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On July 18 2012 03:04 layabout wrote:bah Sandro town Kurumi scum. I must be over thinking things since none of you questioned mafia following a two line message of questionable intent when mafia can only have sent up to 3 messages that could have been as long as they liked and would have been their only method of communication. Are we ignoring the nuke and just killing Kurumi then?
lol Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:00 layabout wrote:
PSA: No talking to kurumi and spamming up the thread!
Yes, upon posting three times in the thread you of all people must be overthinking things.
Man are you town this game? If so shape the fuck up, you can play better than this. However my guy says you're not, since you're so damn lazy.
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On July 18 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: There is something very demoralising about being ignored and insulted.
If we are killing someone other than Kurumi it should be someone that is being actively disruptive. Town shouldn't do that but scum benefit from it. You all seem to be fine ignoring cheznu so i suggest Q-bert-Z or Blazinghand.
Go read before I insult you some more.
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On July 18 2012 04:44 austinmcc wrote:I have no name cache here, that's fine. But read this with an open mind. Seriously read point (1). Consider whether it makes sense. (1) Sandroba's role is way, way, way too powerfulNot a single person here knows how sandroba's power works. Mafia, town, 5th party, whatever. Nobody is curious? Nobody is thinking, jeez, in a game where mafia cannot communicate except through 2 messages per day cycle, 2 messages per night cycle, and there are NINE of them. A game where they might lynch each other, NK each other, use powers on each other. Nobody is going, holy balls, the ability to SEND FAKE MESSAGES is an incredibly, incredibly powerful role? Think about it. The way sandroba used it, he's a cop. You ask someone to do something, if they do, they must have assumed it was from a mafia higher-up. So if they obey, they're mafia, you got this game's equivalent of a red check. Moreover, you're a cop that cannot be affected by any kind of framing power. Normal cops can be balanced out by gfs, millers, frames. A red check from a normal cop may or may not indicate scum. Saying "Hey use these 3 phrases in your next post to identify yourself" CANNOT be balanced by any mechanic at all. If they obey a message they received, when they had no idea anyone other than mafia could send messages, they must be mafia. Name a single other explanation, because when kurumi tried to give one, it sounded dumb and everyone agreed it sounded dumb. Moreover, he's not just a cop. He can check people with that power, AND direct their actions. Not only does he know they're red when they follow orders, he can actively direct mafia action because messages are anonymous. He gets a red check AND gets to direct the actions of a mafia member, tell them who to go after, who to defend, etc. Oh man, austinmcc, that DOES sound pretty powerful now that I think about it. He's a supercop that can't get false checks in a game where mafia have limited communication?
(2) Sandroba has played scum IN a sleeper cell game in which a powerful role fakeclaim helped win the gameWell, surely he wouldn't claim such a powerful role, right? He'd wait to use it a few more times. I mean, checks AND mafia action disruption, you'd want to keep that secret. Unless, of course, you'd played in another game where a ridiculous check helped win you the game. You know, like, say, Sleeper Cell Mafia. The game where sandroba rolled mafia with Ace as cell leader and Ace claimed the following role: Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 02:28 Ace wrote: I'm an undercover Agent with 1 shot and get parts intercepted messages from the CL. So I have no more shots anyway and I'm pretty sure we're close to winning this especially seeing how panicked you are. If you are a townie you should be glad I chose correctly because if I missed I'd be automatically killed also. Something tells me you aren't though. Ace skated by after claiming this, with the only person who was suspicious of his claim being another cell member. In the postgame, there was a decent bit of discussion about how town should have questioned Ace's claim given that he could (1) intercept messages and (2) shoot. Sandroba's claimed power is basically on about that level, because he's a combination cop and...disruptor? There's no name for that other role as far as I know. It's basically a townie who gets to sit in mafia QT but isn't mafia.
(3) Sandroba showed balls as a sleeper agent in that same gameAce claimed to have shot GGQ N3. There was only one kill. Sandroba, as scum, claimed vet on D4 in order to account for the missing KP. So we KNOW he's got the balls to fakeclaim as scum in this style of game. We know that having those balls won him a game, as scum, in this style of game.
Maybe I'm being paranoid. But maybe that role is a little overpowered to be in a balanced game. Maybe sandroba can play ballsy as scum in this sort of game. Maybe, even if the role isn't overpowered, Sandroba should be smart enough not to out himself because he caught 1/9 of the mafia team with a role that friggin' powerful. Wouldn't you keep that to yourself and catch more? Wouldn't you catch more and actively disrupt mafia communication/actions?THAT is why I wanted Sandroba to claim. That is why I find him scummy. Get offa mah nuts, because if you actually think about his role, you should be questioning it too. Either scum have RIDICULOUSLY powerful roles to balance things out, or town simply cannot have a guy who ends up being an uncounterable cop PLUS can actively plant fake mafia communications.
Why the hell would mafia need powerful roles when sandro's power can only be considered a oneshot use?
The games setup is designed so that mafia cannot explicitly identify others (no communication to higher ups as it's designed in the OP). Thus , a town role that, if used correctly, PUNISHES mafia for doing so is in line with the setup.
You can't compare it with a full fledged cop because it would only work once. Sandro's not gonna catch a scum with it tomorrow, for example.
Lastly, why do mafia need powerful roles in a setup in which they comprise half of the playerbase? They could kill themselves multiple times and the setup would still be balanced.
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Also since I know you're not bad/neglectful as town, Austin; I come to the conclusion that you are mafia.
Your argument is poor and it only serves to shed doubt on sandro from a "what he did" perspective. You've stretched inordinately far to make your argument. You make it on the grounds of plausibility first (to make sandro as scum seem possible) whereas if the argument were as clear as you insinuate it to be, you'd have pushed sandro based on scum motivation.
Since you didn't choose that route I don't think your concern is something a townie would bring up.
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On July 18 2012 05:03 austinmcc wrote:Rastaban Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:54 rastaban wrote: But see someone has that role, Kurumi confirmed she received the PM. Mafia can't just PM whoever they want, they get it 1x a night to specific minions. So this powerful role has to exist OR he is scum bussing mafia. Either way we should kill the target (The nuke is doing that for us) and continue to evaluate him. Mafia will need to kill him if he is town, as he has incredible power. If he ends up living for a few nights then yeah lets go back to him and see if he needs lynched, but for now there is no reason to try and do anything about it.
Should he have claimed, I don't know, I think his argument that it makes mafia doubt all PMs is a legit reason to do so, more so when he is outing scum at the same time. Lets make mafia sort this out for now.
You seem to think Kurumi is actually mafia: Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 23:26 rastaban wrote: Don't you think though as town he would have blocked the one on RoL when he learned Kurumi was mafia? Why are you trusting Kurumi's confirmation of the PM if you think he's mafia? (he, right?) Bugs Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 04:54 wherebugsgo wrote: Why the hell would mafia need powerful roles when sandro's power can only be considered a oneshot use?
The games setup is designed so that mafia cannot explicitly identify others (no communication to higher ups as it's designed in the OP). Thus , a town role that, if used correctly, PUNISHES mafia for doing so is in line with the setup.
You can't compare it with a full fledged cop because it would only work once. Sandro's not gonna catch a scum with it tomorrow, for example.
Lastly, why do mafia need powerful roles in a setup in which they comprise half of the playerbase? They could kill themselves multiple times and the setup would still be balanced. Why is sandro's power a oneshot use? He never said it was. If you think it's one shot because mafia will now doubt all messages, then isn't this game broken? The ONLY communication mafia have is these messages, top to bottom. If messages can no longer be trusted, mafia basically has no communication. They've always got to worry whether it's a legit message or town checking them out, and they have to just...guess as to what anonymous source it came from? The ONLY reason Sandro can't catch someone with it tomorrow is because he claimed it after finding one single scummy player. Before he announced that, he could have caught every last scum with it. You're not looking at his power the right way, because you're looking at it only after he claimed. And even when known, it's still game-breaking.
You're not town.
This is not game breaking.
For anyone who is actually town and believes what Austin says, consider the following points:
1. Sandro's trick only works if you force a mafia to out themselves publicly.
2. Mafia can utilize commands that have absolutely nothing to do with public member identification.
3. A town player who has caught scum has the vested interest in outting that scum immediately in the case that he will die. In sandro's case this is immensely likely given that he is among the strongest scumhunters on the forum.
4. In accordance with the above 3 points the trick only works once.
Not to mention it takes a lot more skill than a cop check, and any smart scum would never out themselves. It #1 takes a stupid and careless scum and #2 it takes a skilled townie. Therefore the cop comparison sucks because the basic assumption of "every scum is dumb enough to believe and follow every anon message" utterly fails.
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VE why are you helping confirmed dead Kurumi destroy the thread?
What purpose does it serve you to talk to him?
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On July 18 2012 05:50 austinmcc wrote: We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up.
so you never learned in mafia 101 that role does not equal alignment?
For the third time, you're scum.
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yo sandro who do you want to get lynched?
The voting thread is full of random votes on people who have no chance of dying today. This is honestly pathetic.
Palmar, why is your vote on Kurumi? Gonzaw, your vote on Foolishness is a waste. Austin is scum. Marv's vote is a waste.
I seriously doubt you're all scum, but as of right now a great majority of you are not actually reading the game or, even for that matter, playing in it. Some of you aren't reading and yet you still post drivel to the thread. If you're town, shape it up. You should know why Kurumi is not getting any votes today, and you should be working to consolidate a lynch.
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On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:58 sandroba wrote:On July 18 2012 05:50 austinmcc wrote: We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up. This post in retarded as fuck I'm sorry. Why wouldn't I as town opt to cripple mafia's only source having a role capable of doing so or not. Why would I opt to give mafia certainty instead of doubt? The role itself already cripples mafia. You can plant false messages. You can direct their targets. It's not a choice between giving mafia certainty and giving mafia doubt. Here's the super important distinction. It's actually a choice between giving mafia certainty that they shouldn't have (they are certain any directions are coming from scumbuddies, when in fact they are being directed by a townie) vs. giving mafia doubt. Insert some philosophical line about the enemy you don't see being more dangerous than the enemy you do see. Why not fully claim as any alignment? You think you're going to get shot. Show nested quote +You realize that even if I'm mafia I'm fucking my own team by doing this, since if I have this power as a minion only one person on the mafia team knows that I'm mafia as well. Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up. Show nested quote +If you can explain me how I profit as mafia by doing what I did and how it is more likely for me to be mafia then town, you are free to keep yapping about your insane conspiracy theory. However if you insist on trying to force the situation into your own mold of reality I must conclude you have an agenda behind your posts. What's mafia's main advantage in this game? Large numbers. What's mafia's main disadvantage this game? Less information, can't confirm each other. BOTH of these lead to it being more likely mafia will kill each other. Accidentally, or on purpose (the cost of bussing a member of a 9-man team is less than the cost of bussing a member of a 3 or 6-man team). Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred.
On July 06 2012 09:28 Protactinium wrote:
Not 100% on this atm but currently the rule is they can't give absolute statements, just orders. i,e no 'players x y z are not mafia, get them killed,' just, 'harass player x.' If they are blatant about trying to give out teammates then they'll be censored. Given enough time executives might figure out ways to smuggle information past the censors but it won't be without risk. There may be other mechanics in place to interfere with such play if it is tried.
There are redundancy factors in place for communication once someone dies but they will be less than normal. In normal games the town wants to prioritize certain mafia to eliminate powers (especially in PYP games) or reduce kp. As eliminating mafia will not reduce kp here, the focus should be geared at disrupting communication by removing the executives.
You sound like butthurt scum.
##unvote
##vote Austinmcc
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fuck I meant to hit preview and not post.
On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 05:58 sandroba wrote:On July 18 2012 05:50 austinmcc wrote: We can. I don't want to. Syllo hasn't made up a ridiculous role (I know some people don't agree, I still see the role as ridiculous). The main reason I'm pushing Sandro is because his role is ridiculous, and when offered a chance to reveal it (maybe it turns out his role is 1-shot, then it becomes believable and doesn't cripple mafia's only source of information once he reveals), he doesn't, despite thinking he's going to get shot.
Because my read isn't based on his demeanor, his posting style, something off about his reads (something you can check on for a day or two), I don't want to leave him up. This post in retarded as fuck I'm sorry. Why wouldn't I as town opt to cripple mafia's only source having a role capable of doing so or not. Why would I opt to give mafia certainty instead of doubt? The role itself already cripples mafia. You can plant false messages. You can direct their targets. It's not a choice between giving mafia certainty and giving mafia doubt. Here's the super important distinction. It's actually a choice between giving mafia certainty that they shouldn't have (they are certain any directions are coming from scumbuddies, when in fact they are being directed by a townie) vs. giving mafia doubt. Insert some philosophical line about the enemy you don't see being more dangerous than the enemy you do see.
This has already been refuted in how it doesn't cripple mafia.
Players in a given game aren't mindless drones. If you try to trap someone the way sandro did, only a careless player will get caught.
For example, I would never do what Kurumi did because as scum I tend to operate alone. I don't trust even my scumbuddies because often it is they who get me killed. It is here where Austin's comparison to a cop fails and if he were town he would realize this. In fact he wouldn't be so concerned about balance that hurts mafia when the balance of a role does not determine the holder's alignment.
On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:Why not fully claim as any alignment? You think you're going to get shot.
This is also very easily answered and it's clear that Austin has an agenda here.
A townie has an interest in keeping his role secret if he believes he's going to die. Why? Town doesn't benefit very much from knowing the player's role because we can't honestly expect to gain anything from it. What are we going to gain? Some useless knowledge about the specifics of his role that don't affect us because it's he who has it, not us. We can't catch scum based on knowing how his role works.
However, there is a HUGE benefit for scum if sandro claims. They then know what they are up against and can decide whether or not to kill, or roleblock sandro.
This is different, for example, from asking someone about an ability they have claimed to use (for example a block or a nuke) and asking them to roleclaim in full. VE called me out for "rolefishing" earlier and that's disingenuous on his part. I was trying to get at something based on whether VE had a block or not and he refused, it just means we can't progress any further. I never asked for him to actually roleclaim (because to me his role doesn't matter). There's a difference here, but it's subtle. I don't want to really dig further because it may prove useful later to hold onto this info.
+ Show Spoiler +the usefulness comes in when two players claim to have the same ability
On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +You realize that even if I'm mafia I'm fucking my own team by doing this, since if I have this power as a minion only one person on the mafia team knows that I'm mafia as well. Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up. Show nested quote +If you can explain me how I profit as mafia by doing what I did and how it is more likely for me to be mafia then town, you are free to keep yapping about your insane conspiracy theory. However if you insist on trying to force the situation into your own mold of reality I must conclude you have an agenda behind your posts. What's mafia's main advantage in this game? Large numbers. What's mafia's main disadvantage this game? Less information, can't confirm each other. BOTH of these lead to it being more likely mafia will kill each other. Accidentally, or on purpose (the cost of bussing a member of a 9-man team is less than the cost of bussing a member of a 3 or 6-man team). Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred.
Here's where Austin's argument utterly fails and his agenda shines through.
First of all, sandro's probably the laziest scum I've ever played with. Unless he's magically become so good at playing mafia, the chance of him being scum right now is next to 0.
Remember what I said about Austin having to his plausibility as the basis of his argument? Well, he tries to make it plausible first that sandro could be scum before even considering actually calling him scum. The problem is that it's not very plausible because in order to believe sandro is scum you have to ignore Occam's Razor and ignore a vast amount of motivational evidence that is already present in the thread that points toward sandro being town.
I've already shown that it is in the interest of scum and not town to seek a full roleclaim from sandro. It's also obviously in the interest of mafia to kill sandro right now, and it's in the interest of mafia to undermine sandro so that the damage is minimized.
None of these things have town motivations for a player of austin's calibre. Trust me, he's not bad and he's not stupid. I've seen his reads myself and normally they are well thought out and not logically inconsistent or convoluted. Wiggles's LVI is a great read if you don't believe me.
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EBWOP: Remember what I said about Austin having to refer to plausibility as the basis of his argument?
also, I forgot to mention that if a townie thinks he's going to die, his death is his full roleclaim. It forces scum to do something about him, whereas if he roleclaimed in full before dying scum could simply choose not to kill him based on the knowledge he has then provided them.
Last thing I wanted to say is that if players like GGQ and BM continue to stay on the outskirts of town discussion then we need to start considering putting bullets into their skulls and nooses around their necks. Layabout falls into this category too, and since I see there are too many players like this for now, we need to move on and kill the players we can actually formulate reads on.
By no means is this a free pass. I'm pretty tired of people signing up for games and not playing.
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On July 18 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote: bugs, have you so quickly forgotten that austin went on for about 2 cycles with the toad/kita/MZ conspiracy in LV? ' I don't remember that, no. I'm kinda rereading that now.
If you're right then I might be wrong.
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EBWOP:
On July 18 2012 06:37 sandroba wrote: Fuck new information comes up too fast. Did you play in the game you referred to bugs?
I played in both LV and LVI. I was NoSmurfHere in LVI.
In LVI Austin had posts like these:
On July 01 2012 22:44 austinmcc wrote:I'm not comfortable with a Broodking lynch right at this point, although it looks like that wagon has passed somewhat. For one thing, from what I remember, he's been mislynched a few times (out of a small sample size). - Newbie XIII, D1 mislynch
- Student Mafia, D3 mislynch
- "Area" LIII, modkilled after D3, so no mislynch. Anyone in that game remember him looking scummy?
I'll admit that I don't find "BKE often looks scummy as town" to be strong reasoning, but for D1 it's enough that I don't want lynch him. I also thought BKE had played in another game or two, but didn't see more in his profile. However, I'd love for him to clarify his first post, given all this discussion. Broodking, you say that you don't consider those with 4 or 5 games newbies. The rest of the players seem to disagree, and I know that I do (no more newbie games allowed =/= not a newbie in my mind). IF you accept a much more broad definition of noob, like the thread seems to want, would you alter your first post? Should people with something like 4-8 games be treated like the noobs in your post, or treated like more seasoned players?
I'm alright with adding my vote to mK right now. The whole "role name" thing is actually what I thought Mattchew was referring to earlier when he said a previous poster looked super townie to him, and that was my dumb "don't think you should be trusting that" post. It's in VT pms, it's in the OP, if scum received the VT pm then they had it too, etc. Worried that mK's reaction is a blue who didn't read vs. scum who didn't read (those are the obvious options, so don't get on my junk about possibly revealing blues), but if so, he can defend himself if he ever returns to the thread. The absence in the face of votes doesn't look good to me from that standpoint.
NoSmurf, initially I read you as one of the more sensible and townie folks in the thread. However, this caught my eye somewhat: Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 10:23 NoSmurfHere wrote: You seem to sincerely believe in such terrible logic, so you're probably town. However I'm not voting BKE just because it's day 1. I don't think anything he's done or said is so far particularly scummy. At no point have I agreed with that terrible case, so why bother acknowledging that the rest of you are idiots for bandwagoning him?
On the other hand mafia lurk to shake suspicion ALL the time. mK seemingly has done exactly this, and if he's mafia certainly it's working.
So, in this case, obviously I'm far more inclined to believe that the guy who is actively trying to stop a bad lynch is town whereas the scummy lurker is not. If mK is town he has a huge incentive to address the votes on him and make a case on his scumreads rather than disappear immediately after voting. Also speculating about his status is pretty stupid when I voted for him fairly quickly after he posted.
Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 12:38 NoSmurfHere wrote:On July 01 2012 11:47 Adam4167 wrote:On July 01 2012 06:40 EchelonTee wrote: Hey Adam, remember my first game? When sephirothag or whoever crucified himself for no reason? This is the MrZentor variety of it. I do remember that game, one of my favourites. The difference between sephirotharg and casualman is that sephiroth was trying and making errors, casualman is not even trying at all, just acting obnoxiously. Vigs, shoot him tonight. Lets not waste a lynch and a full day cycle worth of discussion on someone who is trolling us. On July 01 2012 10:21 Mandalor wrote:On July 01 2012 06:25 layabout wrote:On July 01 2012 06:10 Mandalor wrote:On July 01 2012 01:46 MajuGarzett wrote:On July 01 2012 01:42 Mandalor wrote: ##VOTE: BKE
I expected this game to start in like a week or sth. I'll promise to catch up with the thread and be more active beginning tomorrow. If you're not caught up why did you vote? I had read the first ten pages and it seemed to be the best option. Haven't changed my mind now that I'vve caught up. It's day1 tho, I don't expect a 100% surefire candidate to pop up this early. Could you maybe share some of your decision making process? You know, so that we can see you did more than place your vote on the guy with the most votes. sure. On Day1, I feel like there's only two good options for town. a) kill a lurker b) kill a guy that causes trouble just hours into the game I don't like option a). Playing as mafia is fun. You hang around in a chat channel and make your plans. You're probably more busy with the chat than writing in the thread, but still... you're less likely to lurk. If the mafia is smart, they will have a couple of lurkers, but definitely not the majority so the odds of killing a town lurker is a lot higher on day1. BKE qualifies for option b). Whether or not he's mafia, I personally don't like people in my game that use words like "scummy" judging people's first post in the game. Noone has posted enough in this game that I could possibly have built a good enough opinion on them, but apparently he can do that. I'm not even going to address his newbie-theory. I'm not saying I'm sure about BKE whatsoever, but he's our best option in my book. This post stinks. You seem to be ignoring the obvious third choice for town on day 1: we lynch someone acting scummy. You're recommending we lynch BKE on the basis that you don't like people casting early judgments. This is encouraging a passive game, are you afraid of a little bit of heat? You seem to want to punish BKE for playing badly rather than lynch him for being scum, a scum's bread-and-butter move. In addition, your vote just looks like a blatant bandwagon on the guy currently leading the vote count, you only justified it afterwards when MajuGarzett questioned you about it 5 hours later. I think you are scum. ##Vote: Mandalor this is a good case and these are all things I picked up on myself when I read mandalor's posts.
I am completely fine with Mandalor and mKmKmK being lynched today. Anyone else will take some serious convincing. For now I'm going to keep my vote on mK, but in the interest of consolidation and actually lynching someone I have a scumread on, if that lynch doesn't fly I'll push Mandalor with you. Care to explain your train of thought? Over the course of 2 hours, you went from "probably town" to "completely fine with Mandalor lynch/scumread on Mandalor." Would like for you to articulate why you changed your read there.
In this post he comments on the day 1 lynch (BKE) and correctly identifies him as town. My basis on d1 that game for identifying the strongest town players was those who agreed with my assessment that BKE was town. Austin was one of those players and he was shot like n2 because he had at least 3 correct reads and he rapidly established himself as town (though he was unlikely to be protted).
He was one of the only players who suspected Acrofales and he supported me in my Katina push.
I don't remember much from LV but based on a skim of his filter there I do think that marv is right about that, that he was concerned with MZ + Kita + Toad being scum.
However I do strongly believe that Austin is a capable player and a capable scumhunter. In particular his question to Kurumi of "aren't you curious about what out-ed you?" is incredibly strange. He's treating Kurumi like scum, but instead of moving on and trying to find other scum he tries to get sandro to roleclaim. What difference does knowing sandro's role make in determining sandro's alignment?
I mean, there are 9 scum in this game. It's phenomenally easy to scumhunt just in terms of numbers, yet Austin's sole concern has been the balance of sandro's claimed role. In LV I don't remember him frothing at the mouth because he thought kita + MZ + toad were scum together.
That NSH post was me, I was looking at my past posts and forgot to log out.
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For background, the LV MZ/kita/toad thing went kinda like this (and MZ can confirm this):
MZ was shot and masoned by Toad on some night (or it might've been different nights, but he was shot + masoned) and kita was the medic who protected MZ.
Kita was under a lot of lynch pressure on a later day and so claimed medic and said he protected MZ. There was no counterclaim and so essentially MZ and kita were confirmed.
The question arose of whether MZ and kita could be faking together as scum and this was partially what austin was concerned with (though not nearly as fervently as he is here)
On July 18 2012 06:47 sandroba wrote: Can someone please link me to the supposed austin conspiracy theory on LV?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336250¤tpage=123#2456
look at that post (go to the filter) and then like the next 5-6 posts.
Note that throughout that, in the background he's still considering other suspects. He's not solely concerned about his idea that kita + meapak + toad could be scum, and he's still considering other options. Here I don't see that, his sole concern all game has been your role. Now the comparison isn't 1 to 1 since the setups are different, but I suppose it's still useful.
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On July 18 2012 07:00 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:59 slOosh wrote: Still mulling over this austin business, because it doesn't make much sense from either alignment:
Because for scum austin to boldly go against what pseudo confirmed town sandroba, he would have to have some payoff - why bother bringing so much attention to yourself? The way he focuses on sandroba's claim does look like paranoid conspiracy theorist - I cohosted LV and if memory serves he was making really elaborate (read totally wacky) speculations.
Unless it was an order from a higher up (which is hard to swallow since it means someone else who knows more decided this plan of action was worth it), I'm seeing a paranoid town. This post, this post, this post. austin has never rolled scum yet and yet he's supposed to be making this sort of play as his first time? I don't see or understand it
So what? Your first scum game was LV, wasn't it?
Acrofales's first game ever was GoT and he basically crushed town that game.
My first scum game was MLP and I didn't have a hard time playing mafia.
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god damn that's twice today. EBWOP:
On July 18 2012 07:05 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:02 wherebugsgo wrote:On July 18 2012 07:00 marvellosity wrote:On July 18 2012 06:59 slOosh wrote: Still mulling over this austin business, because it doesn't make much sense from either alignment:
Because for scum austin to boldly go against what pseudo confirmed town sandroba, he would have to have some payoff - why bother bringing so much attention to yourself? The way he focuses on sandroba's claim does look like paranoid conspiracy theorist - I cohosted LV and if memory serves he was making really elaborate (read totally wacky) speculations.
Unless it was an order from a higher up (which is hard to swallow since it means someone else who knows more decided this plan of action was worth it), I'm seeing a paranoid town. This post, this post, this post. austin has never rolled scum yet and yet he's supposed to be making this sort of play as his first time? I don't see or understand it So what? Your first scum game was LV, wasn't it? Acrofales's first game ever was GoT and he basically crushed town that game. My first scum game was MLP and I didn't have a hard time playing mafia. it was LIV, quickly followed by LV I don't understand your point. It's what slOosh says there - what's the payoff for going after sandroba and causing THIS discussion we're having now? Did austin really think he was going to get sandroba to claim to him and help scum or something? I don't think so. Your entire post (look! players who are good at scum without practice!) is effectively disproven by the fact that austin is close to getting lynched now for making a fucking dumbass play.
so your argument is that if it's his first scum game, he won't be doing a very good play.
Clearly you just argued against your own point, did you not? Like you need a valid reason to actually consider him town. This is not a very good reason. The whole "but this play doesn't have scum benefits" doesn't really fly when your argument for him being town revolves around him not playing optimally. If he's not playing optimally then ofc it won't have clear scum benefits.
However all of that is kind of moot when it DOES have scum benefits. Outting sandro's role under the guise of a curious townie gives mafia info that they otherwise would not have. Easiest way to do that is to threaten to waste your vote until sandro claims, and then change it. A worse player than sandro may have just claimed and this whole situation would've disappeared long ago.
On July 18 2012 07:11 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:09 syllogism wrote: If this was a normal setup his play would feel too audacious, but in this setup I'm not so sure as there is a lot of mafia and they are, especially at this stage, lone wolves and probably feel more free to push blatantly pro-mafia agenda. Moreover, this isn't the only problem I have with his play so far as he still hasn't posted anything that I would consider mafia hunting or given opinions on anyone at all, even though he promised some thoughts quite a while ago. ok this post is good because i can break it down into two parts 1) i just don't think austin would be blatant like you say there 2) you are absolutely correct that he hasn't scumhunted and that's why i'm torn on the lynch
You think a first time scum player wouldn't be so "blatant".
Isn't that what a lot of first time scum players are??!!
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I think it's because you contradicted yourself. You don't even agree with yourself, how can you agree with anyone else?
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On July 18 2012 07:17 sandroba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:13 marvellosity wrote: well, whatever. I just don't think austin would think he could get sandroba to out his role like that. I read that as misguided townie.
i read as scum the fact that he does jack shit all else. He can't be both so either way you are wrong =P. Seriously now if you are going to argue something first form an useful opinion.
haha I don't think he understands this.
He himself says he's torn on Austin's alignment yet he's using two different reasons to call Austin two different alignments, then says he disagrees when he doesn't have an opinion in the first place.
I always find it funny when people confuse themselves out of good lynches based on what they perceive to be a play they themselves would or would not make in another person's shoes. It's happened a lot before and it usually ends up being the wrong idea. People used it in GoT to say Acro couldn't be scum (no way a new scum would do this!). I did it in LIV where I said "no way scum would bus each other like this!" until Toad vet claimed...lol.
Happens all the time, Occam's Razor is our friend IMO. The simplest breakdown is that Austin has not scumhunted and he has solely been concerned with sandro's roleclaim. This is unprecedented behavior, because as town Austin at the very least comments on lynch candidates (such as BH and layabout in this game). So far all game he has done nothing but call for sandro's roleclaim. In addition he never (afaik) directly calls sandro scum.
Anyway I'm going to leave this here for now. The best lynches for today are Austin, BH, layabout. If we have 5-6 hours left then consolidation needs to occur soon.
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On July 18 2012 07:27 marvellosity wrote: wbg I'm not stupid. stop patronising me.
I'm not patronizing you, you just don't seem to be aware of how your own posts come across.
You say two different conflicting things about austin and then try to argue one way when a few posts before you used the same reason to argue the opposite.
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man why must this always be so hard -_-
Maybe the safest choice is killing layabout after all
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