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On April 12 2012 17:15 Acrofales wrote:+ Show Spoiler [lenghty quote] +Hi guys. I think I have figured out why people say they hate D1. I have just read through about 4 pages of posts with a LOT of nonsense filler that nobody can use for anything (not even lighting a fire to cook Greymist and stop the hunger). Luckily it wasn't a total loss, because I did get two things from it. The first is that Dittert made a really bad proposal and got it shot down. That makes Dittert either scum, or noobie. Seeing as we're all noobs, that doesn't mean much, but I have my eye on him now and want him to post something useful. The other thing I got is more serious. KharadBanar has been a paragon of recycling useless stuff. He does not take a firm stance on anything much at all (except maybe lurker lynches, which everybody and their blind grandma will say yes to). Whereas other people pointed out that Dittert's policy was just plain bad, KharadBanar decided that it was more important to show that it was technically difficult to accomplish: why bother? However, my biggest problem with KharadBanar was his "pressure" vote. It has been pointed out why his pressure vote was bad, but what was even worse was that, after he admitted that and Hiro posted anyway, he just laid off and unvoted. If Hiro had posted anything useful I would agree with that, but here is Hiro's response to the "pressure": On April 12 2012 09:57 HiroPro wrote: I'm not an idiot Kharad.
Also, lol @ anyone who thinks Kharad's vote is random. He picked me because he wants to compare the response from last game to this game.
And this entire conversation about how and when to pressure vote is pointless, considering it's already been done in this game. A completely fair response in my book, because there was no pressure to start with, but if Kharad actually wanted to pressure Hiro, NOW is the chance to lay it on and get a real response. You've made a ballsup, Hiro responded knowing you fubar'd it up. Now ask him some pointed questions and get a response from Hiro when he's actually under pressure. Instead, what does Kharad do? On April 12 2012 10:01 KharadBanar wrote: ...and this is actually a useful answer. Thank you Hiro. I'm not saying this is how it's done but I got the result I wanted in some way.
##unvote
btw, I don't think it's that obvious to everyone that I picked you just for that. What? How was his answer in any way, shape, or form useful? All he said was "lololol wtf vote". So yeah, Kharad. Step it up. People say your play in Newbie VI was good. I want to see some of that play instead of all this nonsense. @Xatalos: of course I was quiet, I was asleep.
This is actually a really fair accusation to make, and as far as the Dittert thing with the random votes goes I don't really have an excuse. Furthermore, I have actually no freaking idea as to how to begin in a Mafia game. Look at VI and you'll see the first productive comments I made were well after people had taken stances and made their cases; I work way better with more material out there to go off of. As for the pressure vote, consider that Hiro responded to me at 2:57 AM of my local time and I was really really tired. I was actually rather happy to have him answer as it meant I could go to bed without worrying how the discussion would develop if Hiro showed up while I was sleeping and I couldn't take my vote off, which is why I took off the pressure so easily. Maybe I shouldn't have said the answer was "useful", but it's still an answer of him showing he's actually there, that he's been reading the thread, and tells us about his mindset on pressure votes. If that had come during the day I would certainly have inquired more than that.
So now enough with the defense, and onto some actual play. I actually have a (slight) suspicion of Xatalos, believe it or not. I have nothing to say against his case on ArcticFox, but I don't see "70-80% Mafia" in there just because Xatalos played the same way as mafia. Please remember that it is entirely possible to make this play as town if you're new. This is by no means defending ArcticFox but if I had to evaluate his chances of being Mafia right now, I would put them lower, at like 40-50% which is still quite suspicious. But the thing I really don't like in there is this quote:On April 12 2012 18:18 Xatalos wrote: I say ArcticFox and Dittert are our best Mafia reads at the moment. Anyone else want to vote? One vote isn't yet enough to force Mafia slips, but 2-3 might well be. And I want to see everyone's opinions and reactions about my case on ArcticFox (also Dittert, although my case on him is mostly just the public apology without any reason). Please remember that 2-3 votes is more than enough to cause scumslips even in town players, especially new ones. This is something I learned from VI, where Kohbee got into a fight with the entire town and looked scummy for defending himself when in actuality he was the cop desperately trying to wind himself out of the mess he's gotten into. I am not against pressuring ArcticFox at this point because we need more posts from him, but I won't use my vote for it because I think 3 votes is enough pressure to make anyone's defense look scummy, be it actual scum or just town.
Players I would like to hear more from include: trumpetarn (you're finally awake, now let's get cooking), yomi (two posts some aren't gonna cut it in the long run), Dittert (not heard of you in a long while) and vonKlaust (after your initial contribution you have been absent for quite a long time). What do you all think about the case Acrofales made on me?
I hope this gets discussion going again somewhat.
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I still think Day 1 pressure is pretty worthless in most games. I looked at Newbie VI (Kohbee and Therapist.) and TL Mafia LI (Janaan, sputnik.theory and Tunkeg), and I noticed the utter failure to catch scum on the first Day by pressure. I realize that this is a small data sample to go by, but I don't think strong pressure is the right tool to find scum in a newbie game.
And yes, my case against you was weak and I had no doubt about that. Your argumentation against ArcticFox is sound, I just don't think that makes him as scummy as you depicted it.
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EBWOP the above as a reply to Xatalos
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On April 12 2012 21:07 trumpetarn wrote: About Xatalos I feel some suspicion since he shows up so very eager point people out and so but still it what this game is about so its not much to go on just had some hinch when I read his post...
I think that aggression and being open about one's suspicions is not really big of a scum tell. In fact, you can help town immensely by doing so while nobody else has any reads. Later in Day 1 town needs to focus on their stronger reads however, and get people to consolidate their suspicions. This is not as important in a newbie game with plurality lynch, but in a "real" game where you need a majority to vote this is the only way for town to get anything done. I would therefore like to propose a procedure like this for our game too, because this is very much a learning experience and I want to prepare for the serious games to come.
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What I think about the current town situation (people who made recent large-ish posts):
Xatalos: You posted a lot of accusations so far, but a lot of the cases seem not very thought out. You want reads from other people, but you have to realize that too many slight reads actually distract focus from town; we should agree on the ones that seem most substantial and try to lynch into those.
imallinson: Your recent defense seems OK-ish, your case on trumpetarn actually somewhat thought out. We could definitely look into that more.
Acrofales: Calling out yomi seems like a right thing to do right now, because he really has some things to explain right now. You may actually really be on to something with this read.
And: Dittert: What the hell? First you bring up the discussion about random lynches, then you disappear for a while, and then you get really aggressive about willz? How is that supposed to help us find scum, especially since willz is not the most solid scum read we have right now.
Since I begun writing this post, there is also vonKlaust who has a rather large post: You make a valid argument there, but I still think there are more viable lynch targets out there (yomi, Dittert; also trumpetarn and HiroPro if they're not willing to post more).
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EBWOP: ninja'd again by BroodKingEXE D:
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Hey, after being away for a little while the thread is actually shaping up to be a little bit more productive, with people posting their reads and being generally quite sane around here. One thing I'm missing though is a bit more interaction with Yomi, because he got a case posted on him which I can definitely agree with, but has since not been around in the thread. If he's lurking out there, perhaps there's something we can do about that.
##Vote: Yomi
I would do a similar thing for HiroPro too, but I have only one vote and Yomi takes precedence to me because nobody got around to a case on Hiro yet.
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EBWOP: HiroPro actually posted while I wrote my contribution. Reading now.
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Okay, I just got up and caught up with the thread, and that huge post by Acrofales did change my priorities here somewhat:
Before, my biggest scum reads went something like this: Dittert, yomi, HiroPro, maybe BroodKing (?) I had my vote on yomi to get him to contribute something useful, which isn't going to happen until shortly before the deadline so it's useless on him for that purpose and better off on one of my bigger scum reads.
Now Acrofales has posted his suspicion on willz, I see some extremely good points in that post and did as he said (read through willz's filter (1) "knowing" he was mafia and (2) "knowing" he was town) and the mafia explanation really does make a lot more sense.
Now my scum reads go as follows: willz, probably Dittert, and likely one of yomi and HiroPro the lurkers. With this in mind, and the fact that willz really needs to explain himself, I will change my vote to him for he is my biggest scum read right now.
##Unvote ##Vote: willz22912
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Yes I think he could be scum. It's just that with how few posts he has made thus far there is not really as much evidence as with willz's lengthy filter that currently exists and has been thoroughly analysed. I'm keeping an eye out for yomi though.
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OK this case by willz doesn't seem very though out. Let's see what I see wrong with it (My annotations in italics):
On April 14 2012 01:47 willz22912 wrote:My case against BroodKingEXE: I advise everyone to in addition to this case where I point out his most glaring scumminess, take a look at his filter as a whole and see how much contribution he's really done. If you are accusing me of contributing without contributing, then what has he been doing? 1. Initially is suspicious of Dittert here, one of the top targets considering his RNG proposal and how hard it was shut down by myself and ArcticFox: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:38 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 12 2012 09:49 Dittert wrote:@Dittert: The whole RNG thing makes tons of problems. First, how do you decide who determines the random number? We can't just decide to randomize some number "as a group". And how do you keep the guy randomizing from just pulling a random number out of his ass? How do you know the guy coming up with the number isn't scum and treats this as the perfect opportunity to off the player of his liking? All very good points that I did not think about prior to posting. I was just trying to get things flowing. As someone pointed out earlier, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie. I thought this way we could get a discussion about lynching someone started without having to necessarily lynch whoever did the suggesting. I feel it's okay if I have a terrible idea, with this being my first game of mafia in my whole life, and all... We're all newbies at this game, why duck responsibility for your statement? And the discussion was already rolling why did you feel the need to redirect the topic? Trying to establish yourself as the topic starter after an active discussion was already going on: feels a little scummy to me. How is this "an accusation against [...] how hard the proposal was shut down by ArcticFox and you"? What BroodKing wrote here seems like a totally fine point to make in my book.2. Calls for a consolidation of the vote here to narrow down the likely suspects for a lynch so that Mafia have a easier time to hide behind the bandwagon: Show nested quote + @The Town: I am kind of worried about the state of the town right now. So far accusations have been flung at everyone in town. This is exactly what the mafia want: us to throw the blame at each other. My suggestion is everyone come up with a vote based on what we have heard in order to consolidate our ideas. This way there will be more pressure on the accused to act.
Of course consolidating votes is a good idea for town. If you consolidate your votes sure Mafia can bandwagon on them, but if you don't you give them every possibility to twist the outcome to their liking because nobody has a large enough edge over the other. Are you proposing we should do that?3. Next, he follows up on his "suspicions" of Dittert by posting this: Show nested quote + I'm going to vote for Dittert. So far his only attempt at an accusation is willz. He states that willz may be lurking or working. We have far more solid cases than a lurker right now. His second argument makes sense, but he is missing the point. Wiliz thinks Dittert is a bad townie, usually bad townies are Mafia. How is this statement scummy? It's not a decidedly town statement in itself but it's in no way more likely that it comes from a scum player.4. I immediately call BroodKingEXE out for his vote on Dittert and here is his response: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:37 BroodKingEXE wrote: @wiliz The problem I have with Dittert is his inactivity, after making an accusation. My vote is by no means confirmed by his inactivity, but its almost halfway through the day and he hasn't put in much effort at all. Hiro has offered nothing substantial as well, bandwagoning on the suspicions of Xatalos. Dittert's claim seems more shaky to me \so I'm going to keep my vote on him.
We have to becareful about releasing scumlists though, as they give the mafia can use them to guide their KP. Notice that his reasoning for Dittert is very flimsy, he's willing to change his vote at anytime, but feels like picking on the easiest target with the most suspicion and gives little to no weight to his case. Then take a look at the part I highlighted in red, here he starts arguing against transparency and having town not release scumlists. How is that not anti-town behavior? Releasing scumlists helps us hunt scum, it's as simple as that, information not shared is information not known. Very scummy in my mind. This seems like a totally fine point to make, not posting your scum reads is definitely not something you want to do as town. HOWEVER, you seem to have gone by that advice quite a bit today, not posting scum reads for a long time until now.5. BroodKingEXE lets Dittert off the hook with 1 post! Here: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:17 BroodKingEXE wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote:Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote:@Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote: Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting.
I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic.
I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote:On April 13 2012 01:00 ArcticFox wrote: EBWOP: Also for Yomi -- why is the vote for Dittert if you're sure Brood's scum? note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote: Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: YomiFirst off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Glad to see you post Dittert. Innocence will save you, a townie will act like a townie and mafia like a mafia. No matter how hard they try the Mafia will always make mistakes, and as long as you are actively speaking we will be able to see the difference. You've put some pretty good information up, so I'm going to take you off. I don't like your comment about an agenda though, as my only agenda should be helping the town. Me asking questions is my way of scumhunting, so I will continue to call out people on what I see. ##Unvote So basically, the whole vote on Dittert was pointless, one post (not even saying what parts of it was "good information") lets him take off the vote? How strong are BroodKingEXE's convictions, how readily is he willing to drop his vote and change it to the most easiest target, currently myself? He calls out Yomi here: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 08:38 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Yomi You vote for dittert. Which means you must make a case against him, or at least declare pressure vote. I started a policy discussion as well, so what makes Dittert more scummy than myself? If you think Artic is defending Dittert(if they are both mafia) I want to know what gives Dittert the lynch today and not tommorrow. Did BroodkingExe in your minds declare a pressure vote, or make a decent case against Dittert? No? Then why is he calling out Yomi for his own hypocrisy? I at least agree with you on this one, calling yomi out on not declaring a pressure vote is definitely hypocritical. This does however not mean that his pressure vote on Dittert earlier was a bad idea. It certainly was better than the failpressure plan I had against HiroPro.6. When I defend myself against Dittert's accusation, and tell him to stop because he's not helping. I was admittedly angry because of how relentless he had become in his tunneling of me and took it out on Dittert. BroodkingEXE however, jumps in with this: Show nested quote + This whole post reeks of scum to me. "Why are you continuing to waste discussion": well there is no such thing as wasted discussion if it is an accusation. If he thinks you are scum he has the right to that opinion. The opinion of every town member here (except mafia) is important. "I'm not even pushing for your lynch", so the only time we are allowed to challenge you is if you are attacking us?
The second paragraph is pretty bad you are flat out telling him to stop talking and that his opinion is worthless, this is very anti-town. It doesn't matter if he can't defend it others will analyze his post and make according conclusions of their own.
He says there is no wasted discussion, and every post is important, but he doesn't contribute anything of value except for commenting on my posts against Dittert. But note the red part I highlighted here, What is that sentence supposed to mean? How does he know who is mafia and who is town, and whose opinion is important, does he have the inside knowledge of who's who that only a Mafia would have at this point? You decide. How do you know he meant it that way? If you have someone figured out to be scummy, you are naturally going to trust him less than people you have a town read on, it's not something you can only do if you have confirmation of someone to be town.7. He continues to post comments about my "discussion" with Dittert: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 11:25 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz You clearly said that his opinion about you didn't matter. You say that you having been defending dittert the whole time. You've only done that once as far as I can see. Even if you were defending dittert he doesn't owe you anything, if he thinks you are scum he can't kiss up to save his own hide. If he is thinking on the wrong track then you need to put him back on the right track. This discussion isn't wasted either if we can prove the alignment of each other that is 2 less people the town have to analyze. I stated that I believed Dittert to be a newbie town who is tunneling me because of a misguided notion that I was trying to mis-lynch him (when did I ever do this, where in the thread did I call on others to vote for Dittert?) Even if I was defending Dittert he doesn't owe me anything, what cause would I have for defending him other than believing he was town, and that town should defend other town? What possible reason could I have as Mafia to defend Dittert? Also note the red part I highlighted again, What is this statement mean as well? How are we supposed to prove the alignment of one another, how am I supposed to change Dittert's opinion of me if he continues to think I am Mafia when I am not? 8. I call BroodKingEXE out on his comments about my posts, and whether or not he has enough spine to actually adhere to a stance: His response is this: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 11:59 BroodKingEXE wrote: @willz at the moment I dont see anything particularly damning about your other posts, but why waste time engaging dittert? If you really think he is a newbie, then he is really no threat to you. We as a town haven't come to a consensus to vote for you. I think that yomi's baseless accusations are still more damning. So for all the posts he's made about me, he doesn't see anything wrong with any of my other posts, but currently thinks Yomi is still more suspicious than me. He was not willing to go out on his own and make a case against me supporting Dittert's accusations, he was willing to just post fluff and seem like he's contributing.Why should he have made a case against you when he wasn't that suspicious of you at the time? He even said "I don't see anything particularly damning about your other posts". Do you want him to make a case on you when he thinks you're probably town?9 Finally, his last post and the vote he makes on me: Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:54 BroodKingEXE wrote: I have had time to look over the thread and have come up with some more evidence against willz. His posts are scummy in that they shoot down ideas of people. He hasn't analyzed anyones posts based on their content and seems to be denying open discussion based on who he thinks is scum. I have a problem with this as he said he is all for open discussion, yet he is shooting down ideas. He said that he didn't want to waste time discussing useless things, yet he dug in quite hard on trying to defend dittert even though he thought he was a newbie (and thus had no power). Also, in his in own words the discussion with me was wasted. He didn't chose to uphold his own values, in order to engage me( he didn't even state if he thought I was scum or not).
Vote: willz22912
@AFox the reason I said that was to point out the hippocracy of the situation. He said himself we shouldn't be wasting time, so why did he need to engage dittert (as he said dittert had no case against him). He fell for the bait admitting that the whole thing was trivial, which leads me to believe he is a scum who won't stand by their values. So now when 4 other people are against me and my lynch is all but assured, he jumps in at the last moment with this? This is plurality vote, 4 should have been enough already, but 5 is all but pointless. Even if you don't change your vote on me, please look at BroodKingEXE for bandwagoning on my lynch with little to no support when I flip town. Yes, this is a good point. Why would he jump on the bandwagon that late if he wasn't suspicious of you before? I don't know, maybe because he read that excellent Acrofales case on you? I don't think that he did this for no reason.Posting my rebuttal of all of your accusations now.
Now for your accusation against me:
On April 14 2012 02:11 willz22912 wrote:My other top scum reads are KharadBanar (He played well in Newbie VI if you see his OP and his filter, but he has posted little to nothing of worth, never stated an opinion on me, and now is jumping on my lynch because it's easy. Here's his post: Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:31 KharadBanar wrote: Okay, I just got up and caught up with the thread, and that huge post by Acrofales did change my priorities here somewhat:
Before, my biggest scum reads went something like this: Dittert, yomi, HiroPro, maybe BroodKing (?) I had my vote on yomi to get him to contribute something useful, which isn't going to happen until shortly before the deadline so it's useless on him for that purpose and better off on one of my bigger scum reads.
Now Acrofales has posted his suspicion on willz, I see some extremely good points in that post and did as he said (read through willz's filter (1) "knowing" he was mafia and (2) "knowing" he was town) and the mafia explanation really does make a lot more sense.
Now my scum reads go as follows: willz, probably Dittert, and likely one of yomi and HiroPro the lurkers. With this in mind, and the fact that willz really needs to explain himself, I will change my vote to him for he is my biggest scum read right now.
##Unvote ##Vote: willz22912 So his opinion of Mafia behavior is to bus someone else this early? Why would Dittert be Mafia yet push his teammate's lynch? How does this logic work? What basis do you have of your own opinion to vote me, considering you never even had me on your radar before. I try only to post real reads when I'm pretty sure of them. Other than that, I post my thoughts on other people's reads if I think I am contributing to the overall discussion, and I try to explain my reasoning if people accuse me of being scum. This all together means I am not very vocal in Day 1 discussion except for the initial non-productive banter. I do not post my opinion of everyone and everything in this thread, and I don't generally post my town reads because it gives scum a nice list of people to kill at night. Since you were a townread in my book right up until Acrofales' well thought-out case, I "never stated an opinion on you" as you explained above. It is not my "opinion of Mafia behaviour that they bus someone this early". However, you can never know what Mafia can come up with: If they know you're excluding the possibility of bussing this early, they will definitely try to do it, because then they have you confused. So I am not ruling out the possibility, and neither should you. As for basis of my own opinion to vote you, you have just given me more than enough source material with you BroodKingEXE accusation.
Since I begun writing this, there have been some other posts. I'll try responding to them if I have anything to say about them, but I'll put this out there for now.
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On April 14 2012 02:55 willz22912 wrote: @ KharadBanar
You're really going to assume that this is a giant ploy by Mafia to bus me so Dittert gains credibility? I find that to be totally without basis and completely WIFOM on what Mafia would do. Fine, don't exclude it from your thinking, but do you really honestly believe that is the most likely scenario here? What about that we're both town and it's a mis-lynch, that is not likely at all to you? Why are you associating that Dittert and I are both Mafia in your minds so strongly? You've posted in the past about your suspicions about Dittert, but this is the first time you've linked us together as the Mafia team, and that logic is absurd and full of WIFOM.
Also, you post holes in my case about BroodKingEXE but you seem to gloss over the correlation between 8. and 9. So you're willing to let him slide for admitting that he saw nothing suspicious or wrong about anything else, but when Acrofales makes his case, he's allowed to go from 0 suspicion to voting me? So again, BroodKingEXE is not willing to make his own case, but he will eagerly follow anothers lead? Does this not strike you as scummy?
You also think the Acrofales case on me is the key point in my demise, okay, I will go write a rebuttal to that now. About the bus: I don't have 100% scum reads on both you and Dittert. The fact that you're my strongest reads doesn't mean there is not actually a higher possibility of only one of you being scum, where this isn't a bus but either a scum member accusing a townie or a townie being right in his speculation. I just see a high possibility of there being a scum between the two of you. If you manage to explain your motivations behind the things Acrofales pointed out about you, I'd probably be willing to take my vote off you, because yomi and HiroPro then seem more scummy to me at this point, so please go ahead.
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@willz22912:
>Can you be more specific about what you want me to explain? Acrofales case is really long and I don't know what exactly you're looking for. I specifically found the first part (I. The Non-Contribution) to be very damning, where he points out that you accused people of picking easy targets without explanation and then picked easy targets without explanation. And please give another explanation than "I played badly" because that's also truthful if you actually are scum failing to cover up your laziness. Also, the OMGUS on BroodKing that Acrofales elaborated upon needs some explanation, because it looks as if you're Mafia and didn't like that he just pointed out your game plan.
>I was overly defensive against Dittert because he wouldn't leave me alone, that got me angry and asking him why he keeps insisting that I'm Mafia without reinforcing his case when I asked him what I have done to draw his suspicions. This is actually quite believable to me. I can understand people getting emotional when they are accused of something and don't know what exactly to respond to.
If you can explain yourself, I am willing to accept your defense and switch my vote probably to HiroPro because he has been lurking the whole time, posting some fluff in between with even less content than my posts in my lurkier period. Maybe if he gathers more than 3 votes you'll live, if you're really a townie don't pull an IdrA and prematurely gg.
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willz: This is not what I meant when I said "If you're really a townie don't gg yet" >_> I think you still look pretty scummy after Acrofales' post, but if you manage to explain that behaviour I'm willing to vote someone else. If you are "content with your fate" of getting lynched, I view that as an admission to not being able to properly explain yourself, and it makes you feel scummier. Just putting that thought process out there.
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You have remained resolute and resourceful in an atmosphere of extreme pessimism. I applaud you for that, and I think Mafia would have had a harder time with that. Therefore I'm now unvoting you.
##Unvote
As I explained earlier, I am missing contribution by HiroPro, and I said earlier I would vote him for that. I stand by my word, so:
##Vote: HiroPro
Anyone else with a vote on willz at this time please reconsider, taking into account what he said on the last pages.
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The lynch takes place at 01:00 CEST (Sweden time), which is in 4 hours.
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On April 14 2012 04:49 Xatalos wrote: Willz, please listen. Look at the situation like this (I believe this is the case):
- Willz is town - yomi is Mafia
Here are the possible outcomes:
A) We lynch Willz. He flips town. We lynch yomi tomorrow. He flips Mafia. There is no certainty about who are townies and who are not. B) We lynch yomi. He flips Mafia. We now know Willz is town have a town read on willz, as well as I and ArcticFox. We can lynch someone else tomorrow. FTFY
We cannot ever see someone as confirmed town before he flips. This way lies a mafia victory because they can use that hugely to their advantage. And never ever say about yourself to be confirmed town. Ever. This just makes you suspicious
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[b]Xatalos is voting for yomi right now.[b]
And so am I. I accept the point you brought up, Xatalos.
##Vote: yomi
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EBWOP: This should read like so: Xatalos is voting for yomi right now.
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You forgot to delete HiroPro from the list
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