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On June 23 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: alright, but if we put me aside for a moment
would you rather have risk or zentor with you day 2 to smoke out scum? I think risk.nuke's more likely to get passionate when he thinks he's caught a scum. Based on Zentor's recent play, he is more likely to just post filters and not actually tell us he thinks that person is scum.
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What are you comparing risk.nuke's play to? I'd like to have a look myself, because from what I recall of my games with risk.nuke, he has come off quite scummy as town based on his small average number of contributions.
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On June 23 2012 08:42 VisceraEyes wrote:Sum of All Fears MafiaHe's clearly capable, but he's just not. It could be scummy, but with everyone calling for his head, if he's town I can't fault him for not wanting to post in that kind of environment can you? Risk.Nuke I'm basing on my interactions with him in IRC Mafia and one of my first games back here, Election Mafia. Immediately I thought he was scum because of how he was pushing his reads, but he was PUSHING HIS READS ya know? Hard, too...like, scummy hard is what I thought, but I was wrong. Wow, I've actually never seen risk.nuke come out that strong in recent games. I'd be interested in hearing him explain why that is.
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On June 23 2012 14:37 slOosh wrote:It's like he wants to be lynched or something ... ##Unvote: Snarfs ##Vote: MrZentorSnarfs, I don't see how you can deem that the bolded strikethrough as irrelevant when referring to your thoughts on rastaban. Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:36 Snarfs wrote:I agree, this post is very scummy. Also notice how the general feeling of the second paragraph is that we should back off marv a bit so that we can get some better reads and not waste the entire 48 hours, but then the third paragraph is him coming right back to marv and pushing him? Now, granted he does appear to be trying to ask more "nicely", but why not try focusing on someone else if you feel too much time is being wasted on marv? Pre-Edit: Noticed rastaban has posted a "case" on risk.nuke after slOosh also commented on his post. I really don't like rastaban's case as it is quite exaggerated. It feels to me as it was a quick case he made as he noticed he was getting flak for not commenting on anyone besides marv. risk.nuke's actions have been quite clear as marv and shraft explained here: [ click] How is it irrelevant? Because without the full context it doesn't make sense? I was just trying to condense my quotes so that I didn't have a giant wall of text.... I don't really see how you're trying to make a case out of this.
On June 24 2012 00:53 slOosh wrote: This lynch feels ... wrong. MrZentor, I need your full thoughts on rastaban and Snarfs. I'm having suspicions that you are a foolish town player and as much as I would like to lynch you for poor, poor play, we don't lynch bad players, we lynch scum. So quickly, your thoughts on rastaban and Snarfs. And also Probulous. If you put in effort I'll help take the lynch off you.
Snarfs I'm still waiting; just because the bandwagon on MrZentor is rolling doesn't mean we all take a reprieve. For God's sake, I can't even take a Friday night off? You're just going out of your way to make me look bad!
Hmm RE: MrZentor lynch, I get what slOosh is saying about it feeling wrong. Something seems off about prplhz and how he sort of spearheaded this lynch by first starting with a vote on MrZentor and then his case just kept getting stronger and stronger.
Normally when you're hunting scum you: 1) Find evidence that someone might be scum 2) Vote said person 3) If you're really sure, try to convince others that he's scum
However, what I'm seeing here from prplhz is: 1) Vote said person 2) Try to convince others to vote said person 3) Find evidence that he might be scum
I would appreciate some others looking over prplhz again and telling me what they think.
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Hey guys, just want to apologize for the lack of content yesterday and probably today before deadline. I've been hosting my cousin at my place this weekend and he's moving away on Tuesday so I have been spending time with him. I'll have more time to catch up on the thread once he leaves though. Just a heads up.
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All right, caught up on thread and just going through a couple people's filters and trying to organize some thoughts.
In the meantime though, like VE, I'll be around for the next hour or so so if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.
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Oh yea, zephirdd is scum.
I actually like prplhz's case on zephirdd and I'm having a hard time justifying his response from a town point of view because of how purposefully vague it appears to be:
On June 24 2012 05:48 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:29 Shraft wrote:On June 24 2012 03:17 Zephirdd wrote:On June 23 2012 18:08 marvellosity wrote: I'm not sure how you can play mafia Zeph if it feels fabricated to you. It means you have no pulse at all on the psychology and emotion in a game, and therefore I really don't know how you can even try to play successfully :/ AtE much? On June 24 2012 01:49 risk.nuke wrote: rastaban zephirdd and zentor, what are your thoughts on eachother? rastaban sounds like town with bad cases. Zentor sounds trollish and uninterested, usually a signal of a VT(because VT is indeed an uninteresting role) or a scum(with the intention of creating confusion in the thread and wasting discussion). IMO, Zentor sounds like a good day 1 lynch atm. ##Vote MrZentor Can you explain why rastaban sounds like town? Because when I looked at Bang Bang I didn't really see any similarities with his play in this game. At least no similarities that you wouldn't expect from the same player regardless of alignment, anyway. How did you go from thinking that rastaban was your best scum read to thinking that he is town? All you said was this: On June 23 2012 04:47 Zephirdd wrote:On June 23 2012 04:25 slOosh wrote: Rastaban looks townish to me; the main case against him right now looks like "he is playing bad", rather than "he is playing like scum".
Something in the back of my mind is still clicking everytime I read Snarfs. Can you cool cats reread his last post and tell me your thoughts? It would be great to get some discussion particularly from marv, prplhz and risk.nuke.
And as for now here will be my preliminary vote to hold me accountable. ##Vote: Snarfs All I read from his last post is "there is no difference between Zentor and risk.nuke". The only way this would be a scum tell if risk was scum. idk, snarfs looks null to me. Well, the most glaring scum tell so far(for me) is rastaban, but if you think about it he's just playing as his town meta(based on bang bang) and all he's done is a bad case, not a scummy case. Since he is "the most glaring scum tell so far" for you, you must've surely seen some clear signs pointing toward him being town when you read Bang Bang Mafia for you to believe that he is town. Maybe I should have explained it better. I said it was "the most glaring scum tell" because there wasn't anything else at the time. In the same post, I say that it's probably just a bad case. From what I've read, he is looking similar to his BangBang2 meta. similar. First off, zephir appears to be saying that he is reading rasta as town. However, the italicized "similar" indicates to me that he is not committing to this stance at that point in time. It shows a person who wants to be able to backtrack on their words later on so that they can claim that they never felt one way or another about their reads. A town player should have no worries saying that they have a town read on someone if they truly do, but zephir is trying to cover his tracks.
Notice how this is a theme in his entire response to people calling him out:
Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:54 prplhz wrote:Okay I wanted to write a case on Zephirdd last night but then I really had to sleep and I've been busy today but here we go. On June 22 2012 08:41 Zephirdd wrote: This is a semi-closed setup. If there are 13 players, it's possible that 12 are medics and 1 is a scum. Of course that's retarded as fuck, but nothing is concrete and we shouldn't think "but it's not common to 2 of X" exist ever. at all.
In fact, we can't even confirm the existence of a SK until after the night phase.
I'm not sure about Millers instaclaiming. While it clears path for cops(as it's pretty obvious that they will show red), it also reduces the number of possible blues, making it easier for scum. At least what I understood from the setup is that Millers can't be blues.
If anything, Millers should be breadcrumbing and claiming in case a cop calls them guilty. For all other purposes, they should be *Vanilla*(unclaimed, aka. possible blue) to make it harder for mafia to shoot into blues. This is the post in question. People have already said that this is a bad plan and I agree with that. My problem isn't that he's suggesting a bad plan. it's that I think it comes from a scum perspective. Scum are much more likely to suggest plans that they think are bad for them. For scum, it doesn't really matter if millers claim or not but what Zephirdd focuses on is how it will make them confirmed green and not blue. Zephirdd thinks that that will narrow down the pool of potential blues that scum can shoot which will be a plus for scum. Townies would never focus on this because they don't really care about blues, they care about analysis and avoiding chaos and that's what miller claims will help them avoid. This is really the crux of my case but I'm going to write some more that might convince other people too. First Zephirdd is pretty suspicious about rastaban. Worst case ever into doesn't feel like your other games. He never does anything. Next he has an epiphany that VisceraEyes and marvellosity are scum and again he doesn't do anything about it. No vote, no push, no anything. He looks pretty convinced from what he is saying but he's not acting on it. In the end he jumps on the zentor wagon as the 9th voter, an ultra safe vote based off of two lines of analysis that has already been made several times by other people. What you guys think about this? What do you expect me to do? Push for a no-lynch? That's essentially what I would do at this point. I disagree with a rastaban lynch right now. I agree with a MrZentor lynch right now. I disagree with both marv or VE lynch right now, but I will come back to this later. The problem about their lynch is that one is connected to another, but if one flips town then there is nothing to back up for the other lynch. tbh, a vigilante could use a shot on one of them(here vigis in this setup?) [--snip--] Again, he responds in a manner that never actually reveals his opinions on people.
- His earlier reason for wanting to lynch MrZentor (as prplhz pointed out) was not that he thought he was scum.
- He says that he disagrees with a rastaban lynch right now.
- He disagrees with both a marv and a VE lynch, even though he's claimed that he feels they could both be scum bussing each other.
Even in his recent posts, it appears that he believes marv and VE are a scum team, but rather than actually attempting to prove that they are scum by finding real evidence, he makes crazy guesses which seem downright silly (as in, what information can be gathered from positing such wild ideas?) and doesn't actually show any commitment to pushing either marv or VE:
On June 25 2012 08:49 Zephirdd wrote: That's not the thing. There is Probulous, Mattchew, prplhz, Snarfs, you, sloosh(...) who would be viable night shot targets. Why would they pick VE out of them all, considering most of his actions day 1 was to fight you and that's it? When there are so many targets out there, why would they shoot VE of them all?
Let me tell you what I think happened. VE was jailed. Then scum KP didn't happen. Then you thought "fuck, our goon was jailed." and then you posted that.
Overall, zephir's entire play this game has shown a fear to commit to any particular line of thinking; a fear I don't believe a town player would have, which is why I believe zephir is scum.
Now, another person who's been avoiding the spotlight and also caught my attention recently is Shraft. This one I'm a little less sure about and I think the fact that I have a town read on risk.nuke might be influencing my opinions. However, something about this post just seems off:
On June 25 2012 10:30 Shraft wrote:risk.nuke you need to step up your game. Wanting to lynch lurers and then lurking hard yourself makes you look bad. On top of that your only substantial post is the one where you defend yourself (you never followed up on that post either, despite saying that you would). Why would you even bother defending that hard when nobody agreed with his case anyway? You ask for the other lurkers to share their reads and to contribute, but you do nothing of the kind yourself. Aside from lurkers, you're only suspicious of rastaban (but you haven't really shared much thought on him either, it looks more like OMGUS to me). And what the fuck is this? Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 07:51 risk.nuke wrote: Rastaban if you really are townie (which I don't think you are) you dodged a lynch last night and seeing how we mislynched a townie that makes the situation even worse for you. My point is if you don't want to die soon you should do something more usefull then dumb shit tunneling. He would've tried to dodge the lynch regardless of his alignment, why do you act as if it is a scum tell? I'm not sure exactly what it is about this post that gets me, but it just seems like he's trying too hard to make something out of nothing. I don't even think risk.nuke mentions wanting to lynch lurkers. And asking why someone would bother defending themselves? I can imagine why a towny would want to defend themself....
It's certainly not a case on Shraft, more just a feeling at this point, but I'm definitely keeping my eye on him. For now though, my vote goes on zephir.
##Vote zephirdd
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Ahh fuck me
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On June 25 2012 22:40 Shraft wrote:@SnarfsI'm not trying to make something out of nothing. The issue with that post is that he takes something that is a null tell and says that it makes rastaban look even scummier. The reason that I brought up that he unnecessarily defended is because he mentioned it in bypass in this post where he said he wanted MrZ to explain himself. He says "He spends half of his posts unnecessarily defending himself and the other half is useless 1-worders.". You're right on the lurker lynching part, he never explicitly says "I want to lynch lurkers". I took it for granted that he had said something along those lines after reading someone else's post about risk, quite likely this post by VE, but now, after looking through his filter, I realised that he hadn't. The closest thing he's said would be that he was too lenient on lurkers before, which clearly isn't the same thing. risk.nuke is a null tell for me right now. Can you explain why you have a town read on him? Hmm that makes sense. I'd actually missed the part where he mentions that MrZ spends half his posts unnecessarily defending himself.
It was actually this quote here that gave me a towny vibe on risk.nuke:
On June 23 2012 10:15 risk.nuke wrote: So my first thought is what two players are yelling the loudest at eachother. It's Vicera and Marv. So naturally my first assumption would be to remove both of those from my day 1 lynch pool. While Vicera doubtlessly seems like the towniest townie ever towned marv seems a bit scummy. Partly because how his inabillity to see how Vicera is town. If one of VE or marv are scum, then risk.nuke is tying himself closely to the lynch and that seems like bad scum play given we would surely come back and notice that risk.nuke didn't want to lynch into them during day 1.
If VE and marv are both town, I don't think that mafia would immediately think to remove two loud players from their lynch pool, but would rather be looking to see which one appeared weaker or had a bandwagon form on them in order to eliminate the more vocal members.
Either way I wouldn't see a scum player wanting to make this statement.
I'm going to go through VE and marv's back and forth again today. I think I also need to go over Probulous again given slOosh's suspicions, but I probably won't have time until this evening as I've got a pile of work to do today.
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I don't want to regurgitate a bunch of opinions others have stated so I'll try to be concise in summarizing my own feelings.
- I agree that marv's case on VE was entirely a stretch. To reference his conclusion:
On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. - It's all WIFOM for us to guess what you would do as scum - You're exaggerating to say that he twists your words - Yes, he never talks about rastaban, but that is a null tell - both scum and town can get busy and/or forget to respond to certain things - He pushes you and prplhz and at least mentions his suspicions of zephir, plus you're clearly his biggest scum read
On June 26 2012 11:42 Probulous wrote:marvellosity [--snip--] TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia. ##Vote marvellosity - Why would town continue to be vague and confusing in their responses after seeing that people thought it was scummy?
I have to agree with Probulous's case here and Shraft's own recently posted opinions. marv consciously played an anti-town day 1 and I just don't believe that he would do that as town after being mislynched so recently in a similar game.
##Vote marvellosity
@Mattchew: You list marv as one of your scum reads; yet for some reason you think that rastaban is a better lynch today? You even say that "Either way [marv] eventually needs a noose." So why bother prolonging this if you're that sure he needs to hang? Protecting your scumbuddy?
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On June 26 2012 03:43 rastaban wrote: @Snarfs
But notice how even after he says to remove both of them he follows up with "marv seems a bit scummy. Partly because how his inabillity to see how Vicera is town." which leaves it open for a future vote and still throws suspicion on marv. As for removing VE from the lynch pool, marvs recent vote on VE was the first this whole game. Despite the back and forth it was only ever 1 way, VE was not in any danger of being lyched at any point so all he really states is: don't vote marv yet, but he is a bit scummy.
Also a lot of people had come out in defense of marv by that point saying we need to hold off on lynching him. If this had been the one to help get the votes off marv I would be more inclined to think it town aligned but as it is, it just seems regurgitated to me.
I think I might have had the timings wrong on that one. For some reason I thought that both VE and marv were viable candidates at that time so if risk.nuke wanted to move the vote one way or the other he could have at least attempted to do so. Looking back though, you're right, VE was never really a candidate.
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On June 25 2012 08:07 Probulous wrote: If a person is jailed are they notified? If so, is the notification the same as if they have been roleblocked?
On June 26 2012 09:46 Probulous wrote: Some of you have missed my reasoning for this post. Since we had two day posts with different night actions I wanted to see if I could glean some information from reactions between those two posts. Remember scum and the SK would be expecting night kills. If I was an SK and my shot didn't go through I would know I had been roleblocked but with no notification. Hence I would be completely confused, expecially given the shot was likely Zephirdd (explained previously). So I would have to assume that either the host got the night stuff mixed up, or they forgot to send me my PM, or I don't get a notification of a blocked hit. There would be a big chance that someone roleblocked me preventing my kill and that could be town or mafia, so coming out and saying anything about the SK would be risky. Especially immediately after the night. No I would expect the SK to be much more cautious after possibly being blocked, hence my statement.
Anyone else notice this? Looks like Prob slipped and claimed SK.
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Oh wait, he claimed being roleblocked.
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On June 26 2012 15:15 Probulous wrote:ROFL, I love you Snarfs. No I am not the SK. Yes I was roleblocked. I guess my strategy of playing blues roles just like plain VT roles is finally paying off! Come on mafia, I dare you to block me again, am I a VT or am I blue If you have any questions about that post, let me know because no-one has commented on it. @VE, that is my only concern as well. The only motivation I can find is that it causes mayhem and he clearly felt he was never going to get lynched, so why not make the entire first day about him? It gives cover to other scum and I have no doubt that a scum marv would have the balls to pull it off (bad image I know). I also want to know why people are happy voting for him now and not yesterday. Well, I don't fully follow your reasoning for why an SK would not want to assert that there must not be an SK in the game, but that seems more like post-game discussion material.
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On June 27 2012 00:17 marvellosity wrote: His argument is thusly:
He's played this was as town before, so he can't be town! He's not played this way as scum, so I'm going to ignore that fact and say he must be scum!
Logic fail. Actually, my argument is thusly:
Premiss 1: He was recently mislynched as town Premiss 2: If he's town he'd be more worried about being mislynched because of (1) Premiss 3: He is not acting like he's worried about being mislynched Conclusion: Not town.
Premiss 1 is verifiable Premiss 2 is hard to dismiss on the basis that your mislynch contributed to us losing the game and I don't think that you like losing games. Premiss 3 is reflected in your "I'm actually playing a scummy town game" defense.
@risk.nuke: You say VE is the towniest town that ever towned. Marv says he's going to kill VE if you let him live. You say that marv should be left alive. What? Now that's a logic fail.
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On June 27 2012 01:33 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 01:30 Snarfs wrote:On June 27 2012 00:17 marvellosity wrote: His argument is thusly:
He's played this was as town before, so he can't be town! He's not played this way as scum, so I'm going to ignore that fact and say he must be scum!
Logic fail. Actually, my argument is thusly: Premiss 1: He was recently mislynched as town Premiss 2: If he's town he'd be more worried about being mislynched because of (1) Premiss 3: He is not acting like he's worried about being mislynched Conclusion: Not town. Premiss 1 is verifiable Premiss 2 is hard to dismiss on the basis that your mislynch contributed to us losing the game and I don't think that you like losing games. Premiss 3 is reflected in your "I'm actually playing a scummy town game" defense. @risk.nuke: You say VE is the towniest town that ever towned. Marv says he's going to kill VE if you let him live. You say that marv should be left alive. What? Now that's a logic fail. This game is fun. Premise 1: I never play scummily as scum Premise 2: I therefore never get lynched as scum Premise 3: Therefore I would not put myself in this position Premise 1 is verifiable Premise 2 is verifiable Premise 3 is reflected in this game. BUT, you dismiss the scumplaying marv argument, and only stick to the townplaying marv argument. Scum. But if nobody expects you to play scummily as scum, then that's the perfect scum play T_T.
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Well can you explain this part then:
- Why would town continue to be vague and confusing in their responses after seeing that people thought it was scummy?
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On June 27 2012 02:06 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 02:01 Snarfs wrote: Well can you explain this part then:
- Why would town continue to be vague and confusing in their responses after seeing that people thought it was scummy? And why would scum continue to be so vague and confusing when people thought it was scummy? To make themselves look more scummy? What? Fuck, it doesn't make sense from either perspective. The only explanation is that you were either scum not thinking or town not thinking.
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But you're going to kill VE and I think VE is town. No way I could sway you to shoot like a Mattchew or a risk.nuke?
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Oh, also want to mention that there's actually still a lot of time left. Day is extended by 6 hours if I'm not mistaken so we have like 10.5 hours.
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