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On April 22 2012 06:03 Ottoxlol wrote:
As a townie, I find myself useful pressuring everyone to clear up their game. If I were the one coming up with a plan we discuss i would be the one spamming the thread. If they don't understand something, after asking it twice and getting the same answer they get on my watchlist. I would rather not accuse someone because he is dumb, that's not scummy enough for me.
It seems like we won't have a consensus on the vig situation, but it was a very helpful debate to get infos. Too bad not everyone posted yet.
May I ask for just one person on your "watchlist" then? I'm not asking for a full case necessarily, just a read with a little reasoning.
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Questions and shit to people:
On April 22 2012 06:04 slOosh wrote:
Gonzaw if you don't like my posting style in bigger games, that's fine.
I'm here so you can ask me what you want to. I'll be building my case against VE in the meantime.
I want you to post your thoughts on the recent events.
As soon as you came back you just asked laya about Risen and reacted to him later, I didn't see you posting any thoughts of your own, which is what I found odd.
At least in LI you posted some thoughts about some things.
On April 22 2012 06:02 BlazingJitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote:
@Jitsu: Hey Jitsu-part-of-the-hydra, would you mind posting your thoughts on the game so far?
The lesser head is currently absorbed in the wonderful world of D3 open beta. Do you have a more specific question than that?
-Blazinghand
I just want him to contribute something at some point. I know what scum hydras are capable of doing with their both heads, I did it as a scum hydra on Newbie IV.
On April 22 2012 06:03 Ottoxlol wrote:
As a townie, I find myself useful pressuring everyone to clear up their game. If I were the one coming up with a plan we discuss i would be the one spamming the thread. If they don't understand something, after asking it twice and getting the same answer they get on my watchlist. I would rather not accuse someone because he is dumb, that's not scummy enough for me.
It seems like we won't have a consensus on the vig situation, but it was a very helpful debate to get infos. Too bad not everyone posted yet.
Same question I asked Risen:
If you don't think the players discussed at the moment are scummy, explain why you don't find them scummy.
You should discuss with town about these players, even if you don't think they are scum, so we know what stances you have and have an easier time figuring out your alignment
On April 22 2012 06:10 Zephirdd wrote:
I see gonzaw arrived a reasonable way to "plan" vigilantes here. That is, a vigilante should just play as a normal vigi.
I also want them to claim way before they get lynched (if they are set to be lynched) so we can focus our attention on catching Goons and letting the vig confirm himself with night actions.
I still can't be sure who I should vote. I see marvellosity is leading the votecount, can someone provide me a link to a case of his, or even a page where I can find it?
The game barely started, why are you saying that? You don't need to instantly know who to vote, that's not what the 1st half of D1 is about and you know it.
This 1st half is there to pressure people, contributing, making sure people know you are town and prodding people to determine their alignments.
So Zephird, it would suffice if you would just comment on the things happening.
For instance, what do you think of VE? And what about Mattchew and Paqman?
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Yeah sure.
VE
+ Show Spoiler +
marvellosity said: One thing I didn't like about the whole gonzaw - VE exchange was VE's pretty bad breakdown of gonzaw's plan. It seemed to amount to this - if JK doesn't agree with the plan, then the plan is bad. But... the whole idea of the plan was that everyone agreed to it, so the JK was obviously on board, it was a terrible criticism. Looking further into VE's filter, I didn't see any further substantial objection, and he went forward to accusing gonzaw for his 'scumslip', which was at best minor, and can generally be read as unimportant.
I asked him 3 times about this and no response.
+ Show Spoiler +ANYONE PUSHING A MASS-VIG-CLAIM IS DOING SO ALONGSIDE CLAIMED SCUM
After failing to comprehend the plan, he tried this shouting-tunneling on gonzaw, i found it rather amusing. His posts are also very non-constructive.
+ Show Spoiler +Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable.
He's playing 1v1 with gonzaw, doesnt care about anyone else.
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About marvel, i think he's not a scum just had no time to post, I would like to see him defend himself. He had 2 bad questions then he afked, I don't believe that's enough for my vote. He will post later, so I think it's useless to discuss.
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I don't like neither the case nor the timing of Mattchew's case on Paqman.
Paqman has responded and has generally posted in a way I would expect a newbie town to.
I'm meh on BH's case on marvelosity. I don't like the timing, and marv has responded in a way that I wouldn't consider him a good D1 lynch.
I am an advocate for gonzaw's plan. My initial dislike of the vig claim idea was because the mafia would get the names of the vigs. However, after rereading I realized that if they do shoot the vigs, then they would flip at night therefore confirming that they are indeed vigs, which is great as that is what the plan is intended to do - give town a powerful resource which we can discuss and eliminate confusion due to the death miller mechanic.
I'd suggest the vigs just shoot all the lurkers, as 1) it is an incredibly bad move for mafia to fake claim and sacrifice 1 KP to help town by shooting a lurker to gain town cred (so I doubt they would do that), and 2) we avoid potential mistakes when we direct vig shots into active players (I think the benefit of trading any vigs we have to prevent lurking is pretty good).
Ultimately, as stated by others, this game is still a game of mafia. As in, we win with analysis and logic and etc. Blues and confirmed townies are an aid, not a crutch. I think it is a good move for town to have control for vigs, discourage lurking and avoid potential fake claims by mafia.
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P.s. almost done with VE case.
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All right, /confrim.
Sorry I've been gone for the last day. The time I can spend in the thread is going to be limited for the next couple of days. After the 25th, I should be back to full steam.
Now to find some scum. Only got 12 pages to go through. Shouldn't be too hard.
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On April 22 2012 01:23 Mementoss wrote:My current thoughts: Mattchew: Here is the whole OMGUS case against him: Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 23:00 PaqMan wrote:BJ wtf did I just read. The only posts that made any sense was the one about the mass roleclaims and the fos on marvellosity, which I agree on. I think he'd be a good candidate for a vigi shot. I'm voting for mattchew. Dude's scummy as hell. Also, On April 21 2012 10:15 Bill Murray wrote:
We're not going to be able to outguess the mod based upon the numbers we sent in That's his only post since the game has started. He'd be a good vigi shot as well. ##Vote: Mattchew What is this I don't even. He contributed more than most people, that didn't even post or just posted agreeing statments. Like VE I think this was meant to be pressure towards you on fishy behaviour. Your OMGUS case also makes you seem more scummy as well as someone jumping right to your defense. Overall: Leaning Town
Contributed more than most people, lol wut? I hope you're not serious. And you're wrong, that's not the whole case on him and I wouldn't call it OMGUS either.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 23:41 PaqMan wrote:So finally I'm presenting my case against Mattchew. All posts before this one are just fluff. This is where it gets interesting. Okay, a question regarding laya's plans.. Where's the discussion on it? Do you think he's right, wrong, crazy? You just asked him a question but you don't follow up on it. You don't voice your opinion on the discussion or anything. You chip in a quick question and disappear.. You're actively lurking, making it look like your participating in discussion, but keeping away from attention and avoiding choosing a side and stating an opinion. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 13:03 Mattchew wrote:
Yo anyone else reading paqman's posts... cause you guys should... scummy as fuck Scummy as fuck how? + Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 13:10 Mattchew wrote:To elaborate Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote:
I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping..
So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. This reads to me as "i don't want to take a side, i want to look like i like both sides to the argument" also, lets change subject (but wait, read on) Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:43 PaqMan wrote:
Woops, I'm sorry! Scarface is on tv and I'm trying to multitask. It isn't working out obviously, so I'll be back in about three hours. apology post and leave to get away from being wrong. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 11:49 PaqMan wrote:On April 21 2012 11:34 VisceraEyes wrote:Paq he's talking about if there are more than 3 CLAIMS. If there are more than three CLAIMS then there's guaranteed to be a liar in the bunch, which is what he's saying. Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw.  I'm not convinced that he made a scum slip. When he said "our" he could have been referring to whoever agreed with his points. I want to see what Gonzaw has to say about your accusation. Interestingly filmsy opinion again, to me this just feels like he has more information than I do Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 12:01 PaqMan wrote:
But I do agree with you VE. Giving scum any more info puts them in an even greater advantage over us. A mass vig claim would be the same as handing them a hit list.
some of gonzaw's points however are pretty valid (no late-game chaos with vig claiming before lynch, etc etc).
Either way, I can't see a vig following either one of y'alls policies.
He claims, town lynches him and nothing is gained.
He claims, chance of mafia taking him out or keeps him alive, either way there's chaos.
I suggest that our vigilante (if we have one) doesn't claim at all. If he's about to be lynched then he needs to defend himself as a normal townie because claiming vig is going to create a shitstorm for us, which gives scum the upper hand.
If he's going to use his kp one someone, he doesn't need to claim before or after the kill. It's going to create too much confusion and WIFOM and finger-pointing and shit.
So I think that vigilantes should not make any claims this game.
I know how much we love the 3rd and 4th person to jump on an opinion and now that he knows people will agree with him, he can be firm in his assertion 1 & 2) there's nothing much I can say about that first post other than the fact that I was watching Tony kill his ex boss. I tried multitasking but I couldn't keep up with the thread while watching TV. Don't believe me? Well there's nothing else I can say. It was pretty apparent how little attention I was giving the thread during the first few hours. 3) I don't see how I had a flimsy opinion. I clearly stated that I didn't think Gonzaw made a scumslip, and I wanted to see his explanation for saying "our". 4) I'm not sure what you meant by this? I was making my stance on the subject at hand. Besides the FoS that I quoted above Mattchew hasn't contributed jack to the thread. He's the scummiest so far and unless he starts improving then my vote stays on him.
^THAT is my case. You quoted the wrong post.
Paqman:
I don't think the case that Matthchew put against you was amazing, but it definitly pointed out some inconsistencies and wishy washyness, and made you post something other than, yeah I agree with gonzaw. It also showed your OMGUS reaction.
Overall: Null leaning scum
The only thing his fos pointed out was my obvious lack of attention in the thread, which I already explained if you cared enough to read my posts.
All Mattchew has done was throw together a poorly-crafted analysis on me that made no sense. He dropped in, made his fos, and left just as quickly all the while completely avoiding the entire discussion and avoiding giving his own opinion on the subject at hand. He's the scummiest one here right now.
and made you post something other than, yeah I agree with gonzaw.
That's ridiculous. Dude please go back and read my posts before you start pointing fingers. I never agreed with gonzaw. All of my posts have been a) Opposing Gonzaw's plan and b) putting up cases against Mattchew.
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ebwop: I've been gone fishing for the last couple of hours so I'll be busy catching up.
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Mementoss are you trying to get your scum buddy out of the spotlight I'm putting him in?
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On April 22 2012 06:54 slOosh wrote:
I'm meh on BH's case on marvelosity. I don't like the timing, and marv has responded in a way that I wouldn't consider him a good D1 lynch.
Marv HAS stepped up his game since I made that post, but really it was so craptacular that the only way it could go is up. That's a fair point you make though. My question for you is: What do you mean when you say you don't like the timing?
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@Blazing: I guess that the "timing" thing he mentions is the same one I'm accusing Mattchew and Risen of:
There is a lot of shit going on in the thread, but instead of commenting on it, or posting thoughts about it you ignore all of it and go FoS someone completely irrelevant to the current discussion, and then you continue to ignore it.
For instance, you don't mention VE, nor Paqman at all and those were "cases" and discussions that happened before you made your marv case.
So yeah, now that I notice that it does seem suspicious of you too.
Speaking of which, please tell me what you think of VE, Paqman and Mattchew, and tell me why you ignored all 3 of them until now.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 22 2012 07:06 gonzaw wrote:
@Blazing: I guess that the "timing" thing he mentions is the same one I'm accusing Mattchew and Risen of:
There is a lot of shit going on in the thread, but instead of commenting on it, or posting thoughts about it you ignore all of it and go FoS someone completely irrelevant to the current discussion, and then you continue to ignore it.
For instance, you don't mention VE, nor Paqman at all and those were "cases" and discussions that happened before you made your marv case.
So yeah, now that I notice that it does seem suspicious of you too.
Speaking of which, please tell me what you think of VE, Paqman and Mattchew, and tell me why you ignored all 3 of them until now.
The entire discussion about mass role claims, and your stupid mass roleclaim in particular, is retarded. Everything that percipitated from it is retarded.
My notes for mattchew currently are: "suggests a policy lynch of BM. Pushes paqman semi-shittily"
My current notes for Paqman are: "worthless"
Clearly you didn't read my filter, because I haven't ignored VE. Go read it.
My current notes for VE is: "worthless townie", building off of stuff I've already said briefly about VE. See everyone seems to think VE is somehow useful as a town player, when in actuality he's utterly totally and inexhaustibly bad (see SOAF mafia
In any case, Marv was hiding in plain sight so i called him out. Also I didn't FoS anyone. I fucking voted that motherfucker with the intention of burying him.
And... seriously dude. just read my filter before you quesiton me about it. Your pressuring skills are pretty bad.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
As to why I haven't talked about literally EVERYONE in this game, it's because I'm not some shitty dick player who writes massive illegible posts that need over 9000 [horizontal rule] tags just to seperate his stuff. I push my strongest scumread and don't clutter up the thread with bad clutter. I've pushed what I need to push. If you don't like the fact that I'm not pressuring all 18 people in this game, then you can go take a hike. I don't need your "help" to hunt the scum in this game. In fact, given your skill level, I'm probably better off if you actively work against me. Please do so.
-Blazinghand
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slOosh's "VisceraEyes is scum" case.
First item: VE's rebuttal of Gonzaw's plan..
Notice how VE does not actually discuss the pros and cons of the plan itself, but instead chooses to only talk about how unfeasible it is based solely on the idea of a non-cooperative JK (which might not even exist). His point by point breakdown ,which he says is for "ease of comprehension", is actually an excuse to set up strawmen, as he avoids talking about the plan itself but rather nitpicks at each point on inconsequential points.
Go read the post. If you can honestly see any of the points being valid discussion of gonzaw's plan, then let's discuss that. But all I see is "analysis" used as an excuse to paint gonzaw in a bad light. No actual valid points.
Second item: VE's "scumslip" catch
If you look at gonzaw's post in question, you will see that he consistently uses plural pronouns "we", and so it would be totally natural to use "our" to describe the plan. Yet VE chooses to vote after catching this "scumslip", rather than demonstrating to town how gonzaw is proposing an anti-town agenda in the giant "analysis" of his rebuttal.
Third item: VE's evasion when asked for clarification
The post linked is the start of the evasion. Watch how Ottoxlol brings up how VE's rebuttal doesn't make much sense, and multiple times VE evades it without really wanting to flesh out his reasoning and discuss his stance. Townies aren't scared to discuss their stances - only mafia are scared of scrutiny as they fear their scum agenda being revealed.
More prodding and VE gives this "explanation"
On April 21 2012 11:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Because the whole plan hinges on JKs following the plan and I wouldn't in my LIFE follow a mass claim plan D1 giving scum information if I were a JK.
To which Ottoxlol points out how illogical that is
On April 21 2012 11:49 Ottoxlol wrote:
I still find it amazing that VE missed the point about JKs and still not responding directly why wouldn't the JKs not follow the plan.
So we'll know who are the vigs, and later scum wont be able to fakeclaim. We already discussed why wouldn't scum fake-claim. Scum doesn't want to kill real vigs first, so the information we are giving up is negligible
Final item: VE's apathy, misrepresentation and fearmongering (no link as there are 2 quotes)
On April 21 2012 15:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm done talking about claiming plans. Anyone who has a role is free to speculate however they choose. You're giving scum all the information they need.
I've made my opinion known. I feel like it town wants to adopt this ridiculous claim plan, then JKs and Trackers are going to be forced to participate. I wouldn't advocate participating in the plan in the first place.
Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable.
Note how VE clearly has a stance (thinks gonzaw's plan is ridiculous and terrible) but doesn't actually move to help explain and convince town why it is bad. Instead, it is like "you guys do what you want, I don't advise it, it is clearly pro scum, but you guys decide if you want to do it or not". Why wouldn't a townie be more vocal and start convincing people why it is bad if they truly believed it was pro scum agenda? Why would they be so apathetic?
Fearmongering comes in the first line - it is true that this plan outs our vigs, but really - to say that it "gives scum all the information they need" is quite the exaggeration, and as discussed by others, the information isn't that valuable (cf. Ottoxlol's post in my third point).
Misrepresentation is in the last line - gonzaw thinks that VE is scum because of his apathy and focus on irrelevant points and lack of proper scumhunting. (here and here)
On April 22 2012 00:46 VisceraEyes wrote:
gonzaw's response to my vote was terribad. Everyone should be voting for him or explaining why he's town plz.
For anyone who's all like "Hey I don't think scum would stick their neck out with some plan", I say only "OH REALLY FOOL? You don't think scum would be willing to trade a modicum of suspicion on them for the identities of all of our vigs?"
He's pushing a scum agenda in trying to fish for claims, and I for one will NOT ALLOW IT!
Again, he hasn't bothered to explain why this information is detrimental to town, and is instead misinterpreting it to make it seem like scum agenda. His whole beef is centered on how this plan outs our vigs, but he has never bothered explaining why that is bad, and intentionally does not acknowledge how it is different from other mass claims because it is actually 1) only making vigs claim, and 2) vigs have the death miller mechanic, which is the crux of gonzaw's plan.
Conclusion:
VisceraEyes has displayed a lack of scumhunting, misrepresentation of facts, fearmongering, evasion, apathy to town agenda and illogical arguments. Therefore, he must be scum.
##Vote VisceraEyes
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On April 22 2012 07:06 gonzaw wrote:
@Blazing: I guess that the "timing" thing he mentions is the same one I'm accusing Mattchew and Risen of:
There is a lot of shit going on in the thread, but instead of commenting on it, or posting thoughts about it you ignore all of it and go FoS someone completely irrelevant to the current discussion, and then you continue to ignore it.
For instance, you don't mention VE, nor Paqman at all and those were "cases" and discussions that happened before you made your marv case.
So yeah, now that I notice that it does seem suspicious of you too.
Speaking of which, please tell me what you think of VE, Paqman and Mattchew, and tell me why you ignored all 3 of them until now.
The entire discussion about mass role claims, and your stupid mass roleclaim in particular, is retarded. Everything that percipitated from it is retarded.
My notes for mattchew currently are: "suggests a policy lynch of BM. Pushes paqman semi-shittily"
My current notes for Paqman are: "worthless"
Clearly you didn't read my filter, because I haven't ignored VE. Go read it.
My current notes for VE is: "worthless townie", building off of stuff I've already said briefly about VE. See everyone seems to think VE is somehow useful as a town player, when in actuality he's utterly totally and inexhaustibly bad (see SOAF mafia
In any case, Marv was hiding in plain sight so i called him out. Also I didn't FoS anyone. I fucking voted that motherfucker with the intention of burying him.
And... seriously dude. just read my filter before you quesiton me about it. Your pressuring skills are pretty bad.
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As to why I haven't talked about literally EVERYONE in this game, it's because I'm not some shitty dick player who writes massive illegible posts that need over 9000 [horizontal rule] tags just to seperate his stuff. I push my strongest scumread and don't clutter up the thread with bad clutter. I've pushed what I need to push. If you don't like the fact that I'm not pressuring all 18 people in this game, then you can go take a hike. I don't need your "help" to hunt the scum in this game. In fact, given your skill level, I'm probably better off if you actively work against me. Please do so.
-Blazinghand
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EPT
