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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote: I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. hahahahahahaha okay | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 00:20 wherebugsgo wrote: Gotta love 8:30 vision appointments. For anyone who doesn't know, from my perspective Erandor and VE share two important traits: One, they both call me scum in every game without fail regardless of their own alignments. Two, they're both awful as town. Right now I lean toward Erandor being terrible, since I don't think as scum he'd stop being lazy long enough to form a coherent sentence. yeah but do you really think he's bad enough to mason you just to see if you would out a mason a second time? I have a hard time buying that. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 00:00 Erandorr wrote: strongandbig, your posts are completely worthless one liners. Right now, tell me what you think about what wbg did. Do you agree with him outing the masons? Why do you think he did it? Do you think he is rather town or scum? tbh i originally thought he was lying, ve hadn't masoned him, and he was trying to incite reactions. I have no fucking clue why bugs is doing what he's doing. It's extremely stupid if he did it with no plan in mind. I know he's not stupid, so I'm waiting to find out what the plan is or was. I think we should lynch him if he doesn't persuade us that outing the masons was a good idea, because if he doesn't convince us that he had a good reason my conclusion would be that his plan was "fuck with town so they can't get organized." It's also really weird that toad and that other guy are still arguing about whether or not masons should claim. It's irrelevant now and one of them is probably scum. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Plus it doesn't explain at all why he outed erandor as well. Plus unlike in bureaucracy, scum can double stack this game. So no I don't buy the given reason. If he doesn't have something better, then yes I think "to fuck with town" is the most likely option. Plus "establishing that he's given mafia a reason to wifom" can also help answer people on day three asking "why haven't scum shot you yet." | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Ace's Scum 101: get town to lynch people for being bad rather than for being scum. I mean, I may be bad but I'm not stupid. On August 04 2012 17:47 wherebugsgo wrote: also no, obviously I think all the other lynch candidates are inferior. Why should we resort to trusting a vig to shoot grush? How do we even know if we have a vig? This sort of stuff really pisses me off, because it delays the inevitable. On August 04 2012 09:00 wherebugsgo wrote: Your basic assumption that outing masons in this game is antitown is flawed. I already pointed that out when...oh, I dunno, I called you bad several times for thinking it. If you out masons then you pressure them. Zephirdd was 100% correct on why I did it (and if he's scum that was a pretty brilliant play by him). The goal is to distinguish the town masons from the scum masons via their handing of the pressure. Also it has the side effect of scaring mafia masons into potentially not using their roles if they fear they will instantly be outted and put in a small pool of players for scrutiny. Playing like Ace only works when you're Ace and always play like Ace. On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote: 1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless) Town wbg would realize that this logic is terrible. Town wbg wouldn't give multiple different explanations for outing masons on day 1 without discussing it with them and without participating with the town discussion of whether masons should claim. (for reference, those explanations were "because VE and I are good and this way medics might medic us", and "to pressure the masons") Town wbg wouldn't try to lead a lynch on a bad player just for being bad, without making a case, etc. This isn't town wbg. ##vote: wherebugsgo | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 19:56 wherebugsgo wrote: Number 1: I did not give multiple explanations for outting the masons. I gave one. I don't see how you asserting that I gave multiple explanations is an indication that I did. Yeah you did. First you said it was so mafia would have to wifom over whether to shoot you and VE, then you said it was to pressure VE. On August 04 2012 19:56 wherebugsgo wrote: Third, how is being a mason not being alignment indicative (a fucking fact of the setup) "terrible logic"? That's not the part that's wrong. The part that's wrong is "therefore outting a mason is rather worthless." On August 04 2012 19:56 wherebugsgo wrote: Fourth, there is absolutely something wrong with you if you think I am a better lynch than grush. Grush is playing to his LVI meta. If you don't care to read LVI, then you can continue being bad. Also, I'm not voting grush for being bad. He's going to be bad regardless of his alignment, but I've already pointed out how as town he doesn't actually troll this hard, unless he's somehow become even worse than he already was. Yeah so if you're going to claim you were able to determine grush's alignment based on his single first post you're going to have to convince me he doesn't troll as town. I don't think you're going to be able to convince me of that because he does. He might troll more as scum than he does as town, but the one post he'd made at the time you started trying to lynch him isn't enough to convince me he's "playing to his scum meta." On August 04 2012 20:36 wherebugsgo wrote: yo guys I can't play with Erandorr anymore, he's too fucking bad. Just lynch me. ##unvote ##vote wherebugsgo I'm not even kidding, this is a waste of my time. I know I have said that it's a priority for townies to establish their innocence d1 and all that. However, if you actually agree with him that I am scum then there is no way I will be relieved of suspicion at any point in this game. If I catch scum, you will say I bussed them because I am good at scum. If I don't catch scum, then I will be lynched for not catching scum. Just kill me now and get it over with so that we're all happier for it. Yeah well fuck you very much too. Seriously after how pissed you got at RoL for trolling bureaucracy mafia, and now you're trying to get us to think you're a self-voting pissed townie? I don't buy it. (also playing against wincon etcetera.) On August 04 2012 20:44 wherebugsgo wrote: in PMs. also, think about this: Erandor's entire case against me hinges on me publicly outting mafia masons (as a scum tactic.) If I were scum and I knew VE and Erandorr were town masons why wouldn't I just privately tell my team instead of posting to the thread? Erandorr's case has jack shit to do with why I think you're scum. jack shit. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
1. because VE is good enough to breadcrumb who he masons, and you publicly announcing it gives you cover to kill him without revealing that you're scum. (ie, if you just killed him we would look through his filter, find his breadcrumb, and kill you.) 2. For the same reason you want us to be talking about grush and killing him for his first post not being good: to leave town in a state of disorganized confusion. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote: Given how much you want to lynch me, then you should welcome the help. No matter what I do, you're going to call me scum. That's a given, because you're using the worst logic I've ever seen to call me scum, and Erandorr in particular won't stop tunneling me. Thus, given my reputation as a scum player (in particular) I will always be a lynch candidate. Is it playing against my wincondition? No, actually. If I'm always going to be a lynch candidate and if my lynch is going to take up all the discussion space then it's actually BENEFICIAL to town to kill me right here, right now. Why? Because then you can stop wasting time and For the record both grush and prplhz are 95% scum to me. - How do I "want to lynch you" so much? I don't want to lynch you if you're town, it's just that your play makes me think you're scum. - I assume when you say you're "always going to be a lynch candidate" then you mean in this game in particular, because you certainly aren't "always a lynch candidate" "because of your rep as a good scum player" in games of yours that I've observed. If so, then you have to recognize that you have brought it on yourself by your weird-ass scummy-ass play, and rather than get pissed about it you should be trying to persuade us that you're town. Given the way you posted the first 24-30 hours of this game that's quite a task. Also let me say this - I don't find your explanations of your reasons for outing the masons, especially VE, compe lling. I don't yosee what "pressure" you put VE under, unless you meant "do something weird/unexpected to VE and see if he blows his lid." Like, VE posted about you revealing him maybe once, when he said he was yelling at you in PMs. - And yeah, no I don't think "dying to free up discussion space" is a good idea for a townie, and I don't think you believe that either. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On May 07 2012 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote: I'll give you some examples: from my past games, the only times I have trolled for extended periods of time with no real change in play were when I was scum. All the other times, if I have ever trolled/brought attention to myself it was either a gambit or out of exasperation with the game. Since then I've realized that gambiting is to be used rarely and that it often doesn't work as town. Voting yourself, for example, is a stupid way to establish yourself as town because anyone can do it (any scum with balls will do it) and it doesn't reveal anything about your alignment. It doesn't further discussion; it in fact impedes it, and it doesn't help find scum; it goes against it. Examples: In LoTR I pretended to only be interested in the ring for the first 24 hours of the day. In the second half of the day I basically attacked anyone who unreasonably focused on me solely because of that. My target of the day was DrH, who ended up being mafia godfather (and I was shot n1). I was town. In Storm I was mafia and saw that if I was loud enough, and because town was not playing well, I could just scream and yell and troll all I wanted about players' misplays that I could get any lynch I wanted. In that game I would estimate over half my posts were either useless one liners or gifs/jokes/troll posts. Yet, my team managed to get 3 lynches straight on townies; what does that tell you? I was under a lot of attention the entire time as well, because my play was borderline suicidal. Town caught on after lynching my scumbuddy (and even early game because of my disruption I was suspected) That game taught me that playing in that manner may be good if you want to gather the sheep, but often they'll only be willing to go for other disruptive people. For the most part that means they'll kill the loudest townies for a few days before realizing the error in their ways. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 21:55 wherebugsgo wrote: How the flying fuck am I trolling? On May 07 2012 07:24 wherebugsgo wrote: I'll give you some examples: from my past games, the only times I have trolled for extended periods of time with no real change in play were when I was scum. All the other times, if I have ever trolled/brought attention to myself it was either a gambit or out of exasperation with the game. Since then I've realized that gambiting is to be used rarely and that it often doesn't work as town. Voting yourself, for example, is a stupid way to establish yourself as town because anyone can do it (any scum with balls will do it) and it doesn't reveal anything about your alignment. It doesn't further discussion; it in fact impedes it, and it doesn't help find scum; it goes against it. Examples: In LoTR I pretended to only be interested in the ring for the first 24 hours of the day. In the second half of the day I basically attacked anyone who unreasonably focused on me solely because of that. My target of the day was DrH, who ended up being mafia godfather (and I was shot n1). I was town. In Storm I was mafia and saw that if I was loud enough, and because town was not playing well, I could just scream and yell and troll all I wanted about players' misplays that I could get any lynch I wanted. In that game I would estimate over half my posts were either useless one liners or gifs/jokes/troll posts. Yet, my team managed to get 3 lynches straight on townies; what does that tell you? I was under a lot of attention the entire time as well, because my play was borderline suicidal. Town caught on after lynching my scumbuddy (and even early game because of my disruption I was suspected) That game taught me that playing in that manner may be good if you want to gather the sheep, but often they'll only be willing to go for other disruptive people. For the most part that means they'll kill the loudest townies for a few days before realizing the error in their ways. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Here's why I think wbg is scum: When he's town he explains things, doesn't gambit, and doesn't draw attention to himself for no reason with stunts. In this game, he hasn't explained himself in a satisfactory way - and the explanations he has given don't hold up whatsoever. His reasons for outing the masons don't hold up. If he wanted mafia to have to wifom before shooting him, there was really no reason he needed to claim mason; he could have just played super townie, which he is definitely capable of doing, and then called for medic protection. His claim to be "pressuring" ve by outing him doesn't match his thread behavior, where he didn't pressure ve at all or even make him post more than once or twice. And his claim to be "deterring potential scum masons from masoning people in the future" doesn't hold up either, unless everyone agrees to out more masons in the future; in order for this tactic to work he would have to persuade everyone that outing masons is good in general and he hasn't even tried to do that. Additionally, I would count this "instantly outing masons" thing as a gambit of the second order - and bugs has frequently said not to gambit as town. It's not in his town meta. Next, both with the outing of the masons and with his self-voting, public insults, and flame-war with erandorr, he's drawing attention to himself in a way that isn't consistent with his town play. Finally, there's the grush thing. Usually when town-wbg tries to lead a lynch, it's with reasons and explanation as well as the insults. This one had jack shit of that until he was pushed on it, and then when he was pushed on it the best he could come up with was more insults plus an example of one game where grush trolled. Yeah so that's why wbg is scum. Vote for him. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote: These aren't two different explanations. It's ONE explanation with THREE parts (one which you missed, btw.) It would be suspicious if I went back and said "no that's not what I meant, I meant THIS" because then I would be flip flopping. Having multiple reasons for something being good is simply an indication of it being...well, good. You can argue semantics but from a scumhunting perspective it only matters if your target changed his explanation. If the explanation hasn't changed then there's nothing wrong. There's no reason for bugs to have said "I did not give multiple explanations" if he actually had three different reasons. The only way I could possibly buy that is if he gave all these reasons at the same time instead of spreading them out over multiple posts in response to different pressures. On August 04 2012 21:14 wherebugsgo wrote: This is probably just you not understanding what I was saying because of my carelessness with the sentence. Possessing the role of mason in this game says nothing about your alignment. Therefore, if I out someone as a mason it doesn't tell anyone anything about whether they are town or mafia (therefore the act itself is worthless in terms of determining their alignment.) So this still ignores the same point as bugs ignored originally - the mason role has uses beyond giving information about the alignment of the person with the power. If you out someone as mason it clearly doesn't tell us anything about their alignment but it does change the way they can use their role, and if they're town it can hurt town. When bugs was masoned, for him to essentially go "the guy who masoned me could be scum, I'ma reveal them to town so I can find out" was the lazy way. If bugs was town I would think he would have some confidence in his own ability to read people who are masoned with him, and would realize that if he gets a town read on the person then it's advantageous to not reveal them as the mason. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 05 2012 00:55 Erandorr wrote: @ Strongandbig I would like your opinion. From a town POV, why would wbg call me scum or dumb if I mason him? He assumes a town Mason must be dumb to mason him, because he instantly outs them. He said later that outing town masons is also pro town, because it forces Scum to shoot suboptimally. And obviously because a town mason has nothing to fear from pressure. So there is absolutely no reason to call a town mason dumb for masoning him, unless he knows that his move fucks town masons over. lol I don't agree with this entirely. His thought process could be "Erandorr says he wants to remain secret; Erandorr masoned me after I just revealed the last guy who masoned me; therefore, either Eranorr is lying about wanting to remain secret (because he's scum and thinks he can gain town cred here) or he is stupid." Frankly I agree that you masoning him didn't make any sense. Tha | ||
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