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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
I decided to disallow it on Bastard II because I'd rather not have players just having a safe claim backup. Hints and breadcumbs are part of the game, and simply having an encrypted code is too easy imo. I want to know other people's opinions. While it was useful on Pick Your Poison, I also felt as if we were "cheating" that game. So, allow or disallow encrypted codes? Maybe allow for certain games and disallow for others? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
One problem is deciding what would be allowed and not allowed. Is breadcrumbing a role or result using the last letter of every sentence any worse than just encrypting the message? | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
1: Balance It is a benefit for town, I don't think anyone would argue this, it is easy to find examples (the recent pick your poison game) and even the examples given above but it is very difficult to conceive of a way for mafia to benefit from it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be included but that if it is, then it does have an impact on balance. The host must then be sure to compensate or at least plan for this occurring. How much much it helps we don't know yet and it depends on game type. The more roles the more use it is, A game like igrok's current game would see almost no use for it while games with hidden votes and unique roles can make great use of it. 2: Exploits . Players that have a shared knowledge that is not open to everyone can relay messages via encryption. I will refer to the existing Bang Bang game though nothing applicable to the outcome. In this game nothing sensitive was discussed but it did bring up ways to exploit encryption. For those who didn't follow the game, a couple German players were able to encrypt some harmless chat regarding the euro games using the answer to German questions as the key. To expand it further, say I know your email address, what if I make that the key and relay messages that way? It would be little different from just emailing you the data but still not violate anything. If it is allowed, then we would need a very specific set of rules to govern what is and isn't allowed for its use to keep it form being exploited. I posted a line of encryption in that game days before I died, and yet no one even questioned it. It was a link to my spreadsheet in case I was shot during the day, but it could have been something else relayed to someone or tied to . If people want to cheat there are far easier ways to do that, so this isn't about cheating, but exploiting allowed loopholes to gain something that wasn't intended like a poor mans masonry or confirmed roles or locked in voting lists. Now all the benefits it provides, that I can tell, are easily accomplished with PMs. As such I think it should be considered the same as PMs. Allowed in PM games and not in Non PMs or just removed all together. It is possible to create a functioning rule set to make it still viable but I think it just needlessly complicates things. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
We probably need some new rules for these kind of things in general: Like a restriction to "no links, no other language than english etc." | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Encryption isn't the same as breadcrumbing because it's much easier to fake a breadcrumb or figure it out. Besides, how often does breadcrumbing actually come in handy? The most obvious situation is when you have a dispute as to whether someone vigi shot another player. But how often do you see a counterclaim in that situation? Almost never. A more commonly used breadcrumb is an information role breadcrumbing results. But usually the results aren't found. If they are found, they're usually obvious enough that the mafia is more likely to shoot the player, so that provides a strong balancing force. On the other hand (to take encryption to the extreme), town could simply have everyone make an encrypted post every cycle and all of the blues could give their night actions while everyone else makes up garbage. When a blue dies, the player holding the encryption key posts it. Then it wouldn't tell the mafia who to hit, unless they happened to be the player with the encryption key for one of the blues. On June 20 2012 00:35 supersoft wrote: what about talking in a different language... I mean as long as I write correctly, google-translator helps, but what if I talk to toad in a dialect that google-translator doesnt know... We probably need some new rules for these kind of things in general: Like a restriction to "no links, no other language than english etc." I can put it in the OP if we feel it is necessary. I would treat talking in a language other than English the same as I would encryption. | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 20 2012 00:35 supersoft wrote: what about talking in a different language... I mean as long as I write correctly, google-translator helps, but what if I talk to toad in a dialect that google-translator doesnt know... We probably need some new rules for these kind of things in general: Like a restriction to "no links, no other language than english etc." I believe TL commandment 7 covers that, though small bits are often allowed so having it explicitly stated is probably a good idea. I like the no links one, as I had thought about posting a link to a blank spreadsheet and then I could change the information on it as time went along. I could put up information right before the day post then remove it quickly if I didn't die, Basically replicating the "Will" role. Obviously if I was dead then I shouldn't change it any more as that pretty obviously falls under the no cheating rule at that point. But while still alive I could change what I wanted without violating any rules that I know of. Best not to use external links at all. The worst thing is that all of these things push us further away from scum hunting and instead to start relying on gimmicks and tricks to win, they are like the 6pool and 2 rax of mafia. EDIT: @Qatol, I agree 100% as I love breadcrumbs, riddles, clues and the like as they require effort and there is no assurance of who will figure it out. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 20 2012 01:04 Qatol wrote: Changing content linked by a post is the same as editing that post. That one is covered pretty clearly by the "no editing" rule (if not by words alone, then certainly by spirit). Good to know, as I hadn't thought of it that way, though it makes sense. Probably because I usually keep a spreadsheet of my current reads on people, so it evolves as the game progresses on google docs. If I wanted to share, I would now just make snapshot copies and share them so I didn't violate the no edit rule. That seems fine to me and I would hate to lose outside links like Chezinu's videos  | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Balance-wise, it's strong for town, undoubtedly. I do think the metagame could adapt to it from the scum side though. The big issue with it is that it's simply not fun to play against as scum. Half the fun of being scum is chortling gleefully while thinking up crazy claims and plans. This shits all over that. So for game spirit reasons, I wouldn't mind it being globally disallowed. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
On June 20 2012 00:49 rastaban wrote: I believe TL commandment 7 covers that, though small bits are often allowed so having it explicitly stated is probably a good idea. a lot of these commandments don't really apply for mafiagames. Since we're not acting as ourselves but rather as fictional charakters. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Sure if you talk german only that's an issue but noone is doing that. Also it pretty much never has anything to do with the game we're in, it's mostly reaction fishing :p It's funny to talk german sometimes but that's basicly it. Sad thing Plexa isn't allowing that German-only mafia because he fears that if he allows one german thread everyone and their mother wants to have a one-time-only chance to make a thread in another language and we're having a shitton of threads in different languages. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
YO! lol. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
 Btw ich fand das "lolol verarscht, hab nur versucht die amis dazu zu bringen 'Ä' in der Zeichentabelle zu finden :p" aber ziemlich witzig. Mal ganz davon abgesehen wie alle immer ausrausten wenn da 2 zeilen stehen die sie nicht verstehen. 3 Seiten text (normal halt wenn ich mafia spiele), man added 2 Zeilen die kein schwein versteht außer nen paar ausgewählte leute und insta-shitstorm :p | ||
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On June 20 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah I also think as long as you keep the main post english and add like 2 lines of german that shouldn't be an issue with TL commandments either, should it? Sure if you talk german only that's an issue but noone is doing that. Also it pretty much never has anything to do with the game we're in, it's mostly reaction fishing :p (...) I think it is great when German fans end their posts with a line of German praise when Socke dominates another Korean, but should it be allowed at all in mafia games? I don't have a strong opinion either way but it would be nice to have an official stance on it is. I really wanted to do this last game. I claim A Red Zombie Turncoat | ||
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Erandorr
2283 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:14 rastaban wrote: I think it is great when German fans end their posts with a line of German praise when Socke dominates another Korean, but should it be allowed at all in mafia games? I don't have a strong opinion either way but it would be nice to know what the official stance on it is. I really wanted to do this last game. I claim A Red Zombie Turncoat Just policy lynch all Germans | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
I'd rather win a game by expectional analysis rather than trying to meta-game the host in figuring out the setup, or using breadcrumbs/encryptions, or trying to come up with game-breaking ways of using actions. I mean sure, of course there are certain ways of using actions that are more optimal than others, but for me even more fun than finding the "optimal settings/build" to win the game, is to beat the game from a sub-optimal perspective. Much more challenge, requires more skill, and teaches one more. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3575 Posts
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