Bang Bang Mafia 2
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marvellosity
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Very much still /in | ||
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On June 07 2012 00:56 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll sit out for Caller...out of RESPECT. er, no you won't | ||
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On June 09 2012 05:50 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh, and due to the recent popularity of Policy Lynch thread, I'm going to be making a concentrated effort to play in a sane and coherent manner as to not incur any undue policy lynches. O.O Only takes one of us to shoot you sweetheart | ||
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On June 12 2012 00:04 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm happy with the game as written. I don't forsee the days lasting very long. Marvel, are you going to help me find and eliminate scum? Naturally. And as a token of my love I won't shoot you at the start of day 1. | ||
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On June 12 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote: the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish. Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not. | ||
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On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote: @gonzaw I'm surprised you're asking millers to claim and then shoot day 1 when it's just as good to have millers claim day 1 and then you yourself volunteer to shoot day 1. Since you yourself did not volunteer immediately to shoot on day 1, I was wondering if you'd like to start us off by shooting on day 1. In this game, to find 3 out of the 4 mafia, I feel like it's pretty easy. We just force the person we think is the most suspicious to shoot the person THEY think is most suspicious. If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. The only anti-town that gets out of this is the GF and the SK but they should be easy to narrow down when we combine this method with regular analysis. If they can't shoot, then they are either mafia or blue. In terms of blue roles, I actually don't think they matter that much this game and I'd totally be ok with any blue role that gets suspected and put on the spot to shoot to just claim. RB is nerfed this game to only be able to roleblock the same person on every other night so that means mafia can't just nilly willy claim blue and then when they don't die to mafia gunfire for a few days, get off scott free. So basically it goes discussion--->decide who is "most suspicious"--->force them to shoot who THEY think is most suspicious--->if they can't shoot, they will be forced to claim--->we then decide if the claim is valid or not--->shoot if we don't think the claim is valid. Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this. | ||
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On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. If it isn't that big of a deal why did you make a really big post justifying it to yourself? | ||
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On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading. Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. | ||
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To toad: I agree totally with the mentality and actually came back to the thread to make an EBWOP about it. A townie miller would be well aware that claiming miller would arise suspicion and discussion. VE was a townie miller claiming day 1 recently and he openly admitted that he would be scrutinised for it. I don't see the townie mentality for multiple times casting suspicion on anyone wanting to think about the claim. He very specifically says there are no drawbacks in his claim post. No, townie miller would know that was a drawback and be upfront about it. | ||
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You admit 'and obviously under quite scrutiny like he's under now'. It's precisely his attitude towards that that is damning. | ||
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On June 12 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: I don't find him suspicious mostly because of the claim itself (I've never seen scum fake-claim Miller in my whole life, and I doubt I will). We can force him to shoot and have trackers/watchers/cops (not all of them at the same time of course) on him to determine if he's GF or not. As in, we force him to shoot someone of our (town) liking, with voting and shit, not just someone he randomly wants to shoot (like he says he'll shoot Toad). Of course he'll have to follow this or we'll just shoot him the next day for being a scummy scum/rogue. If he's really GF he'll be alive for quite a while (and obviously under quite scrutiny like he's under now) so I doubt he can get away with it (again, like I said in my other Miller post). For someone who likes his setup speculation this is some weak shit. We have no idea what roles we have and if they can come close to confirming anything. Watchers doesn't even make sense. Scum have 1 KP and they'd send their GF? Doesn't make sense either, what does a tracker do. Cop takes forever to confirm sanity and he can't keep checking RoL. Towns very rarely lynch mafia day 1 so forcing him to do anything is probably going to lead to a townie death regardless and will confirm nothing of his alignment. Anyway guys, RoL, gonzaw... | ||
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On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote: Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later We must be in different games bro | ||
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On June 12 2012 10:57 talismania wrote: Fair point, but if people don't want to wade through walls of shit, then we don't have to make a case. It can be a list of four names, simply. Maybe one sentence for why each is scum. So effectively you want townie to behave like townies would anyway and scum to appear more townlike than they'd appear otherwise Nice | ||
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Er... in the one game I've played with self-aware millers (maybe a whole fucking 2!). SO CONCLUSIVE DUDES. There are also NO CASES despite the fact THERE IS A CASE. diediedie | ||
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To the rest of town: anyway, find below the case against RoL below. Now, the point isn't so much whether you have to agree with all of it, but it is nonetheless a case, consisting of analysis of content of posts, behaviour, and mentality. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. On June 12 2012 10:06 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah I totally agree here. That claim was really weird and as mentioned I wasn't even sure if it was a claim or a joke along the lines "well might as well claim miller" just to say a couple posts "...lol if I actually were a miller". The one thing that got to my attention the most was obviously the last part you quoted because he was jumping down my very own throat for saying that claim is stupid and he should have claimed on the deadline or d1. Here's the thing, he said himself the only downside to this (besides helping mafia bluesnipe, which he totally ignores although mentioned by me two times and by kita once) is idiots calling him suspicious on that one and he forsaw people being "stupid". Again, this just makes no sense from a townie point of view. If he thinks I'm someone overanalyzing something, that's a fucking great towntell. Why is he willing to shoot me for that one. He's basicly calling me an incredible paranoid townie that keeps overthinkin stuff a lot and concludes in shooting me. That's not making sense at all. On June 12 2012 10:11 marvellosity wrote: Fairly likely he'd be GF yea. To toad: I agree totally with the mentality and actually came back to the thread to make an EBWOP about it. A townie miller would be well aware that claiming miller would arise suspicion and discussion. VE was a townie miller claiming day 1 recently and he openly admitted that he would be scrutinised for it. I don't see the townie mentality for multiple times casting suspicion on anyone wanting to think about the claim. He very specifically says there are no drawbacks in his claim post. No, townie miller would know that was a drawback and be upfront about it. On June 12 2012 10:13 marvellosity wrote: Effectively he's saying anyone suspecting him is probably mafia. No no no no no. NOT townie mentality. Trying to deflect attention scum mentality. This is gonzaw's follow-up post: On June 12 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: I don't find him suspicious mostly because of the claim itself (I've never seen scum fake-claim Miller in my whole life, and I doubt I will). We can force him to shoot and have trackers/watchers/cops (not all of them at the same time of course) on him to determine if he's GF or not. As in, we force him to shoot someone of our (town) liking, with voting and shit, not just someone he randomly wants to shoot (like he says he'll shoot Toad). Of course he'll have to follow this or we'll just shoot him the next day for being a scummy scum/rogue. If he's really GF he'll be alive for quite a while (and obviously under quite scrutiny like he's under now) so I doubt he can get away with it (again, like I said in my other Miller post). gonzaw completely ignores anything to do with the behaviour, content and mentality, because he has 'never seen scum fake-claim miller in his whole life'. His speculation on how to confirm or otherwise RoL is equally weak, as I note here: On June 12 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote: For someone who likes his setup speculation this is some weak shit. We have no idea what roles we have and if they can come close to confirming anything. Watchers doesn't even make sense. Scum have 1 KP and they'd send their GF? Doesn't make sense either, what does a tracker do. Cop takes forever to confirm sanity and he can't keep checking RoL. Towns very rarely lynch mafia day 1 so forcing him to do anything is probably going to lead to a townie death regardless and will confirm nothing of his alignment. Anyway guys, RoL, gonzaw... On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote: The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). There is no analysis yet despite the fact there is analysis. On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote: I played 2 (I think? Or maybe it was just once) games with self-aware Millers on UG and there weren't any fake-claims either. And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented. For now I only have a few town reads, and a slight suspicion on Dirkzor for his "eagerness" to show people what to do or correct them but being absent since then. I already posted he fucked up by claiming right now. But at least he claimed, Miller claim >>>> no Miller claim, whether on N0 or D1 The only bad thing about doing so on N0 is that scum may shoot him....and that's not the end of the world or anything (again like I posted in my previous post wbg points out the fact that there are almost never self-aware millers for him to reference. gonzaw is forced to accept this and says he has played in at most 2, if not only 1, game with self-aware millers. So gonzaw ignores all the analysis of RoL's behaviour because he has played in at most 2 games where miller wasn't fake-claimed. He doesn't even bother actually looking at the content of the posts, and dismisses the case multiple times with "there haven't been analysis or cases yet". Yet his sole reason for dismissing was his 1 or 2 out of how many games he's played with self-aware millers. | ||
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On June 12 2012 12:42 gonzaw wrote: [ Yes basically that, and because of all the reasons I previously stated on why I think the real GF wouldn't actually claim Miller at all. Saying my "sole" reason for dismissing it is quite an exageration though, considering I've been talking about Miller claims, their benefits and likelihood since my first post or so since the game started. Yes, it is interesting, given your view on this. On June 12 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: I don't find him suspicious mostly because of the claim itself (I've never seen scum fake-claim Miller in my whole life, and I doubt I will). That seems to be your view, that it's practically impossible. Funny then, that your first major post is entirely about discussing millers and the possibilities of scum fake-claiming. + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote: Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1. If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). Okay people, if we have a Miller, do they claim tonight or tomorrow? If they claim tonight, and we have a cop the cop won't check them, but if they don't claim tonight there' s a chance the cop will. If they claim tonight however, there's a chance scum will shoot them because of their "semi-confirmed" status (i.e scum never fake-claim Miller, so someone claiming Miller is 80% telling the truth). Oh wait, here's the plan: Miller, as soon as D1 starts, claim and you'll be the one in charge of shooting on D1 My plan goes like this: First of all, a Miller claim will avoid a cop checking him subsequent nights. Second, the Miller can shoot at day, therefore we can use him to choose the D1 shot. Third, like said before the Miller is "semi-confirmed" because in average scum never fake-claim Miller, and they will most likely not do it today. Why? Because then the Godfather will be the one forced to fake-claim Since the plan is for the Miller to shoot on D1, and the only scum that can do so is the GF, then only him can fake-claim Miller (if any other scum claims Miller, they'll get instantly caught once they refuse to shoot). So, let's imagine the GF fake-claims Miller, what then? Then there is another Miller or there isn't: 1) There is another Miller claim: Then there will be a counterclaim; and one of them will basically be confirmed scum (the chances of 2 Millers is EXTREMELY low). We then let them shoot each other. If the real Miller is faster, great he'll shoot the GF and we'll live happily ever after. If the GF is faster, well then we can kill the GF the next day/night. 2) There is no other Miller claim: In this case, although we may take him as "confirmed" for a while, he'll be in the spotlight for quite a while. Not only that, we can make a tracker track him at night, that way we can catch him as GF. After we get rid of the GF, then catching the remaining scum will be easy if we all claim if we have a gun (and can shoot) or not. Those that claim they have a gun take turns in shooting each day (to actually confirm they have a gun) into the group that claimed they didn't have a gun (of course shooting those we think are actually scum from that group, not shooting our freaking blues >_>). So, if the GF claims Miller there is a high chance he'll get fucked, therefore I don't think he will. Therefore I think we can trust a Miller claim tomorrow, and in the worst case we'll get a tracker on him at N2. So people, this is the plan I was thinking of, do you agree or not?: To Miller:
To Town:
To Tracker the next night:
If we don't have any Millers it will be apparent soon (before the 24 hours or so) since everybody will post but there will be no claim. If that happens, then after the 24 or so hours normal VTs are allowed to shoot. The purpose of this plan is:
Of course this means everybody would follow the plan (those that have a gun and those that don't), so we are guaranteed to have some D1 time to discuss So people, what do you think? Observation: Maybe the SK can fake-claim Miller, since he can shoot at Day. However, the SK is forced to shoot at night, therefore a tracker on him WILL catch him. Also, since a "confirmed" Miller is bad reputation for scum, scum are likely to shoot the Miller claim, so the chances of scum shooting the SK will increase, blowing his cover once he survives the hit (and no medic claims his save). Basically, the SK fake-claiming Miller will let us/scum catch him sooner or later, and doing so to get the D1 shot (why would he want the D1 shot?) and a little confirmed status for a while isn't worth it for him. Observation2: There is a chance we don't have a tracker. In which case we can't confirm the Miller. First of all, the point is that scum don't know if we have a tracker either, so by having the GF fake-claim Miller they risk we actually having one. Second, even if we don't have a tracker, the GF will still be in the spotlight, because town will assume the tracker tracked him and got a "good" result (i.e that he didn't visit anyone), but the "Miller" claim will keep being alive throughout the whole game. This will mean that one day or the other the Miller-fake-claiming-Godfather will fall; so again it's not very convenient for him to do so That's an awful lot of effort to go to to explain something you think will never happen 'in your lifetime', don't you think? | ||
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On June 12 2012 15:20 gonzaw wrote: He tried to act like a smartass doing the whole "Oh geez if you think no mafia would fake-claim miller... then you make quite an effort in posting your thoughts about the Miller wouldn't you think?" thing and he was indeed being needlessly aggressive, even before in the game. Discrediting arguments with bad logic. It's not being smartass. I consider it extremely odd to make a 3-page long post outlining 20 different scenarios with tonnes of formatting which must have taken you close to an hour, when it's a scenario you never believe has occurred, will occur, or will ever occur. How is that NOT odd? Let's kill gonzaw. | ||
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On June 12 2012 15:27 gonzaw wrote: You are just acting like those self-centered vets that try to do the bare minimum in a game and act all mighty and shit. So get the fuck down to earth and act normal. The veneer starts to fall. Sheth had a meta read on gonzaw as scum in Liar because of gonzaw's aggressiveness. gonzaw tries to avoid it this game, but as people start to suspect him his facade crumbles. | ||
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gonzaw's response to pressure is to attack the person and not the argument. | ||
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On June 12 2012 17:17 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Also this post is actually kinda bad and I'm surprised I'm the only one with a problem with it. Kita do you realize that the people shooting will most likely be townies? You're advocating for the death of lots of greens on the chance that you catch the gf or sk. I agree we need accountability but shooting people who step out of line like that isn't going to work. I made a post before this about holding ourselves accountable with I'll just repost here now: Discussion is the key. Perhaps that sounds a bit kumbaya, but you have to realize that if you shoot people just because they made an unauthorized shot you're probably going to hit a disgruntled townie. I'd also be interested in seeing you post more kita. Well the difference is, Meapak, that yours was a tad wishy washy. The sentiment behind kitaman's post is clear. If town signals its ABSOLUTE INTENT to punish with the highest form of punishment, then it discourages rogue shooters. I'm fairly sure kita recognises your 'concerns', but the point is it discourages an anti-town mode of doing things. If you explicitly say, 'well, except in this case, or the result is this' then you weaken the sentiment. No? | ||
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On June 11 2012 14:52 payl wrote: Doctor - "You can be Sane, Insane, Paranoid or Weak." Btw, hi. why you post so much?! | ||
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On June 12 2012 21:30 Toadesstern wrote: what's an insane, paranoid or weak doctor? Never played with those roles oO On June 11 2012 15:19 Ace wrote: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor | ||
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I wouldn't mind killing him really if I didn't wanna shoot gonzaw so much | ||
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On June 08 2012 17:39 Dirkzor wrote: Problems occuring during games when someone brings up policy lynching is that not everyone is for or against it which renders the idea of a policy lynch meaningless. If you can't get everyone on board, or at least say they are willing to policy lynch, scum (and townies aswell) won't feel the pressure to follow the rules set by the policy. So it all ebs out into an empty threat. I usually always support any sort of policy in the start just to give the policy more power. It's this I'm talking about. In this game telling everyone they get killed if they shoot willy-nilly is a pretty decent policy. But as you note yourself it "ebs out into an empty threat" if not everyone agrees. MZ saying that they are likely to be townies is how a pretty good policy ebbs away. Because it just opens the door more to people shooting unilaterally, which was the case less before MZ made his post. Despite the fact that what was in MZ's post should be obvious enough to not need to be stated. | ||
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On June 12 2012 22:26 Dirkzor wrote: @Marv: You still think RoL is scum after what happened? + Show Spoiler [referance] + On June 12 2012 10:11 marvellosity wrote: Fairly likely he'd be GF yea. To toad: I agree totally with the mentality and actually came back to the thread to make an EBWOP about it. A townie miller would be well aware that claiming miller would arise suspicion and discussion. VE was a townie miller claiming day 1 recently and he openly admitted that he would be scrutinised for it. I don't see the townie mentality for multiple times casting suspicion on anyone wanting to think about the claim. He very specifically says there are no drawbacks in his claim post. No, townie miller would know that was a drawback and be upfront about it. You mean his gun apparently being taken away? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 12:18 marvellosity wrote: Because I'm so nice gonzaw, I'm just going to lay out a post for other people to read instead of tunnelling you. And I will not be unilaterally shooting you. To the rest of town: anyway, find below the case against RoL below. Now, the point isn't so much whether you have to agree with all of it, but it is nonetheless a case, consisting of analysis of content of posts, behaviour, and mentality. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. On June 12 2012 10:06 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah I totally agree here. That claim was really weird and as mentioned I wasn't even sure if it was a claim or a joke along the lines "well might as well claim miller" just to say a couple posts "...lol if I actually were a miller". The one thing that got to my attention the most was obviously the last part you quoted because he was jumping down my very own throat for saying that claim is stupid and he should have claimed on the deadline or d1. Here's the thing, he said himself the only downside to this (besides helping mafia bluesnipe, which he totally ignores although mentioned by me two times and by kita once) is idiots calling him suspicious on that one and he forsaw people being "stupid". Again, this just makes no sense from a townie point of view. If he thinks I'm someone overanalyzing something, that's a fucking great towntell. Why is he willing to shoot me for that one. He's basicly calling me an incredible paranoid townie that keeps overthinkin stuff a lot and concludes in shooting me. That's not making sense at all. On June 12 2012 10:11 marvellosity wrote: Fairly likely he'd be GF yea. To toad: I agree totally with the mentality and actually came back to the thread to make an EBWOP about it. A townie miller would be well aware that claiming miller would arise suspicion and discussion. VE was a townie miller claiming day 1 recently and he openly admitted that he would be scrutinised for it. I don't see the townie mentality for multiple times casting suspicion on anyone wanting to think about the claim. He very specifically says there are no drawbacks in his claim post. No, townie miller would know that was a drawback and be upfront about it. On June 12 2012 10:13 marvellosity wrote: Effectively he's saying anyone suspecting him is probably mafia. No no no no no. NOT townie mentality. Trying to deflect attention scum mentality. This is gonzaw's follow-up post: gonzaw completely ignores anything to do with the behaviour, content and mentality, because he has 'never seen scum fake-claim miller in his whole life'. His speculation on how to confirm or otherwise RoL is equally weak, as I note here: There is no analysis yet despite the fact there is analysis. wbg points out the fact that there are almost never self-aware millers for him to reference. gonzaw is forced to accept this and says he has played in at most 2, if not only 1, game with self-aware millers. So gonzaw ignores all the analysis of RoL's behaviour because he has played in at most 2 games where miller wasn't fake-claimed. He doesn't even bother actually looking at the content of the posts, and dismisses the case multiple times with "there haven't been analysis or cases yet". Yet his sole reason for dismissing was his 1 or 2 out of how many games he's played with self-aware millers. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 19:31 marvellosity wrote: Discrediting arguments with bad logic. It's not being smartass. I consider it extremely odd to make a 3-page long post outlining 20 different scenarios with tonnes of formatting which must have taken you close to an hour, when it's a scenario you never believe has occurred, will occur, or will ever occur. How is that NOT odd? Let's kill gonzaw. In addition he more than once attacks the accuser rather than arguments (calls me aggressive, tells wbg he is SK). He posts numerous times that plan discussion is 'alignment null' but that's ALL he's done, despite the fact he is under suspicion. In other words he keeps making irrelevant posts and the sum total of his scumhunting is that he finds me and Cephiro (i think) a bit suspicious. High post count. No content. omgus-y. He says he is too lazy to filter and make reads and analysis but he's perfectly fine making really longwinded posts about plans and setup speculation. | ||
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Doesn't say much either way to me. It does nothing to say he is innocent because if he is not he could just have bullshitted that. Basically everything about the hit/prot/gun-taking opens up inpenetrable wifom. | ||
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Actually in his case I don't really disagree in generalities because he does similar things as town. The nub of the matter is that it is ALL he does. I could quote several super-long posts where he does it. But says he is too lazy to filter and analyse. That's an inherent scummy contradiction. | ||
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I'm more than happy for him provide his own best representative of course. | ||
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Because clearly no-one else agreed, EVERYONE else wants the day to go on quite long. This had already been established. It seems evident that's the case. No point in scum pushing an alternative agenda that wouldn't be accepted by town. | ||
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why are you ok with that? | ||
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On June 13 2012 00:48 chaoser wrote: cause mafia can't shoot in the day unless they're the GF. I don't think gonzaw is a GF if he's mafia because in his first post he tries to push the responsibility of the first day's kill to the miller. But imagine this right. We're in a normal majority lynch game. We get enough votes to lynch that player. But there's a special function where a player can request mod-confirmation that he's EITHER gf/vt etc or goon/cop/medic. And that the way the mods confirmed that was by either killing or not killing the 2nd guy on the lynch list, who didn't have nearly as many votes as the scummy guy at the top. Rather just kill the guy who got all the lynch votes right? Given he has all the votes (or for this game, everyone thinks someone is likely scum) then he should just be lynched. Over complication. Someone is scum? Shoot them! | ||
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So just shoot him. See what I'm saying? | ||
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On June 13 2012 01:07 chaoser wrote: Given his posting, he's definitely not a blue since he keeps saying "I'll shoot if everyone wants me to, etc. etc.". He's basically pushing the issue off while trying to get town to focus on the SK (by talking about if RoL is it or WBG is it). If town bites on the SK bit and shoots one of them then day ends and he gets to leave another day, hopefully to disappear from the forefronts of our thoughts. If he was blue he's just ignore the issue of shooting because he can't shoot. He's definitely not a doctor since he starts asking about missed shots when, if he was, he would know about it (since RoL said he got shot). Given what you've written about him, do you think he's blue or mafia if he can't shoot? I mean, marv, you think he's mafia too, you can shoot him as well. Are you too scared to do it? Can't handle the responsibility? But if I had to be truthful and give my main reason for why I'm asking him to shoot me, it's because in this game, town gets to experience the rare pleasure of making and then watching that mafia squirm, which is a particular indulgence of mine that I don't get to experience much. To the underlined: made me chuckle, thank you To the bold: I very much want to shoot him. I want this day to come to a conclusion by me shooting him. There's a tonne of ppl who haven't been around today yet though, so I don't want to jump the gun. Forgive the pun. | ||
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On June 13 2012 03:20 wherebugsgo wrote: Nevermind on the supersoft bit. His most recent 2-3 posts make it far less likely. We should have Zentor shoot gonzaw. Very happy with this | ||
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On June 13 2012 03:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote: He claimed Miller on Night 1. Then in the morning he claimed he had his gun taken away. He needs to shoot. If he does, and nothing happens, then it means he either had his gun taken away, or he was lying about being a miller, same thing as what we were at. If he can shoot, then he lied about having his gun taken away, and I'd say he's scum then. The whole point of people claiming miller was to get them to shoot as soon as possible to confirm themselves. Then he claims he can't shoot anymore, and introduces the worry of there being a role that can take away our guns. There's no reason to make that lie as town. This is to make sure he's at least not lying about not having a gun. huh, this makes a lot of sense. | ||
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On June 13 2012 04:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: RoL already tried to shoot and it failed. With totally wrong formatting. Come on man. | ||
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Filter deconduo you idiots. | ||
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On June 13 2012 05:01 VisceraEyes wrote: What are your thoughts on Palmar marvel? And now that Ace has given us something to think about (Radfield "saving" Palmar,) what are your thoughts on Ace? Have you been drinking, wifey of mine? | ||
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I'm unwilling to excuse him on the basis that 'he always lurks' and 'he's never around' when this game was specifically advertised as fast-paced and 24h days. | ||
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RoL, shoot gonzaw please | ||
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On June 13 2012 06:15 payl wrote: [/blue][/b]Oops someone lied shoot him. I vote RoL for day 1 death, btw. you're not reading the thread. shoot gonzaw. | ||
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how's that? | ||
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Seriously look at it. Tell me how gonzaw thought scum would shoot supersoft. On June 13 2012 07:08 gonzaw wrote: [/b]I thought scum would try to shoot supersoft last night, so I checked him hoping to get a green check if he died (thus confirm me as Sane if I was). | ||
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On June 13 2012 08:19 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: why do I get the feeling that people like zentor and payl are avoiding the thread to avoid being asked to shoot. payl was very much here and then left without commenting on anything important. Guys, I really want to shoot gonzaw. Everything I've read again makes me believe he's scum. Can I do it or am i going to get shouted at | ||
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I'm trying to watch starcraft but i keep coming back and f5ing goddamnit | ||
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On June 13 2012 12:07 MrZentor wrote: I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim. The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate. You've not seen gonzaw play scum, have you? And stop saying what scum do and don't do or say. It's crap. | ||
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On June 13 2012 21:00 Dirkzor wrote: But then why are you up for replacement while kenpachi is not? Doesn't make sense to me... O_o On June 13 2012 09:00 Ace wrote: risk.nuke and wherebugsgo need to be replaced out of the game. If anyone wants to replace in PM me immediately ? | ||
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On June 13 2012 23:50 MrZentor wrote: If what Toad says is true, then it isn't really THAT anti town to shoot a few minutes into the day, because then we'll basically have a 48 hour night. Right? you want the information from the night's events when discussing during the day | ||
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Also comment on gonzaw's case of rastaban flipflopping and rastaban's defence of it Also I don't know about Radfield or Palmar but Ace is a goner | ||
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On June 14 2012 01:11 Toadesstern wrote: About the mason thing: Screw that I don't need a mason when I got Supersoft and we can just speak german to pseudo-mason :p Or even better, ask a question in german, the answer is the key to unlock an encrypted text like this: Was ist der Plural von Apfel? + Show Spoiler [encrypted] + ##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ ZZZZZ ITGAH BJTVG GAKRT GCFJU UXUPO UWAGE XUFHV DIHAA NCJTW WMMVO RUWAV KJCNF AQASM AIMHG GFISQ LHJNV IVBTE CAKKP GCHVB SNVJK BMEIV JVJTD APUQI BWVDA ANWLM JKIIO VATOO HFAXE LFHCI CILLM QGMKS HSTNQ GCSNK LEAQV XTMFE GAUDC LRBSV FHURH BGBWG OPGOJ DSOSF RERXV FLWVU XJTJA JMNHF RLWOA EQHNE AWJWG VHMKM XAAXX EFDJV KWSAR CICDI DCRDI LDTGM XVFLV OTJEP QUBSG VGQEG OMNLB LLJXI TVAJS WHEMG RLPBU XLMIJ HJTPR RAMEU DNOML JAUNI OBVQU XDXJJ UHKUR LVHMT BOLXK SELQM IFJVE ARPTP BBOIV XMJCM AWFIU QXFSD TJWSL IEODD MFMTW MLWIU QNNWJ WXVRO GSGUH LHQKX INUMP TTJBC DRIDR RLQHK XGUGX NKFWD LVHLB KGETN GFBCB XUUPE PKFNX IMHIF KAWUO HVZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message I'm shooting you when I next can | ||
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what's the fuss? can we stop now? | ||
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he turns up during the shoot-gonzaw fiasco only to call RoL a liar because payl couldn't read the thread. He also completely ignores what's going on in the thread at the time despite posting several times. Now the typical 'easy' case against Zentor. I could make a case against Zentor with my eyes closed and my hands tied behind my back. | ||
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On June 14 2012 21:58 Toadesstern wrote: what are you talking about? The part when I said "now I want to shoot [myself]" ? We apparently have 2 people who'd like to see me dead for whatever reason (SuperSoft + RoL) so I might as well just prove I'm able to shoot someone, hit mafia and make them stop talking about me while guys like Payle and Zentor are running around. I'm actually not sure about rastaban at all. I'd rather not shoot him today. 2 people isn't very many. Like I said it's not all about you. You get people to stop talking about you by finding scum and looking pro-town, not by shooting people for god's sake. | ||
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don't post again unless it's not about you. | ||
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On June 15 2012 03:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I agree that zentor may be an "easy case" but why does that make him a bad lynch? As I've stated before, I think payl needs to die as well, I just don't want to see people making excuses like this about zentor. This wasn't the point, the post was about payl. | ||
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On June 15 2012 04:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I absolutely hate when people say shit like this. Playing the "I always look scummy" card is the same as the "noob" card in my mind. And marv, would you be happy if we had payl shoot zentor or vice versa? Zentor shoot payl ideally. The fact that payl appeared during the height of the gonzaw 'frenzy', posted irrelevantly 3 times and disappeared, is shocking. | ||
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On June 13 2012 10:50 kitaman27 wrote: I was writing up a nice long post about how gonzaw should be the last person we should shoot and I got ninja'd by like 3 min. -_- Why shoot the claimed cop day one when he could either tie up the roleblocker in a watcher setup, take a night hit, or provide an additional check. You can all yell at me for complaining after the flip, but that's a poor decision. I'll stop by tomorrow evening before the night post with thoughts for day two. *searches for thoughts* *finds none* :< | ||
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kitaman. totally useless? yes? no? | ||
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On June 14 2012 19:08 supersoft wrote: wbg is out. payl refuses to communicate. i'll shoot toad or payl after their claims shoot him yourself | ||
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why do you think toad is so scummy? | ||
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payl, kita and someone else | ||
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On June 15 2012 06:15 marvellosity wrote: heh, ok why do you think toad is so scummy? answer this supersoft | ||
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supersoft is either scum or a total douchebag who needs to be shot anyway any takers? | ||
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see? | ||
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you still need to tell me why you think toad is scum so much | ||
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that's a terrible reason. it's not like it's endgame already | ||
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Dirkzor: I don't know. I find his posts reasonably understandable this game which normally indicates a town-tell to me for him. If he were scum he could have been manipulating me on RoL/gonzaw, but I can't really tell. | ||
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On June 16 2012 00:11 MrZentor wrote: Toad, Payl, and Rastaban are extremely suspicious. I think we should have Rastaban shoot Toad, but I would also be willing to shoot any one of them to prove I have a gun. I know it seems like I'm obsessed with Toad right now, but I see no mention from you in your filter of ANY suspicions of Toad. So explain. | ||
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On June 16 2012 00:35 MrZentor wrote: A lot of people have talked about their suspicions of toad and their reasons. He seems like the best target right now. If I were to tell you why Toad is mafia, I'd be copying a bunch of other people. Talis's comments about rastaban and me say nothing about our alignment, as it's just a bunch of WIFOM. Tell me in your own words. Even if it means drawing on other people's ideas. Gogo. | ||
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adds toad to his really scummy list with no reasoning or prior thoughts that he was scummy gives some weak as shit sauce when pressed for explanation constantly talks about what scum do and don't think. it's a mindset thing. | ||
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On June 16 2012 08:12 layabout wrote: You are about to make a game changing post. And I am about to sleep. Right now though very little is happening. Expect for, you know, the universe expanding and shit. It's highly unlikely both these statements are true | ||
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1) I don't really get a scumread from MZ's filter 2) we know that gf would likely try to take a couple of shots during the day to eliminate townies 3) MZ doesn't seem like that super-impulsive sort I can't quite reconcile all 3 of these things | ||
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He'll go something like "omgzzz but supersoft did random shot too!" yea, but he didn't cancel out a whole day's discussion first. very different. | ||
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On June 17 2012 04:32 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I shot at like 2, I was playing LoL (check my match history if you don't believe me) and checked the thread, I had been stewing on it all day and just said fuck it and shot. And let's back this out a bit, why on earth should I have waited for your opinion? The one person I would have listened to was probably marvl and he had previously called for supersoft's death. You mentioned occam's razor. Guess what? Supersoft being gf IS the right answer via occam's razor. Don't tell me I'm just supposed to blindly believe that the guy who coincidentally was green checked is able to make a last minute switch to magically hit scum. He's been pressuring one set of suspects but at the last minute switches course and just happens to hit scum. And then you people are all going on about how "confirmed" he is. It was too convenient, simplest answer as to what's wrong? He's gf looking to win the game. I guess I make a really attractive miss shot, that's the only reason I can come up with for your sudden interest in the game kita. hey, don't bring me into this I've been disgracefully flippant since I fucked up on gonzaw. I wasn't just gonna shoot supersoft or ANYONE 2 posts into the day though. if that's how you felt about him why not bring it up? How would he get away with it? kita pretty much established earlier I believe that scum can't possibly have more than one gf for balance reasons so scum COULD NOT SHOOT this day, if what you believed about supersoft was correct. Therefore how could he even get away with it? Even if it's what you firmly believed, you could either discuss it or wait for much later in the day after a shit-tonne of discussion. You're either a terri, terribad townie or you're scum. I do not believe you're a terribad townie. | ||
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well done RoL for shooting. nice thing to come back to. only wish I'd got there first. do we look into those who were saying that there was likely not a gf now guys? | ||
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On June 17 2012 13:21 MrZentor wrote: I guess it's possible that there's a godfather, but I doubt he would do something as obviously scummy as shooting a confirmed townsperson a few minutes into the day. I still don't know if you are scum or town. BUT LET THIS BE A LESSON TO YOU. Stop fucking guessing what scum do and do not bloody do. Mostly it doesn't work. Especially for you. Your whole game has been full of "I don't think scum would/would not do this or that". All I think is "well why not?" | ||
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On June 17 2012 14:04 kitaman27 wrote: Are you going to stop reading the thread until I'm lynched now? also ROFL | ||
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On June 17 2012 19:33 Dirkzor wrote: Kita also didnt seem in any way upset about how the day ended with no discussion: I noticed this one too. Interesting stuff | ||
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what are the numbers/situation we're in? I literally have no idea :/ | ||
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damnit, i have seriously few townreads was hoping to do this by elimination somewhat | ||
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On June 18 2012 01:44 kitaman27 wrote: That sounds familiar! Oh right, it was the same logic Meapak was using to tell me I'm scum. He must be right then. He mentioned Wiggles too. Lets kill him as well. The only time I was absent was when my internet was down and when I was ninja'd and didn't want to post during the night cycle. There was no need to make a post when Meapak was clearly the person to go after yesterday. Nope, in fact I was quite happy Meapak was shot before Rambo came in randomly shooting someone else These arguments aren't even refutations, especially 1 and 2. I don't know if you're scum or not, but saying 'a scum used this logic' does nothing to discredit the logic itself necessarily. And your flippancy on Wiggles is irrelevant. 'There was no need to make a post' is also weak try harder plz love | ||
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epic. I take full credit naturally. :/ Literally no idea how we won. gonzaw: stop spamming and tell me quite clearly how endgame should have happened please :D | ||
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Why couldn't Zealos shoot in that day in between? Sorry for newb questions | ||
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