EPTaustin, I'd like to see a response to Mementoss's post on you.
Aperture Mafia 2: Portal Edition - Page 24
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
austin, I'd like to see a response to Mementoss's post on you. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On October 03 2012 08:04 HiroPro wrote: hm. nisani and s&b, what are your biggest scum reads? austin, I'd like to see a response to Mementoss's post on you. honestly i dont think a scum austin is bold enough to shoot mementoss | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:52 Mementoss wrote: Any reason for leaving out mattchew, strongandbig, hiropro, keirathi, drazerk? lol you can't make a list with 6/12 players (not including yourself) That is way too broad, you can't think they are all scum, and its way too easy for scum just to pick one that is not scum and go hey look, why 6 players instead of maybe 3. On October 01 2012 23:56 Mementoss wrote: DEWBOP: Since when does gonzaw need convincing of who to lynch, isn't gonzaw the one that usually does the convincing? On October 02 2012 08:54 Mementoss wrote: wat Didn't do anything First one to post a case on Iamperfection and make a case Also, what timing. No posting since you left but you manage to make it back 50 minutes after the night post. But nothing before the deadline. Also this last post before you take off for the rest of the day struck me as odd. Pretty weak reason to switch/ odd timing: Also the tone in your posts don't seem like your town self. On October 02 2012 08:58 Mementoss wrote: Also @gonzaw, austin is most likely town for what? Sheeping onto iamperfection when mattchew told him to? Trying to counterwagon a last minute switch onto keirathi? Dude, either your out of it this game or scum not sure. Now obviously, he was a solid target no matter what for an NK, since he got perfection, but this is someone who hasn't been baited into an argument by Gonzaw who seems to have also had some serious doubts. I've said what I felt about him already myself. ##Vote Gonzaw | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On October 03 2012 08:07 HiroPro wrote: why not? its wifom but just a gut feeling | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 03 2012 08:11 Mattchew wrote: JH why not austin? Mattchew, why not Gonzaw? As Memen said, austin DID explain a lot of those things, he just thought they were justification. I can't be sure one way or the other with austin, he's given alternately scummy and towny vibes to me. When I get back from TKD, I'll try and take a better look through. Got to leave soonish, and there's a bit to wade through, and context will probably matter. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On October 03 2012 08:20 JingleHell wrote: Mattchew, why not Gonzaw? As Memen said, austin DID explain a lot of those things, he just thought they were justification. I can't be sure one way or the other with austin, he's given alternately scummy and towny vibes to me. When I get back from TKD, I'll try and take a better look through. Got to leave soonish, and there's a bit to wade through, and context will probably matter. i just find it very strange how quickly you are willing to jump on gonzaw cause of meme pushing him, while not jumping on austin for the same reason.. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 03 2012 08:35 Mattchew wrote: i just find it very strange how quickly you are willing to jump on gonzaw cause of meme pushing him, while not jumping on austin for the same reason.. One, I was already thinking Gonzaw was scummy, Meme, it seems, had similar doubts. Austin I was on the fence about, and if you'll notice, Meme's post even ADMITS that Austin has what can be taken as fair explanations, so it's down to whether you accept those explanations. Which is why I'm digging through them later. Got to run out the door time now, though, just finished getting my shit together to go. Cheers. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
gggg | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
First things first: Was someone saved? Did a vig shoot someone? Was someone RBed. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Disclaimer: Ignore this if you are butthurt about setup speculation and night kill speculation I take it Mementos did jail someone last night, so anyone claiming RBed would be nice to figure out who did. Don't really know how that Rat Den thing works...are people still allowed to be jailed? It's possible Mementos jailed Keirathi or austin and they were shot, meaning we'd have 3 remaining scum or a SK or maybe a vig shot Mementos (unlikely but still possible). If we go by the assumption there are 2 scum left (and 3 scum total, which seems fine for a 13 player game), then Mementos was killed by scum and there was no other saved KP. Night Kill Speculation: Well, let's just first assume it was a scum kill. Seems that scum were scared they couldn't actively push Mementos because of his "town cred" of voting iamperfection first and sticking with his vote. It is entirely possible a scum austin would kill mementos to avoid the pressure and then say "I wouldn't do that as scum"....but really I haven't really seen that happen when non-vet-players are concerned (i.e if it was wbg or Ace or something I wouldn't just shrug it off). Seems possible scum just saw an opportunity to kill the "guy that will be difficult to lynch" and put some suspicion on austin, whether they intend to act on it or not (as long as it's not suspicion on them). Tune in next post for actual content... | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On October 03 2012 05:32 Mementoss wrote: My thoughts on Austinmcc: When I think of everyone in the game the person that sticks out most to me as scum is austinmcc. I realize that most of these points were explained by austin, but any decent scum player can explain things after the fact of doing them. So I figured id sum up my thoughts in this post. 2. Keeps implying finding keirathi but is too scared to actually place a vote on him, even after complaining about people not consolidating on the votes. Wouldn't austin want to place a vote on keirathi and start pushing him now?? Nope. No fucks were given by austin about keirathis lynch. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 00:31 austinmcc wrote: Alright, done some rereading. My number 1 concern at this point is the number of side squabbles and useless votes that we've got. Previous votecount had 6 people with votes, and I think we're still about as spread out as we were before. Stuff like: Drazerk/snb very interested in each other. Both voting each other, in part, based on what seems to be "He should understand my play better." I don't want to lynch either of them today, and telling me that some other player should understand you better doesn't make me want to lynch that other guy. The votes feel entirely wasted. ghost's vote is wasted. Votes keirathi for trying too hard, never engages anyone else who's talking about keirathi. nisani201 still has a vote on Drazerk for Drazerk's initial response to Keirathi. Followed by very little else and Can't single people out for not contributing, but those votes look like they've been made without any attempt to convince anyone else, and they don't feel like they're serving a purpose. JH, how is PTP3 pushing you to play this way? Why exactly do you find that performance embarrassing, and how is it driving you to play the way you are this game? Is it just the constant pushing of Grush and trying to get people on that lynch? + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 00:58 austinmcc wrote: Those jumps are based on what you did in the meantime. Here's my initial post: I didn't see your unvote for weak reasons as scummy. Drazerk had just posted that it was third party or idiot, I didn't find it to be telling at all because the reasoning behind the vote in the first place didn't seem strong. Then after that post, you give your explanation and justification. THAT is what I feel is scummy, reminds me of scum. I'm not concerned about you unvoting based on some weak comments from matt (What drazerk mentioned and what I didn't find scummy), I'm concerned about you based on your later explanation where you claim to have wanted discussion and opinions yet unvote before any of that ever appears. Right now, I'm scummy on you. I'm not going to lead a crusade to lynch you because the way you explained a plan reminds of what a scum player in another game did, however. For now I'm looking elsewhere for today's lynch, and I'm watching you. I'm alright with the way you discussed Ghost when talking to Gonzaw, I don't think someone can get a free pass for a terrible vote and then not pushing it at all. If you want me to keep looking at you, fine. What's up with this? You've been doing more in thread, but it seems like you're getting on JH for saying he's doing exactly what you've said you're doing. Why is it fine for you to wait to scumhunt until you've got enough to make a case, but it's not alright for JH to wait before pushing someone? 4. Town reads on Mattchew and Gonzaw. Explained to the max. This just gives me the wrong feeling and reminds me of Palmar from rockband to a bigger extreme. I know he was asked to do this, but the extent he did it, espeically on day 1 town reads. It seems like he actually knows their alignments. This time coulda been spent scum hunting, or provoking some sort of discussion. No one was even thinking of voting either of these two atm, so why give a huge town read on them? Who are you convincing? Who does this help for day 1? + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 04:26 austinmcc wrote: On Mattchew, it's a couple of his posts. In particular, this one: I'd just mentioned not liking drazerk/snb being so focused on each other:The fact that Mattchew was similarly critical gives me a townie feel. Drazerk's questions the last couple of pages have been good. I hope he would be playing the same way regardless of my comment or matt's comment, I don't think they influenced him, but he and snb being so focused on each other wasn't really helping town based on the reasoning they were providing. His iamperfection question to me felt townie. It's...an odd way to phrase something as scum? Like, you can just say "What is your read?" or "Would you vote iamperfection?" Instead he asks why I'm not voting with him, just an odd little bit of creativity. scumMatt from what I'm seen is either disinterested or...claims scum. Creative questions don't fit the bill for either of those. He's continued to pursue iamperfection, in a noticeably different way than the early voters that I've been critical of. Whereas ghost/nisani just left the thread, and iamperfection stayed focused on ghost, Mattchew has been actively commenting on other matters, has been asking questions to others, has been trying to get iamperfection lynched. It stands out so differently from behavior that I'm finding scummy in others. The gonzaw read is weaker, but the way he returned to thread feels like he was being gonzaw-y. Spammy, finding lots of little stuff, talking about it. In particular, things like this:I like finding odd interactions or posts. This was one of those...interesting finds. Not necessarily scummy, but worth noting. He noted it, explained why he was interested, and then went further later in the post to vote JH after adding in some other stuff. I like that he pulled out a weird interaction, didn't completely disregard it, didn't blast anyone for it, but used it to look further at someone. He asked this which was a good question and something I was going to ask until I saw he'd already done so. He also comes off townie in the way he addresses mementoss here: As I read it, he's concerned with mementoss's post on me. Instead of straight-up saying that, or directly confronting mementoss, he just sort of asks this minor question. What are you doing with it now? It shows me that he's trying to piece things together, that he's actively thinking about alignments. He could have burst in with "this post makes me feel weird," but he doesn't, and dangling that question out without giving a full read comes of townie to me. 5. Finally votes keirathi!! But with only 45 minutes till lynch deadline.... Why?! WHY?! When he has clearly been on him and thought he was scum all day he waits till 45 minutes left to try and lynch him. I'll tell you why, because Iamperfection his teamate the godfather the jack of all trades glados was about to die. 7. Is aware he plays scummy on day 1, but has no motivation to change it. This is really just an excuse for acting scummy while being scum. I gotta go now. But that is all I have. Austin has had some townie posts in his filter I will admit, but the strange way he goes about things makes me think he is scum. His contradictions that he doesn't think are contradictions make me think he is scum. I think the chunks I left might be worth building a case around. Bolded/underlined him pointing to a possible connection involving Gonzaw (and Mattchew, but for now, giving Matt BOTD for reasons already stated). I think a lot of the rest of it is down to how you read it, and didn't find those chunks particularly noteworthy compared to what I left. I don't think a scum Austin and a scum Gonzaw are at all mutually exclusive, and I'd lynch either at the moment on the current evidence, but I prefer Gonzaw just because one of his scumslips happened to be inflammatory comments directed at me, which will make it more gratifying. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Well, thank you scum for shooting a suspect instead of, let's say, Hiro or Keirathi or austin. This leaves me 3 guys I'm suspicious of for now: Drazerk, S&B and Nisani. If we go by the "there are 3 scum" theory, then there should be 2 scum in there. The most "useful" out of them is Drazerk (and that isn't saying much). There's a sort of fearless way he posts that doesn't really make me feel he's scum (like I said before I think). He's kind of overconfident in his "trolling". He posts lots of one-liners which is null-scummy at best, but meh, gut feeling tells me he'd post less "advice" as scum and try to shit up the thread more (if he's going by the "post trolling one-liners" route) instead of just sort of "being" there posting whatever comes across his mind and not caring about anything. He goes to the bottom of that list. It doesn't really help that the other 2 guys on that list want him dead so bad. strongandbig: I again repeat what I said before: he had 7 posts on D1 and 4 of them were smaller than 3 lines (and didn't have any content at all). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174&user=116463 On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote: here's what im thinking right now hiro might be scum because he's posted a lot of small one-liners and asked a bunch of questions but not actually contributed much of anything of his own in terms of reads or analysis. drazerk might be scum because he switched his read from keirathi to me for little reason. not giving any reason why he unvoted keirathi shows that he doesn't really care about who he votes for, he just wants to push the thread around. he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired. mattchew is sort of trying to scumhunt. this is very helpful in narrowing down his playstyle. he's either doing his bus-all-the-scum scum routine, or he's actually townie. mattchew very rarely makes up fake scum reads on town players when he's scum, he either posts cases on his teammates or just lurks the shit out of everything. so what that means is you can put a high amount of trust that his reads are genuine - he's either bussing or actually trying to find scum. crossfire99 - pretty focused on drazerk nisani - lol. what a "case". also ##vote: drazerk I think he's probably scum and I want him out of this game. This post has 0 committal. It's not only just a list of "sort of" reads, but it's a list with no context at all that he never dwells back on. He never mentions Hiro, Mattchew or Crossfire again. This is just a big pile of fluff and it disappoints me S&B would post this instead of interacting with people and fleshing out his reads in the thread. Making 1 paragraph saying "Mattchew is trying to scumhunt, could be scum or not" is not a read or content at all. If he had started talking to Mattchew or trying to figure out Mattchew's alignment it would be one thing, but he just drops a "stupid" list and doesn't even care about it. Same with this one: On October 03 2012 03:11 strongandbig wrote: Sorry I've been less than up to my standards. Been busy, whatever. /shrugs. A few thoughts: 1. Because the vote was so close and there were so few ppl on iamperfection, it would not have looked bad for scum to be somewhere else and any scum on iamperfection could relatively easily have switched to avert his lynch. If there was scum on him it was sub-optimal play. Scum do stupid things; I got hammered by my teammates once while I was off playing dota. But in the balance I propose looking away from the iamperfection voters for now. 2. Drazerk's whole play is based around the premise "I refuse to try and look or be townie, so fuck you for trying to analyze me." We should kill him, it's the only sensible town response to that play. Also I think he's scum because he jumps around on votes without a care in the world, and because of that circular reasoning thing from before. Still, I'm not as sure about him as I have been in the past. 3. Getting medium bad vibes from jingle, but I can't put my finger on why. 4. Nisani looks pretty useless - his reasoning for voting Drazerk is pretty dumb IMO and it seems like he's doing some stupidly weak pressure. Like the best he came up with was "too many null reads". 5. I can't remember the last time Austin was scum, any help? Laters One thing I can't possibly understand is his fixation with Drazerk. Ever since his 1st post he's been 100% obsessed with lynching Drazerk without any solid reasoning. He just states "Drazerk calls me out because I called him out, but he should have known I call him out every game so he's scum" and "Drazerk says he doesn't care about winning". Yes, maybe those points are enough to warrant suspicion on Drazerk, but not to spend 100% of your posts trying to lynch him and forgetting about everything else. There's also the fact that he didn't try to get Drazerk lynched at all, he just FoSed him and disappeared until after the deadline. Also I find odd how he calls out Nisani both times: nisani - lol. what a "case". Nisani looks pretty useless - his reasoning for voting Drazerk is pretty dumb IMO and it seems like he's doing some stupidly weak pressure. Like the best he came up with was "too many null reads". ...but he never does anything with it? I don't really like making connections between living players since I'm generally wrong, but shit if that isn't a "let's pressure my scumbuddy but not get him lynched" action. Nisani: On September 30 2012 14:32 Nisani201 wrote: ##Vote: Drazerk I don't understand why he's still pushing against Keirathi. His plan was clearly poorly thought out, I see no scum motivation behind it. Drazerk is taking a newbie mistake and calling it scum play. Like I said before this post struck me as odd, since Nisani had 0 contributions in the thread yet came out of nowhere with a vote almost instantly. Same with JingleHell, but at least JingleHell seemed genuine about it (i.e he came suddenly and forcefully into the thread and has kept up his activity and forceful..ness? ever since). Nisani came "strong" into the thread, like he instantly knew Drazerk was scum without ever trying to join a discussion and then disappeared. On October 02 2012 06:33 Nisani201 wrote: Alright I've finally caught up on the thread. First of all, I understand what jingle is saying about being discouraged to be aggressive because of playing a lot of shitty games. I've played plenty of bad games as town and they don't push me to play better. See learned helplessness. I also think it's unfair to call out Jingle for not scumhunting because he's been under fire this entire game. I don't think he's scum. I'm null on perfection-- I don't like how he's only talking about ghost but other than that he doesn't have anything else scummy about him. I'd like to hear about his reads on other people. I still don't understand why we're letting Drazerk get away with playing an incredibly shitty game. He has *way* too many null reads and is barely contributing. I'm going to keep my vote on him. I mean just look through his filter and you'll see how little he's contributed. Gonzaw is someone I'm going to spend some more time looking into. Something feels off about him. This is his only contribution in the game other than his Drazerk vote. This post feels wrong: -His defense of Jingle feels like it came out of nowhere -He's "null" on perfection and spouts some wishywashy stuff about him and puts the usual "I want him to post more reads, I'll wait for him" scum tactic scum always use with their buddies (I should know of I always use it). -He's now fixated on Drazerk again, but for completely different reasons than in his 1st post, and he never explains his change of opinion on Drazerk (or rather what made him "upgrade" his read). Making an initial vote early on D1 because of some stupid play is not the same as heavily FoSing someone because they lack contributions and shit, and that transition he made doesn't feel genuine at all. A townie would at least try to explain his read and how his read evolved (for instance saying something like "I initially thought Drazerk was scum just because he was taking advantage of that, but reading his filter more and more he lacks contributions, like here *example* and bla bla bla"). He's just doing the same thing S&B is doing and FOS Drazerk with as little reasoning as possible, never trying to push for his lynch and never caring about anything else that's happening other than making a "contribution" post with irrelevant stuff that they never discuss ever again. Anyways, I don't really know who to vote of, I want them both dead. I think Nisani is more likely to be scum though, so let's start there: ##Vote: Nisani201 I just don't know if S&B is purposefully trolling and playing like shit for some reason. In Can't Believe he did some "trolling posts" on D1 as well, but at least he was more active. P.S [Speculation] Shit now that I think about it it's possible all 3 of S&B, Nisani, Drazerk are scum and are making a super bus play or something (since it seems that's the only thing scum do these days). But I'm wary of that since it would have meant I got all 3 scum correct last night and scum chose not to shoot me and shot the 4th guy from my list...and well that's too convinient (even though it could have happened and they did it to WIFOM me, like when scum didn't shoot Nova in Magic Mini and countless of times). | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Anyways, I would be pretty happy with an austin lynch today. The fact that he was so back and forth on me for the whole day actually voting, then suddenly deciding that I'm scummy enough for a vote only AFTER ghost comes in and makes his case, when it was pretty clear that it could get some support and maybe drag votes away from iamperfection, is scummy as hell. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
You are willing to entertain the idea that 2 of the most active players, and most contributors (in a way) are scum but you won't entertain the idea that guys that didn't do shit on D1 or N1, where never around, didn't care about discussion or the lynch at all, and the only contribution they had was 1 post with a "list" of reads that were full of fluff aren't? Entertain the idea please, at least so you pay attention to them. If you think they are town and me or austin scum then please state so | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
By that rationale, there's only two ways scum didn't shoot a "suspect", and that's if they shot one of their own, or nobody at all. Just to add to the pile of reasons I prefer killing him before Austin. Plus, of course, he casually dismisses the possibility of Austin wanting Mementoss dead a bit ago. On October 03 2012 11:08 gonzaw wrote: It is entirely possible a scum austin would kill mementos to avoid the pressure and then say "I wouldn't do that as scum"....but really I haven't really seen that happen when non-vet-players are concerned (i.e if it was wbg or Ace or something I wouldn't just shrug it off). Look, he says Austin probably wouldn't do that. But then, Austin doesn't have to when Gonzaw can do it for him. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
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