurality lynch and not majority lynch actually makes you look worse, since you parked your vote on iamperfection and left. If you were scum maybe you thought there would be a NL so you thought iamperfection was safe before disappearing. Is this the case? I don't know. If you don't give more thorough reads and actively participate in discussion while giving your thoughts on things discussed and your thought process (<-most important one) I and the rest of town can't know for sure. + Show Spoiler + Note, the above quote was also the same post where he said "Town, you impress me". Jingle pointed that out in his case against gonzaw as being disassociated from town. Maybe a weak point, but a point none-the-less. Crossfire, I'd also like more contributions, specially who you think is scum/suspicious or at least who you have doubts on. Try to take some initiative. I'm getting better vibes out of Crossfire since his interactions with me and other townies seem genuine this N1, at least that's the guy feeling I get. For fucks sake when will Crossfire or ghost ever come here to do something? It kind of bums me out Hiro/austin/Crossfire/ghost/Keirathi/Jingle didn't do anything all D2 right up until the very end but I thought it wouldn't have mattered (once Nisani flipped red) If I have to change my town reads on Hiro/ghost/austin/Crossfire/Jingle then I may end up getting confused again. Being in this situation also makes me doubt the other players still (Mattchew, austin and Crossfire). On October 05 2012 13:14 gonzaw wrote: Hell, if I'm so "obvious" scum it should be easy as hell for you to make that case on me. If I'm scum I'm basically begging you to catch me, convince everybody I'm scum and get me lynched. So why aren't you taking that chance? Don't you want other guys like austin/Crossfire/etc who think I'm town to realize what a scummy monster I am? This is a big one I think. Because nowhere do I see that crossfire ever expressed huge sentiment that gonzaw was town. Just a minor comment in a chainsaw defense of gonzaw. Where the hell are ghost, Mattchew, Crossfire, ghost and Hiro? None of them posted at all since D2 ended (except Mattchew for that unrelated post he made). Crossfire and Mattchew are town, but that seems obvious (still had quite a time trying to figure out if they were fooling me or not). Specially because of their NL shenanigans on D2. If S&B is town that NL business makes no fucking sense as scum (why try to force a NL if you can lynch the medic by doing nothing, and you can also lynch another medic/vet by switching your vote?) Pre-Post edit: sorry for all the quotes. I kinda feel like I needed them all to make my point. So anyways, my point. Your day 1 stance was HAS TO BE SCUM. And he did nothing (that I can tell) to change your mind, you just never pushed him. Since then, you've constantly lumped him into your lists. Like, almost every single time you've made a list, his name as been there. Its a pretty weak heuristic, but scum DO love to add their scumbuddy to their lists. We've all seen it countless times. Also, You constantly called him out for more activity, but spent a lot of time not actually talking about it. And, add on to that that since the flip, you've been OBSESSED with Black Scum. Outside of Jingle, I don't think there's anything else you've talked about. How much it changes the game, speculating about team sizes, calling ghost Black Scum, etc etc. It's basically all you've talked about, and that feels really Black Scum'y. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Drazerk red team. His self preservation kicked into overdrive once iamperfection died. gonzaw black team, because of above post. (ghost as a possible, but I think less likely at this point, backup). good game. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Your day 1 stance was HAS TO BE SCUM. And he did nothing (that I can tell) to change your mind, you just never pushed him. I explained it above, his interactions felt genuine, specially when he went on to explain why you were town and something else on N1. Meh I fell for it. After Mementos flipped (or maybe before I don't remember), seeing how people basically forced into me that Xfire was mostly townie for "hammering iamp" and stuff they convinced me (again, coupled with his interactions seeming genuine). Fuck I'm playing sloppily today. Anyways, as long as I'm not lynched today it doesn't worry me that much though. I'll have D4 to "defend myself" as black scum if it ever comes down to it. Also I'll save you the trouble of pointing it out later: Yes, if your thesis is correct, it does seem like I'm trying to save the other scum Drazerk from lynch and swinging it to a townie ghost to try and get both scum to cooperate before town kills us both. It's funny how some of these things turn out. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I'm interested in people's opinion on this. At least the day won't be a boring bandwagon on Drazerk. P.S: Just to clarify (again, just in case), I am waiting for ghost to come back and discussions to take place before voting. If the lynch was right now I'd lynch Drazerk anyways. The "weird" stuff that comes with him being scum is just not worth saving his ass from a lynch. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Is it just me, or do both of these things sound like things that would be EXTREMELY weird for a townie to say? On October 06 2012 14:47 gonzaw wrote: If they were normal scum I'd say it's too obvious. It's still possible they counted on BS being hidden most of the game (like they were), specially after both of them were "almost confirmed town" because of interactions with iamperfection. But I think this is kind of stretching it and making leaps of logic. Hopefully that interaction doesn't mean much. On October 06 2012 15:44 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, as long as I'm not lynched today it doesn't worry me that much though. I'll have D4 to "defend myself" as black scum if it ever comes down to it. The first one sounds like he wants to still lynch ghost, even though he came tot he conclusion that the interactions don't make much sense from a scumteam perspective. The second sounds an awfully lot like someone with one of those non-standard KP roles that he's been so obsessed with (arsonist?). Maybe voting him over Drazerk today is a good idea. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
1)I wouldn't say it makes me want to lynch ghost, but rather still think he's BS. I'd prefer lynching RS over BS if the factional KP theory is correct. But yes, that interaction is weird, and it may not "make sense from a scumteam perspective". But I'm running out of options here, and no matter who I look at I find something that makes me doubt him being BS. Surely one of those things is wrong. 2)I don't see the resemblance to be honest. I just don't mind having discussion about me going around as long as I don't get lynched for it | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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