EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 30
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 02 2012 08:01 Omniscient4983 wrote: 4) Be decisive. The thread doesn't need to know every thought you have. You're talking about this person, then that person, then that guy over there. It's not that these cases aren't truthful/don't hold merit. I just find all of it to be a bit excessive. I apologize if it's inherently wrong to view it in such a manner. That's bs. I am being decisive. My cases on d1 brought Z-bo and Djo into the light. Since then I focused on Z-Bo. Now, d2, my cases are 1) a response to Z-Bo's question addressed directly at me (the case briefly talking about Djo and Remedy, then getting a little in depth about you and extensively with corrosion) and 2) A case on Alsn, who is my top scumread Right now, I am also waiting for a response from the mods about corrosion. He is my second scum read. If the cases are true/hold merit, what is wrong with them? Instead of going off on someone who is trying to help, you should focus your attention on people who aren't. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I agree with your Alsn post. However, the arguments you made are repetitive of the cases made by SDM, Z-Bo, and me. Reread his last post about me and Z-Bo, and you'll find it contributes little more than his d1 posts. Also, something I don't like about one of Alsn's latest post On October 02 2012 00:21 Alsn wrote: That was an obs QT. I was commenting as an observer, not as a player. If you really wanted to know how I play you should check my last actual game. I never committed to anyone as scum in that game either, for the same reasons as now. I am not confident at all that I have found any scum yet. The only one's that are giving me scum vibes are you and some of the lurky posters, but having gone through their filters I keep coming up with any compelling reasons that I can't hand wave away in my head as "this guy is probably new". Right now I can only go on the fact that I find you scummier than anyone else, but I'm actually quite scared of the possibility that some of the people I think are town might really just be clever scum. I'm not all that convinced about you to be honest but if I had to wager I'd give you flipping scum something like a 40% chance. I need more information and for now I'd be content with confirming your alignment. If you were town, you wouldn't be content with just "confirming someone's alignment". That's not scumhunting. That's an excuse and a poor excuse at that. And you bring up reasoning that you fear some who you think are town are scum. If you feel that they are scum, where are your cases against them? | ||
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Omniscient4983
United States32 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
Just a quick post from work. It looks like either Alsn or debears are going to be lynched today. I'm totally fine with that because they are actually my scumteam right now. I'd prefer a debears lynch because of my cases against him so my vote is on him right now but I guess we are going to end up lynching Alsn for the following reasons:
Also DarthPunk has made an early vote him so I'm pretty sure town is gonna sheep on him at the end. But please don't do this ! Try to come out with your own decisions  Nevertheless, I might need to switch my vote to secure a lynch on Alsn. If so, I'm going to do it 5 hours before the deadline when I go to bed. Also I'm seriously promising you here a better post regarding why I suspect Alsn. Now regarding corrosion, I think he is the wagon mafia is going to try to push today so please take your time to read his filter twice (not so long  ) with the following glasses:
And decide for yourself See ya ! PS: I'm hoping for Lesrah to catch up quickly | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Alsn has been flip flopping on who to target This post came right after his big post on me and Alsn, the post in which he found that I might be scummy. + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 03:55 Alsn wrote: And that took me just about 6 hours. In the end the only thing I managed to conclude was that I think we need more information. Hopefully I can find something more conclusive during the next couple of days, assuming I don't get NKd but I find that hard to believe right now. I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep. Here he wants to focus on the lurkers, stating the he doesn't think the people he is focusing on is scummy after he makes a big post on me and Z-Bo. Weird, he doesn't make any cases on lurkers. Instead, he suddenly decides to vote for me after reading my case against him. + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 21:46 Alsn wrote: Ok, reading debears case against me from yesterday I'm pretty sure I can go along with a lynch on him. I'd like to preface it by saying I've examined most players now, and so far I have yet to find a bigger scum read than what I'm now convinced I have on debears. First of all the following statement: Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I also think however that debears was quite successful as scum last game. I particularly went to consider his case against thrawn, which is very similar to the way he has been constructing cases in this game. Massive posts pointing out inconsistencies and errors, but not much in the way of explaining what's so scum motivated by that. On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior. This post by corrosion actually seems quite apt and I realize that I've probably been overestimating how useful it is to try and explain myself down to the very least detail. It strikes me that while corrosion said it in a pretty blunt way that suggests he doesn't want to read what people say, my posts could definitely have been shorting and more to the point.' Conclusion There are other things I could point to in debears case, In general I get the feeling that he is doing the exact same thing to me that he did against Z-BosoN, making massive cases where if people read the entire thing, they're bound to find something they agree with. This feels like his meta from the final parts of NMMXVII, so I'm now convinced that debears is scum. ##Vote: debears Rereading his vote post on me, I realize that this seems way to OMGUS. He NEVER addresses the main point of my post against him, the fact that he has done zero scumhunting. He only brought up one point of the whole post, the qt thread. The fact is, in the qt thread he made thorough cases, which he has failed to do here. Next, he tries to automatically discredit my case with almost no refutation by saying it is similar to thrawn's case. It isn't. Thrawn's case was based on him switching back and forth on his votes after making big cases on others and also the whole mason killer thing (lol). Anyways, my case on Alsn is distinct in the fact that it points out that he hasn't scumhunted while posting quite a bit of indecisive crap, which has huge mafia motivations. Thus, it must mean he is voting for me based on the style of my long posts. I think he mentioned his views on accusing people based on style earlier: So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Contradiction, unless he believes my post was shitty content. In that case, why didn't he easily refute the main point of the case? He's avoiding making any kind of defense for himself and shifting the focus elsewhere. Also, notice how he suddenly directs his refutations to a post from corrosion saying that corrosion didn't feel like reading anymore. Why is that post relevant to refutation of my post and the vote on me? It's way out of place in this post. Then, he comes back and says my meta (large posting and the case on thrawn) is the reason for his vote for me. Really? Does he realize meta is more than just how big my posts are? Last I checked it has to do with emotion, defensiveness, voting patterns, etc. How did this suddenly justify a vote for me in his eyes? He didn't think I was scum as he stated earlier when he talked about the people he has focused on as stated above. Finally, a post I addressed earlier, but is relevant to how he has bounced around. He now thinks that some of his town reads might be scum. What's with the back and forth? ##Vote: Alsn The case against Alsn has multiple parts covered by Z-Bo, SDM, and me. Those cases, and the fact that I haven't seen you put up a good answer to why you aren't scumhunting and the fact that you still aren't scumhunting while being indecisive is a huge indicator of scum. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On October 02 2012 11:23 Djodref wrote: Hello guys ! Just a quick post from work. It looks like either Alsn or debears are going to be lynched today. I'm totally fine with that because they are actually my scumteam right now. I'd prefer a debears lynch because of my cases against him so my vote is on him right now but I guess we are going to end up lynching Alsn for the following reasons:
Also DarthPunk has made an early vote him so I'm pretty sure town is gonna sheep on him at the end. But please don't do this ! Try to come out with your own decisions Nevertheless, I might need to switch my vote to secure a lynch on Alsn. If so, I'm going to do it 5 hours before the deadline when I go to bed. Also I'm seriously promising you here a better post regarding why I suspect Alsn. Now regarding corrosion, I think he is the wagon mafia is going to try to push today so please take your time to read his filter twice (not so long ) with the following glasses:
And decide for yourself See ya ! PS: I'm hoping for Lesrah to catch up quickly Hi Djo! I agree. Let's lynch Debears. Case incoming. <3 | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Bring it on | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I will look carefully through both their filters. It's tough, because I've read some of XXVII and debears did a pretty good job as scum, and Alsn almost has no meta to look at. I am extremely busy at the moment, so I'll probably just end up voting, and giving light reasoning behind it. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote: @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush Starts the Game with a FoS on Kush. On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote: @Darthpunk Do you have links to all your previous games? I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early. Then after I push kush for reasons similar to the cause of his won FoS he imply's suspicion on me. This is AFTER kush's scumslip when it is obviouskush is scum. At this point I was incredulous so I ask debears to comment on the case instead of saying 'I am coming off strong' He post this. On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote: As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information. Honestly. A brazen scumslip from the person you FoS in your first post and all he says is there is not much to say about it and it gives the 'impression of extra information' This was the moment I first became suspicious of debears. He has, in the space of a few posts, gone from a confident FoS on kush to unsure and soft defending him. On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: @darthpunk You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted. -snip- Soft defending Kush. At this point Kush had slipped, had conformed to the scum meta that Debears KNOWS 100% from last game and Debears had FoS'd Kush in his first post for conforming to. Yet, the harder I push kush, the more Debears soft defends him. He then tries to shift attention from kush by posting 2 cases on other players. On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote: @darth When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond. You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point. I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. Read the bold. If that is not the most contradictory soft defense I have ever seen. I don;t know what is. Next up we have his 'slip' On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote: @Djoref Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great This is just funny. Just like kush calling me the most active townie and then calling me his top scum read, posting a case on someone then directing them to the town coach is incredibly disingenuous. Probably not enough to lynch him on it's own but I feel it is important because: a.) It is a slip that is unrelated to the Kush/darthpunk arguments. b.) He is scummy independent of this. Moving on. Here are a series of strange posts by Debears on Kush. Whom he FoS'd day one and who had slipped On September 29 2012 08:15 debears wrote: lol kush....what's up with you today? On September 29 2012 08:37 debears wrote: @kush Why the sudden no care attitude? You come in to the game brimming with confidence from last game, citing your deathless streak yet again. However, no you have seemed to give up with so a small amount of pressure (from darth and sonic) when you have plenty of time to help us out. Then after kush has his melt down, His attitude changes dramatically. From the above to full bus mode. in the space of a post. On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote: I just can't buy this bullshit. You are either 1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched. or 2) A little bitch I see 1 more likely from having played with you. You put in a good game and I had a lot of fun. This is just ruining this game. I don't see you pulling this off as a town. For that reason, combined with the aforementioned scumslips. ##Vote Kushm4sta I laughed at the bold. He called the slip 'the impression of extra information' but now when he starts to Bus Kush it is a scumslip. His next post. On September 29 2012 13:12 debears wrote: And @kush I am aware of the situation. I hope we can remain friends after my comments earlier. . However, i do have 2 suspects at this point. Fortunately, i have my sam adams to wash away any doubt i have going into the next couple days. At this point, i see you condemned with no alternative. Please though next game follow through on your pre game enthusiam. You are better than this Condemed with no alternative. Almost like he was looking for an out and couldn't find one and thus bussed. On September 29 2012 13:47 debears wrote: @darthpunk Currently, you should know one of my suspects based on a heated discussion btw him and me. The other i am waiting for a few more posts to give him a fair opportunity. The second one is a wildcard. Tomorrow i will build a casebfor him when I'm at my computer and in a better ba situation to make a suitable case This next post is scummy as shit. He has 3 scum reads but won't reveal them. Aside from his OMGUS of Z - Boson. OK. this is getting Long. So this can end most of the association stuff and behaviour around Kush. The next part looks at his reluctance to be scum by association before kush flips red. And before someone says 'oh it was obvious kush was red' Yeah it really was. Except Debears' behaviour does not line up with that at all | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On October 02 2012 13:53 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm still highly indecisive on debears or alsn. I will look carefully through both their filters. It's tough, because I've read some of XXVII and debears did a pretty good job as scum, and Alsn almost has no meta to look at. I am extremely busy at the moment, so I'll probably just end up voting, and giving light reasoning behind it.  Don't prioritise your other game so much over this one please. | ||
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Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 02 2012 13:55 DarthPunk wrote: Don't prioritise your other game so much over this one please.Haha I'm playing that game so crappily because I'm not giving it much attention at all. Had to take some time off to stop playing shitty. Reading your case | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
This looks at how debears is desperate to dispel an association with kush immediately, before he even flips. On September 29 2012 14:08 debears wrote: Why am i scum by association? Someone want to provide a clesr case so i csn refutre it? Wants to defend himself immediately. Kush Has not flipped. And in his next post states that Kush could still be town. Why would a townie that clearly wasn't positive of the outcome of the flip be so eager to dispel any association cases. Unless he is scum knows and knows how kush will flip and is On September 29 2012 13:12 debears wrote: aware of the situation. On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote: @djo What parts of his case specifically do you believe? His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out. There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes 1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch 2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him. Which has less assumptions? Number 1. I am not quoting the entire post in this next part because it is massive and has formatting errors. Go back and read it though. He is desperate to defend himself from the association with kush. Despite kush not flipping, and despite Debears stating in that very post that kush could flip town. And that I would have wasted a day lynching him. The rest is OMGUS against Z- boson. On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote: How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game. Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1? Back to soft defending kush and discredditing myself etc. Despite calling kush scum earlier. But once again if he is that uncertain why does he try so hard to discredit any association between his behaviour around kush? Because he is aware of the situation. He knows kush will flip red and he knows he is in the shit. Let me tell you right now. Scum were 100% not expecting to get caught day one. Therefore they are very likely to have been caught out during this time. Debears reeks of scumminess. His turn around from soft defense to over eager attack in his vote post looks like a bus to me. The fact that he naturally soft defends kush again whilst defending himself is worth considering as is his 'slip' on djodref. Also note the difference in his play post kush flip. He starts tunnelling Alsn super hard. This is after stating several times the previous day how bad it was that I tunnelled Kush. ##Unvote ##Vote: Debears | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
Protip: I never proof read. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
Your case is repetitive of what has already been said multiple times. You read too much into "golden scumslips". They are rare (or so I'm told). Anyways, as I explained earlier. Your meta as scum threw me off such strong commitment from you about kush. Whether you believe that or not is your deal. I would advise everyone to look at my post about Darth's meta. If you look at my d1 posts about kush from that perspective it makes sense why. 1) I never discredited Darth. I told him only to calm down 2) I never actually defended kush. Never did the words come out of my mouth that anything kush said was not scummy or less scummy than anyone thought. Think about the above hard Darth. My "slip" is another point I have already addressed. If you want to not believe anything I say, go ahead. Next, you cite the exchange between me and kush which you found "strange". You are overlooking the fact that I had immense respect for kush after last game (as well as jacob) because I had a lot of fun with him and he was a good teammate. Next, the sudden change was due to pretty much an epiphony. I was having trouble deciding whether or not kush was genuinely giving up because the evidence was against him. It threw me way off his last game as scum. He did not, at all, even when considered suspicious by thrawn, act in that manner. I finally realized he must have been mafia trying to pity his way out since he his desire to win is strong. About the aware of the situation post, it was simply a bit giving respect to kush. And then the final part you address. You are misreading. I had 2 scumreads at that point (1-Z-Bo, 2 - SDM). I had to wait on announcing SDM (which I did after the lynch) as my second because his activity level was way different d1 of this game compared to last game although his posts had been good. His activity level has increased so I don't have concerns right now about him. And about reluctant to be scum by association. That is a stupid argument. My problem was with Z-Bo's retarded assocation by modwarning case which others had seen as rational. I do have a really good question for you though: Why do you want to vote me over Alsn? Differences between us: 1) Contribution - I have provided multiple extensive cases while Alsn has had nilch. In other words, I have actually scumhunted. Alsn said all day 1 how people should make cases and bring others to light. Instead, he focuses on the exchange between me and Z-Bo, and comes to no conclusions. 2) Defense of kush - He actually defended kush, calling kush's sips "not damning". Instead of infering what people mean you should look at what they actually say. 3) Answering Questions - I have addressed all these questions up front. Alsn has managed to dodge many questions and accusations, especially the ones about his lack of scumhunting 4) Length of "Scum actions" - a great majority of your case is based only on day 1, with no mention of anything I have done day 2. Alsn has continued to do nothing. How long ago did you make up your mind that I was confirmed scum? Have you actually read through all my posts from n1, d2 and reevaluate your position? Do you feel my posting has more scum motivation than Alsn's? That is probably the most important question. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
If your vote is not properly formatted it will not be counted. Everyone is required to vote. debears (3) - djodref, Omniscient4983, Darthpunk, Alsn (2) - Sonic Death Monkey, debears, no lynch (1) corrosion Not Voting (5) - Lesrah, Z-Boson, Alsn, RemedySC, Stutters695, With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Currently, nobody is set to be lynched! If you see that your vote is incorrect then pm me. You have about 14 hours 25 minutes left to vote! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00) | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
@everyone Not sure what my practice schedule is for tomorrow. Usually my practices start at @2:30, which is right before lynch time my time. I'll be at lynch if it is possible. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: @Darth Your case is repetitive of what has already been said multiple times. Yep. But that is because the points are valid. I also arrived to those same conclusions independent of others. Which lends even more weight to their validity. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: You read too much into "golden scumslips". They are rare (or so I'm told). That is an opinion. In the past 4 games I have played in scum have slipped in each and that ahs lead to their lynch. I can even link you the posts. But the overwhelming majority of the case on you does not rely on the slip. As you well know seeing as you just read it. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: Anyways, as I explained earlier. Your meta as scum threw me off such strong commitment from you about kush. Whether you believe that or not is your deal. I would advise everyone to look at my post about Darth's meta. If you look at my d1 posts about kush from that perspective it makes sense why. 1) I never discredited Darth. I told him only to calm down 2) I never actually defended kush. Never did the words come out of my mouth that anything kush said was not scummy or less scummy than anyone thought. Think about the above hard Darth. My meta does not explain your contradictions in behaviour towards kush, whom you had FoS'd nor does it explain the rapid attempt to dispell any association between you before he flipped. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: My "slip" is another point I have already addressed. If you want to not believe anything I say, go ahead. And is probably the weakest part of the case on you. However it is just a smaller part of a mountain of evidence. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: Next, you cite the exchange between me and kush which you found "strange". You are overlooking the fact that I had immense respect for kush after last game (as well as jacob) because I had a lot of fun with him and he was a good teammate. Then why, if you had such enormous respect for him, would you call him a 'little bitch' in your very next post? Because you were flip-flopping and you decided to bus and wanted to make it seem genuine. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: Next, the sudden change was due to pretty much an epiphony. I was having trouble deciding whether or not kush was genuinely giving up because the evidence was against him. It threw me way off his last game as scum. He did not, at all, even when considered suspicious by thrawn, act in that manner. I finally realized he must have been mafia trying to pity his way out since he his desire to win is strong. So you had an epihony? yet later you state that Kush could flip town and that I may be scum leading town astray? that does not fit at all. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: About the aware of the situation post, it was simply a bit giving respect to kush. This makes no sense. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: And then the final part you address. You are misreading. I had 2 scumreads at that point (1-Z-Bo, 2 - SDM). I had to wait on announcing SDM (which I did after the lynch) as my second because his activity level was way different d1 of this game compared to last game although his posts had been good. His activity level has increased so I don't have concerns right now about him. And about reluctant to be scum by association. That is a stupid argument. My problem was with Z-Bo's retarded assocation by modwarning case which others had seen as rational. It is a stupid argument? you will have to do better than that. Because a.) it is not a stupid argument. And b.) I think you have trouble defending against it because it is damning. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: I do have a really good question for you though: Why do you want to vote me over Alsn? Because. I stated very clearly that I would vote for whoever did the most scum hunting. You then proceed to tunnell alsn like a maniac. Who also happens to be your direct lynch opponent. And alsn does not seem to want to do things which he believes are anti town to fulfil some arbitrary objective I set. But you do. Just like what I said about lurker lynches. If you give scum a goal in order to be safe. They will set out to meet this goal. I gave you both a 'goal'. you compromised and backtracked on what you previously had stated was anit town. (Tunnelling hard) Alsn did not nearly as much. On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote: Differences between us: 1) Contribution - I have provided multiple extensive cases while Alsn has had nilch. In other words, I have actually scumhunted. Alsn said all day 1 how people should make cases and bring others to light. Instead, he focuses on the exchange between me and Z-Bo, and comes to no conclusions. 2) Defense of kush - He actually defended kush, calling kush's sips "not damning". Instead of infering what people mean you should look at what they actually say. 3) Answering Questions - I have addressed all these questions up front. Alsn has managed to dodge many questions and accusations, especially the ones about his lack of scumhunting 4) Length of "Scum actions" - a great majority of your case is based only on day 1, with no mention of anything I have done day 2. Alsn has continued to do nothing. How long ago did you make up your mind that I was confirmed scum? Have you actually read through all my posts from n1, d2 and reevaluate your position? Do you feel my posting has more scum motivation than Alsn's? That is probably the most important question. To be honest I feel like you are both scummy. And regardless of your flip I will totally look at Alsn later. But I was convinced that you were scummy first. And I feel that the case on you is far more substantial. | ||
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