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On August 24 2012 15:41 Dandel Ion wrote:
There are no Vigis though?
According to OP, it's just cop + JK that are possible.
Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him.
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Okay, I'm going to go to bed for now. When I wake up, I'll make a decision on what to do with Kush, then push a real case based on the posts in the thread.
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Just woke up, checking thread.
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Alright, finished reading through this. There are two things that jump out to me as scummy.
1) Lvdr
He goes into the thread, asks questions to generate discussion, accuses someone of fluff, and then leaves after FoSing the fluffy poster (mkfuba) and the obvious lynch (kush). This behavior is inconsistent: why push so hard for scumhunting and activity, but then disappear (and leave himself plenty of outs) once the shooting starts? Answer: because, if he is scum, this is exactly what he wants to do: stir up discussion, and then be the second or third person to hop on a mislynch wagon.
On top of that, I know what he's capable of in terms of scumhunting and making votes based on reasoned cases. So far, he hasn't lived up to that. Because of both reasons,
FoS Lvdr
2) Kush
His JK claim doesn't add up. There's no breadcrumb involved at all. There are now two possibilities:
a) He's JK and he honestly is scared that town is going to mislynch him. In this case, why claim so quickly, instead of dropping a breadcrumb with that post and then claiming later?
b) He's scum who knows he's going to get lynched anyhow, and is trying to bait the real JK into counter-claiming to at least take down a blue with him.
As far as I'm concerned, option b) is more likely, so If you are the real JK please do not counter-claim. We had a similar blatant fakeclaim in XXII, and there the real doctor didn't counter-claim and eventually used the fakeclaim to figure out the other 2 scum.
Furthermore, in addition to the likely fakeclaim, Kush hasn't used his posts to make a single case against anyone, in spite of people repeatedly asking him to do that. That's icing on the cake.
## Vote KushM4sta
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I see the viewcount increasing on the sidebar but the post count staying the same. I know you guys are lurking this thread. Come out and post.
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On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense.
@kush
If you are town, stop the current path you're going down. You've crossed over from overly-defensive into anti-town defensive play. If you're town, PM marv and get some help. I'm not voting for you yet, and I bet others aren't going to vote for you just yet either. You can pull yourself out of this hole you've dug, but you need to change your methods. Ask marv about any of the things you've done that we've jumped down your throat for and find out why we reacted that way.
What's your top scumread then?
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On August 25 2012 02:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 01:43 mkfuba07 wrote:
I'll be honest here and say that I'm actually inclined to believe kush. His play has been consistently bad, while I feel a newbie scum would have been far more variant. He would also have another person to discuss his play with, instead of having to hear from us how poorly he's been playing. He seems more 'alone' than a scum would be, if that makes sense. That actually is a decent point. But I'm not so sure that him being "alone" is necessarily a town tell either, the way his case was going for the most part whould most likely discourage scum-partners to defend him too much - it's even more probable that he is subtly bussing him, rather than defending. But this is all pretty WIFOM. As it stands, your point, while a good one, looks like a straight-up null-tell to me. But I understand if you see it as a town-tell.. I also think that kush was playing "bad town" rather than scum for the most part. But I will reserve judgement on him, no matter which way, until he explains why he was claiming JK there.I really don't get it, and as I said, it's not very believable imo.
First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
Furthermore, I don't get why on one hand you understand how mkfuba can see the claim as a town-tell but on the other hand act completely confused about kush.
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On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes. So on that point, who do you think is scum and why? Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post. Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it?
How can you ignore the JK claim? Either way, it's a play of some sort, and the most significant thing to happen in the thread so far.
Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower?
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On August 25 2012 02:26 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:21 Shady Sands wrote:First off, reserving judgment on Kush is bad. Lengthening the amount of time we talk about Kush is going to shorten the amount of time we have to talk about more substantial cases like Lvdr.
You would rather the town ignore kush and instead talk about lvdr yet you voted for kush and put a FOS on lvdr? Could you clarify what you meant by "more substantial?" And yeah I'm still looking at your case against lvdr, going through his filter now.
I'll reiterate:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense?
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On August 25 2012 02:37 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:On August 25 2012 02:06 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 24 2012 17:54 kushm4sta wrote:
Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. For now I'm going to ignore the jailkeeper claim, because it fits the idea of you being town and pissed that everyone is jumping all over you and you don't know what to do and are claiming JK from desperation. It also fits your agenda if you are mafia and trying to scare people into not voting for you. Shady thinks that the 2nd option is more likely I don't have a reason to believe one or the other. You're gonna have to show that you're town by giving some reads with well explained thought processes. So on that point, who do you think is scum and why? Shady, you put an FOS on lvdr so that topic's gonna be my next post. Also WeeTee, I asked you for your read on lvdr because I think it's relevant to your post about Alsn. This is the 4th time I've asked you for that read and you've posted in the thread 4 times since I originally asked for it. Can you please provide it? How can you ignore the JK claim? Either way, it's a play of some sort, and the most significant thing to happen in the thread so far. Yeah it is the most interesting thing said so far but I it matches both positions taken against him in this thread. You yourself pointed out the town/scum reasons for him to claim JK but I disagree that the JK claim is more likely to be either a town/scum motivation. Of course a scum player might fake roleclaim but some people including myself can see it as him just playing poorly. I'm ignoring it for now because it doesn't tip me off in any direction more than the other. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:24 Shady Sands wrote:Also, I don't get why you still want to offer Kush an out in terms of having him build cases. We asked him to build cases pages and pages ago, and he didn't. Why would he start now when his towncred is even lower? Are you really saying that we shouldn't allow him the opportunity to make cases? The best thing an accused player could do is to show that they are scumhunting.
Sorry, I was just a little peeved that we offered Kush two chances to shape up his posting and he hasn't taken either of them.
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On August 25 2012 02:53 mkfuba07 wrote:
EBWOP: Add to the end "Until I see that, I'm not commenting on kush anymore."
Duly noted.
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On August 25 2012 04:21 Lvdr wrote:Everyone has to sleep you know. I can't patrol the thread 24/7. That being said, I have some reads to provide: @Kush I think the JK claim sounds very honest to me and it fits perfectly with the bad-townie' vibe. Show nested quote +So everyone wants to lynch me because I didn't share my thoughts about if lurkers are really bad or just kind of bad? Show nested quote +I don't like the leadership role you took in the beginning and I think it reeks of mafia. Show nested quote +Wow guys everyone wants to kill me because I'm annoying or something and everyone hates me?? Reading this thread makes me want to cry. Honestly I will try harder but if you kill me let me just say that would be a huge mistake beacuse I am no ordinary townsperson. I am the jailkeeper so yeah you really shouldn't kill me. These are only a few selections from kush's filter. Overall it reads as someone who hasn't played this style of mafia before. The suspicion of leadership is understandable, but poor play. The JK claim falls in to the same category: understandable based on the clear desperation in kush's posting, but fundamentally the bad play of a newbie that is struggling. Therefore: 1. I don't think Kush should be a D1 lynch target. 2. Kush is not a confirmed townie and should still be 'watched'. @shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie. ##FOS Shady
What happened to your other FoS suspects?
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On August 25 2012 04:41 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read.
Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Actually, my FoS on Lvdr came hours before Lvdr launched his FoS on me. By your logic, Lvdr should be the one guilty of turning the focus to others.
And your jk save point is moot if scum don't even hit the person you profess to save. And that's assuming you are JK, which at this point I don't think so.
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Weetee, Spaghetticus, Alsn--what are your reads?
Brief recap for you guys if you're just coming into the thread/just waking up:
1) Kush roleclaimed jailkeeper
2) Dandel disbelieved JK roleclaim and accused Kush
3) I didn't believe the roleclaim and voted Kush; also built case/FoS'd Lvdr
4) Lvdr drew a null read on Kush and FoS'd me for voting Kush
5) Mkfuba followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
6) Dandel said null tell on Kush
7) Thrawn followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
8) Dandel followed up on Lvdr and FoS'd him
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On August 25 2012 08:36 Alsn wrote:So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing. With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter. Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following: + Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him. At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why. The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold. Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me. The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though! Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a: FoS Shady SandsThis is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either.
You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again.
Again, my PoV on Kush is that
1) His post quality is so poor that spending an excessive amount of time analyzing he's guilty or not will be counterproductive.
2) His roleclaim does not sound like a confused townie to me--it sounds like a scum looking to bait a counter-claim.
3) We shouldn't necessarily give him the benefit of the doubt just because he sounds like a bad townie.
Hence those 3 points combined = lynch.
As for Lvdr, my view of him has gotten much scummier since my last FoS. Reasons in the next post.
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On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else.
I'm going to start with this post by Lvdr as to why we should lynch him after we lynch Kush.
Lvdr is saying that he did a town read on me and FoS'd mkfuba to "spark discussion". He didn't actually mean it--or at least, he didn't mean it as strongly as he made the town think.
Basically, he lied. One thing that I feel even more strongly about than lynching lurkers is lynching liars. That's strike one against Lvdr here.
Strike two--
He dumps accusations everywhere. On me, on mkfuba, on kush--and then lifts them as quickly as he dumps them. Pointing fingers everywhere on minimal evidence is usually a scumtell. Scum want to make town spend more time defending itself than hunting scum.
Strike three--
This is what I don't get from Lvdr. He accuses mkfuba and kush weakly, leaves the thread, then comes back and calls townie on them, saying that his earlier reads were to spark discussion bullshit. Nothing mkfuba has done in the intervening 20 hours justifies this backtracking from his earlier FoS, much less Kush. Instead, Lvdr just implicitly asserts it.
Why is this wierd? Because any player who was basing his reads off evidence would follow up on the FoS, see that mkfuba hasn't done anything that screams pro-town. And I'm still not sure how Lvdr could just wholly dismiss his earlier FoS on kush on any reasonable basis when the only evidence Kush has provided is an extremely weak JK claim. Basically, when you look at how rapidly Lvdr shifts his accusations around, it almost looks like he's playing with prior knowledge of who is town. This is the clearest and biggest scumtell in the book. Even if you buy that on Kush, how could he just dump the FoS he's given with the weak excuse that he was trying to spark discussion, without even discussing what happened to his targets that made him drop the FoS?
Because of the three arguments above, I'm going to levy a strong FoS Lvdr. If it's clear Kush won't be getting lynched today, I'd also be fine with a lynch on Lvdr as well.
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Also: Weetee where are you?
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Going to wait for Weetee to make a response before going either way on him. Though I agree, his recent behavior is suspicious.
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On August 25 2012 12:32 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 12:13 Shady Sands wrote:You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again. I would just like to point out that this statement is incorrect. The only suspicion I have directed your way earlier than my FoS just a few hours ago was agreeing that Spaghetticus' arguments against you had some merit, but that I didn't find them enough to suspect you of anything sinister. Lots of information posted in a very short interval now, will read and see if I have anything to comment on.
Sorry, I messed up there.
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EPT
