United Kingdom36156 Posts
Marv's giant case on Golden
Firstly, I would like to state that Golden is a clever and decently logical chap. I think this comes across from his posting. I am stating this as a general premise, as it removes a lot of the "what if he's just bad" possibilities from the case.
The main thrust of this case is that he posts a lot of 'content', he asks a lot of questions, but in fact does little to pin down scum.
His filter starts out with a few posts of fluff, which I won't hold against him as it's the beginning of the game. His first major post is this one. What does he say in this post, actually? From what I can see:
1) it's hard to get reads atm
2) telling people who haven't voted yet not to until later (???)
3) vague opinions on nreekay and yomi
4) a bunch of questions to other people.
Read the whole post again. What does golden think of matters? We actually have no idea. The whole post is in essence just fluff.
His next post is this:
On April 27 2012 15:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I agree Jailbreaker, we definitely need some more discourse on people actions. If you feel this voting for yomi will pressure that conversation to happen then i'm happy for you to do that. I also see this vote as a defence of WhySoMuch from Nreekay and Yomi's 'vampires&werewolves' related votes. I really need to hear from these two as soon as possible, with as much detail as they can provide. I want these votes to have a basis rather than being emotional or defensive votes.
Nreekay and Yomi if you two are town you've a strange way of showing it. To me Town is represented by clear, concise and reasoned posts with references and the goal of enlightening the group. Voting for the sake of voting creates an atmosphere of defensive attitudes and alot of misplaced suspicions, please explain your motive.
Still waiting from answers from several people.
Golden.
Bold is my emphasis. I think we know by now that 'concise' posts are certainly not golden's forte. We'll judge a little bit later on if he has in any way managed to 'enlighten' the group. Other than that, what does his post say? It agrees town needs to talk (o rly? surely not!) and then vague, pointless analysis on some of the votes so far. He finishes by saying he's awaiting answers. Still no stances on anything.
Moving on, take a look at the post in the spoiler. Bold is again my emphasis
+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2012 16:10 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I'd be happy to, Mordanis.
After analysis of that post i see how you can stipulate that i was contradictory. I've stated that perhaps Jailbreakers vote against yomi is what is required to get yomi to satisfactorily explain his actions and to maybe pressure nreekay to explain himself also. I think that Jailbreakers vote may have been a bit of a knee-jerk defence of WhySoMuch, but if it yields results with yomi and nreekay then i'll allow it.
i do support a first day lynch.
i dont support voting for the sake of voting.
i see jailbreakers vote as an opportunity to uncover other peoples motives, even though i'd rather not have to have him pressure so hard, i'd rather we were all active and could contribute.
My opinion of current votes:
yomi's vote seems emotional or just misdirected agression, i need a little more proof before offering my own opinion on that matter. werewolves being gay doesnt seem like a legitimate reason for me to vote.
nreekays vote seems to be a bandwagon and baseless until otherwise proven.
jailbreakers vote, while perhaps it might be in the same vain as these previous two might be what is required to show some light on both their intentions.
whysomuch's vote is perhaps to deflect the attention off himself. i dont feel like he has addressed yomi's vote on him particularly.
like i said, i'm waiting to hear from all these people before casting my own judgement. to avoid voting for the sake of voting.
Does that cover it Mordanis? I think other than that slight contradiction my posts have been to the point. thoughts?
I'm not sure what Mordanis was asking, but I presume he was pushing him for being vague? Anyway, what do we have in this post - a whole bunch, again, of vague opinions on people. My first bolded section is possibly the first time he's giving an opinion on anything. But on what? He supports a lynch, and he doesn't support pointless voting. Wow. How enlightening to the group!
To the final bolded bit - his posts have been to the point. What point, may I ask?
It's about to get a bit more interesting. WSM obviously pressured him about all this, and we get the following:
On April 27 2012 17:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Whysomuch,
I am not shrouding the fact that I havent taken any stances in fact i have made it very clear. I fully plan on making my opinions even more clear when I come up with a case. I am just not jumping to any conclusion this early in the game, before I get my facts straight. I write long posts as I don't want to be misquoted from short one liners.
Also, do you feel that my posts have been contentless or have I been helpful in analyzing the current voting against you and the others?
Golden
Now, I wasn't around day 1, but to me - no, his posts weren't helpful in their analysis. Rather they were confusing, and his questions only furthered to cause more confusion. What would have been helpful was firm stances.
Ok, but all will redeemed when, after all his 'analysis', questions, filler, and waiting, we get a nice meaty case on someone. Let's go guys!
On April 28 2012 01:54 O.Golden_ne wrote:Hi everyone, So i've sat back and had a thought about how things are looking and here is my current read. I'm going to post my opinions before bed now, and then cast my vote tomorrow based on any discussion that ensues in the next few hours. Currently my top 3 suspects: 1. Nreekay324 Filter2. AcesAnoka Filter3. Jailbreaker FilterReasoning: Nreekay has been very elusive. He has lurked, and then jumped on someone else's vote in a fashion that leads me to think he was aiming for a bandwagon. He has had ample time to rebut to any accusations and explain his position on WhySoMuch but has still yet to be heard from. Lurking and impulse voting, i would be happy to lynch him if he can't seriously change his act. AcesAnoka opened with some confusing statements, then lurked hard. While i understand one can't be active 24/7 i still feel like everything he has posted has been fairly fluffy with not much of substance to it. My read on his vote on yomi is that of the two (arguabley) most suspicious player (atleast, most talked about so far) yomi and nreekay, he would prefer to pick yomi: perhaps because if nreekay is mafia he wants to keep him alive. I feel nreekay appears far more scummy than yomi, and there may be a slight correlation between these two characters. JailBreaker's stance on yomi is reasoned on his assault on "lurkers". I felt this to be fairly aggressive play for mafia, thats why he is below the previous two. However the logic in his argument against yomi seems flawed, it appears he has targeted him solely for bandwagoning. His largest post to date appears that he is trying to appear helpful (a recurring theme) without doing a whole lot. For Jailbreaker to 'break' out of my 3rd place scum it wouldn't be hard, he would need to add a little more depth to his posting. Thoughts everyone? I'm reserving judgement on yomi at the present time, though his aggro play leads me to believe him to be town. His style is similar to Jailbreakers albeit it more active than re-active. The active nature makes him less suspicious to me then Jailbreakers. Currently i'm probably skeptical on yomi and he's probably next under JailBreaker. @Splinter, @WhySoMuch, @PureSC2 i get town vibes from you three, don't let me down.. @Mordanis you seem town though i'm watching you very closely as you appear very guarded. @Veriat @LazerMonkey You puzzle me. Get active or i'll start scrutinizing you alot harder and get a proper read on you.
God damnit, we don't even get one case, we get fingerpointing at 3 people! Let's analyse his cases:
1) Nreekay - lurky and wifom on voting patterns.
2) Aces - lurky and fluffy (!!!). Followed by wifom on voting patterns.
3) Jailbreaker - slightly odd reasoning and trying to appear helpful.
Holy shit, we wait all this time for his case, and instead we get 3 vague cases with what? calling people lurky and speculating on voting? He doesn't even bother to provide examples, just a link to their filters. Yes, we can all find the filters. But nreekay is his strongest read, right? Wrong. Followed up by another post (spoilered this time)
+ Show Spoiler +On April 28 2012 13:31 O.Golden_ne wrote:So we're drawing to the end of day one. There's been much debate so far, and unfortunately there are still several people who's post count and content is fairly light. I wish i had more to go by today but as i am pro-D1-lynch i feel we can still make progress on what we've got. It's a tough call to make, whether to kill someone on the first day or not. So far everyone has had their own take on the subject and really its some of the only information with which to substantiate cases aside from lurking and early game voting. The chances of hitting a townie is a lot higher than hitting a mafia, and in another 24 hours another one of us will be dead from the mafia. So the medic should keep and eye out for those people posting the most comprehensive arguments, as this could be a target for the mafia in the early stages of the game. as an aside, have you noticed the amusing trait of lurkers to say things like "LURKERS POST MORE!! NEED MORE CONTENT!!" In regards to my upcoming vote my read has changed after a good sleep and re-read of events. 1. AcesAnoka 2. Nreekay324 3. Veriat Reasoning: 1. AcesAnoka Your whole play is erratic. You start by strangely confirming that we shouldn't lynch first day and you post that you don't want anyone to rush voting. I like the stance of not rushing voting, however if you're adding nothing to the conversation then you are just stalling everything. Amazingly you're 3rd post includes a vote. How does this logic follow?! THEN, if you take into account the person you are voting for is yomi. Yomi's playstyle is one that you have openly criticised, however it is not too unlike your own.. just with less holes in it. Next, under the pressure i put on you and a very small explanation from yomi your vote folds. My read on you AcesAnoka is that your play reeks of either a hidden agenda (perhaps defending another scum: read Nreekay) or defensive play; Town doesn't need to be defensive. 2. Nreekay324. everything i have said previously about you i feel still stands. Your explanation post was confusing with such gems as: Show nested quote +I’ve alluded to before, and I’d like to state explicitly that I think no-lynch is a generally bad policy, with little exception. Other people have (whysomuch, lazermonkey) have made some points about this. It is very unlikely that by the deadline that town won’t have high-scum read targets to vote for. Sure, a mis-lynch would suck, but it’s not like we’re voting randomly. If there really aren’t clear scum choices, than we should no-lynch. This leads me to the next point, which is why I really think no-lynch is important. i'm really not sure where you stand at all on lynching now and it feel to me that once you get a little heat you've changed your opinion to a more neutral one. That being said, you've pointed your FOS at me and PureSC2 in the same post. Making me feel you're getting emotional over being targeted as you haven't particularly substantiated any claims against either of us. My read on you Nreekay, is you are an emotional impulsive player. You post little, and when you do post your opinions sway in the wind of what benefits you solely as a player than for town. You were effectively a lurker for a lot of the game, and this gives me little hope for you in terms of being an asset to town when the voting gets vicious.3. Veriat Your lurking has earnt you Jailbreakers 3rd place. While his posts may have flaws, your posts have more. ##Vote: AcesAnoka - Suspicious. Hidden agenda. ##FoS: Nreekay324 - Defensive. Lurking & Impulsive Votes. Both these players seem very afraid to be lynched, and squirm under scrutiny. If AcesAnoka flips town i'll have to do a serious re-evaluate of everything. Golden
Here his top target has changed. I find this astonishing. He spent the whole of the first day 'reading', 'analysing', getting people's answers, working things out - but in the space of consecutive posts he manages to change his mind on top scum target? Let me remind you of an earlier post:
On April 27 2012 17:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Whysomuch,
I am not shrouding the fact that I havent taken any stances in fact i have made it very clear. I fully plan on making my opinions even more clear when I come up with a case. I am just not jumping to any conclusion this early in the game, before I get my facts straight.
Well, we can see now he didn't do anything of the sort. All his posting leans to the fact when he finally will make a case, by god will he be sure. But no, he makes 3 'cases' followed up by changing these 3 'cases' in the very next post. Yuk.
Remember I commented earlier about his only strong stances thus far being on lynching and voting?
On April 27 2012 16:10 O.Golden_ne wrote:
i do support a first day lynch.
On April 28 2012 13:31 O.Golden_ne wrote:
It's a tough call to make, whether to kill someone on the first day or not. So far everyone has had their own take on the subject and really its some of the only information with which to substantiate cases aside from lurking and early game voting. The chances of hitting a townie is a lot higher than hitting a mafia, and in another 24 hours another one of us will be dead from the mafia. So the medic should keep and eye out for those people posting the most comprehensive arguments, as this could be a target for the mafia in the early stages of the game.
Well, that's a bit of an about turn, isn't it?
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We're getting down to the crunch as day 1 voting is coming to an end. We've finally worked out that nreekay AcesAnoka is golden's top read. We'd expect golden to be pushing his read now, right? Wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2012 04:50 O.Golden_ne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:03 WhySoMuch wrote:
Golden, Mordanis, Lazer: Would you be willing to switch to Veriat? The_Zen has posted his case, and also if you go back and read his posts on your own, what do you think? Veriat is my current 3rd scum-read, i would be happy to see him lynched. His behaviour and activity level isn't great as stated by several of the others. I cannot tell if he is town or mafia, but as a lurker i find him useless in the debate. In his inactivity lies his downfall, however with AcesAnoka and Nreekay it is their activity that has brought about my suspicions. Which leads me to question everyone in particular those voting for Veriat. If it comes down to AcesAnoka and Veriat do we lynch the flip-flop impulse voters who lurk and post fluff, or the absent veriat who 'stands firm' in his vote with the_zen_man and has otherwise done little. I will change votes only until you can show me AcesAnoka is less of a threat than Veriat.
golden does very little indeed to push his top scumread, brought about from all his analysis and jumping to conclusions. No, instead he's preparing a jump to Veriat. What is this 'less of a threat'? Why aren't you pushing your read? From within the post:
On April 29 2012 04:50 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Veriat is my current 3rd scum-read, i would be happy to see him lynched.
What is this? You're so sure in your 3 scumreads (that you changed significantly within the space of 2 posts) that your 3rd read is good enough to vote for. Really?! Again, why isn't he pushing his #1 read?
+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2012 06:12 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Mordanis I am willing to vote for Veriat. I've said this several times. Look, we've got one hour left.. as Veriat is on my list so i'll change my vote. I am happy to lynch him based on his general lack of team play, evident in his posts and mainly his lurking. To make this last hour easier for town i'll post my vote now so that it is confirmed. However before i do this remember that no matter what the outcome of todays lynch we have to consider Nreekay and AcesAnoka. I still have strong reads on these players and i will cross-reference their actions to how the lynch pans out when i am better rested.
If Veriat flips town i will want to question those pushing for Veriats lynch over AcesAnoka.
If Veriat flips mafia perhaps our town will be a little more unified.
Either way, we will have one less voter and one less lurker.
Here comes the end of our first day.
##Unvote AcesAnoka
## Vote: Veriat
"If Veriat flips town i will want to question those pushing for Veriats lynch over AcesAnoka." - this is interesting, not for the Veriat flipping town bit, but the irony of wanting to question people pushing a read when he did nothing of the sort. From the post for emphasis
On April 29 2012 06:12 O.Golden_ne wrote:
no matter what the outcome of todays lynch we have to consider Nreekay and AcesAnoka. I still have strong reads on these players
At the risk of repeating myself, where are the evidenced based cases and where is your pushing these reads?
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Post day-1 vote.
On April 29 2012 07:07 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Since we have started i have maintained an outlook preferring to take in the whole picture and analyse play before making any judgment.
This point bears repeating. His taking in the whole picture and analysing play led him to both changing the personnel and the order of his suspicions in the space of two posts.
On April 29 2012 13:38 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Holy crap,
I was just away from my computer and I'm not sure if im delirious from these strange hours I've been keeping but I've had a thought and rushed back to check the thread. Please hear me out, I know it's night and it makes it a very dangerous time to be posting something like this for fear of getting shot but i really want to put it out there regardless. Here goes.
So AcesAnoka wasn't modkilled, perhaps this is because it would have led to TWO mafia being killed in the first day which is almost unheard of.
Leaves me open to a snipe tonight but I will be asking everyone for their support In a lynch of AcesAnoka in day 2.
Thoughts?
Golden
What the fuck is this? As per my intro, golden is a clever boy. But this post is unbelievably stupid wifom on why Aces got replaced and not mod-killed. What makes it so much worse is that he uses this as justification for wanting to push Aces (my) lynch. This is really scummy, folks.
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At this point I learn golden is leaving us. But the case continues and the points still stand.
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We now get a mega-post from golden.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 30 2012 10:27 O.Golden_ne wrote:This is a solid read, please re-read it as it has alot of analysis and i don't want any of it missed.Hi again everyone, back into coherent analysis mode after a massive binge sleep and a re-set of my body clock! There are several important points worth noting for our lynch in Day 2 in regards to Veriats lynching and Yomi's assassination. I feel that i should also give my analysis on WhySoMuch as he has already voted for me today and i should post a rebut, as we need every single accurate vote today because we are 1 townie vote down out of 10. There are 8 town left and we need a majority of 6 and mafia are unlikely to vote for themselves! But let me explain that after the main analysis of this post. In the light of Veriat's lynching:Veriats lynching was a great positive step for the group so early on in the game. He did nothing for the group and was lurking. Now that Veriat has been evicted from the group it renders the Mafia unable to hide under the guise of lurker. The group has accurately sniped a lurker and promoted that active play is what is expected from one of us. Veriat is the prime example of a lurking, hiding mafia, now i fear we will see the rise of either of two kinds of Mafia. A soft-spoken yet explanatory "sponge" Mafia, who will easily slip into someone like WhySoMuch's ill-explained town-lists under the guise of participation and in the safety of assumed mutual innocence. Or a second type of which i have my own suspicions but i will keep to myself until i can be 100% sure. You will have to trust me on this one. In the light of Yomi's assassination:Unfortunately they got yomi. He was dangerous to the Mafia because he was erratic, but maybe even more dangerous because he was right. I see no reason for them to snipe yomi as a #1 priority, there were several other out-spoken target which could have yielded better results for them. I have shown a level of insight, WhySoMuch has shown to be aggro and effective in persuading votes at the end of deadline, Pure-SC2 have also given some good points. So perhaps it [i]was[i/] because of his inclination to get things right?. If you look at yomi's feed he voted WhySoMuch, Nreekay and finally Veriat. I'm glad 7 of us got to Veriat in the end, but yomi voted him first shortly after he appeared #3 on my mafia list. Yomi's strength may have been in his ability to "get it right", however his weakness in my eyes was his little posting. It would have been great to know his thoughts after the DAY1 lynch, especially his thoughts on a top 3 suspect list. I think that the reason they shot him was because while he may not have been a provider of new idea's, he was a provider of solid voting. Shooting an idea-provider would be greatly substantial for the Mafia in the early game so why didn't they? WhySoMuch could have been an ideal target and he even noted it himself so he binged out idea's in the night time. I thought that perhaps if WhySoMuch was shot than i would consider his idea's posted to be given a little more credence than i have (read below), but that is moot as he hasn't been shot. THIS the fact that he wasn't shot makes him slightly suspicious, as who would be able to spew ideas in the night time and not get shot? Perhaps a Mafia who want's to incriminate someone who has been contributing to the group with a 'legitimate nightime argument' without any contest. This is highly strange behaviour. He wasn't sniped, and his idea has gone uncontested. If WhySoMuch was mafia and his position on me was known in Day 1 and i was sniped he would be considered suspicious. So he gave his idea's hoping they will be absorbed on the record, but unchallenged and so he could use them for his benefit at a later date ("oh woops we sniped a townie, what? justify why he's my target? WELL, i commented about him at night, surely he would have sniped me") all the while sniping a solid voter town. My opinion of WhySoMuch and his vote on me.You've tried very hard to set yourself up as the 'Champion of the Veriat lynch', however as i see it you voted 3 times yesterday within rapid succession. Then by admitting 'your townies' had voted for another player you jumped on a bandwagon, which i see as very loose play. By doing that you 'won over' a cheap sort of allegiance with these players, you seem to be trying to foster some surface level friendships with these players and then persecute me for not quickly jumping between 'bandwagons'. My vote on AcesAnoka was reasoned and explained and you've belittled it with this style of play. Yes, Veriat was mafia. Yes, i didn't change vote quickly. Is it more suspect to change votes quickly just before lynch time if you've explained your stance in great detail previously? I feel my style has been efficient in gathering information on players. I also feel that had i changed quickly you would have found me suspicious also. I was going to change votes in due course and i did, which was explained in my posts which you never seem to comprehend. You worry me, you don't read very deeply into the game or into other peoples posts. I have had trouble with many of your responses to questions asked of you in regards to content and your stubborn attitude. I've answered your suspicions of me and you seem very against me. This stubborn attitude should be alleviated and you should read deeper into everyone's posts not just people who don't emerge on your core group of villagers. Please keep your vote on me until you decide with a little more consideration who is Mafia, because i assure you with 100% conviction i am Town, and that i am an asset to the Town. On a side note that you've said there is a 'core group of villages emerging' with little explanation of this town list (Bar the_zen_man) compared this to the depth your 'explanation' of your vote for me. This could be worrisome as mafia could easily slip into your Town list. Your initial justification of your vote against Veriat was fairly slim which you rectified with some loose quoting, but lynching him wasn't because of your pressure on me. If you create a group of innocents in your mind please dont let this cloud your 'bull in a china shop' analysis of players. @WhySoMuch: I am not suspicious of you as mafia. I think you are a very surface level thinking, stubborn and aggressive town. Please explain N1 to me. @People who may consider WhySoMuch suspicious: In his defence, while he may have some contradictory and flip-flop opinions towards the end of day one and had a very strong conviction to get a lynch he was much more active and aggressive than i would expect even of an aggressive mafia. @ Nreekay324How do you reason this argument now. In the hindsight that Yomi was actually innocent. It makes your play look very squirmy under the pressure you were recieveing. Explain. Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 04:12 nreekay324 wrote:
Both Golden and Pure SC2 cite yomi’s previous game, in which he played blantantly aggressively and voted early off of little (no) evidence. I know this, because I was in the same game yomi was in. His play severely impacted that game, and it was still on my mind in the beginning of this game.
What I find interesting however, is that both Golden and PureSC2 are making the beginnings of yomi’s town case FOR him, with the previous game serving as “meta-game evidence”. This is suspicious to me. They are beginning yomi’s defense case for him, why not let him make it? Further, if yomi decided to use this “meta-game evidence to make a case for himself eventually, I would be highly suspicious of yomi, because it could be a perfect mafia play. If other “townies” began the defense for yomi, it’d go down a lot better. However, I can’t make a claim against yomi because he really hasn’t said much. So, ##FOS: Golden, PureSC2.
What a fucking huge post. But what's in it? A bunch of speculation on the lynch and yomi's death. Some kind of long answer to WhySoMuch. But what of his scumreads? We have two lines that vaguely fingerpoint at nreekay. And absolutely nothing on his top scumread, Aces. I don't even know how it's possible to make such a long post without pushing scumreads at all - the mind boggles.
On May 01 2012 11:23 O.Golden_ne wrote:1. Nreekay324You posted a decent argument against Jailbreaker in a spoiler on your D1 Summary post. Nreekay324's FilterWhat would it take to change your vote from AcesAnoka (marvellosity) in the same post, to Jailbreaker? I feel like your argument against Jailbreaker looks stronger than this one against AcesAnoka (marvellosity): Show nested quote +
A number of arguments have been made, and not much to add to them because he hasn’t been posting much. He, like other lurkers, should be pressured D2. What got the successful D1 lynch was from pressuring lurkers (yomi called out veriat for this very reason). We need to keep this up.
Let's look at this. As far as I can see, here he is asking his #2 scumread to take his vote off his #1 scumread on the basis of his case against Jailbreaker. What has golden had to say about Jailbreaker? Jack shit except for his vague fingerpointing earlier (which he effectively removed by replacing Jailbreaker with Veriat).
On May 02 2012 10:24 O.Golden_ne wrote:
damnit, I'm less pissed off about lynching jail breaker as I am splinter going MIA. He was mostly active it feels like he could have helped us out. My opinion on booting jail breaker was tht if he flipped mafia then I was going to aim at nreekay (autocorrect on my iPhone corrects that as meerkat) on day 3 but if he flipped town then I was going back to acesanoka(marvelossity). I just feel that I let marvelossity slide on my suspicions as he was a lot more active and I didn't read into his play as hard come day 2. Tonight I'll re-read day 2 and tomorrow I'll post what I suspect of marvel
RIP yomi
RIP jailbreaker
RIP splinter
Golden
This post just reeks of scum. Look at his stance on Jailbreaker - "if he flipped scum... if he flipped town". It very much sounds like he wasn't voting for Jailbreaker because he was convinced he's scum, but kinda... just because. He posted nothing himself on why Jailbreaker should be scum. Day 1 he let the Veriat lynch go through without pushing his reads. Day 2 he was happy with the Jailbreaker lynch despite not actually calling him scummy and again failing to push his own reads in any way.
Summary: Golden makes very long posts, often mostly fluff, speculation, or questions. He happily bandwagons on to votes. He never makes a substantial case against anyone and he never pushes his own reads, which aren't even solid when they are promised. Effectively, he has done nothing to hunt scum.
This guy is super scummy.
##Vote: O.golden_ne (or whomever his replacement is)
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EPT
