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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
If mafia get RB and town get CPR: Townie does not shoot anyways. if mafia does not RB him, next morning CPR goes "hey! i wasent RBed last night!" = dead scum. If mafia get CPR and town gets RB, then mafias best power is constatly roleblocked = good for us. the issue is if mafia is suposed to pick CPR, but then grabs something else, and lets his buddy down the line grab it... | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:47 hiro protagonist wrote: If mafia get RB and town get CPR: Townie does not shoot anyways. if mafia does not RB him, next morning CPR goes "hey! i wasent RBed last night!" = dead scum. If mafia get CPR and town gets RB, then mafias best power is constatly roleblocked = good for us. the issue is if mafia is suposed to pick CPR, but then grabs something else, and lets his buddy down the line grab it... that's why I assigned #1 AND #2 to pick CPR as a fool safety and we don't have that problem. The CPR shoots the RB (at least) the first night and if we force the RB to make what we want to to do, not by teling him what to do but by forcing him to do it or he's toast. That sounds awesome to me. Only way this could go wrong is a no-lynch or a mafia ending up with #1 draft in which case any plan to deny mafia the strongest role would fail, because they can simply pick it. | ||
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:52 Toadesstern wrote: that's why I assigned #1 AND #2 to pick CPR as a fool safety and we don't have that problem. The CPR shoots the RB (at least) the first night and if we force the RB to make what we want to to do, not by teling him what to do but by forcing him to do it or he's toast. That sounds awesome to me. Only way this could go wrong is a no-lynch or a mafia ending up with #1 draft in which case any plan to deny mafia the strongest role would fail, because they can simply pick it. no, because there are other RB that we cant acount for, so we should have the CPR hold his shot. What happens if someone RBs the RBer? ... exactly | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
First of all, we need to consider the town's goals (in order of importance): 1. Prevent the Mafia and Serial Killer from killing townies quickly 2. Organize and minimize distractions 3. Prevent the Mafia and Serial Killer from grabbing roles which help them 4. Maximize the number of town blues Remember, the game is a marathon for the town, but a race for the Mafia and Serial Killer. They want the town whittled down as quickly as possible before the town gets a chance to organize and effectively hunt them down. With this in mind, there is one very important thing to remember when looking at the setup: The mafia only have 1 KP! As such, it means that controlling the KP has got to be a focus in this game. If the town remains focused and minimizes dead townies at night, it will win. Moreover, there is exactly 1 role with perpetual KP: CPR Doctor. Therefore, we have to deny CPR Doctor. I realize that it isn't possible to deny this role completely, but we have to make it dangerous for the mafia/SK to consider selecting this role. Furthermore, after CPR Doctor has been selected, I propose that the role is not used, at least not early. Do not consider it a double lynch. That was the mistake we made in PYP1. It is simply a fact that the town gains information as the game goes along and a large town later in the game is at a huge advantage. Uninformed shots are an easy way to lose the game quickly because you wind up shooting misguided townies. We can figure out whether or not it is being used based upon the number of people dying at night (Mafia get 1 kill, SK gets 1 kill, Vigi, Angry Vigi, CPR, and JOAT are the only roles with night kills). On May 15 2012 02:08 sandroba wrote: I disagree completely with this attitude, at least this early in the game, because I'm relatively sure 2 of your first 3 shots will be innocents, and that's not a trade I want to make. (I'm not saying anything about your scumhunting abilities in particular, just noting that most vigi hits hit townies, especially early in the game when the ratios are higher.)I would totally pick cpr. Give me kp and I'll give you dead scum. On May 15 2012 03:35 sandroba wrote: Town does not want CPR Doctor to be used early. CPR Doctor is not a good pick for use as town.You guys are missing the point. The point is to deny roles that should never be used as town and are very good picks as mafia. CPR or a couple others mentioned are going to be used and wanted as both alignments. So it doesn't really makes sense to deny them. Beyond CPR, only 1 other role is so dangerous it justifies being assigned based upon drafting order: the Janitor. The ability to take away the flip information is far too strong of an ability to give to the Mafia. It greatly impairs the town's ability to organize and analyze based upon interactions between players in the thread. While roles like JOAT and Roleblocker are certainly powerful roles, neither of them has the ability to be anywhere near as game-alteringly powerful as CPR and Janitor. Godfather is not that strong at all. Sure it avoids alignment checks. So what? Framer is far more dangerous due to its flexibility to target other players. Heck, Bullet Bill and Role Cop can still find the Godfather! The KP ability of the Godfather only triggers when he is being lynched, and a 1:1 trade of a townie for a mafia member is pretty much always worth the exchange. There are definitely more dangerous roles out there. I'm not worried about the mafia using the copycat to copy CPR doctor either, because if they want to do such a thing, they need to figure out a way to stop the day 1 lynch or kill the CPR doc before the day 1 lynch (so they have to use Day Vigi or Pardoner). If they use Day Vigi, then they just donated a mafia member to have CPR doctor. We can live with that. And if they use Pardoner, they probably use up his ability on a townie and they still might not get the right role copied thanks to medics and the order GMarshal resolves the kills. Beyond those two roles, I think players should choose whichever role they want/feel comfortable using/ want to make sure the mafia don't get, including CPR or Janitor. If you're so worried that the mafia will let the role slide down to a lower slot, use your pick on the role and prevent it. At least the threat of such a thing happening should make the mafia think twice about doing something like that. While it is obviously quite strong for the town to get a lot of roles, you don't want to do so at the expense of giving the mafia/SK the flexibility of getting the roles they want (especially with low picks) or telling the mafia/SK who has what role. 15 vanilla townies vs. 4 vanilla scum vs. 1 vanilla SK is also very town-favored if the mafia only have 1 KP. One thing to consider though is the protection roles: On May 15 2012 02:48 Barundar wrote: I disagree with this sentiment. Protection roles are every bit as valuable as information or killing roles. You shouldn't only be looking to take medic/jailkeeper if you are low on the list. If you are higher on the list and feel comfortable with the role, or you are worried that the role will not be picked/ the role will be sniped early, grab it higher up! Having those roles in the game is very important for continuing to slow down the night killing. They are not low-tier roles.While I agree we need to randomize our powerroles, PYP:I was also super easy because we maxed out blue roles. Without being too specific to avoid snipes, if you end up lowish in the list please pickup heroes like medics and be a hero, even if it's not a superman you can still win the game for us. Don't be afraid to pick up stuff like role cop either, you can tell a lot from peoples alignment through their roles, in the PYP's I have played mafia has never been afraid to pick mafia power roles. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:02 Qatol wrote: What is the order in which night kills resolve (for determining which role the CopyCat would receive)? Mafia (Alignment) KP SK (Alignment) KP Angry Vigilante Vigilante Jack CPR Doctor | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Protection roles are every bit as valuable as information or killing roles. You shouldn't only be looking to take medic/jailkeeper if you are low on the list. If you are higher on the list and feel comfortable with the role, or you are worried that the role will not be picked/ the role will be sniped early, grab it higher up! Having those roles in the game is very important for continuing to slow down the night killing. They are not low-tier roles. Agreed. Personally I'm really comfortable playing as Doc, and if I'm not one of the top five (haven't played a power role in forever so I'm interested in those as well) I might snatch that or jailkeeper up. | ||
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
1. CPR 2. Janitor 3. RB I also 100% agree with everything Qatol has said. this is a marathon for town. We should focus less on KP roles, and use old fashon analysis to kill scum. A combination of defensive roles along with DT type roles would serve us best, not that the odd vig is a bad idea though. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:03 GMarshal wrote: Mafia (Alignment) KP SK (Alignment) KP Angry Vigilante Vigilante Jack CPR Doctor Okay the Copy Cat can be controlled (barring a dayvig shot/trade). We would have to threaten a protection on the CPR picker night 1 if the lynch doesn't happen (though I still want to see a lynch happen). Angry Vigi shoots after SK, so SK would determine the Copy Cat's role if there's a medic protection. The Copy Cat is not so important that it needs to be assigned. There are definitely stronger selections out there for the mafia. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Agreed. Personally I'm really comfortable playing as Doc, and if I'm not one of the top five (haven't played a power role in forever so I'm interested in those as well) I might snatch that or jailkeeper up. While this is great, don't announce something like this. Keep the mafia guessing about which role you will be picking. You don't need us to validate your pick. (Though if anyone picks Tracker, I will criticize you in the postgame - it's an awful role in this format.) On May 15 2012 05:10 hiro protagonist wrote: I agree that aside from CPR doc, the janitor is towns worst nightmare. We MUST assign it. The others for assignment is CPR doc and RBer, because of the synergy that town can harnise between these roles. so that has us at something like: 1. CPR 2. Janitor 3. RB I also 100% agree with everything Qatol has said. this is a marathon for town. We should focus less on KP roles, and use old fashon analysis to kill scum. A combination of defensive roles along with DT type roles would serve us best, not that the odd vig is a bad idea though. I disagree with a few things here. First of all, I didn't say we should focus less on KP roles. I just said that we shouldn't put a huge emphasis on grabbing them. I'm sure the mafia are thinking very hard about grabbing Vigiliante for its 2 night kills, for example, so townies should consider grabbing it first. Remember, each vanilla goon/SK is a gigantic win for the town. That being said, the defensive roles and investigative roles will play a more active part in helping the town win (rather than the passive role of defensively picking roles such as Vigilante). Second of all, I don't think Roleblocker is so important that it must be assigned. I think the uncertainty of the mafia not knowing the location of the role is more valuable. In fact, it might actually be better to use the Jailkeeper on the CPR doctor anyways (because that protects him from dying + still prevents the shot). | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Oh and he's going to claim day-vig d1 (which will be a lie) forcing some guy to post his spreadsheet or he'll dayvig him. Luckily Palmar always finds a way to target the REAL dayvig d1 so he'll get shot instead and we won't have to deal with his new "style". | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:33 Palmar wrote: And what are you gonna do about it bitch? Can we not gratuitously toss insults from the start please ^_^ | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22634 Posts
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