EPTWHY INDEED, for god's sake. Look at what it's done, it's made all you fucking jubjubs convinced I'm scum BECAUSE THE SCUM MADE A CASE ON ME. God almighty. Why indeed you ask, why indeed?
Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia - Page 39
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
WHY INDEED, for god's sake. Look at what it's done, it's made all you fucking jubjubs convinced I'm scum BECAUSE THE SCUM MADE A CASE ON ME. God almighty. Why indeed you ask, why indeed? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
You say VE didn't know he was going to die. Right, that given, why would he pile pressure on an easy target in me?. I am clearly a good lynch target due to the fact I haven't scumhunted. Why the fuck the fuck would he put big pressure on me if he didn't think he was going to die? Use your bloody brains. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I don't think any real town player would have tried to shut down discussion in the way he has. His "focus on the lynch at hand" strategy translated to an attempt to get us not to talk about scumreads during all of day two. This seems to me very much like pushing a subtle mafia agenda, trying to get the town to not think about what it's doing. Even though we all knew Zentor was getting lynched barring something extraordinary happening, there was no good reason not to keep talking about who else might be scum. That is wrong. I always tell the Town to focus on the lynch at hand as we have a way of getting carried away by calling out a bunch of suspects before we secure a lynch. That's been general advice for years and if you want a most recent example you can read the endgame post of Death Factory Mafia 2 that I made. If I have tried to shut down discussion in any other way can you point out the relevant posts that show this? I'm pretty sure I didn't do this so I'd like to see evidence. Extraordinary like what? Someone diverting his wagon to move votes towards someone else? The very thing I kept saying not to happen? If by extraordinary you mean something else then be specific and tell us. If you're going to claim I'm pushing a mafia agenda then tell us what that agenda is and show the posts to back up your assertion. A town isn't just a lynch machine. The essential function of a town is to discuss; to get information out in the public and to get people to post things that can be analyzed. Regarding the town as something that just finds someone to lynch, then finds the next person to lynch, then the next, is an impoverished view that I wouldn't expect to come from a real veteran townie. Additionally, how does Ace expect the town to get information around which to build cases for later days, if he doesn't want us to discuss anything except the "lynch at hand", or the "easy lynch" as Radfield put it? Finally, there's the subjects that Ace actually has discussed. Note that he has never actually put out a read or even an opinion on any of the other veterans in the game; except for some soft accusations toward Radfield, when Radfield started to post his cases on VE. If you look at Ace's filter, he actually accuses Radfield of being scummy by "trying to divert the Zentor bandwagon" with his case on VE. However, Ace never has discussed his opinion on Forumite's play, despite people repeatedly accusing him. Unless I missed it, he's also never commented on whether he thinks I'm scum, or sbrubbles, or anyone at all except for Zentor, Radfield, and Bluelightz. To the first bolded: Where have I pushed that view? Can you show me the posts where I have done that? To the second bolded: That doesn't make me Scum. In just about every game I play I ALWAYS say secure our lynch first, then discuss other suspects. You see it as stifling discussion, I see it as keeping our focus on the task at hand. You can flip it anyway you want but show me the posts after the Zentor lynch was secured that I told the Town to stop talking about suspects. Third bolded: Why does this even matter? I not only keep my reads to myself until I feel the need to share them but I don't care about who is a vet. If there is any Mafia player on this forum that ignores "status" that would be me (except when it comes to me since I'm a GOD). But here I'll ask the simple question: If I ignore other "veteran" players how does this make me Scum? I'd really like to hear your theory on this one. This is from Ace's Mafia Manifesto: Deny information - never give the town a damn thing. Whatever you know keep it yourself unless it furthers your win condition. Don't volunteer it if you don't have to. Don't even talk about it. If you are about to be lynched and the town asks you for information evaluate if you REALLY think it'll save you. It won't? Die without saying a word. Don't talk about anything. Don't talk to anyone unless it's to taunt them and make them emotional. They can't find your allies if you don't give them a clue. Read that and think to yourself, does this or does it not sound like how Ace is playing right now? Sure, that is from my Scum guide. However if you've actually read any of my games as Town or my post game analysis, or even the Town guide written like 4 years ago you'll know I also say to keep the Town on a need to know basis. If you're going to attempt to use something I wrote against me at least make sure it applies to the situation. If this is your case then try harder. Instead of making assumptions and running wild - show the posts with this evidence of me committing these crimes. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
You think marvel is probably town right? Do you think that this looks like scum jumping on a town wagon: On April 29 2012 08:39 Forumite wrote: I´m here. I´m trying to make sense of this but too tired/confused. I was so close to throwing in with Sbrubbles. When I first saw the case it made perfect sense, the distancing, the Radfield+Marv case, where Rad got shot, making the case fall apart, so Marv looks town, while VE gets towncred for scumhunting. Right now I don´t know. Marv made an OMGUS on Sbrubbles, but it wasn´t an OMGUS, he´s so damn calm about it even when half the town are preparing to lynch him. On April 30 2012 00:30 Forumite wrote: Fuck it, I`m going with my first strong gut feeling. I'm agreeing with Sbrubbles case on Marv. I think what happened at the end of the night was that VE intentionally made a case on Rad+Marv in order to make both him and Marv look good when Radfield died. On the flipside, Marv is talking about VE a lot. ##Vote marvellosity I´m going to be out of contact for a few hours, should be back about 2 hours before the lynch. I hope it´s enough time to consolidate our votes and avoid a no-lynch. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Day 1 Day 1, I had a small suspicion on Ace because he spent roughly half of his day 1 filter with setup speculation which does NOT, help us achieve our win con of destroying all scum one way or the other. Ace, is trying to 'look' like he's contributing but he's not because he is as I quote from Ace's guide (thanks to s&b for referencing this) 'denying information' to town. On his Day 1 vote, in his vote Ace hedges, ALOT. He throws out random reads and spends half his vote post with '@phagga blabla' and then, his vote is only because of a frickin 1 liner. 2 Things: 1.) Radfield was the one who asked me about the setup and I answered his question 2.) It does. Setup speculation is awesome for the Town. See some of the games I've played on here. I speculate on the setup all of the time and find ways to get confirmed Town as quickly as possible. How is that no pro-Town? This day, Ace was being the most scummiest I've found of all the days that have past in this game. First, on this day Ace was 'trying'to shut down Town discussion, he kept on pushing MrZentor for derp reasons. Ace, kept on pushing the relatively easy targets today, and even said that no discussion of other candidates to the lynch was good. This is bad, because if there is no discussion (which scum would like) we would be very confused on who to lynch D3. Ace also, tries to setup for my lynch during the night, even calls me an 'easy target'. Lastly, Ace NEVER, tries to see on ANY possibilities if Zentor was town (Meta for example). Show me the posts where I shut down the Town's discussion. And yes I did go for your lynch ahead of time as I feel like you were #1 Scum as I outlined all of Day 2. How is that Scummy? Explain. To the Red: I did. And I shut it down. I already said his meta is irrelevant. What he did in another game has no bearing on this game if he does things that Scum generally do. These cases are downright pathetic. Put some effort into it. Go dig up some of my posts and get to work if you feel I'm scum. Really this is just fluff. You even admitted you couldn't find any quotes to back up your points. Lots of implying and jumping to conclusions. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 30 2012 02:42 Sbrubbles wrote: Think about this from a different perpective. VE had no idea he was going to die. Everything he said during the night was under the assumption that he was gonna be alive today. Tell me Ace, why did VE make a big case on Rad, who was playing strongly as town, 3 minutes before killing him and confirming him as town? And why add marvelosity to the case? Ace, you're known as a strong town player and I respect you opinion. But you're refusing to put any thought into case and it's starting to look scummy. Actually that is the perspective I'm using. VE has no idea he is going to die - why would he push his scum buddy during THE NIGHT? To the bolded: Look, I can't tell you why VE made a case on Radfield. But adding marvellosity could easily be Scum trying to act like he has a read and throws another player into it trying to make it look legit. I don't think you would find Scum players trying to throw dirt on their scumbuddies during the Night especially if they believe they will live. Why not just wait until the next day to do so? Lets keep it simple here: VE is a known Scum player that had a case on someone. Of all the information in the game that should be labeled unreliable WIFOM isn't this it? Ok lets look it another way if we really believe that VEs "case" on marvell implicates him: it's shaky. So for it to be evidence on marvellosity it should be used in conjunction with some other evidence against him. So besides this VE/marv (calling you this since I picture you as Marv Albert now) is there any other strong evidence against him? Thanks for respecting my opinion though! | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 30 2012 02:54 Snarfs wrote: Hey Ace, You think marvel is probably town right? Do you think that this looks like scum jumping on a town wagon: No. You quoted 2 posts hours apart where the first one looks like Forumite responding to prp about marv and the second one agreeing with Sbrubbles about marv and dropping a vote. Looks like a Townie with suspicion hours before, being convinced by a post that confirms his suspicion and he follows it through. Did you read the original way this marv wagon got started with prp calling him out? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5775 Posts
On April 30 2012 03:05 Ace wrote: Actually that is the perspective I'm using. VE has no idea he is going to die - why would he push his scum buddy during THE NIGHT? To the bolded: Look, I can't tell you why VE made a case on Radfield. But adding marvellosity could easily be Scum trying to act like he has a read and throws another player into it trying to make it look legit. I don't think you would find Scum players trying to throw dirt on their scumbuddies during the Night especially if they believe they will live. Why not just wait until the next day to do so? Lets keep it simple here: VE is a known Scum player that had a case on someone. Of all the information in the game that should be labeled unreliable WIFOM isn't this it? Ok lets look it another way if we really believe that VEs "case" on marvell implicates him: it's shaky. So for it to be evidence on marvellosity it should be used in conjunction with some other evidence against him. So besides this VE/marv (calling you this since I picture you as Marv Albert now) is there any other strong evidence against him? Thanks for respecting my opinion though! I believe his overall play has been lacking. I believe the strong signs are his inactivity on D1, his sheeping and lack of content on all days and his attitude when he was starting to get voted on the end of D1. I found his change of stance on Zentor also a bit strange (given that he was actually one of the people defending him D1). I went into more detail a couple of hours back: + Show Spoiler + On April 28 2012 12:03 Sbrubbles wrote: Okay here's my case on marvellosity. 1) D1: - Inactivity/no content: the only thing he comments on D1 before his vote is that Zentor might be town from a metagaming point of view. - Sheeping: votes for Snarfs without giving any reasoning. Note this is Snarf's third vote. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 04:21 marvellosity wrote: s&b's effort on Snarfs is the best I've seen so far, and due to my own failure to make good scum-reads, that will be where my vote will rest atm. ##Vote: Snarfs Note how on D2 he's changed his mind in relation to Snarfs. He only claims he's changed his mind on D2 when questioned about it. He removed his vote from Snarfs without mentioning him at all, so we could have assumed his opinion hadn't changed. + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2012 06:25 marvellosity wrote: Having had a look through his filter, he seems to be posting quite normally. Perhaps s&b's case on him was a little forced on him after all. I found his going after me for my 'soft-defences' to be really quite odd. - Desperation/Pulling the newbie card/etc: His own explanation for what's going on makes no sense + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 05:36 marvellosity wrote: I knew the end of the day would go this way. Every single Day 1 I've had I've looked bad; apparently this is something I'm seriously going to have to work on - I just haven't mastered the knack of manufacturing content when there is little material yet. We're gonna drift into that lovely situation where town's gonna lynch me although no-one really thinks I'm scum, and everyone will be like "well, that kinda sucks, but hey ho whatcha gonna do" On April 24 2012 06:03 marvellosity wrote: I would like to note that there has been no opposition to the growing bandwagon of my lynch when clearly scum has had the options to direct the vote almost anywhere with a maximum of 2 votes on any one person. On April 24 2012 06:30 marvellosity wrote: Sigh. I dislike the fact that I'm scummy because I've not been able to form a decent read although I have been extremely transparent about it. I dislike the fact no-one answered my questions on VE/Radfield cases. I dislike the fact that there's been no opposition to my lynch. Objectively the way this lynch is going down is making it pretty clear this is going to be a mislynch. On April 24 2012 06:58 marvellosity wrote: The thing that ISN'T circumstancial is the fact that the lynch on me gently drifted into being without anyone trying to prevent it. You should be able to discern the difference between the two. Engage logic please. On April 24 2012 07:05 marvellosity wrote: Considerably more people trying to prevent my lynch than there are scum, in fact... 2) D2: - He changed his stance on Zentor. That's perfectly fine. Or is it? Not enough people voted Zentor on D1 to secure his lynch, but who actually defended him? These four people did: Radfield - Didn't vote for Zentor D2 Bluelightz - Didn't vote for Zentor D2 VE - Scum, voted for Zentor D2 Marv - Voted for Zentor D2 - Taking aside his Zentor comments, his D2 has almost nothing. It has weak accusations on Radfield, in which mostly he questions Rad's stance on Zentor but doesn't take a stance on Rad himself. Actually, he steps in to answer for VE: + Show Spoiler + And question's Ace's stance on the issue without giving his own: + Show Spoiler + On April 26 2012 22:21 marvellosity wrote: Yes, but what do you actually think of the Radfield VE case? 3) VE's no lynch vote D1: Now we've reached the main point. Look at marv's play in the early game. Perfectly lynchable in terms of lynching the unhelpful lurker. An easy mislynch for scum to push for ... if only marv was town. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 04:01 VisceraEyes wrote: I can see no tangible difference between Sbrubbles and marvel and could lynch either one based on the same reasoning. VE takes a stance on me and marv, saying either one of us would be fine for the lynch. If Marv was town and he went for the mislynch, he could claim he was being consistent. He may have said this: + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 04:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, I know marvellosity is capable of more - I didn't look at his early play, admittedly my expectation of him is based on his later game activity which I have read. But that isn't a defense. It would be perfectly fine for him to press with on his lynch after saying that. VE's posting show's he's willing, perhaps eager, to try to lead the mislynch: Votes on Marv - 1 Votes on Snarfs - 3 (highest) + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 04:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I mean, as it stands right now, town is going to have to massively consolidate just to GET a lynch. What do you guy suggest? One of MrZentor or Snarfs? They're the leading candidates with 2 votes, one of MrZentors being his own. I think Zentor is town, and I don't think he'll end up voting for himself, so I'd have to go with Snarfs...but Snarfs looks town to me too. There seems to be a consensus behind a Radfield lynch, would you guys join me in lynching him over an inactive I feel has a huge chance of flipping scum? Other than these options, it's looking like a No Lynch situation to me. Then this happens: + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 05:31 phagga wrote: ##Vote: marvellosity On April 24 2012 05:33 SamuelLJackson wrote: ##vote marvellosity --- Toad On April 24 2012 05:59 Sbrubbles wrote: ##unvote ##vote: marvellosity Votes on Marv - 4 (highest) Votes on Snarf - 3 VE then turns to a post Rad had made about 2 hours prior to justify him not voting on Marv. If Marv was town, he wouldn't have to do so, he could have been the 5th vote and probably gotten closer to the mislynch. + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2012 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: Rad made me rethink voting marv - I went back and reread the beginning of his newbie game that I read and he did find himself the victim of early suspicion. I'm willing to no-lynch in this situation. In my opinion a no-lynch is better than a mislynch in this situation and I'm not confident enough in any of the lurkers anymore - there has been a lot of activity here toward the end, and it's hard to tell if it's because there's a scum candidate or because no one wants a no-lynch or what. What do you think Toad? Do you think we should lynch a lurker or no-lynch? I'm okay with no-lynching to be frank. In fact, this move made him stand out, both to me and to Toad. Now that VE's flipped scum, the pieces fit together. 4) VE's accusation on Marv: Everyone go back and read it over. His arguments in favor of a Marv lynch are purely on meta and weak as hell to boot. This, to me, looks like he is pairing up his scumbuddy with a soon-to-be confirmed townie (confirmed through death) in order to shift suspicion off Marv. If VE hadn't been shot, he would have either been trying to bus Marv at this point or, more likely (I think), bussing himself to give Marv town cred. ##vote marvellosity | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On April 30 2012 03:10 Ace wrote: No. You quoted 2 posts hours apart where the first one looks like Forumite responding to prp about marv and the second one agreeing with Sbrubbles about marv and dropping a vote. Looks like a Townie with suspicion hours before, being convinced by a post that confirms his suspicion and he follows it through. Did you read the original way this marv wagon got started with prp calling him out? Sbrubbles started it. prplhz and I agreed that marv hasn't done anything this game. Forumite gets all wishy-washy, then goes with a "gut read". That's how I read it. Anyways, doesn't actually matter if marv doesn't flip town. Ignoring all the VE-marv interaction WIFOM. What do we have with marv? We have a guy who is in danger of getting lynched day 1, so promises future content for living now: [click] Uses contradicting "observations" to explain why people are voting for him in order to convince people that voting for him is not legitimate: [click] Tries to put suspicion on Radfield for thinking MrZentor is town (WIFOM): [click, click] Despite promising future content, does not provide any until pressed to do so: [click, click] And finally, when giving content, contradicts himself by creating a case against someone based entirely on connections, when he stated himself that the case on him was weak as shit based on connections: [click] Tell me Ace, and anybody not voting marv for that matter, where in all of this, do you see town? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Ace, I don't think that ignoring veteran players necessarily makes you scum, but consistently going for the easiest lynch available without putting any effort into finding the more dangerous scum players does not smell town. Sorry but I just don't have the time right now to Radfield it up and make a long case with lots of quotes. If that means other players won't believe me then so be it. Winning a game of forum mafia is important, especially since this seems like something that gets richer and richer the longer you've played it and the better you understand the theory and the other players; but if I don't get better than a B in this class I have to take it over again next year and I'm totally not going to risk that. I'm not saying it's always a bad idea to try to get the town to really focus down on a lynch. In fact, it usually makes a lot of sense in majority lynch games like this one. However, as I and BL and other people had said several times, Zentor's refusal to defend himself and his consistently anti-town posting meant that there was zero chance his lynch gets derailed by anything other than a concerted scum effort, a huge change in heart from him, or some major scumslip. As it was, scum didn't have to do either of those things, because they could just ride the mislynch wagon. If they had been forced into discussing their reads during that day instead of being able to just focus on Zentor, we would have more to analyze now and they would have been forced to take more stances. Sure, you could argue that in cases where the clear and obvious lynch target actually is scum, then having the town focus exclusively on that lynch would make it harder for the scum team to sneak in and try and divert the lynch. However, imo it's always more dangerous for scum to have to act than for them to be able to just slip by, and if they try and divert the bandwagon it gives an opportunity for the town to catch them in the act. Plus, even once the Zentor lynch was assured and we had several votes beyond majority, I don't see you having helped move the discussion forward - or done much of anything as a matter of fact. What I'm saying is that by focusing on the Zentor lynch and discouraging discussion of other scum, you were moving the mafia's agenda. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
Case one ace looks bad, will have to reread marv stuff. Where is prplhz? | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
Case one ace looks bad, will have to reread marv stuff. Where is prplhz? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
I didn't 'try to put suspicion' on Radfield, I pointed out, using filter as evidence, the remarkable amount of times Radfield defended Zentor. There is nothing to disagree with in the post I made there. When I die, I would favour a lynch into prplhz and Sbrubbles. And whichever alignment Ace is, I hope he wins the game as he's the only guy I've really enjoyed reading the posts of this game. Snarfs - at least that's a decent case against me. I wouldn't blame you for lynching me for it, unlike the Sbrubbles and Forumite idiocy. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I'm also not convinced he's scum, but I'm officially willing to say the following: I think ace is the better lynch for today, but I would switch to Marvellosity if that was the only way to prevent a no-lynch. I think Ace is the better lynch for several reasons. One of those is that I think he's been more actively scummy than Marvellosity; and another is that I think that Ace left alive as scum is far more dangerous than Marvellosity left alive as scum. I haven't seen anything yet that would rule them out as being scum partners. @Marv, you made some cases in our noob game which I ignored at the time but in hindsight were really quite good. Why haven't you made a case on anyone this game? If you had to do so now, on who would you make it? Also EBWOP: By "either of those things" I mean "make an effort to redirect the lynch bandwagon" or "post opinions and risk slipping up." A change of heart from Zentor would have been great, since he flipped town. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 30 2012 03:58 strongandbig wrote: @Marv, you made some cases in our noob game which I ignored at the time but in hindsight were really quite good. Why haven't you made a case on anyone this game? If you had to do so now, on who would you make it? I haven't made a case because I haven't had a strong scum-read on anyone. I have stated this before. s&b - you should probably know me well enough to know that if I wanted to fabricate a decent looking case on someone, I could probably do it. And in the interests of saving my own hide, I would have done it. As above, my gut hunch is that prplhz and Sbrubbles are scum. prplhz for sheeping and stirring, and Sbrubbles because I just see something in him+VE (NOTE: THIS IS NOT A CASE. IT IS MY FEELING. IT IS WHY I HAVEN'T PUSHED FOR A SBRUBBLES LYNCH) | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
strongandbig hasn't done anything all game and at the same time he's also not really been called out. I think he's scum so lets lynch him. Anybody have anything against this? | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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