EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXIV - Page 17
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On August 16 2012 19:32 Shady Sands wrote: Okay, I just posted and I immediately saw Ochrow and Thrawn both trying to get a train on Archrun going (both posting within 30 minutes of each other.) This just reconfirms my theory: Ochrow and Thrawn are, at the very least, working together, and given how Thrawn's been so WIFOMy and sheepy for the game, I'd reckon they are not masons but scum. Just to show you how absurd of an argument this is, I'd like to point something out. You said that you saw both ochrow and I, within 30 minutes of each other were "trying to get a train on archrun going." Well, you and Archrun both voted against me within 3 minutes. If I use the reasoning you used to link me with ochrow as both scum, I must also link you with Archrun as scum. Really shady, your arguments against me have been quite a stretch, and over and over you have ignored my responses to your accusations. I do not think that if you are thoroughly reading my posts that you would still have the belief that I am scum. I will go over our conversation and try to figure out if I have been unclear in my responses to you, and I urge you to go through the conversation to see if you might have missed out on what I was trying to say. If we can't figure this out, then my only options are to think that you are scum and trying to set me up, or that you are town and making weak reads and terrible arguments. I think it is the former so I am going to vote for you. If it is the latter, I won't feel TOO bad about lynching a town player who makes bad arguments. Whatever happened to your campaign to get everyone posting their previous game filters? Based on what you have done since demanding filters from everyone, I don't see a pro-town motive for your request. Your reasoning in asking for them was that having filters can be very useful in getting reads on people's posts that are made in specific circumstances, such as what a player usually acts like when accused of being scum. After asking for everyone's filters, you haven't even brought the subject back up. What was the point of asking in the first place if you are not going to follow through with analysis? If you wanted to view the filters for your own sole benefit, it would have been way easier for you to just find the filters yourself. If you wanted the group to view the filters so that the town can make better reads, then why haven't you provided any analysis of a player's posting within this game to their posting within previous games? I can't figure out why you asked from them in the first place, which leads me to the conclusion that your filter requests were fluff. ##Vote Shady Sands | ||
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Jhuyt
Sweden365 Posts
Looking through Och's posts about Arch I can't say that they make much sense, he just goes straight after Arch when he hadn't posted anything suspicious in my book. I can only see two reasons for him to do it. 1. He really thinks that Arch is scum for reasons that I can not grasp. If this is true I don't Och is a townie and Thrawn is scum. The reason I think this makes Thrawn scum is because he would have just saw a guy going after another and then he followed suit, like scum usually do in my experience. This is however very unlikely in my opinion, because why wouldn't he go after me who already have suspisions on me? for this reason, I don't think that Och is townie and Thrawn is scum 2. They are both scum and they decided to single out a guy This makes sense as to why they would both go on Arch when no one else is doing it, they tried both to be convincing to get as many people as possible with them and lynch Arch. This still leaves the question why they didn't go after me instead Arch with suspicions already on me. While this might not be the strongest of evidence I do think that it's very likely that Thrawn is scum and therefore I will FoS him. ##FoS thrawn2112 | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
Your Harry: On August 16 2012 11:47 YourHarry wrote: If I am scum and knew that they were green, you could accept my sudden change in my point of view regarding Solar's alignment. Would scum Harry decide to compromise what seems to be a semi-promising mislynch in Solar (assuming Solar is not Harry's scum partner) to risk being suspected, by trying to protect who scum Harry thought was a mason? Then continue to sacrifice being suspicious by not revealing his initial read even despite continuous pressure, until it became obvious that Harry was wrong about his mason reads? Or is this more likely the course of action from a town Harry? This defense of your day 1 posting behaviour is WIFOM and incredibly difficult to make sense of. I don't know if it is your logic that I have a problem with or the way you are explaining yourself, but I am far from satisfied with this explanation. You were convinced enough to vote for solar sail. And then based on a lacklustre interpretation of GK's post, changed your mind completely. Aside from the fact that I do not see from that solitary post that GK is either mason or scum as you do, your posting seems to be based entirely on a mind blowingly large assumption. What I further find suspicious with you is the MARKED DIFFERENCE in your posting as soon as you were found to be suspicious. And that you resorted almost entirely to WIFOM in your defense. The Part of your story that bothers me the most is this. You were 'convinced' solarsail was scum. Then after one innocuous post from GK. View your number one scum read and GK as masoned. To change your mind this drastically that quickly and to leap to the assumption of a mason pair rather than scum without question is very strange. There are several more natural assumptions to make in that situation especially when you were 'convinced' Solar was scum: -Goodkarma simply believed Solar was bad town. This does not rule out solar as scum, and is by far the most likely scenario. -Goodkarma was defending her scum buddy. I do not believe this to be the case but I find this to be a far more likely assumption when the person she was 'defending' was clear scum in your mind. (you use WIFOM to eliminate this) -Goodkarma and solar are masoned. a huge assumption based on the content of GK's post. The only way this scenario jumps out at you as the immediate answer is if YOU KNEW BOTH SOLAR AND GOODKARMA'S ALIGNMENT. The slip is that you behaved in a way that is natural for someone whom knows these players alignments. And have attempted to explain away the more natural assumptions that someone in the dark would take with WIFOM. You even admit that your 'stated' reasoning behind the entire fiasco is WIFOM and barely believe it yourself. On August 16 2012 13:47 YourHarry wrote: actually, upon re-evaluation, I can accept the possibility that GK was indeed not sure about Solar's alignment but was indeed worried that we may tunnel on a player that he somehow thought was a town. Still, the alternative is also possible. It could have been a scum slip that GK is now fabricating the explanations for. Either way, since this is WIFOM, I want to partially retract my case against GK. and yet you were so sure and seemed incredulous when questioned. Your day one posting has been ridiculous, you have flip flopped your vote around, Defended your self with WIFOM, encouraged others to confrim you as town to your doubters, been incredibly wishy-washy and your explanation is a stretch at best, and a scumslip at worst. I will continue to watch you closely. In order to avoid an incredible wall of text I think I will just post this and then continue on reading the thread. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
ShadySands (2): SolarSail, thrawn2112, thrawn2112 (2): ShadySands, Archrun, goodkarma (1): YourHarry, Jhuyt (1): goodkarma, Archrun (1): Ochrow, Not voted yet: DarthPunk, Jhuyt, Stutters695, mkfuba07, Golbat, Z-Boson + Show Spoiler [Full version] + Vote count (full version with unvotes): ShadySands (2): SolarSail, thrawn2112, SolarSail (0): thrawn2112 (2): goodkarma (1): YourHarry, Jhuyt (1): goodkarma, Archrun (1): Ochrow, thrawn2112 currently set to be lynched. Just under 8.5 hours until the deadline! As a reminder, use correct formatting for your votes/unvotes if you want them to count. ##Vote, ##Unvote. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:00 thrawn2112 wrote: Just to show you how absurd of an argument this is, I'd like to point something out. You said that you saw both ochrow and I, within 30 minutes of each other were "trying to get a train on archrun going." Well, you and Archrun both voted against me within 3 minutes. If I use the reasoning you used to link me with ochrow as both scum, I must also link you with Archrun as scum. That wasn't the only piece of evidence linking Thrawn to Ochrow. It started when he basically quoted Och's post word for word as your entire justification for starting the FoS on Archrun, and then defended Och from Z-Boson on Och's behalf. The back-to-back posts were just the icing on the cake. Really shady, your arguments against me have been quite a stretch, and over and over you have ignored my responses to your accusations. I do not think that if you are thoroughly reading my posts that you would still have the belief that I am scum. I will go over our conversation and try to figure out if I have been unclear in my responses to you, and I urge you to go through the conversation to see if you might have missed out on what I was trying to say. If we can't figure this out, then my only options are to think that you are scum and trying to set me up, or that you are town and making weak reads and terrible arguments. I think it is the former so I am going to vote for you. If it is the latter, I won't feel TOO bad about lynching a town player who makes bad arguments. Generally, threatening someone with a counter-lynch unless they acquiesce to one's defense is a clear scumtell. That being said, I think I've more than covered any defenses Thrawn's offered. The most coherent defenses he offered was simply copy-pasting what he wrote on Archrun again and rehashing your paragraph on Solar. Again, with the Archrun paragraph, there were a whole bunch of other posters such as YH and Solar and JHuyt which you could have gone after, but which he didn't, and regarding Solar, he never again mentioned his accusations against him after responding to them just once (just like his "response" to Golbat). Pulling up out of the details for a second, the bigger question is why, after the whole Solar/YH/me cases, would he feel that the best way to secure a D1 lynch would be to find lurkers who haven't posted content yet? There were three giant cases floating around that he simply discounted, instead choosing to focus on one case by Ochrow as the entire justification for his initial FoS on Archrun. Of course, he covered his ass with additional justifications on Archrun after people called you out on it, but it still doesn't mean you can hide the fact that you FoS'd Archrun with 3 sentences of justification. But again, this is not our only charge against him. When all of Thrawn's behavior is taken together, this is what it looks like: 1) Lots of soft-defenses of multiple players through the first half of D1 2) Jumping on the Archrun train with poor justification 3) Chainsawing a neutral player (Z-Boson) for attacking the player who you used to justify the Archrun FoS (Ochrow) 4) Continuing to FoS Archrun even after he posted content, sheeping Ochrow the same player who you were defending against Z-Boson 5) Coordinating *all* your reads with Ochrow (including the ones on YH and Solar, the two other contentious players in the game) 6) Threatening to OMGUS lynch me if I don't reread your defense and reconsider my accusations against you 7) OMGUS voting me anyhow Each of these points, alone, would already constitute anti-town behavior; taken together, they are a clear scumtell. So then Thrawn decides to shift the argument to the filters. Whatever happened to your campaign to get everyone posting their previous game filters? Based on what you have done since demanding filters from everyone, I don't see a pro-town motive for your request. Your reasoning in asking for them was that having filters can be very useful in getting reads on people's posts that are made in specific circumstances, such as what a player usually acts like when accused of being scum. After asking for everyone's filters, you haven't even brought the subject back up. What was the point of asking in the first place if you are not going to follow through with analysis? If you wanted to view the filters for your own sole benefit, it would have been way easier for you to just find the filters yourself. If you wanted the group to view the filters so that the town can make better reads, then why haven't you provided any analysis of a player's posting within this game to their posting within previous games? I can't figure out why you asked from them in the first place, which leads me to the conclusion that your filter requests were fluff. ##Vote Shady Sands Someone asked me about the filters earlier, and this is how I responded: I find filters a good way to figure out how people react to the stress of either being rightfully or wrongfully accused. For example, I tend to look at how someone responds when they're scum and they're being pressured, to then figure out better and more efficient ways to tunnel them and trap them. I think that every townie needs to have this sort of information on all other townies, in order to make this thread as stressful and difficult a place for scum to post as possible. The filters aren't there for people to quote and make cases out of. The filters are there so that every townie can see how other townies react to rolling red or green in any given situation, so that all townies are on a level playing field when it comes to finding the right pressure points to dismantle and tunnel someone else to a lynch. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Notice that his original case on Archrun has completely gone out the window. His justification on Arch, if we recall, was built on Arch being a non-contributing lurker. Now he thinks that the likeliest scum is me, someone who is pretty much as far from being a lurker as one can get... just because he thinks I am wrongly accusing him. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
In response to shady's latest big post: I feel like I am posting the same things over and over again in response to the same accusations. Is there anyone other than shady or archrun that want me to defend myself? I'm going to bed....I've stayed up till 11am. I'm setting my alarm clock to go off in a few hours so I should be back in time to talk about things before the votes are due. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
On August 16 2012 19:42 Shady Sands wrote: I am going to say this again very clearly: ## Vote Thrawn2112, ## FoS Ochrow Everyone just do it. Yeah shady. Any Town Cred you had just went flying out the window. To be honest I am having trouble following the narrative of the thread right now (perhaps I am just tired.) but this is a very anti-town post. Your case on thrawn2112 was OK. But attempting to stifle any further discussion and demanding everyone to sheep your reads (which is ironic because this is one of the things you are accusing these people of doing.) Is just flat out ridiculous. I want some clarity on what your case is. But the crux of the matter is this correct? On August 16 2012 20:07 Shady Sands wrote: But the issue with Archrun is you didn't compare him at all to the other lurkers. Nope. You just went ahead and joined in on Ochrow's accusation of Archrun without even offering any of your own analysis to back it up. Who were those other 3 people who had posted 4 times or less? Can you tell me who you checked? And of course you can't defend yourself from the blatant double-teaming you and Ochrow are doing. Anyone who has been in the thread in the past day can tell. You may have already clarified your case and I have not yet got to it. If so could you just make a brief summary of your case. | ||
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Solarsail
United Kingdom538 Posts
There's essentially no way to verify the truth of this statement if only him and Solar can attest to it. I want to hear a clearer read between Solar and JHuyt, specifically why Solar believes JHuyt to be innocent and not worth a lurker lynch. --JHuyt: Still haven't responded, so my original case on him still stands. Strong FoS, and if he continues to lurk I may consider changing my vote to him to guarantee a no-lynch. Right now though, my top lynch target is Thrawn. From the first massively WIFOM Serial Killer post, to the WIFOM on Policy, YH, and Solarsail, to his soft defense of Ochrow against Z-Boson--all of this smells extremely scummy. Scum have to look like they're active, scum have to stay alive, and scum have to help each other. Thrawn's posting behavior fits all three motives to a T. Lynch Thrawn. Thrawn just said it. Pony thread. I'm not going to elaborate because they are far, far outside the context of this thread save that they happened. I don't believe Jhuyt is innocent. I just don't have enough reason to put together a case based on his lack of posting so far. To whatever extent you choose to interpret he was defending me, I agree that is suspicious. I do concede that the effect of my earlier posting was causing thread derailment and was not perhaps the intended effect, but it did generate this current discussion which contains specific positions and evidence from a number of people that will be very useful in future so I wouldn't agree it was all bad. -- I believe I already unvoted Shady but looks like it didn't count so: ##Unvote That implies nothing about my current opinion of Shady which will be in my next post shortly. | ||
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Solarsail
United Kingdom538 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 17 2012 01:05 DarthPunk wrote: still trawling through the thread. It seems to be a lot more difficult to read than XXII. Yeah shady. Any Town Cred you had just went flying out the window. To be honest I am having trouble following the narrative of the thread right now (perhaps I am just tired.) but this is a very anti-town post. Your case on thrawn2112 was OK. But attempting to stifle any further discussion and demanding everyone to sheep your reads (which is ironic because this is one of the things you are accusing these people of doing.) Is just flat out ridiculous. I want some clarity on what your case is. But the crux of the matter is this correct? You may have already clarified your case and I have not yet got to it. If so could you just make a brief summary of your case. Here's the summary of the Thrawn case: 1) Lots of soft-defenses of multiple players through the first half of D1 2) Jumping on the Archrun train with poor justification ("non-contributing lurker") 3) Chainsawing a neutral player (Z-Boson) for attacking the player who he used to justify the Archrun FoS (Ochrow) 4) Continuing to FoS Archrun even after he posted content, sheeping Ochrow, the same player who he was defending against Z-Boson 5) Coordinating *all* his reads with Ochrow (including the ones on YH and Solar, the two other contentious players in the game) 6) Threatening to OMGUS lynch me if I don't reread his defense and reconsider my accusations against him (based off the exact opposite justifications that he used to accuse Archrun) 7) OMGUS voting me anyhow Also, I was saying that I wanted town to lynch Thrawn. In no way should you interpret my post as telling people to stop thinking for themselves and just follow me. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Also, GoodKarma, where's your read on the whole discussion about Thrawn? You posted about my call to lynch, and then disappeared. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
I have been reading through Thrawn2112's filter. And something jumped out at me. thrawn2112 Thrawn throws a FOS on YH. On August 15 2012 20:54 thrawn2112 wrote: I also put a FoS on yourharry. It was this post that most confused me out of all of harry's. After re-reading this thread, the 'right ball park' comment immediately caused me to start suspecting harry. It just doesnt seem like something somebody who is town would want to say. It looks like you are trying hint at something without ever saying it, but wouldn't a town player assume that any hints they drop intended for town players might also be picked up on by scum? What ball park are we talking about and why did you say mkfuba's question was a good question? These posts struck me as a little strange. YH is showing an eagerness, in fact the most eagerness out of anyone, to push a conclusion towards whatever reads (of solar and myself) have been presented, reads which so far people have found weak and/or unsubstantiated. Thrawn2112 Sheeps Shady and I on YH after the momentum against him had well and truly begun. But note the wording and lack of content or a clear statement in his conclusion. Incredibly wishy washy and adds nothing to the discussion. His very next post On August 16 2012 05:27 thrawn2112 wrote: Concerning the YH topic: 3 possibilities immediately come to mind: One, that YH is being honest about him thinking that solar and gk are masons. That will explain basically all of his scummy sounding posting earlier in the game. Two, that he and solar are masons. This would explain his strong conviction that solar is town, and could also explain why he posted like he had information to hide. Three, YH and solar, or maybe just YH is scum. This would also account for the cryptic way he was posting. The only part that I'm having trouble with, is that 4 minutes after voting for me for being suspicious of shady, he unvoted me and changed his vote to solar. 21 minutes later is when according to him, he came up with his 'solar as mason' theory and unvoted again. So if YH is scum and solar is scum, why would YH ever vote for solar in the first place? It could be a sneaky manipulation but i doubt that is the case. This makes me believe that no, YH and solar cannot BOTH be scum. YH's quick changing of votes is what I'm currently looking at to see if I can make any reads as far as YH is concerned. At this point I think YH's alliance hinges on whether or not you believe his story about suspecting solar and gk of being masons. At one point in the game I was willing to indulge the thought that YH and solar were masons based off a weak read I was making, (the extra information YH was hinting at) so it is easy for me to believe that YH did the same. YH, for now I believe your story and do not think either you or solar are scum. mkfuba07, after reading my post do you agree with my claim that YH is town? If not, why not? Immediately after his FoS on your harry. He comes up with several WIFOM scenarios to potentially explain YH's behaviour and then reaches the conclusion that not only is your harry no longer suspicious. He is town. What are these conclusions based off? ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING. He then proceeds to immediately push his town read of Your Harry. And when I call him on it? He explains that confirming town is pro-town behaviour. And your harry backs him. Bear in mind there is absolutely nothing in his post which explain his sudden change of heart. From FoS to pushing him as 'confirmed town' off the back of nothing whatsoever, directed at someone who had just put a FoS on Your Harry. This is not the same as confirming a townie and yet this is what it was represented as. Thrawn2112 actively tried to confirm Your Harry's Townieness. Which in the context of the thread and his FoSto town read is incredibly suspicious. On August 16 2012 11:07 DarthPunk wrote: Re-reading the thread something Thrawn stated seemed incredibly suspicious. Why are you actively trying to prove that someone is a town? rather than find the scum? what possible town motivation is behind this? It seems to me like you are trying to convince the one person at that time whom had still expressed doubts on Your harry's alignment to believe that he was town and not scum. This is not pro-town activity. Spending time trying to convince a particular person of a players green status day one is scum behaviour. On August 16 2012 11:31 thrawn2112 wrote: @darthpunk Also it seems to me that confirming somebody is town isn't a waste of time, it will give you new information yo0D So my case on you is ill have a narrower list of who potential scum could be. While it isn't the most important part of the game it isn't useless like you have described. He says that confirming a town whom he had just backflipped off for no reason is not a waste of time. Your Harry chips in that establishing himself as town is 'actually advantageous'. On August 16 2012 13:00 YourHarry wrote: Establishing someone as confirmed townie is actually very advantageous for town. Masons, for example, are nothing but confirmed townies to each other and can be very powerful, especially in the late game. It is also another reason why scums prefer to NK confirmed townies. But, of course, it is difficult to establish to 100% confirm townies, just like it is difficult to establish confirmed scums. So I agree that, in the beginning of the game, we should focus more on establishing scum read. But if obvious town read sticks out, we should share it with others. It is scum motivation to do the opposite - to limit as many town reads as possible. There was no town motivation for establishing Your Harry as town. But there was a scum motivation for protecting one of their own and establishing a scum as town. There was no explanation for Thrawn2112's backflip from FoS to dead set town read in the space of one post. Vote## Thrawn2112 FoS Your Harry | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 17 2012 01:38 DarthPunk wrote: Vote## Thrawn2112 FoS Your Harry Please format your votes correctly or THEY WILL NOT COUNT. Keirathi even posted about it on this page >.< | ||
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Solarsail
United Kingdom538 Posts
I was never completely satisfied by his explanation of jumping on me second post to stimulate discussion, nor persisting with it. The encouragement of baseless voting is another strike there for me. None of his suspicions have had sufficient evidence for On Thrawn: If Mafia he is playing a clever game presenting very well reasoned arguments with evidence, quite in contrast to Shady. I quite understand his previous position on Archrun as well, lynching semi-lurkers who have not contributed to discussion with their posting. But Archrun has now posted enough so that lynching him on that basis is unacceptable. However Thrawn and Shady are getting at each other, which is very interesting. I am satisfied with the defences Thrawn has posted of soft defending me and of being independent from Ochrow's weak argument when FoSing Archrun. People have yet to point out a damning flaw in his arguments. Here's the summary of the Thrawn case: 1) Lots of soft-defenses of multiple players through the first half of D1 2) Jumping on the Archrun train with poor justification ("non-contributing lurker") 3) Chainsawing a neutral player (Z-Boson) for attacking the player who he used to justify the Archrun FoS (Ochrow) 4) Continuing to FoS Archrun even after he posted content, sheeping Ochrow, the same player who he was defending against Z-Boson 5) Coordinating *all* his reads with Ochrow (including the ones on YH and Solar, the two other contentious players in the game) 6) Threatening to OMGUS lynch me if I don't reread his defense and reconsider my accusations against him (based off the exact opposite justifications that he used to accuse Archrun) 7) OMGUS voting me anyhow On the basis that Thrawn hasn't done much wrong, this post is unacceptable. 1), 2), 4), 5) have been adequately defending and for Shady to act like they have not been is not moving discussion forward. He should be attacking Thrawn's words and not his actions. [QUOTE]In addition to Thrawn, I'm open to a D1 lynch on Ochrow, or JHuyt if that's what it takes to defeat a no-lynch.[QUOTE] [QUOTE]Vote Thrawn2112, FoS Ochrow. Everyone just do it.[QUOTE] This is also a big mistake. Being happy about lynching someone with little evidence is not town behaviour. If he was still focused on a single target and proving it that would be great, but he needs to lay out a greater case for the other two than what he has. Particularly the Ochrow coordination case is very weak, the Archrun things look independent to me and the reaction to Z-boson's interpretation post was more informational, it needed to be corrected immediately so the thread didn't derail on a misunderstood syntax. ##Vote Shady Sands Can't shake the feeling that Thrawn has set Shady up as his own worst enemy and Shady is just playing very badly to fall in. DarthPunk is my strongest Town read this far and he is saying the opposite. But I have had so many problems with Shady this game, and while Thrawn is not off my radar I can't ignore this. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10847 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:00 thrawn2112 wrote: Whatever happened to your campaign to get everyone posting their previous game filters? Based on what you have done since demanding filters from everyone, I don't see a pro-town motive for your request. Your reasoning in asking for them was that having filters can be very useful in getting reads on people's posts that are made in specific circumstances, such as what a player usually acts like when accused of being scum. After asking for everyone's filters, you haven't even brought the subject back up. What was the point of asking in the first place if you are not going to follow through with analysis? If you wanted to view the filters for your own sole benefit, it would have been way easier for you to just find the filters yourself. If you wanted the group to view the filters so that the town can make better reads, then why haven't you provided any analysis of a player's posting within this game to their posting within previous games? I can't figure out why you asked from them in the first place, which leads me to the conclusion that your filter requests were fluff. ##Vote Shady Sands This is just... I don't even know. The most hard to read piece of Irony in the thread. If you have a reason to vote Shady why is half your post such garbage? I have made far better arguments against shady and I haven't even voted for him. This is not a case, nor a read, and is certainly not enough to be the none OMGUS part of the post in which you vote for shady. This does nothing to aid in the scumhunting that is occuring. This is Fluff. It is distracting us from being able to clearly read the cases for and against you. | ||
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Solarsail
United Kingdom538 Posts
That is very strong. I would like to see Thrawn defend that. Now that DP's argument is there in full with evidence, the line "mkfuba07, after reading my post do you agree with my claim that YH is town? If not, why not?" is really, really out of place. | ||
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