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On June 23 2012 07:05 slOosh wrote:Hrrmph. Alright I'll just lay out my suspicions. I wanted to hit two birds with one stone by getting reads on other people via their opinions on the matter (since I have too many null reads). Dear townspeople: step it up. If you are blue then scum know it and will snipe you, and we think you are scum and mislynch you. That's the only explanation I can think of at the appalling lack of effort by most of town right now. Anyway, here are my Snarf concerns case. As I've looked over filters and thread, I feel like I have a good enough lead to make an actual case now.: Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:36 Snarfs wrote:
I don't think we should lynch marv today. He's been attacked the entire day and hasn't had a chance to do anything but react to other people's pressure. This is a terrible reason not to lynch someone. You don't lynch someone only if there is a scummier candidate or if he looks town. Snarf's reasoning why we shouldn't lynch marv is that he has been busy defending himself. He didn't say "there isn't enough here to lynch marv" - he said "I don't think we should lynch marv today", and this is before even the D1 halfway mark. The reason and the conclusion does not match. And when things like that don't match it indicates anti-town agenda.
I guess you're right. I should have said that I don't think marv should be the lynch currently as he hasn't had a chance to do anything but react to other people's pressure. People can react similarly to being constantly grilled whether they're town or scum and I want to give marv an opportunity to post where he isn't under constant pressure.
Show nested quote +
People I'd be fine lynching today, at this point: rastaban, MrZentor. I think rastaban is more likely scum so that's where my vote is going.
##Vote rastaban
Snarfs fricken doctored his own quotes in the post above me. The heck make sure you see this.
I cut out the parts of my quotes I thought were irrelevant... The part you just quoted does not show any of my reasoning and you asked for my reasoning. Please don't misrepresent me like this.
Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:36 Snarfs wrote:
I agree, this post is very scummy. Also notice how the general feeling of the second paragraph is that we should back off marv a bit so that we can get some better reads and not waste the entire 48 hours, but then the third paragraph is him coming right back to marv and pushing him? Now, granted he does appear to be trying to ask more "nicely", but why not try focusing on someone else if you feel too much time is being wasted on marv?
He isn't considering that rastaban could be bad town or scum - he makes it very clear that he originally thought he was scum, and now that I've called him out on why, he backtracks and says he is debating, when it is clear that his words say otherwise. Again, a mismatch of words and actions.
Where have I said that rastaban is most certainly scum? I said that he has made some scummy posts and that he was my strongest scum read. Then I proceeded to vote him and question how he came up with the posts that he did in order to determine if he came up with them from a town point of view or a scum mindset. I still have plenty of time to figure out if he's scum and I'm not afraid to change my vote if I change my mind and decide that someone else is more likely scum than rastaban.
Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 15:23 Snarfs wrote:I'm actually interested in hearing marv explain exactly what his little shitstorm has revealed: On June 22 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote:
Depends what you classify as a mistake, really. I'm not really unhappy with the conversation it's caused. I'll call it a mistake if I get lynched, which shouldn't happen Apparently it's given him some useful information and I wouldn't mind hearing what exactly he thinks that is. For now, I'll reserve judgement. He says here he will reserve judgement. However, this post precedes the quote that I used in point one. Again, his actions and words misalign. He reserves judgement on the basis of he wants to hear what marv's reads / conclusions from the scrap he had were. That's fine. Yet when he says we shouldn't lynch marv, it isn't because marv's findings were legit / useful. It's because he has been "under attack", and portrays marv as a victim. Contradictions.
I'm still not sure what to make sure of the whole marv / VE interaction and imo they could both very well be town going at each other. Neither seems afraid to speak their mind or be the centre of controversy, which is why I suggested giving marv some breathing room.
In case you missed it, marv actually rescinded his comment about gaining a bunch of useful information from the interaction. He said that if he could go back he actually would have just answered the question promptly from the beginning.
On top of that there's some blatant plagiarism, which is a cheap way to look like you are contributing without actually doing so. Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 00:00 slOosh wrote:I really liked Shraft's first post on catching rastaban's fluff, and I'm surprised no one else bothered to comment on it. There is general neutral fluff and allusions to games that don't really help us find scum here. Post in question: On June 22 2012 16:46 rastaban wrote:
Just caught up on what is the "haps", here are my thoughts.
First, I agree with the Millers claim day one, and policy lynching all Millers after today. In a game where they are self aware it is a huge boon for town. The benefits far out way the negative of less people with possible blue roles. First and most importantly it guarantees our checks. Detectives know any red checks from non-mafia get lynched, since sanity isn't an issue in this game. Any Mafia will always claim miller if checked and we don't force a day 1 reveal. It will cause a lot of confusion, it is best to eliminate this by forcing day one claims. It also forces Mafia's hand, if they want to claim they have to do it now before they are in too much water. This is hard for mafia to do, they don't want to be scrutinized and that is why they claim miller as a last resort. While it is argued that Millers make it easier to snipe blues it also makes our blues more effective. Look at Bang Bang where I, as a doctor, pushed strongly for a miller claim night one.
Second, the focus of Marv makes me think of karma after seeing him do it to Gonzaw in our last game together. We need to be careful with tunneling though, when you push someone so hard day1, they will often come across as scum no matter what since the only content you have is them trying to defend themselves against accusations. He could be scum but I just want to say that we need to be cautious, as I feel the case against him is a bit biased. Now his day 1 "meta" is to spam 1 liners so I personally wouldn't mind him getting lynched if there isn't a better candidate but I feel like there is too much discussion on him this early in our day. Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly.
That said I have a hard time getting anything from his filter right now. Some people analyze best when their quarry is under pressure but for me that introduces too many variables so I like to read posts where they aren't defending themselves. So marv would you mind answering the original question ( as leading as it may be) about what you feel are your tells, and second who do you feel is most likely scum? Says we have too much discussion on Marv. Concludes his first post by asking marv more questions. Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:36 Snarfs wrote:On June 22 2012 20:39 Shraft wrote:I'm not fine with lynching marvellosity at the moment. From what I gather, he is a good player and the case against him consists mainly of meta and him not responsing straight to Mattchew's question. I agree that it's a bit scummy, but not enough to warrant lynching a good player. I'd rather lynch someone like rastaban: On June 22 2012 16:46 rastaban wrote:
Just caught up on what is the "haps", here are my thoughts.
First, I agree with the Millers claim day one, and policy lynching all Millers after today. In a game where they are self aware it is a huge boon for town. The benefits far out way the negative of less people with possible blue roles. First and most importantly it guarantees our checks. Detectives know any red checks from non-mafia get lynched, since sanity isn't an issue in this game. Any Mafia will always claim miller if checked and we don't force a day 1 reveal. It will cause a lot of confusion, it is best to eliminate this by forcing day one claims. It also forces Mafia's hand, if they want to claim they have to do it now before they are in too much water. This is hard for mafia to do, they don't want to be scrutinized and that is why they claim miller as a last resort. While it is argued that Millers make it easier to snipe blues it also makes our blues more effective. Look at Bang Bang where I, as a doctor, pushed strongly for a miller claim night one.
Second, the focus of Marv makes me think of karma after seeing him do it to Gonzaw in our last game together. We need to be careful with tunneling though, when you push someone so hard day1, they will often come across as scum no matter what since the only content you have is them trying to defend themselves against accusations. He could be scum but I just want to say that we need to be cautious, as I feel the case against him is a bit biased. Now his day 1 "meta" is to spam 1 liners so I personally wouldn't mind him getting lynched if there isn't a better candidate but I feel like there is too much discussion on him this early in our day. Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly.
That said I have a hard time getting anything from his filter right now. Some people analyze best when their quarry is under pressure but for me that introduces too many variables so I like to read posts where they aren't defending themselves. So marv would you mind answering the original question ( as leading as it may be) about what you feel are your tells, and second who do you feel is most likely scum? His post a huge ball of fluff. The miller issue has already been argued to death, and everyone except Zephirdd agrees that millers should claim during D1. The second section consists of him arguing that it's dumb to tunnel players (marv in particular). In the end of it he says "Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly." which initially makes him appear pro-town, but in reality it's just bullshit. What do you mean with the band-wagoning on marv going quickly? He just had 3 votes on him by the time you were writing this (2 now) and the only guys who seems very intent on lynching him is VE and Probulous (risk's vote looked more like a pressure vote). I mainly see scum posting unnecessary advice like this where they encourage everyone to be calm and collected when voting and not to rush things, especially when there isn't even any real bandwagoning going on. I agree, this post is very scummy. Also notice how the general feeling of the second paragraph is that we should back off marv a bit so that we can get some better reads and not waste the entire 48 hours, but then the third paragraph is him coming right back to marv and pushing him? Now, granted he does appear to be trying to ask more "nicely", but why not try focusing on someone else if you feel too much time is being wasted on marv?
Blatant plagiarism is a bit of a stretch, slOosh. I went through the thread this morning and as I read posts I copied down my thoughts into a separate window. When I saw that you pointed out something similar, my first instinct wasn't to go back and erase what I'd already written.
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Snarfs, I'd like to clarify -
1) i think useful information is to be had from the furore that was caused
2) i'd still not prefer for it to have been the case, because actually i don't revel in stuff like this
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Well Marv seeing the light.
Prplhz, Im sorry you are right. Calling you useless was not nice and I apologise.
FrOm phone
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@slOosh I don't really like to talk about people who aren't my biggest scum read but since you ask, I'm null leaning town on Snarfs right now. Your initial case was based on an argument that was objectively wrong. Then you voted him without adding anything else. Snarfs case on rastaban seems sincere enough. rastaban is actually looking scummy. He was the biggest lurker in the thread and then when he was called out he made an ultra safe case against the second biggest lurker in the thread. I even already pointed out that this was not really a tell for risk.nuke because he did this in another game and encouraged him to change it if is town but rastaban disregarded this totally and just went for the guy anyway.
VisceraEyes, marvellosity
You two go sit in opposite corners staring into the wall for a little while. Seriously, stop it.
I don't really want any of you lynched today but that might change if you don't stop this. You have focused each other enough. I honestly don't even get what this marvellosity case is about, even after reading Probulous write-up. I think it looks pretty right when marvellosity says that you're just taking one little thing and then you're just tunneling him.
zentor is a better lynch than any of you because his short filter is full of things that will give you a headache, and because according to his previous games, that's not likely to change on day2. He is doing objectively scummy things such as making up bullshit excuses for not contributing that contradict each other, and stalling while promising that he'll do something later. His latest contribution was my filter in a spoiler. We might as well get rid of him early on unless we have a better lead. Do you really think that either of you is a better lynch than zentor?
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prplhz, that totally wasn't that hard was it?
##Fistpound
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Zentor's case/filter on you is a total non-entity.
Extremely fresh in my mind is the start of LV when BOTH Sinensis and BH both, independently, targeted grush57 as a committed target of their policy lynch.
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Yeah, I'd rather lynch risk.nuke than Zentor prplhz, what do you think of risk.nuke?
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On June 23 2012 07:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, I'd rather lynch risk.nuke than Zentor prplhz, what do you think of risk.nuke?
*nonaggression pact*
why risk over zentor?
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Meta. He's playing safe. risk.nuke HATES scum.
Nothing concrete...but when you're talking aobut guys with like 4 posts, you don't GET concrete stuff. *shrug*
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i'm gonna go take a look at pyp poison
risk got lynched easily day 3 or something as town and I wanna find out if it's because he did what he's doing now
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Mostly uncommunicative there, but he did post *some* things. Pretty hard to pin either of them down. I'd rather have risk than zentor with me day 2 though.
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Ugh...I hate policy lynches though. X(
Prplhz, I asked you what happened that you're so infuriated over. I mean, you've been on the receiving end of some pretty wicked tunnels from me, and you've never tried to PL me. :S WoF, aside from the self-voting, didn't even seem that bad. What's the beef?
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alright, but if we put me aside for a moment
would you rather have risk or zentor with you day 2 to smoke out scum?
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VE, you haven't weighed in on rastaban yet. What are your thoughts on him so far?
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On June 23 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote:
alright, but if we put me aside for a moment
would you rather have risk or zentor with you day 2 to smoke out scum?
I think risk.nuke's more likely to get passionate when he thinks he's caught a scum. Based on Zentor's recent play, he is more likely to just post filters and not actually tell us he thinks that person is scum.
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@marv
First of all, we weren't even talking about you so I don't know where the "put me aside for a moment" came from. Secondly, I've already answered the question you just asked me. You even questioned me on it - so what was the point of that post? I prefer a risk.nuke lynch to a Zentor lynch if we're talking about lynching lurkers.
@Snarfs
Yeah, I'm null on rasta. He looks pretty townie to me too, but to be fair I've only skimmed the cases on him. I'll go read them in earnest and let you know what I think.
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my point VE is that I don't understand why you'd want zentor with you day 2 rather than risk when the case on both is merely policy or meta anyways.
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Because I disagree with prplhz' assessment of Zentor's "standard" town-play. I think Zentor is capable of more than he's being given credit for and that's why prplhz wants him dead - not because he thinks he's scum. He wants him dead because he thinks he's going to be hard to read regardless of his alignment and wants to get him out of the way now before he becomes a problem (if I'm mistaken, let me know - that's just how it comes across to me). The meta-read I have on risk.nuke is that he's scum because he's not trying to find scum, so I'd rather lynch risk because UNLIKE Zentor, who's policy lynch is NOT based on the likelihood that he'll flip scum, my meta-read on risk.nuke IS based on likelihood that he'll flip scum.
If we're talking about lynching because they're both lurkers, they're no different. I'm indifferent. But you asked me about WHY I prefer one over the other. Hence my answer.
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Ok ok. Which game did Zentor show he was capable of more?
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What are you comparing risk.nuke's play to? I'd like to have a look myself, because from what I recall of my games with risk.nuke, he has come off quite scummy as town based on his small average number of contributions.
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EPT
