Normal Mini Mafia II

On July 06 2012 14:58 Sinensis wrote:
I'll support the occasional policy lynch if there's someone I think should be banned from mafia in general and I don't want to deal with at all. There isn't anyone like that in this game though so for our purposes, I am opposed to policy lynches. Since that seems to be what we're talking about.

I am disappointed in sloosh for the random vote, would rather he at least said something about why. Maybe he'll come back later and clear it up; he would be wise to in my opinion.

On July 06 2012 22:15 prplhz wrote:
not this again....................

MrZentor - your read on Sinensis day 1 was "cautious, lurky" scum, and you've come out strong with a vote on him day 2. Yet Sinensis is no longer cautious, nor lurky. So what makes up your scumread on him?

On July 06 2012 14:58 Sinensis wrote:
I'll support the occasional policy lynch if there's someone I think should be banned from mafia in general and I don't want to deal with at all. There isn't anyone like that in this game though so for our purposes, I am opposed to policy lynches. Since that seems to be what we're talking about.

I am disappointed in sloosh for the random vote, would rather he at least said something about why. Maybe he'll come back later and clear it up; he would be wise to in my opinion.

On July 07 2012 12:03 Sinensis wrote:
I thought I checked this thread before work and nothing was going on... give me like, 40 minutes to catch up 10 pages just got home.

On July 07 2012 12:42 Sinensis wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up:

sloosh, what are you doing? You vote wiggles with no explanation, people call you out for it, you change your vote to me with no explanation at first, people call you out for it, then your explanation is that I was your first suspicion (even though you randomly voted wiggles first?) because my posting is mechanical? My posting is mechanical and that's why I'm scummy, maybe you could elaborate on that. Even though you seem to have changed your mind again to prplhz before I responded to you. Are you just jumping on the easiest target every time? What's the deal?

Prplhz shouldn't be lynched today. No way in hell. He's gotten too much negative attention from too many people, it seems likely to me mafia is pushing for the easy lynch against an aggressive player. And why wouldn't they? prplhz isn't playing as good or as friendly as he could be. This is the last time I defend him against the rest of the angry mob unless he stops with the "LOL SCUM LOL."

I am going to go with gut for my day one vote. Zephirdd's posting is the scummiest right now in my opinion. He spends a lot of his time telling other, presumably town players, how to play. Something mafia can't seem to resist doing in most of the games I play. He is stating mostly FACTS (people talking like they know something for certain are suspicious because only mafia have FACTS) and very little speculation.

As for everyone who is suspicious of me for lurking, you're right, it's suspicious, my bad. I work during the day (USEAST) and can't post till night usually. Expect my posts then, like I'm doing now. If anyone has any questions for me now is a good time I will be around.

##vote: Zephirdd

sloosh, what are you doing? You vote wiggles with no explanation, people call you out for it, you change your vote to me with no explanation at first, people call you out for it, then your explanation is that I was your first suspicion (even though you randomly voted wiggles first?) because my posting is mechanical? My posting is mechanical and that's why I'm scummy, maybe you could elaborate on that. Even though you seem to have changed your mind again to prplhz before I responded to you. Are you just jumping on the easiest target every time? What's the deal?

On July 07 2012 13:01 Sinensis wrote:
These people saying I'm too mechanical... what? You want me to post hilarious one liners and memes like others? Maybe someone could host a mafia pictionary edition where no one can post more than one image and one line of text at a time. We could call it 4chan mafia. Maybe I should use less capitalization and punctuation to help fit in.

I understand being criticized for lurking, but being "too mechanical?" For my posts being well thought out, really? There are actually people bashing me for that?

On July 07 2012 13:58 Sinensis wrote:


You switched your lynch candidate 3 times in 4 posts, and one of those posts was an edit. My thoughts were up to date a page ago.

On July 09 2012 12:51 Sinensis wrote:
This is going to end poorly for town.

On July 10 2012 06:12 marvellosity wrote:
Why marvelbabe thinks Zentorpoopants is scummyscumscum

It's a nice combination of reasons of actions this game and a little bit of meta. First of all Zentor says Sinensis is 'suspicious' and only after being prodded does he reveal it's because he is being 'cautious, lurky scum'. Ok that's fine. Events later in the lynch aren't so favourable. He never deigns to tell us why drwiggl3s is a bad lynch at all, he just tells us Sinensis is more likely to flip scum. No reasoning given either way. His posts towards the end of the day amount to telling town we're stupid for voting how we are, but without actually trying to convince us otherwise. There is also the fact that he tried to claim credit for the Sinensis wagon when actually he didn't lead the wagon at all, slOosh did.

Then comes the episode a little earlier today. He comes in with a vote on Sinensis straight off the bat. But he doesn't tell us why. I quiz him on it, and for some reason he refuses to tell me - I point out that clearly Sinensis is NOT being cautious and lurky, which were his original reasons. All I get back is that his transition out of this phase was 'extremely scummy'. Not a reason at all. He's riding this wagon to make it look like he's doing something. Eventually after extremely heavy pressure from me he caves and makes a "case" but for me it is too late by then.

In Emergency Mafia he never didn't tell people why he was lynching people. There was proper analysis of his lynch candidates (to an extent). I also found it an interesting psychological moment earlier in the game when he said this:



The bit in brackets. Of course it could be completely innocent, but I think it betrays his mindset this game - trying very hard not to be so, and condemning someone else for it. Also note his point of view on prplhz - reckless townie. Arguably what Sinensis has turned into, but we're not treated to the distinction.

Most of all though, I'd like to draw similarities between comments here and in Bang Bang where he was Serial Killer. I first got a scumread on Zentor after a little exchange we had:





And here:



In Bang Bang his read on Toad mysteriously appeared and his natural reaction when quizzed was "other people have said it". Compare to here where he also abdicates responsibility for giving a reason for his reads on the basis that other people have said it.

Zentor is scum.

It's a nice combination of reasons of actions this game and a little bit of meta. First of all Zentor says Sinensis is 'suspicious' and only after being prodded does he reveal it's because he is being 'cautious, lurky scum'. Ok that's fine. Events later in the lynch aren't so favourable. He never deigns to tell us why drwiggl3s is a bad lynch at all, he just tells us Sinensis is more likely to flip scum. No reasoning given either way. His posts towards the end of the day amount to telling town we're stupid for voting how we are, but without actually trying to convince us otherwise. There is also the fact that he tried to claim credit for the Sinensis wagon when actually he didn't lead the wagon at all, slOosh did.

Then comes the episode a little earlier today. He comes in with a vote on Sinensis straight off the bat. But he doesn't tell us why. I quiz him on it, and for some reason he refuses to tell me - I point out that clearly Sinensis is NOT being cautious and lurky, which were his original reasons. All I get back is that his transition out of this phase was 'extremely scummy'. Not a reason at all. He's riding this wagon to make it look like he's doing something. Eventually after extremely heavy pressure from me he caves and makes a "case" but for me it is too late by then.

On June 16 2012 00:03 MrZentor wrote:
I'm not going to be redundant.

The reasons for Zelblade's guilt have been thoroughly exhausted.

##Vote : Zelblade

Oh, and I'd be delighted to destroy any case anybody tries to make against me.

In Bang Bang his read on Toad mysteriously appeared and his natural reaction when quizzed was "other people have said it". Compare to here where he also abdicates responsibility for giving a reason for his reads on the basis that other people have said it.

In Emergency Mafia he never didn't tell people why he was lynching people.

The bit in brackets. Of course it could be completely innocent, but I think it betrays his mindset this game - trying very hard not to be so, and condemning someone else for it. Also note his point of view on prplhz - reckless townie. Arguably what Sinensis has turned into, but we're not treated to the distinction.

1) Early in the game, he was extremely wishy-washy. Like, in calling out Sinensis, he said his play was "weird". And when someone asked him about prplhz he defensively said "I didn't say prplhz play wasn't weird, I said Sin's play WAS weird". It just kinda felt like hedging his bets, but then he went on to clarify that he thought Sin was playing "overly cautious" and prplhz "overly careless"...ultimately, it ended up being a null-tell but I didn't like the way he phrased it.

2) Later on his whole contradiction in trying to get votes back on Sinensis...where he was all "Guys late-switching is a bad idea - let's late-switch!". I understand what he was saying, but as I said at the time I didn't like the way it read...it seemed like someone just trying to shovel shit on the new wagon.

3) Town-hunting - he seems to be quick to defend people and not so quick to accuse them except in the case of Sinensis. He's now down with a marv/VE/Sin "scumteam" but he doesn't really say why he thinks I'm scum or marv is scum...so really it's just tacking names onto the same attack he's been consistently pushing all game.

On the whole, I find I have a really hard time reading Zentor's intentions/actions, but most of this seems to indicate scum.

On July 10 2012 06:52 marvellosity wrote:
"I've been far more generous with my explanations this game" - rofl!

all he has done is copy pasted what other people wrote

What about the fact that the people you copied don't believe what they wrote anymore? Doesn't that mean you think I'm scum for literally zero reason?

On July 12 2012 06:42 Zephirdd wrote:
Well, fuck me. Either I have the whole scum team in MrZentor-sloOsh-Bluelightz, or I got nothing.

Basically, the very first few interactions from MrZentor are soft-defenses of sloOsh and Bluelightz, or something that is not related to the game at all.

The first time he attacks someone is on the Sinensis 1st post, and he has gone on tunneling him the whole freaking game.

He has also defended prplhz in order to push that Sinensis lynch. Defending a town and attacking another is pretty much the simplest way to play scum(remember I'm assuming mrzentor/sloosh/blz as scums), since it IS a null tell. The problem here is who he defends and who he attacks, and how.

At the time, prplhz had made 4-5 terrible posts, while Sinensis made one, I said before and I'll keep saying it, prplhz case was much better than Sinensis' "first post case". That's not an issue.

A issue arises on this post:

This is a completely neutral-ground post. This is a post made from a perspective of "omg two townies are fighting eachother. Let's calm them down." The issue here is, Sinensis was being abrasive and stubborn and that was a perfect chance to attack him for it. He believed Sinensis was scum and kept believing it throughout day 2. Why didn't he attack him on the first chance he got?

I can't answer that from a town perspective. The answer I have is "because he knew these were two townies fighting". This is an instinctive post to be done in order to blend in and feel townie, but it makes no sense from the ground he is standing.


At night 1, he has posted this:

What is this? This is a scum list. A list of three players he considers to be the scum team. At the time, there was suspicion being cast over VE. He had Sinensis as his lynch target day 1. He admitted himself that he thought marv was playing so well he could be a scum manipulating town. This is a scum list, done on night 1, before marv confirmed himself.

Why would a town player make a scum list on night 1? There are a few reasons. Gauge reactions, look awesome if all three of them flip scum after the game.

Why would a scum player make a list on night 1? Create confusion, make a little ground to attack all of them later on the game.

Now, this post in itself isn't an issue. The issue is this post made on day 2(post marv confirmation):

This post reads "Oh, that's not actually a scum list". But when you come back to night 2, he says:


So wait, that actually WAS a scum list!

Even if it wasn't, there is absolutely no reason for a town player to create a list and not say what it is.

This list thing is a huge contradiction that does not make sense from a town perspective.

His day 2 is to tunnel Sinensis HARD, on the basis of the very first post made by Sinensis. And THEN he makes a case on Sinensis, except he didn't make the case and stood on neutral ground when he had his first chance. Why? Because he didn't have to push hard Sinensis' lynch on day1, when three townies are the lynch candidates.

He's afraid of "copying" bluelightz' case because he doesn't want to be accused of copying a case. Why would a town player say that?
As a town, no matter the pressure on me, I'll push for a candidate with someone's else case if I feel it's correct.

Finally, the way he pushes Sinensis is in an extremely anti-town way. He isn't looking for evidence, he is picking straws from his posts to create a case.

As an example, take me creating this case. I asked a few questions, and these helped me build up the case(specifically the part of the list). Instead, MrZentor only throws the case and says it's correct. He doesn't ask Sinensis for connections(I feel every town player should force connections whenever possible), he doesn't ask for Sinensis for his thought process. He looked at his first post and decided "I will push this guy". He does not consider the possibility of Sinensis being town until night 2, after a fuckload of pressure.

MrZentor is scum.
sloOsh's interactions with him and his lynch yesterday(after what he promised) makes him scum too. For more, check out my counter-case on him which shows he is making a forged case on me.

Out of the remaining candidates, I feel Bluelightz is the most likely to be scum at this point. His whole play this game was "afk, make case on X, throw random comment, rinse and repeat". Unfortunately, he is the one I'm most unsure of; It would make a lot of sense if he were though.

That's all I can say.

Basically, the very first few interactions from MrZentor are soft-defenses of sloOsh and Bluelightz, or something that is not related to the game at all.

The first time he attacks someone is on the Sinensis 1st post, and he has gone on tunneling him the whole freaking game.

He has also defended prplhz in order to push that Sinensis lynch. Defending a town and attacking another is pretty much the simplest way to play scum(remember I'm assuming mrzentor/sloosh/blz as scums), since it IS a null tell. The problem here is who he defends and who he attacks, and how.

At the time, prplhz had made 4-5 terrible posts, while Sinensis made one, I said before and I'll keep saying it, prplhz case was much better than Sinensis' "first post case". That's not an issue.

This is a completely neutral-ground post. This is a post made from a perspective of "omg two townies are fighting eachother. Let's calm them down." The issue here is, Sinensis was being abrasive and stubborn and that was a perfect chance to attack him for it. He believed Sinensis was scum and kept believing it throughout day 2. Why didn't he attack him on the first chance he got?

What is this? This is a scum list. A list of three players he considers to be the scum team. At the time, there was suspicion being cast over VE. He had Sinensis as his lynch target day 1. He admitted himself that he thought marv was playing so well he could be a scum manipulating town. This is a scum list, done on night 1, before marv confirmed himself.

Why would a town player make a scum list on night 1? There are a few reasons. Gauge reactions, look awesome if all three of them flip scum after the game.

Why would a scum player make a list on night 1? Create confusion, make a little ground to attack all of them later on the game.

This post reads "Oh, that's not actually a scum list".

His day 2 is to tunnel Sinensis HARD, on the basis of the very first post made by Sinensis. And THEN he makes a case on Sinensis, except he didn't make the case and stood on neutral ground when he had his first chance. Why? Because he didn't have to push hard Sinensis' lynch on day1, when three townies are the lynch candidates.

He's afraid of "copying" bluelightz' case because he doesn't want to be accused of copying a case. Why would a town player say that?
As a town, no matter the pressure on me, I'll push for a candidate with someone's else case if I feel it's correct.

Finally, the way he pushes Sinensis is in an extremely anti-town way. He isn't looking for evidence, he is picking straws from his posts to create a case.

+ Show Spoiler +

On July 12 2012 09:57 MrZentor wrote:
Ugh, I'm way too tired to respond to that now. >.<

* Point 1 - Sinensis push
Early Day1, MrZentor points out Sinensis' first post. Based on that post, he proceeds to spend the whole day pushing for his lynch. Sounds legit right?
The issue is on the moment me and Sinensis fight eachother. Sinensis does something really, really terrible which is blatantly ignoring my post.

That is something that a town player should push for someone's lynch. Nothing is 100% and it's possible that Sinensis is town even after doing that; It is however something that should be pushed for when you believe that person is scum.

This is an incredibly neutral ground post. He is trying to stop our brawl - seems like the right thing for a town player to do right? For a town player that does not want to push either lynch, that is. MrZentor, however, wanted to push Sinensis. So why did he simply ignore his newest posts and kept pushing for that single first post?

This is a new point, and I now realize it's actually important.
He has 29 posts on day 1, a day with about 17 pages of posting.

He has a candidate for a lynch, and he firmly believes he is scum.
He does not actively push for the lynch of his candidate. Why? Why a town player that believes X is scum is not trying to pursue other players into the lynch of his candidate?
A scum player, however, loves to do that. Creates a little suspicion, claims credit on the wagon, and just skims by the day unnoticed. "He is scum hunting!" a player would think, but under further analysis you can see he won't try to pursue for the lynch as he should. Ask questions, create material from his lynch candidate. He is fine sitting on that one-post case and complaining about people switching around - when he himself didn't actively try to keep people into his candidate.

* Point 3 - The List
(I'll use his answer to this point as well, it's relevant)
He posts a scum list on Night 1. "Sinensis, Marv, VE".
On Day 2, when questioned, he posts this:

This is not a transparent post. Anyone reading this will interpret he is saying that the "list" is not a list.

Anyone reading this will interpret he is saying that the "list" is not a list.

the "list" is not a list.

^Denies that it is a scum list. This is basic English interpretation.

Wait, if he wasn't denying it was a scumlist, that means it was a scumlist right? NOT(NOT(scumlist)) = scumlist. Logic, right?
Still not clarified.

Finally, he clarifies it. It's a random list with two leaders... WAIT WHAT.

VE was not a leader at the time. In fact, people were casting suspicion on him.
MrZentor himself said he thought marv could be scum at this exact point in time.