On March 28 2012 10:53 Ace wrote: OP has been updated with this new mechanic:
15. At the beginning of the day, one of the lethal positions on the queue will contain an Item Box. Any player that ends up in that position receives 1 of 6 pseudo-randomly generated items:
A 1 shot medic kit - It can not be used on your self. It works for the following night and day cycle.
A 1 shot gun - Can be used that same day or the following night.
A magnifying glass = Reveals the alignment of 1 player to you.
A Teleportation Device - Instantly swap positions with any player on the queue for that day only.
A Refresher Orb that renews all PoPs for everyone and special abilities for the day phase.
An Etch-A-Sketch that allows you target a player and draw them, thereby granting yourself a copy of their powers + your own. Mafia players can not copy powers from their allies.
Only the player that landed on that item position will know what item they recieved. All items are of optional use. The only item that does not follow these rules is the Refresher Orb as it is instant. Every hour, the item in the Item Box is changed to a new item that hasn't been generated yet until all 6 have been and the process starts again. If TWO players land on the position with the Item Box, then the first player (left most position) receives the item.
Okay so...I thought if you "end up" in a lethal position, you die. Do you mean if someone PoP's you onto that spot over the course of the day?
I think he means the danger zone that burns at the end of the day. The insta-kill position is being pulled off the queue completely. I think this video might explain things better: + Show Spoiler +
LOOOL
/in just because of Wiggles's incredible use of awesome video
if Palmar is town he'd be dead with one push over the line
If he's scum he'd live and get the item.
The only reason anyone should be pushed is because we think they are scum. Treat the pushes like votes. Treat the pulls like anti-votes.
Therefore, only pull someone in a last-resort situation (i.e. as if you're trying toforce a no-lynch in a regular game) and push them only when you believe they are scum.
If we simply push and pull for arbitrary reasons then we take the responsibility out of the action and scum can get away without doing any real work.
On April 01 2012 15:18 Bluelightz wrote: I haven't helped discussion and didn't explain my reads. I think the people I mentioned are town because they didn't seem to act like they are discussing stuff in a qt blah blah.I agree that we should coordinate our PoPs.
FYI: This post makes it sound like someone just told you that your first post didn't help discussion and that you didn't explain your reads.
aka he's scum.
gg bluelightz. Please die now. Say sorry to your team.
I'm not interested in sharing my reads right now, but the fact that you would even consider saying the words "confirmed town" this early in the game scare me.
If anyone gets to the slot with the item in it, chances are incredibly strong that they will be killed.
It would take 6 pushes and 4 pulls to succeed; tying up 4 players' pushes AND pulls and a further 2 pushes.
What happens if you accidentally dedicate a scum player to pulling/pushing the target? That player gets away without having to justify his vote. We'd even have a bias toward looking upon that player favorably simply due to him/her agreeing with the plan. It can't be "easily ensured' by simply dedicating a set number of people to saving the person in question. How do we determine who does what? How do we control the lynch when we sacrifice 25%+ of our voting ability and increase the proportional power of scum? How do we coordinate when we don't even know who's on our side and who isn't?
Lastly, if we successfully devote time and effort to getting someone up there, how do we know that scum don't have a mechanic that can punish us for that? How do we know that scum don't have a hidden push ability? How do we know scum don't have a mechanic that locks a toy in place?
The fact is, we don't know anything. Thus, tying up a large proportion of our votes just to get a relatively weak one time use blue power is not worth the effort. I'd rather win this game through analysis, because I am highly against any sort of reliance on blues to win.
I think it goes without saying that we should be ignoring BM.
I have no clue why he would claim, but I have even less of a clue why he would use a pull on Palmar after Palmar's role was already confirmed and it was already established that we did not want to waste PoPs trying to get the item. Both of these actions now serve merely to detract town attention from scumhunting and are detrimental.
Why the hell would you do that when we know, if we want to kill someone who takes more than 10-12 pushes, that saving Palmar would be nearly impossible?
Take Bluelightz, for example. To kill him would take 13 pushes AT LEAST. if he is scum, we might need 14 or 15 even, if there are hidden pulling mechanics. That leaves only 5 pushes to save Palmar if he is town.
That ties up 18 pushes. That means anyone who doesn't push with the rest of town will cause us great problems and it unnecessarily restricts our ability to kill/save who we want to.
Scum control 5 PoPs and there's no way we can guarantee all the town work together.
Ah, you're right. That's still a pretty significant number, though. While not as drastic as 13, that still leaves the question of who will save Palmar and who will kill our target today.
It also leaves the question of, what happens if we have an inactive or someone who doesn't PoP, or if the Euros are asleep when we need Palmar saved.
All of these are important questions and you chose to simply ignore all of the discussion about the risks of pushing Palmar there without thinking of how to get him back or how to divide up the PoPs.
Scum can claim what BM claimed and the only way to confirm BM is to kill him. I'm not advocating killing him today, but he's pretty high up on my list. For now, he should just be ignored.
Part of my rationale for that is this:
10. All Toys have hidden abilities aka roles. Remember this is a TOY FACTORY - strange things can happen.
BM claimed something that "confirms" two people as town. We have no idea whether those two people are town and whether BM even has the role he claimed to have. The only thing we know is that BM moved on the queue.
I'm playing carefully because any pushes and pulls are final. This is not like a regular game where you can just throw away your vote and change it at any time you wish. The repercussions for PoPing in this game are far more direct. In addition, I'm concerned that if Palmar is town it will be difficult to keep him alive because we need pushes for the kill and pushes to save him.
In a normal game I would have voted Bluelightz by now.
Lastly, I want people to take responsibility for their PoP and following the item plan makes it very difficult for us to hold players culpable for their actions.
As for BM's claim, whether or not it seems "accurate" (whatever that means) is idle speculation and honestly a waste of time to me. BM is not any more likely town nor scum because of that claim.
On April 02 2012 08:06 wherebugsgo wrote: prplhz, please tell me who you would like to kill today and why.
Tell me additionally what you think of syllogism, VE, and layabout.
How about Tobon? Nothing in his filter even though he calls out for scum hunting, most of it is just pointing out random stuff and summarizing the thread. I'm not decided yet but he's looking pretty bad.
Why are you asking about those three specifically?
I have no idea why we are sending Palmar for that item. It's not really that powerful and we can still determine his alignment without him getting it (well, it wouldn't hurt if he would post a little more). wherebugsgo already pointed out potential dangers, scum could have a hidden PoP role, like a PoP Floridian Toy, and then they could pull (push) Palmar over the edge when he gets the item. killing one of the best town players.
This is really risky and I'm totally against it and I think people should have thought more carefully about this before going through with it, and then they should have concluded that it wasn't worth it at all.
Are you going to answer my request or are you going to continue to respond by dodging and turning the question back on me?
My request was simple; tell me what you think of those players.
Please explain why Tobon is a better choice for kill than Bluelightz.
On April 02 2012 09:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote: @WBG: I'm not exactly sure who I want to kill right now. Based off this last post, and thinking that giving Palmar an item because he asked for it is the most pro-town thing we could do, maybe VE. Or, based on his complete lack of effort, we could flip Palmar.
What do you think of Palmar and VE, WBG? I see you linked a couple people who haven't posted and said you want to kill them, so what do you think of Palmar with his one post?
At this point I'd like to keep an eye on VE. I agree with what you've said so far about him, but because he's generally rather active as both alignments, and he plays relatively well regardless, he'll be hard to read if he actually is scum. I don't think he is the best choice to kill right now, though.
As for Palmar, I'm completely fine with leaving him in the kill zone right now. You're right in that he hasn't done anything; if he's town, he'll have to explain why he needs to be pushed out. I for one am going to save my push for Bluelightz or someone else (depending on who seems scummiest within the next 12 hours or so). As of now it's Bluelightz because he's actually tried playing, but scampered away at the slightest hint of pressure. That's identical to his play from the mini I hosted.
Dodge? I answered one question and then I asked you a question, that seems pretty fair to me. Why are you dodging instead of just answering my god damn question? If you just answered then I'd probably answer your question too, well, maybe. While I'm leaning in some direction on all of them, I don't want to lynch any of them right now so I'm keeping my reads to myself.
I didn't say that Tobon is better than Bluelightz. He is though, don't you agree? Or am I never going to get any answer out of you? Hopefully they'll both come into this thread and we can get a better look at them. Right now, Tobon looks more careful than Bluelightz, who is very clearly trolling.
Leaving Palmar in the red zone is the epitome of "guilty until proven innocent". I'm holding on to my push until he's back out of the red. It's a shame that the further people pull him into the red, the more people will have an excuse for holding their pushes until he's out again. If you people want to go through with this plan then you start pulling Palmar to that item, the last puller should coordinate with the first pusher so that he doesn't stay very long in 24.
I'm not going to repeat myself, but yes, it's clear you're dodging my question. You do it yet again and try to paint me as the person who is being uncooperative. Your question of "why are you asking about those players" serves no purpose other than easing the burden on you. No possible answer I could give you would tell you anything about my alignment. However, you are dodging giving reads on several important players. Scum hate giving reads on players.
In addition:
If you just answered then I'd probably answer your question too, well, maybe.
Thank you for admitting that you would have never answered my question to begin with. My suspicions were correct.
Right now, Tobon looks more careful than Bluelightz, who is very clearly trolling.
You make this assertion on the basis of what, exactly?
What has Bluelightz said that is indicative of him "clearly trolling," and what has Tobon said that is indicative of the opposite?
Leaving Palmar in the red zone is the epitome of "guilty until proven innocent". I'm holding on to my push until he's back out of the red. It's a shame that the further people pull him into the red, the more people will have an excuse for holding their pushes until he's out again. If you people want to go through with this plan then you start pulling Palmar to that item, the last puller should coordinate with the first pusher so that he doesn't stay very long in 24.
No it isn't. I'm fine with leaving Palmar there because I have only one push and I'd rather use it to kill someone else than save Palmar. I made my opinions clear earlier and there was nothing else I could have done to stop BM and VE from pulling Palmar into the red zone.
You say that you're holding your push for the exact same reason you say it's a shame. Rather odd for you to say that.
On April 02 2012 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote: Watch me?! Watch me watch you Bugs! I SEE YOU!!!
What do you think sir? I'd like your thoughts on Syllogism, layabout and MrWiggles sir. WATCH ME AWAIT YOUR RESPONSE!!!
I'll respond to you when prpl decides to answer my question.
On April 02 2012 13:21 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know man, you're being all like careful and diplomatic and shit. Being reasonable is a scumtell with you Bugs. You haven't called me or Palmar scum or retarded once yet. And to top it off, you mistakenly "thought" that it takes 15 pushes to lynch Blue.
Something's going on with you, I'm just sayin. I'M JUST SAYING GUY
lol.
figures.
I didn't mistakenly think it takes 15 to kill Bluelightz; I thought it took at least 13 (21-8 = 13) but that was because I forgot about the stack mechanic thingy.
As for "being reasonable = scum" I'm not even going to bother arguing that, because my demeanor has nothing to do with my alignment. My agenda is the only thing that reflects my alignment.
I'm going to finalize my push since I go back to school tomorrow.
On April 02 2012 14:14 Snarfs wrote: Home now, just got caught up reading the thread.
Probably only going to post this once then head to bed so I'm not too exhausted for work tomorrow. Really interesting for me to see people pushing and pulling without giving reasons and getting away with it I.E. cascades. Pulling Palmar "as a rolecheck" and in doing so acting against his own wishes that people not use their PoPs lightly? Hopefully I'm not the only one who sees how terrible it would be for town to let people get away with this. Laying down my push here as I think this is the most scummy thing that's happened in this game so far and I want to size up reactions.
##Push cascades
I'm also slightly suspicious of Bill Murray's claim, if both he and VE are mafia it would be a decent way to "confirm" both of them as town, using me as a pawn; or if BM is scum just trying to gain some cred. Sort of WIFOM though so I will just add that BM claiming that he'd die to verify mine and VE's alignment makes me want to say that they are most likely both town as well, but again, nothing is confirmed.
The math mistake by wbg does not make him scum . On the other hand, his pointing out that a town Palmar could very well be pushed off the edge by scum seems like quite a towny thing to bring up. Wbg and VE agreeing that Bluelightz is scum, I see as a good thing, especially since they both seem town (not a contradiction to my last paragraph, read closer), we may have found 2 scum already on day 1. Now though, I think that we should push cascades into the incinerator as he's closer and he's just as scummy as Bluelightz.
if you thought Bluelightz is scum,why the hell would you waste your push on cascades?
On April 02 2012 14:21 syllogism wrote: How is using a pull as a rolecheck wasteful? Pulls can generally only be used to "save" someone, which isn't particularly towny as especially early on that means using your power against the wishes of the majority. Furthermore, since then people have been pulling palmar towards the item quite "lightly"; are they too suspicious?
On April 02 2012 14:27 syllogism wrote: Bluelightz hasn't so far said anything that indicates to me that he isn't playing his normal game, besides possibly his x,y,z,a are town post, so I wouldn't kill him right now. You on the other hand haven't quite been playing your confident style and have been asking more questions than usual, so if I were to push someone right now it would be you.
if you think I am scum, you can push me.
Mind linking me to a game that Bluelightz has played as town that supports your assertion? Because quite frankly, I don't believe you.
I said I didn't want to push Bluelightz over 6 hours ago. I have since already pushed. He clearly has no intention of continuing to post. I didn't want to push him that long ago because I thought he might post. In such a long time he has chosen to continue to stay away from the thread, which indicates that he has no interest in providing reads or establishing himself as town.
On April 02 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote: Just the "this post kind of looks coached" post?
I never said he looks coached.
On April 02 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote: All I am seeing is the same kind of short posts he always makes and his tone doesn't seem any different than normal. A bit earlier you said you don't want to push bluelightz because you dont want to use your PoP yet, but now you are encouraging me to use mine; this doesn't seem like the confident town wbg but rather the more careful scum one.
It has nothing to do with the tone of his posts but rather his activity.
Bluelightz chose to begin playing, and upon receiving pressure, he immediately disappeared. He has since said nothing. This is identical to how he acted in my mini upon receiving pressure (as the scum roleblocker). layabout agreed; he was hydraed with him.
Could I be wrong? Sure. But as town he posts more than he has done so in this game.
when no one is talking, he encourages discussion. In this game, he just says "idk what to do". He additionally has much more content in his posts than when he is scum. No, it's not a ton more than the average townie, but you can clearly tell that there's a difference merely in the amount of effort he wants to put in.
My only concern at the moment for this game is that there has been relatively little pressure and discussion about scum. Too much time has been spent on discussing Palmar and the item (speaking of Palmar, he has yet to do anything as well, and he seemed fine with the idea of going for the item, not even fearing for his life). In the case Bluelightz is not scum we have no alternate.
I make mistakes all the time as town, in fact I make them more often. There is no case on me and it's actually making me wonder why syllo and VE are pushing me. I didn't think either are scum but it's affecting my reads.
At any rate I don't like Palmar's play at the moment. He hasn't been very clear with us and his power could have easily screwed us if he had kept it a secret. We would've needed an instant kill if he decided to flip to save himself. I'm still fine with killing him. Even more concerning is that Mattchew only cares about palmar getting the item. I'd very much like to see both players flip. Mattchew has done no scumhunting whatsoever and has chosen to stay away from the kill discussion. + Show Spoiler +
he also doesn't seem as annoying as he was from GoT, so that's something there.
Risk.nuke hasn't done anything beyond his roleclaim either. It seems almost too lurky, so I'm willing to give him some more time.
Finally I would also be fine with killing prplhz. In his last post he says this:
On April 02 2012 22:00 prplhz wrote: Hey guys stop obsessing about risk.nuke and Sbrubbles: neither of them have made any posts yet so they are going to get modkilled or replaced. The only thing you can say for certain about them is that they're not here but that doesn't make them scum. It's a problem that will solve itself, either they post or they get modkilled. In either case, any plan for lynching them now is pretty stupid and is probably something scum would like.
Unlike syllo and VE, who showed no hesitation in calling me scum, prplhz chose to indirectly push the idea that I'm scum because I put pressure on risk.nuke and Sbrubbles. I am the only person to mention both of these names (from what I recall) but prplhz does not call me scum for it. This suggests to me he wants to see what develops from what he has said, as opposed to actually taking a proper stance and defending it.
All of prplhz's posts this game are like that. There is no clear stance in any of them, and he avoids answering very simple questions about his reads.
Since he is obviously never going to answer the question I posed at the beginning, I'll answer you now VE:
I think at this point that syllo needs to step up his game, but I don't find any reasons to call him scum. Layabout seems to be playing fine at this point, and Palmar is high up on my kill list. I put you in the same boat as syllo, although I think your play so far has been better.
Of course none of this will mean much until the flip today.
On April 03 2012 04:22 VisceraEyes wrote: Well, technically I didn't even correct him when you said I did - I didn't see that you had corrected him and corrected him much later than that.
I was referring to the number of pulls to pull Blue off the back of the board...not correcting the number of pushes to get him into the zone in that post.
But no, you're not missing anything there. The fact that Bugs didn't respond to your correction and Wiggles didn't even notice it is just as damning in my opinion.
But it doesn't matter ultimately because I've used my PoP's this cycle. I'm just putting that out there. And this is only part of my reasoning anyway - the other part is his contradictory behavior.
If you don't agree laya it's cool - if I'm right, he'll continue to exhibit other suspicious behavior.
Why would I respond twice to the same correction?
This is like the time someone tried calling me scum because I omitted pronouns in my sentences lol
syllo chose to immediately believe risk.nuke's claim, but he didn't consider that Cephiro could be scum.
Why is that? Syllo, please explain yourself.
In addition, I'm hesitant about saving Palmar until he gives us reads. From what he said, if it's true, he's probably town. However, I don't want to take chances or waste PoPs if we aren't for sure. The only way to ensure we're dealing with a townie Palmar is to see whether or not he will actually provide us with reads.
Received confirmation that my pull failed. Palmar is telling the truth.
On April 03 2012 06:25 Acrofales wrote: WBG: you're complaining about people wasting PoPs, but don't even read the thread properly?! You just wasted a pull. In fact, the very pull that made me decide he was speaking the truth:
On April 03 2012 02:51 Snarfs wrote: I agree that the Palmar situation needs to be dealt with and sometime before he needs to disappear being in a European time zone.
##Pull Palmar
Whoever does the last pull needs to make sure that they make it clear that they're going to pull well before they make the pull so that we don't risk two people pulling at the same time and "accidentally" killing Palmar. Ideally we have two people, one who can pull and one who can push for safety. Also, refresh the actions in a new window before pulling. No excusing any "accidents" here.
Also, with risk claiming it isn't his ability, it's quite frustrating to see that Tobon wasted his push as well (though by chance it did verify some weird behaviour around Acro/Nemesis). This is the kind of PoP that I was trying to set a precedent for punishing by pushing cascades.
And then, 8 pages later, you come in and just throw away your pull. Derp much?
On April 03 2012 06:19 wherebugsgo wrote: I'll do it.
##pull Palmar
What are you talking about? How was that a waste? That pull was the single most significant action anyone could have made today. It confirmed that Palmar was telling the truth, and had it worked, it would certainly meant a dead scum Palmar.
Now it's far more likely that Palmar is town.
Also, I still have my pull, so yes VE, I will help save you.
On April 03 2012 08:09 prplhz wrote: Hey guys I'm around for a little while.
@VisceraEyes You would be alright with a syllogism lynch because syllogism is setup speculating from a scum perspective when he says that Bill Murray's role is too powerful? Think about it from an objective stand point then because that's what syllogism surely has whether he's scum or town, the role is actually quite powerful when you keep in mind that scum only has 1KP. My problem was that the claim seemed like, the role was kind of well thought out but how he communicated it to town was pretty shabby. I would expect a scum to pretty much have the role PM written down so they know exactly what their claim is about. Bill Murray didn't really do anything besides his claim and that's bad. Overall I wouldn't want to lynch him.
Do you still need help with the pony-plan by the way?
Also, Cephiro helping out with the plan isn't a town tell at all. Scum would probably love to throw their votes away at something that is protown and that will definitely be done anyway. They'd probably flock to be the first to do it.
Since, according to risk.nuke at least one of syllogism, Sbrubbles and Cephiro is scum, why don't we just lynch all of them? It's a 3:1 balanced game and lynching all of them would give us at worst 2 town and 1 scum which would skewer the game in our favor, although it would be 3:1 lost with the night kill. I definitely think we should lynch into the list. I'd like to lynch Cephiro.
Are you defending syllogism with this post? Do you think syllogism is town?
Why do you prefer lynching Cephiro over syllogism or Sbrubbles?
Why do you say we should lynch all of them and then say we should lynch Cephiro? Is it because you know Cephiro would flip town (thus necessitating multiple deaths?)
On April 03 2012 08:09 prplhz wrote: Do you still need help with the pony-plan by the way?
Also, Cephiro helping out with the plan isn't a town tell at all. Scum would probably love to throw their votes away at something that is protown and that will definitely be done anyway. They'd probably flock to be the first to do it.
rofl
On April 01 2012 18:45 prplhz wrote: I'm against pushing Palmar up to the item slot and then back down again.
On April 03 2012 08:15 prplhz wrote: Hey Cephiro I think you were being irrationally afraid of Palmar getting the item, I had a really hard time following that train of thought. Can you tell me again in a couple of sentences why you were so opposed to it?
On April 02 2012 09:34 prplhz wrote: @VisceraEyes
It means that if you do a cost/benefit analysis of getting that item for Palmar, you'll eventually reach the conclusion that it's not worth it. It's way too risky and the item is not very powerful. Since you're apparently going ahead with it anyway we should just stop talking about it. I'm just very displeased with it. Why are you so focused on being reckless?
...(omitted parts here)
Leaving Palmar in the red zone is the epitome of "guilty until proven innocent". I'm holding on to my push until he's back out of the red. It's a shame that the further people pull him into the red, the more people will have an excuse for holding their pushes until he's out again. If you people want to go through with this plan then you start pulling Palmar to that item, the last puller should coordinate with the first pusher so that he doesn't stay very long in 24.
rofl x2
prpl, now that you can't push/pull Palmar, what are you going to do with your actions?
On April 03 2012 08:09 prplhz wrote: Hey guys I'm around for a little while.
@VisceraEyes You would be alright with a syllogism lynch because syllogism is setup speculating from a scum perspective when he says that Bill Murray's role is too powerful? Think about it from an objective stand point then because that's what syllogism surely has whether he's scum or town, the role is actually quite powerful when you keep in mind that scum only has 1KP. My problem was that the claim seemed like, the role was kind of well thought out but how he communicated it to town was pretty shabby. I would expect a scum to pretty much have the role PM written down so they know exactly what their claim is about. Bill Murray didn't really do anything besides his claim and that's bad. Overall I wouldn't want to lynch him.
Do you still need help with the pony-plan by the way?
Also, Cephiro helping out with the plan isn't a town tell at all. Scum would probably love to throw their votes away at something that is protown and that will definitely be done anyway. They'd probably flock to be the first to do it.
Since, according to risk.nuke at least one of syllogism, Sbrubbles and Cephiro is scum, why don't we just lynch all of them? It's a 3:1 balanced game and lynching all of them would give us at worst 2 town and 1 scum which would skewer the game in our favor, although it would be 3:1 lost with the night kill. I definitely think we should lynch into the list. I'd like to lynch Cephiro.
Are you defending syllogism with this post? Do you think syllogism is town?
Why do you prefer lynching Cephiro over syllogism or Sbrubbles?
Why do you say we should lynch all of them and then say we should lynch Cephiro? Is it because you know Cephiro would flip town (thus necessitating multiple deaths?)
Yes. I dont' think we should lynch syllogism today.
I prefer Cephiro because I think he was being too careful in his early posting and because he seemed to be irrationally afraid of Palmar getting the item.
The lynch-'em-all idea was just an observation, it's most likely infeasible to lynch them all today which is why I took a more pragmatic stance later in the post. Lyching into them gives us at least a 2:1 chance to lynch scum which is pretty good and I think we should definitely see if we can't agree on something like that today. I'm proposing Cephiro, but after just reading his filter a bit more carefully maybe I'll go for Sbrubbles instead. He said he'd post some more so we'll see how that goes.
Is the "yes" to "you think syllo is town", "are you defending syllo," or both? Why not syllo? You keep choosing to avoid talking about syllo, constantly making the conversation about Cephiro and Sbrubbles. Why is syllo town?
On April 03 2012 08:55 prplhz wrote: ##Push VisceraEyes
What is you guys' problem? I gave people a heads up so we didn't have any unfortunate accidents and then I went to prepare myself for bed. Jesus christ you're paranoid for absolutely no reason at all. What scum motivation is there for saying that I'm going to push somebody soon and then wait a little while to do it?
"What if it's just a decoy and currently making his way out to steal all of our cereal?"
@wherebugsgo I would really appreciate it if you would at least write out single sentences explaining why you are quoting my posts. I don't understand what you mean by "rofl" so it seems to me like you're just trying to get on my nerves and I don't want any part of that. Mostly, it seemed to me like you weren't thinking at all, you took things out of context and then instead of actually trying to use any arguments you just wrote "rofl" to ridicule me.
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
Cephiro's early posts seemed very careful and I didn't understand his irrationaly fear of Palmar getting the item. This made me think he was scummier than Sbrubbles (who was just afk) and syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
I ask you why you're defending syllogism. You respond with:
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
and
syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
falls under:
Creating an excuse not to answer ("I'm feeling sick, I can't answer now.")[
I ask you whether the "yes" was to "are you defending syllo" or "are you calling syllo town" or both, no answer there.
Refusing to answer ("No comment.")
So, are you going to answer my questions or are you going to continue dodging? Your day 1 effort in trying to find scum has been nonexistent, to say the least. Day 1 ends in 4 hours, and you've done nothing but meekly state we should lynch cephiro based on risk's roleclaim and the apparent lack of a better target.
On April 03 2012 08:58 Cephiro wrote: Lol, couldn't come up with a better response after thinking that long?
I guess I'll give a heads-up too. VE, say the word and I'll push right after I read your post.
So prp, you think I'm scummy because I did not want Palmar to gain the item. However, as wbg pointed out, you didn't want that yourself either. Admittingly, I've been much more vocal about myself being against it, but really?
CONTEXT
No, I don't think you were scummy because you did not want Palmar getting the item. I think you were scummy because you seemed afraid of him getting the item. I didn't want him to get the item because I was afraid of putting him into the red zone because scum could have hidden powers. Why were you convinved of anything by a guy whose arguments were "rofl" and "roflx2"?
I'm not eager to throw my vote away. I'd rather use it to pull you towards the edge but more than anything I want Palmar and VisceraEyes alive. I'd rather some people I trust to be town use their PoPs on it but I'll help out because I want it to happen and I can't stay around until deadline.
What is this, your fourth dodge?
Why don't you answer one simple question I ask of you?
On April 03 2012 08:55 prplhz wrote: ##Push VisceraEyes
What is you guys' problem? I gave people a heads up so we didn't have any unfortunate accidents and then I went to prepare myself for bed. Jesus christ you're paranoid for absolutely no reason at all. What scum motivation is there for saying that I'm going to push somebody soon and then wait a little while to do it?
"What if it's just a decoy and currently making his way out to steal all of our cereal?"
@wherebugsgo I would really appreciate it if you would at least write out single sentences explaining why you are quoting my posts. I don't understand what you mean by "rofl" so it seems to me like you're just trying to get on my nerves and I don't want any part of that. Mostly, it seemed to me like you weren't thinking at all, you took things out of context and then instead of actually trying to use any arguments you just wrote "rofl" to ridicule me.
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
Cephiro's early posts seemed very careful and I didn't understand his irrationaly fear of Palmar getting the item. This made me think he was scummier than Sbrubbles (who was just afk) and syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
I ask you why you're defending syllogism. You respond with:
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
and
syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
falls under:
Creating an excuse not to answer ("I'm feeling sick, I can't answer now.")[
I ask you whether the "yes" was to "are you defending syllo" or "are you calling syllo town" or both, no answer there.
Refusing to answer ("No comment.")
So, are you going to answer my questions or are you going to continue dodging? Your day 1 effort in trying to find scum has been nonexistent, to say the least. Day 1 ends in 4 hours, and you've done nothing but meekly state we should lynch cephiro based on risk's roleclaim and the apparent lack of a better target.
Yes, I am defending syllogism, yes, I think he is town. No, I'm not going to write a lot about syllogism. "Dodging" is probably a poor description of what I'm doing, I'm straight up refusing to do it because I see no reason to do it right now. Overall he seems to care about the game, he's been reasonably active and then I don't like the idea of lynching syllogism on day1. "I don't think he has done anything scummy yet", do you want me to go through all of his posts and explain sentence after sentence why they're not scummy?
I want to lynch Cephiro because I think his early posts looked very careful and because he seemed irrationally afraid that Palmar should get the item. I already stated this in the thread I believe so you're just misrepresenting when you say it's based on "risk's roleclaim and the apparent lack of a better target".
On April 03 2012 09:16 VisceraEyes wrote: prpl, out of curiosity - what makes you "trust (Palmar) to be town"? I mean, obviously I'm townie town-town, but why Palmar?
He was nullified by scum and would be a pretty poor move if Palmar was scum.
No, I don't think you were scummy because you did not want Palmar getting the item. I think you were scummy because you seemed afraid of him getting the item. I didn't want him to get the item because I was afraid of putting him into the red zone because scum could have hidden powers. Why were you convinved of anything by a guy whose arguments were "rofl" and "roflx2"?
I'm not eager to throw my vote away. I'd rather use it to pull you towards the edge but more than anything I want Palmar and VisceraEyes alive. I'd rather some people I trust to be town use their PoPs on it but I'll help out because I want it to happen and I can't stay around until deadline.
I love how you keep dodging the question wbg points at you, just trying to focus on me. And the only thing that you have on me is that I seemed "afraid" of Palmar getting the item. Very convincing.
Why do you think wbg has convinced me? He brought up a very good point which I do agree with. That doesn't mean he has me in a leash or anything of the sort. In all honesty, you are digging your own grave with every new post you make. Do you honestly want to look what this looks like to me?
It looks like you're trying to divert the attention from your scumbuddy syllogism to a townie mislynch.
It looks to me like you're speculating wildly and writing dumb stuff in bold letters. Maybe you're not scum after all.
syllo seems to care about the game? Is that why he advised against random PoPing and then pushed BM randomly?
Is that why he's advocating that others join him in trying to kill BM?
You have no basis for your assertion that Cephiro was "irrationally afraid" of Palmar getting the item. Indeed, in no way have you even shown how fear of Palmar getting an item is scummy. All you do is continually assert this single thing over and over, and you of all people should know that is no way to find scum.
I find it hard to believe that you are actually town with your stubborn refusal to cooperate so far.
alright, since VE is safe, I'm going to pull syllo.
Why? Because I think he's the most likely to be scum out of the 3 of Cephiro, Sbrabbles, and he.
##pull syllogism
I advise anyone with a pull left to consider which one of Cephiro/Sbrabbles/syllo you think is most likely scum. So far merely by the effort put in by these three players, and the tone of their posts, syllogism looks the scummiest to me.
On April 03 2012 08:55 prplhz wrote: ##Push VisceraEyes
What is you guys' problem? I gave people a heads up so we didn't have any unfortunate accidents and then I went to prepare myself for bed. Jesus christ you're paranoid for absolutely no reason at all. What scum motivation is there for saying that I'm going to push somebody soon and then wait a little while to do it?
"What if it's just a decoy and currently making his way out to steal all of our cereal?"
@wherebugsgo I would really appreciate it if you would at least write out single sentences explaining why you are quoting my posts. I don't understand what you mean by "rofl" so it seems to me like you're just trying to get on my nerves and I don't want any part of that. Mostly, it seemed to me like you weren't thinking at all, you took things out of context and then instead of actually trying to use any arguments you just wrote "rofl" to ridicule me.
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
Cephiro's early posts seemed very careful and I didn't understand his irrationaly fear of Palmar getting the item. This made me think he was scummier than Sbrubbles (who was just afk) and syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
I ask you why you're defending syllogism. You respond with:
I am not going to write a huge syllogism-town analysis when there's no case against him and it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched. Sufficient to say, I'm against lynching him today and I don't like the "scum POV setup speculation" argument that I already responded to.
and
syllogism (who didn't do anything scummy yet).
falls under:
Creating an excuse not to answer ("I'm feeling sick, I can't answer now.")[
I ask you whether the "yes" was to "are you defending syllo" or "are you calling syllo town" or both, no answer there.
Refusing to answer ("No comment.")
So, are you going to answer my questions or are you going to continue dodging? Your day 1 effort in trying to find scum has been nonexistent, to say the least. Day 1 ends in 4 hours, and you've done nothing but meekly state we should lynch cephiro based on risk's roleclaim and the apparent lack of a better target.
Yes, I am defending syllogism, yes, I think he is town. No, I'm not going to write a lot about syllogism. "Dodging" is probably a poor description of what I'm doing, I'm straight up refusing to do it because I see no reason to do it right now. Overall he seems to care about the game, he's been reasonably active and then I don't like the idea of lynching syllogism on day1. "I don't think he has done anything scummy yet", do you want me to go through all of his posts and explain sentence after sentence why they're not scummy?
I want to lynch Cephiro because I think his early posts looked very careful and because he seemed irrationally afraid that Palmar should get the item. I already stated this in the thread I believe so you're just misrepresenting when you say it's based on "risk's roleclaim and the apparent lack of a better target".
On April 03 2012 09:16 VisceraEyes wrote: prpl, out of curiosity - what makes you "trust (Palmar) to be town"? I mean, obviously I'm townie town-town, but why Palmar?
He was nullified by scum and would be a pretty poor move if Palmar was scum.
On April 03 2012 09:15 Cephiro wrote:
On April 03 2012 09:10 prplhz wrote: CONTEXT
No, I don't think you were scummy because you did not want Palmar getting the item. I think you were scummy because you seemed afraid of him getting the item. I didn't want him to get the item because I was afraid of putting him into the red zone because scum could have hidden powers. Why were you convinved of anything by a guy whose arguments were "rofl" and "roflx2"?
I'm not eager to throw my vote away. I'd rather use it to pull you towards the edge but more than anything I want Palmar and VisceraEyes alive. I'd rather some people I trust to be town use their PoPs on it but I'll help out because I want it to happen and I can't stay around until deadline.
I love how you keep dodging the question wbg points at you, just trying to focus on me. And the only thing that you have on me is that I seemed "afraid" of Palmar getting the item. Very convincing.
Why do you think wbg has convinced me? He brought up a very good point which I do agree with. That doesn't mean he has me in a leash or anything of the sort. In all honesty, you are digging your own grave with every new post you make. Do you honestly want to look what this looks like to me?
It looks like you're trying to divert the attention from your scumbuddy syllogism to a townie mislynch.
It looks to me like you're speculating wildly and writing dumb stuff in bold letters. Maybe you're not scum after all.
syllo seems to care about the game? Is that why he advised against random PoPing and then pushed BM randomly?
Is that why he's advocating that others join him in trying to kill BM?
You have no basis for your assertion that Cephiro was "irrationally afraid" of Palmar getting the item. Indeed, in no way have you even shown how fear of Palmar getting an item is scummy. All you do is continually assert this single thing over and over, and you of all people should know that is no way to find scum.
I find it hard to believe that you are actually town with your stubborn refusal to cooperate so far.
Really? wherebugsgo, really? You have been screaming out for hours for me to prove that syllogism is town, how terribly stubborn and useless has that been? Do you really think anything you've said so far makes me scum? I see that you appear to think I have contradicted myself, been stubborn, and refused to give reads, but do you think any of this makes me scum?
What a stupid question, of course I think all of those things make you look scum. You could have answered very simply with one word what you meant, but you chose to continue dragging this out. Had you answered simply the first time, perhaps I would never have caught you to begin with! Maybe next time when you roll scum you can consider that.
On April 03 2012 09:30 prplhz wrote: He was nullified by scum and would be a pretty poor move if Palmar was scum.
Okay, I believe this is what they call WIFOM. But I'd like to point it out anyway: How could you know for sure he was nullified by scum? I do admit that it certainly doesn't look like a pro-town move, but there is a slight possibility it could have been a townie ability.
Okay. Then lets assume that.
If there's 95% chance of the thing that I'm assuming then why are you even complaining? What do you gain by this other than just ruining whatever shred of a case you had against me by proving conclusively that you're just tunneling me? I can understand wherebugsgo, he has some crazy idea that getting on people's nerves will make his read of them better (I totally disagree with that, he's better in observer QTs because he isn't in the game to screw everything up), but why are you doing it? I'm kinda leaning more town on you after reading through your filter. You seems excessively active for a scum, even though a lot of it has been mindless OMGUS aggression against me spurred on by wherebugsgo.
If you're leaning town on Cephiro then who is the scum out of Sbrabbles + syllogism + Cephiro?
Wiggles, who would you push right now for scum and who would you pull?
I know you said you liked syllo for lynch best out of the trio; what do you think of prplhz and Palmar?
As a general note I think we need to keep tabs on the missing players right now; notably, Mattchew, BM, and cascades. Out of those 3 I'm most comfortable with killing cascades.
Palmar has so far done nothing, but the combination roleblock + push nullification makes it very unlikely he was targetted by a single person, IMO. Even if one person has that role, no one claimed it, and no one seems to be that interested in killing Palmar, so that must mean scum were behind it. So, don't bother regretting it, VE.
We need another 3 pulls to kill syllo. Dirkzor can be one, but I don't think there will be anymore. Bluelightz hasn't pulled (which is pretty suspicious) and Zentor is gone, which means no one is likely to die unless cascades or wiggles gets pushed (I'd rather cascades gets pushed)
On April 03 2012 12:30 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm okay with any of those 4 dying (syllo, Sbrubbles, Wiggles or cascades) - they all have about the same chance of flipping scum as far as I'm concerned (pretty high). Personally I prefer a syllo/Wiggles double-kill...but that's not feasible with current activity.
On April 03 2012 14:03 syllogism wrote: That was a sad attempt at getting rid of me. Now that I will actually be around to defend myself against the inane accusations, do actually specifically point out what I've said has been "contradictory" and why "outguessing the mod" is bad and what has been scummy about my play (nothing). WBG you basically lied about me "immediately " considering Cephire town and Cephiro you seem to be selectively pretending to be dumb.
I lied about you?
I'm excited to see this one. Please explain, syllo. Who would you have killed yesterday?
syllo chose to immediately believe risk.nuke's claim, but he didn't consider that Cephiro could be scum.
Which is demonstrably false and you know who I would have killed yesterday considering I used both of my actions. Why are you asking superfluous questions?
Of course you immediately believed risk's claim. You called Cephiro town very quickly:
On April 03 2012 04:30 syllogism wrote: You misinterpreted the description, but in a manner that makes you look towny, so that leaves Sbrubbles
##pull Sbrubbles
and then chose to pull Sbrubbles without further ado. You didn't even mention risk's roleclaim.
The fact of the matter is that I find neither of them looks like scum. You look far more scummy than either of them.
in addition, you haven't explained why you were against random/free for all PoPing but you were the only one who decided to push BM. Indeed, you didn't even bother convincing anyone to push BM and were generally apathetic all day to town affairs.
Why is it that you were against random/free for all PoPing early in the day, but chose to push someone who clearly was not supported by anyone else as a target (BM)?
I'm not misinterpreting anything you said. You didn't really consider at all that Cephiro could be scum; you took one thing he said and claimed it made him look town, and based on that one piece of evidence decided that Sbrabbles was the scum. From your perspective I think it would have taken a little bit more work than that to determine which player to pull. Indeed, you didn't justify your pull on Sbrabbles beyond that. It seemed like you didn't think about it very much, which is rather odd since PoPs are final.
On April 03 2012 14:55 wherebugsgo wrote: in addition, you haven't explained why you were against random/free for all PoPing but you were the only one who decided to push BM. Indeed, you didn't even bother convincing anyone to push BM and were generally apathetic all day to town affairs.
Why is it that you were against random/free for all PoPing early in the day, but chose to push someone who clearly was not supported by anyone else as a target (BM)?
Because I had only little time and no one was actually willing to discuss who they would be willing to push? Only VE answered my inquiries, while the others were just talking about irrelevant things. As I pointed out very early, the "lynch" deadline is about 7+ hours too late for me.
you certainly didn't seem to want to put any effort in trying to discuss those subjects.
Indeed your justification for BM's roleclaim being weak was refuted by VE himself, if I remember correctly.
On April 03 2012 14:55 wherebugsgo wrote: in addition, you haven't explained why you were against random/free for all PoPing but you were the only one who decided to push BM. Indeed, you didn't even bother convincing anyone to push BM and were generally apathetic all day to town affairs.
Why is it that you were against random/free for all PoPing early in the day, but chose to push someone who clearly was not supported by anyone else as a target (BM)?
Because I had only little time and no one was actually willing to discuss who they would be willing to push? Only VE answered my inquiries, while the others were just talking about irrelevant things. As I pointed out very early, the "lynch" deadline is about 7+ hours too late for me.
you certainly didn't seem to want to put any effort in trying to discuss those subjects.
Indeed your justification for BM's roleclaim being weak was refuted by VE himself, if I remember correctly.
And no, it wasn't refuted by VE; in fact, I convinced him. It can not be "refuted" by anyone other than Ace and it's quite suspicious that few people are agreeing with me given that the logic behind my skepticism is sound. Now that I think about it, BM said he latched on to VE, so it's possible that he is responsible for getting VE killed.
You know what: you're right. I didn't like the manner in which BM roleclaimed, and it's why I said we should ignore him. Perhaps I'm looking too much into you saying that we should be wary of free-for-all PoPing and perhaps I'm wrong about why you thought Cephiro was town as well. In retrospect I seem to recall that you have called people town for similar reasons before. I disagree that BM's roleclaim is implausible but I don't disagree that he could be scum. What Acrofales just said reminded me of that; it is very much a roleclaim that any scum could make (and so no, Acro, VE flipping town tells us nothing about BM's alignment because scum already know everyone's alignment)
This perhaps does mean Sbrabbles is scum (or risk.nuke; I can't see Cephiro being scum). I suppose we'll see tomorrow.
What do you think of prplhz? Of Palmar?
Speaking of Palmar, you around Palmar? What are your thoughts on the game and why have you not done anything useful? You pride yourself on your day 1 reads and yet your game presence is completely lacking.
On April 03 2012 15:01 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm not misinterpreting anything you said. You didn't really consider at all that Cephiro could be scum; you took one thing he said and claimed it made him look town, and based on that one piece of evidence decided that Sbrabbles was the scum. From your perspective I think it would have taken a little bit more work than that to determine which player to pull. Indeed, you didn't justify your pull on Sbrabbles beyond that. It seemed like you didn't think about it very much, which is rather odd since PoPs are final.
Are you scum wbg? Why do you attempt to know what thought process went into my decision? Why don't you find it odd that many people used/wasted their PoPs very early and attempt to make it look like me using my own PoPs at pretty much the last possible moment, given my local time, is suspicious? I made the reasonable assumption that risk is indeed the dt role he claims to be, as it's a very risky fake claim to do on day 1, especially with the possibility of the "real one" being out there. That left me with two targets for my pull and out of those sbrabbles was the obvious choice given that some of the things cephiro had posted looked town to me.
The idea that plenty of people used their PoPs early just to make you look bad is incredibly far-fetched. Either that or your phrasing here means something else (explain?)
What I was hung up on was why you accepted risk's roleclaim and how little time you spent in calling Cephiro town. On the other hand, you outright rejected BM's roleclaim, though for different reasons than I expected.
I would have done the same, but your reasoning did not make sense to me and that's what made me think you were scum. To me, BM's roleclaim is less believable than risk's not because of balance concerns but because any mafia can call out two random players and call them both town. Risk's claim included at least one scum among 3, which is potentially verifiable. You chose to focus on the balance aspect, which if you think about it, make risk's and BM's roleclaims identical.
As for the speculation of how VE died, now you become suspicious again. Why assume it was BM who killed VE? Was there a role in the previous game that functioned that way? (if so, please say so) My first thought was that scum had a hidden push power. You seem to have jumped to a more complex conclusion than that.
On April 04 2012 06:48 layabout wrote: Bugs give me all you got within the next 20 minutes! Find the Mafia: cephiro
syllo
sbrub
God damn, I just lost everything I was typing.
Long story short:
Syllo I think is most likely to be scum out of the three because he has avoided taking concrete positions and defending them. His push was very weak on BM (he wanted to see if there was approval, and I found that odd). Syllo doesn't look for approval when he searches for scum; he finds them and then asserts his opinion strongly. At no point did I actually think syllo truly believed that either BM or I were scum yesterday. Contrast his day 1 here to Storm and you'll see what I'm talking about.
In addition, he was fixated on the plausibility of BM's claim rather than whether or not it actually made him scum. If you apply even an ounce of critical thinking to the idea that BM's roleclaim is implausible because it could potentially confirm 5 townies, you run into the same problem with risk's roleclaim. So why then did syllo never question risk's roleclaim? Imagine risk activating his ability with one person on his slot and two both above and below, with the result being no scum there. Isn't that the same plausibility problem syllo brought up with risk.nuke's roleclaim?
Cephiro: I don't find him to be scummy at all. I found that he has reached many of the same conclusions I have, and for different and equally valid reasons as well. This is a good sign as a townie. He has also put in plenty of effort in trying to find scum, and has been very transparent throughout.
Sbrubbles: He is partly the reason I am unsure about syllo. Syllo pulled him after deeming Cephiro to be town, and if syllo is actually town then Sbrubbles is definitely the scum among the 3. However, based on what little he has posted, I can't fault him. His points were mostly valid (although the argument "we should kill syllo even if he is null" is rather odd, I didn't follow the logic) and the only reason people have called him scum is for his relative inactivity.
On April 04 2012 13:57 Cephiro wrote: Nemesis, Snarfs, Tobon, wbg, I would already have 5 pushes if you all pushed me towards the lethal zone. Taking into account that stacks are likely, and that the flamethrower is probably bigger, I am fairly sure I should be able to at least get very close to the item if not reach it if you all pushed me.
What I'm wondering right now is whether it's better to trust you and push you toward the item or push someone I think is scum.
First of all, you aren't confirmed town until you die. (if syllo flips scum it's actually still remotely possible you're scum as well, though I find that extraordinarily unlikely). As syllo hasn't flipped yet, what I'd rather do is kill syllo first, then determine whether or not you're trustworthy.
Cephiro, if you provide full disclosure of your role and what you plan to do, and it seems plausible, I will probably push you toward the item. I'm not comfortable with not knowing what you're actually going to do; in this situation today I'd much rather kill you both than kill one and push the other toward the item.
The problem with that, of course, is that if risk fake claimed we're killing two townies.
Syllo, if you are actually town, you need to provide us with some reads. Ignore Cephiro, since you know we can kill more than one person today.
either push you toward the item and pull someone other than syllo (e.g. Tobon or Bluelightz) OR pull syllo and push someone other than you (i.e. Tobon or Bluelightz)
I'm actually curious to see what will happen if we push you toward the fire. If you die or the plan fails, then of course that means syllo is a free kill tomorrow and we haven't lost all hope because we would have (in the optimal situation) killed someone else today.
Anyone have a problem with the push Cephiro, pull Tobon/Bluelightz plan?
On April 04 2012 14:33 prplhz wrote: Okay why is nobody talking about confirmed scum Bluelightz? I say we all pull him.
I'm not opposed to killing Tobon either but I don't think he's as safe as Bluelightz and syllogism.
Of syllogism and Cephiro I'm up for killing syllogism first. I don't like the weird Cephiro-item plan, similar plan went horribly wrong yesterday and we don't know what other powers that scum might have. Lets just pull Bluelightz and push syllogism.
Other than that, I think that the lights-out scum ability was not only to cause chaos in conjunction with Bluelightz role (I imagine we could see the potentially booby trapped positions if there were lights?), but also to make risk.nuke's DT ability useless for today. I still believe in risk.nuke's role claim.
Explain why you're calling Bluelightz confirmed-scum? His role doesn't bode well for him, but Palmar had a role I thought might be in the hands of scum.
It certainly seems like you like playing with extremes this game. I certainly have no problem with killing Bluelightz, but from what I recall you defended him just in your previous post. Look:
On April 04 2012 03:01 prplhz wrote: I really doubt that Bluelightz is scum. I didn't think so before the claim and his outbursts in face of the scrutiny he was under during his absence seem genuine and townlike. Furthermore, that claim doesn't do him any good since he's claiming a scum role, the only thing the claim actually does is make sure that he can never use his power without getting lynched so the claim makes little sense from scum perspective.
I just can't get over why Ace and Kurumi would give a scum role to a townie but as long as it isn't overpowered then I don't care.
What gives?
Indeed, early in the game when I asked you about Blue, you said this:
On April 02 2012 09:34 prplhz wrote: I didn't say that Tobon is better than Bluelightz. He is though, don't you agree? Or am I never going to get any answer out of you? Hopefully they'll both come into this thread and we can get a better look at them. Right now, Tobon looks more careful than Bluelightz, who is very clearly trolling.
You look scummier by the minute, prpl.
In addition you were pretty much defending syllogism yesterday and now all of a sudden you want to kill him. Why the change of heart? You wanted to kill Cephiro over syllo yesterday; now you want to kill syllo. Surely, you can change your mind, but this seems like a very calculated and spur of the moment move.
On April 04 2012 14:33 prplhz wrote: Okay why is nobody talking about confirmed scum Bluelightz? I say we all pull him.
I'm not opposed to killing Tobon either but I don't think he's as safe as Bluelightz and syllogism.
Of syllogism and Cephiro I'm up for killing syllogism first. I don't like the weird Cephiro-item plan, similar plan went horribly wrong yesterday and we don't know what other powers that scum might have. Lets just pull Bluelightz and push syllogism.
Other than that, I think that the lights-out scum ability was not only to cause chaos in conjunction with Bluelightz role (I imagine we could see the potentially booby trapped positions if there were lights?), but also to make risk.nuke's DT ability useless for today. I still believe in risk.nuke's role claim.
Explain why you're calling Bluelightz confirmed-scum? His role doesn't bode well for him, but Palmar had a role I thought might be in the hands of scum.
It certainly seems like you like playing with extremes this game. I certainly have no problem with killing Bluelightz, but from what I recall you defended him just in your previous post. Look:
On April 04 2012 03:01 prplhz wrote: I really doubt that Bluelightz is scum. I didn't think so before the claim and his outbursts in face of the scrutiny he was under during his absence seem genuine and townlike. Furthermore, that claim doesn't do him any good since he's claiming a scum role, the only thing the claim actually does is make sure that he can never use his power without getting lynched so the claim makes little sense from scum perspective.
I just can't get over why Ace and Kurumi would give a scum role to a townie but as long as it isn't overpowered then I don't care.
What gives?
Indeed, early in the game when I asked you about Blue, you said this:
On April 02 2012 09:34 prplhz wrote: I didn't say that Tobon is better than Bluelightz. He is though, don't you agree? Or am I never going to get any answer out of you? Hopefully they'll both come into this thread and we can get a better look at them. Right now, Tobon looks more careful than Bluelightz, who is very clearly trolling.
You look scummier by the minute, prpl.
In addition you were pretty much defending syllogism yesterday and now all of a sudden you want to kill him. Why the change of heart? You wanted to kill Cephiro over syllo yesterday; now you want to kill syllo. Surely, you can change your mind, but this seems like a very calculated and spur of the moment move.
I already explained why I'm calling Bluelightz confirmed scum. It's not because of his role, that doesn't mean anything about his alignment. It's because he used a scum favored role. If town had that role they would just not use it but he chose to use it so he is scum. Both layabout and I warned him about it when he claimed yesterday.
His first posts looked very trollish to me and I don't think that scum would put their ass on the line like that. With him using his scum favored role when he's been asked not to, I would want to lynch him almost no matter what other indication there was about his alignment.
I was defending syllogism yesterday because I'd much rather kill Sbrubbles. I wanted to kill Cephiro over syllogism some part of yesterday but I changed my mind and I'm pretty sure that is reflected in my posts too (I think I called Cephiro town at some point).
Fair enough. I agree with your reasoning about why we should be killing Bluelightz.
I'm actually curious to see what other players say first. There is plenty of time in the day and there's no rush.
I'd like to use time to get more reads, rather than idly talk about things we've already been talking about.
risk.nuke, layabout, Wiggles, Mattchew, and Bill Murray: I want you to do the bulk of the talking. Go. Tell us what you would like to do right now and who you would like to kill.
I'm at a cafe on my phone having breakfast (weird for me actually) but this is oddly relaxing.
Wait wtf Wiggles is suddenly against lynching Bluelightz?
What's with the meek response Wiggles? Why do you not want to see him flip immediately? You claim we should use our PoPs on other people but don't even offer one to begin with. The hell?
Bluelightz I really don't see how you could be town. If you actually are town you must be deficient of about 3/4 of the brain cells everyone else possesses, for reasons already mentioned several times (I.e. The position 24 bull)
First of all, Bluelightz's role might not necessarily be scum-favored in itself but definitely his use of it (or his choice to use it at all) is incredibly scummy. Why would town choose to use an ability that places bombs at random locations on the map? It could very well cause multiple people to die unexpectedly because they start the day on a trapped position, or are moved into a trapped position by scum.
As town you want to facilitate order and hunt scum in an organized way, because this game is about a race against the clock. The mafia need to kill us faster than we can find and kill them. Bluelightz used his role in a way that would hamper our effort and accelerate the effort of mafia, since his role causes disruption and death at random. If I were town and I had his role there would be no way I would ever use it.
I don't know if we'll be able to control who dies today, because the bomb could have been placed on a square with a townie (or who knows, TWO townies) who will not get moved.
Also I find no reason to be overly suspicious about the players who would rather push syllo than you, Cephiro. Unfortunately you both ended at very low positions, so unless you moved it would take a lot of pushes to achieve the goal. It's still quite a risky proposition to just trust you and expect no action from scum even if you turn out to be telling the truth.
I'll think about it some more. Others seem to have similar concerns as well.
I meant you and syllo ended up at low positions yesterday, but that shouldn't matter unless the positions are carried over. I can't find that info in the OP.
are positions carried over more or less day to day or are they randomized every day?
Yo nemesis, why did you hulk smash Tobon so early? Why didn't you wait to discuss it?
At this point I lean scum on Tobon but he's lower on the list of "needs to flip" than, for example, syllo or Bluelightz. Flipping all 3 could be a dangerous proposition. I say we continue pulling Bluelightz and we decide soon whether to push Cephiro or push someone like Tobon.
There's also a strong chance we could push both, but then the question remains of whether to push Cephiro first or kill Tobon first.
On April 05 2012 01:43 wherebugsgo wrote: He could very well be lying about the selection being random too. This could explain why the "safe spots" aren't really safe at all.
This is true, but it is modconfirmed that it is on one of the positions 2, 13 or 24. It is possible that 13 is unsafe, Blue is scum and is claiming it as safe, but at the moment I don't see that likely enough. If that's the case however, we should know by the day's end.
Explain this please. Is it because we should just blindly trust Bluelightz to tell us truthfully that the traps are placed where they can be of absolutely no use?
On April 05 2012 02:13 wherebugsgo wrote: Yo nemesis, why did you hulk smash Tobon so early? Why didn't you wait to discuss it?
At this point I lean scum on Tobon but he's lower on the list of "needs to flip" than, for example, syllo or Bluelightz. Flipping all 3 could be a dangerous proposition. I say we continue pulling Bluelightz and we decide soon whether to push Cephiro or push someone like Tobon.
There's also a strong chance we could push both, but then the question remains of whether to push Cephiro first or kill Tobon first.
Because it makes it easier to push him and actually makes him a real lynch candidate as very few people seem to be looking at him. I'm pretty sure he's scum at this point as the only thing that he has really done this game is rolefish.
You're probably right, and I could be overly worried simply because we haven't properly flipped anyone yet. I'm most concerned with getting that first scum killed because that'll at least give confirmation that we're on the right track. Perhaps I just lack confidence.
I don't want to split the votes too much, but at the same time I want to kill 3 people today (syllo, Tobon, and Bluelightz).
I'm really curious about this Cephiro thing and I'm very close to just pushing him as well.
Yeah, he's chosen to ignore my request for reads and he's flip flopped about Bluelightz as well.
You've already pulled Bluelightz, correct? Would you rather push Cephiro or Tobon?
I think we need to get town on the same page here relatively quickly. The only person I'm waiting to hear from is layabout; if he gives a solid opinion that's in agreement with what I currently think is true then we're probably on the right track.
What I can't reconcile though is that rarely are scum so in-your-face as Cephiro is, and if they are they usually cause a lot of disruption. Cephiro doesn't seem to be trolling us or trying to cause disruption, and it's no secret there is a scum between him, syllo, and risk. In addition he has pointed out a couple of things that I don't think scum would have pointed out. It's true that he could be scum, and if he is, he's been playing very well so far.
The thing though is, IF he's scum, this is a very risky proposition for him, because it ensures he dies after syllo flips town. You agree with that? Now my question is, why would scum put themselves at such great risk just to trade 1 for 1 with someone else?
Worst IMO is that two of them die and flip town.
What's stopping me from pushing Cephiro is that the possibility of him having a scum role that benefits from this still exists. Based on the knowledge we have (which isn't much) it is a better proposition to simply straight up kill syllo, because we have no clue what pushing Cephiro will do. however the pushing of syllo relies on the assumption that syllo is scum, which makes Cephiro far more likely to be town. So in that case we should consider Cephiro is actually telling the truth and push him anyway. in other words, since the basic assumption is the same, it may be better to just push Cephiro after all.
Alright, I think this is the solution: we push Cephiro to the item slot. If he gets frozen, we push syllo (we should have enough to push both). Any remaining pushes will go on Tobon AFTER it is confirmed one or both of Cephiro+syllo is dead (hopefully syllo)
If the freezing power exists still, no matter who we push scum will freeze the player and make our efforts fruitless. Thus ultimately I imagine we'd need to push both players. If we push syllo and then scum freeze syllo, we then have to rely on Cephiro getting to the item, but if he's roleblocked at that point we lose even more pushes. If we force a roleblock on Cephiro then we can still pull him back to safety and push someone else toward the fire.
Anyone who does not push according to this plan at this point needs to have a very good reason for it. If you have questions, ask now. I intend for syllo, Bluelightz, and Tobon to all die today.
We can potentially swap Tobon for someone else like mattchew, prpl, or Wiggles, but I'd much rather push Tobon because Nemesis already started a push on him, and he is just as scummy.
On April 05 2012 03:05 wherebugsgo wrote: Alright, I think this is the solution: we push Cephiro to the item slot. If he gets frozen, we push syllo (we should have enough to push both). Any remaining pushes will go on Tobon AFTER it is confirmed one or both of Cephiro+syllo is dead (hopefully syllo)
If the freezing power exists still, no matter who we push scum will freeze the player and make our efforts fruitless. Thus ultimately I imagine we'd need to push both players. If we push syllo and then scum freeze syllo, we then have to rely on Cephiro getting to the item, but if he's roleblocked at that point we lose even more pushes. If we force a roleblock on Cephiro then we can still pull him back to safety and push someone else toward the fire.
Anyone who does not push according to this plan at this point needs to have a very good reason for it. If you have questions, ask now. I intend for syllo, Bluelightz, and Tobon to all die today.
We can potentially swap Tobon for someone else like mattchew, prpl, or Wiggles, but I'd much rather push Tobon because Nemesis already started a push on him, and he is just as scummy.
Here goes nothing.
##push Cephiro
I think I asked in time, but you pushed anyway. Why are you so extremely convinced of Cephiro's townieness? I'm way in favour of just straight lynching. The only thing we miss out on is an item. So bloody what?
I'm taking a risk, a potentially stupid one, but a risk nonetheless.
I am still open to pushing syllo rather than Cephiro and would support that idea. However if syllo is frozen we'll have to end up pushing Cephiro anyway.
I believe Cephiro is far more likely to be town than scum, and because of that I'm actually considering that it might be a better idea just to push him instead of pushing syllo.
Let's go over the 4 possible scenarios:
1. Cephiro is town and syllo scum. Then Cephiro should be telling the truth and we should probably push him because him lying would fuck us.
2. Cephiro is scum and syllo town. Pushing Cephiro to the last spot would allow us to kill him, so we should be pushing him.
3. Cephiro and syllo both scum: doesn't really matter who we push, does it?
4. Cephiro and syllo both town: we should probably be killing risk in this case, (who is notably still missing -_- But honestly I wouldn't put it past him, he's god awful as town) but pushing Cephiro is still a good idea.
In every case pushing Cephiro is beneficial to us.
On April 05 2012 02:46 wherebugsgo wrote: What I can't reconcile though is that rarely are scum so in-your-face as Cephiro is, and if they are they usually cause a lot of disruption. Cephiro doesn't seem to be trolling us or trying to cause disruption, and it's no secret there is a scum between him, syllo, and risk. In addition he has pointed out a couple of things that I don't think scum would have pointed out. It's true that he could be scum, and if he is, he's been playing very well so far.
The thing though is, IF he's scum, this is a very risky proposition for him, because it ensures he dies after syllo flips town. You agree with that? Now my question is, why would scum put themselves at such great risk just to trade 1 for 1 with someone else?
Worst IMO is that two of them die and flip town.
What's stopping me from pushing Cephiro is that the possibility of him having a scum role that benefits from this still exists. Based on the knowledge we have (which isn't much) it is a better proposition to simply straight up kill syllo, because we have no clue what pushing Cephiro will do. however the pushing of syllo relies on the assumption that syllo is scum, which makes Cephiro far more likely to be town. So in that case we should consider Cephiro is actually telling the truth and push him anyway. in other words, since the basic assumption is the same, it may be better to just push Cephiro after all.
Okay, barring some extremely strange circumstance in which risk's roleclaim and the red traffic light are NOT the police car toy from DFM1, Cephiro is confirmed scum if Syllo flips town in any case and I don't think anybody is opposed to killing Syllo here and now. So I don't see how this plan by a scumbag is at all risky.
So you actually wifom'd the wifom out of that in the subsequent part. Did you actually read that? I will condense the second part of your post for you:
1. Cephiro might be scum, which is a reason not to push him and just kill Syllo (okay so far) 2. However, that relies on the assumption that Syllo is scum (err, okay. I disagree. It will confirm him as scum. I think there's probably about 60-70% chance of him being scum at this point) 3. In which case Cephiro is town (errrmmm, okay, probably. You feeling the wifom yet? I am fairly certain that a smart guy would know that I would know that he would put the wine in front of me) 4. BUT THEN Cephiro is telling the TRUTH and he's town (lol, I am seeing Inigo Montoya's pokerface right now) 5. In which case we should comply with his plan (LOOK BEHIND YOU, A three-headed monkey! /switchcups)
It's not WIFOM at all unless you think a town Cephiro would be lying to us.
Pushing Cephiro is no-lose because if he's scum then we need to push him, and if he's town he wouldn't lie about us having to push him
On April 05 2012 03:05 wherebugsgo wrote: Alright, I think this is the solution: we push Cephiro to the item slot. If he gets frozen, we push syllo (we should have enough to push both). Any remaining pushes will go on Tobon AFTER it is confirmed one or both of Cephiro+syllo is dead (hopefully syllo)
If the freezing power exists still, no matter who we push scum will freeze the player and make our efforts fruitless. Thus ultimately I imagine we'd need to push both players. If we push syllo and then scum freeze syllo, we then have to rely on Cephiro getting to the item, but if he's roleblocked at that point we lose even more pushes. If we force a roleblock on Cephiro then we can still pull him back to safety and push someone else toward the fire.
Anyone who does not push according to this plan at this point needs to have a very good reason for it. If you have questions, ask now. I intend for syllo, Bluelightz, and Tobon to all die today.
We can potentially swap Tobon for someone else like mattchew, prpl, or Wiggles, but I'd much rather push Tobon because Nemesis already started a push on him, and he is just as scummy.
Here goes nothing.
##push Cephiro
I think I asked in time, but you pushed anyway. Why are you so extremely convinced of Cephiro's townieness? I'm way in favour of just straight lynching. The only thing we miss out on is an item. So bloody what?
I'm taking a risk, a potentially stupid one, but a risk nonetheless.
I am still open to pushing syllo rather than Cephiro and would support that idea. However if syllo is frozen we'll have to end up pushing Cephiro anyway.
I believe Cephiro is far more likely to be town than scum, and because of that I'm actually considering that it might be a better idea just to push him instead of pushing syllo.
Let's go over the 4 possible scenarios:
1. Cephiro is town and syllo scum. Then Cephiro should be telling the truth and we should probably push him because him lying would fuck us.
2. Cephiro is scum and syllo town. Pushing Cephiro to the last spot would allow us to kill him, so we should be pushing him.
3. Cephiro and syllo both scum: doesn't really matter who we push, does it?
4. Cephiro and syllo both town: we should probably be killing risk in this case, (who is notably still missing -_- But honestly I wouldn't put it past him, he's god awful as town) but pushing Cephiro is still a good idea.
In every case pushing Cephiro is beneficial to us.
You're assuming Cephiro has no ability that requires him to be in the danger zone. How are you so sure about that in cases 2 and 3 (I agree that 4 is unlikely) Cephiro won't do something wicked?
You could make that argument about anyone who is scum, but then how would we actually kill them?
Remember that if Cephiro could do something bad by getting to that zone we'd probably have to deal with it somehow anyway, at some point in the game. He even said he'd be fine with pushing syllo instead.
Occam's razor dictates we should just push him, because in all of the circumstances it's the simplest answer.
Our only problem would be nullfication, but that would happen even if we pushed syllo instead, I'd bet.
Also instead of pushing Tobon, I'd be completely fine with pushing BM instead. He's been on Mattchew-level of inactvity and very well could be scum over Tobon. As Tobon has only one game under his belt it could very well be that his lack of decisiveness is simply due to his newness. This is of course entirely impossible to prove without actually killing the guy, but BM using his PoPs on myself and Snarfs is inexcusable.
On April 05 2012 03:37 wherebugsgo wrote: He chose to use his role.
Also we need your opinion quickly. Please read up :p I'm currently in favor of pushing Cephiro and pulling Bluelightz/BM.
Yeah but he claimed to have no PoP at all when I asked him about if he has no PoP due to using a power or such yesterday. And even if he did that yesterday, he should have PoP today then, unless he has a power that neglects his PoP for the whole game.
You seem fairly sure that he is of no danger to town though, am I right if I say that you have a rolecheck on him or are you just speculating?
No, I'm not sure at all and right now because he is confused why we are focusing on Bluelightz he actually looks fairly scummy.
Layabout you need to explain yourself, and probably also explain why you are defending BM right now rather than letting BM talk for himself. Why are you wondering why Bluelightz is taking pulls?
On April 05 2012 03:05 wherebugsgo wrote: Alright, I think this is the solution: we push Cephiro to the item slot. If he gets frozen, we push syllo (we should have enough to push both). Any remaining pushes will go on Tobon AFTER it is confirmed one or both of Cephiro+syllo is dead (hopefully syllo)
If the freezing power exists still, no matter who we push scum will freeze the player and make our efforts fruitless. Thus ultimately I imagine we'd need to push both players. If we push syllo and then scum freeze syllo, we then have to rely on Cephiro getting to the item, but if he's roleblocked at that point we lose even more pushes. If we force a roleblock on Cephiro then we can still pull him back to safety and push someone else toward the fire.
Anyone who does not push according to this plan at this point needs to have a very good reason for it. If you have questions, ask now. I intend for syllo, Bluelightz, and Tobon to all die today.
We can potentially swap Tobon for someone else like mattchew, prpl, or Wiggles, but I'd much rather push Tobon because Nemesis already started a push on him, and he is just as scummy.
Here goes nothing.
##push Cephiro
I think I asked in time, but you pushed anyway. Why are you so extremely convinced of Cephiro's townieness? I'm way in favour of just straight lynching. The only thing we miss out on is an item. So bloody what?
I'm taking a risk, a potentially stupid one, but a risk nonetheless.
I am still open to pushing syllo rather than Cephiro and would support that idea. However if syllo is frozen we'll have to end up pushing Cephiro anyway.
I believe Cephiro is far more likely to be town than scum, and because of that I'm actually considering that it might be a better idea just to push him instead of pushing syllo.
Let's go over the 4 possible scenarios:
1. Cephiro is town and syllo scum. Then Cephiro should be telling the truth and we should probably push him because him lying would fuck us.
2. Cephiro is scum and syllo town. Pushing Cephiro to the last spot would allow us to kill him, so we should be pushing him.
3. Cephiro and syllo both scum: doesn't really matter who we push, does it?
4. Cephiro and syllo both town: we should probably be killing risk in this case, (who is notably still missing -_- But honestly I wouldn't put it past him, he's god awful as town) but pushing Cephiro is still a good idea.
In every case pushing Cephiro is beneficial to us.
You're assuming Cephiro has no ability that requires him to be in the danger zone. How are you so sure about that in cases 2 and 3 (I agree that 4 is unlikely) Cephiro won't do something wicked?
You could make that argument about anyone who is scum, but then how would we actually kill them?
Remember that if Cephiro could do something bad by getting to that zone we'd probably have to deal with it somehow anyway, at some point in the game. He even said he'd be fine with pushing syllo instead.
Occam's razor dictates we should just push him, because in all of the circumstances it's the simplest answer.
Our only problem would be nullfication, but that would happen even if we pushed syllo instead, I'd bet.
Well, we could always pull him off the bottom. Anyway. You're making some sense now. I'm gonna go shopping and read Cephiro's filter again when I get back. I still don't think I'll help out, but I'll try to give the plan another shot and try to read it without paranoid glasses. More people whose judgement I trust posting would also help.
You're right, we could pull him, but I'd rather consolidate our pulls on Bluelightz.
On April 05 2012 05:23 risk.nuke wrote: wbg I'm just actively lurking, haha <3
Don't worry though, I have a plan!
what's this plan?
Nemesis can you hold your push or push now before anyone else does? I'd rather you save your push for an emergency actually, to say, push someone other than Cephiro.
On April 05 2012 01:11 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm at a cafe on my phone having breakfast (weird for me actually) but this is oddly relaxing.
Wait wtf Wiggles is suddenly against lynching Bluelightz?
What's with the meek response Wiggles? Why do you not want to see him flip immediately? You claim we should use our PoPs on other people but don't even offer one to begin with. The hell?
Bluelightz I really don't see how you could be town. If you actually are town you must be deficient of about 3/4 of the brain cells everyone else possesses, for reasons already mentioned several times (I.e. The position 24 bull)
Why do you want to see him die immediately, especially since apparently the OP says that flips don't show up until the end of the day?
When I saw that the queue was hidden today, I changed my mind a bit about Bluelightz. It doesn't make sense for him to claim his role, if he had foreknowledge that the queue would be hidden the next day. Not claiming his role, would have let him use his power and blow up potentially four townies, without us knowing anything about it, especially if scum can see the queue. If scum can't see the queue as well, then they wouldn't have used his power in the first place, since they can blow up from it themselves.
At this point, we're limited in lynching by the number of pushes/pulls we have to pull people to the ends. This is especially exacerbated when we have people wanting to go for the item each day. This makes it so we have even less pushes and pulls to actually kill scum.
So, in my mind, I'm willing to take the risk of leaving bluelightz alive today. If he lies about his bombs, we kill him instantly. If he's telling the truth, then we can get him to use his power again, and that will free up a lot of our pushes and pulls for other uses, like the items, or just killing a couple more people, since we can pull targets to the two bombed spots if they're close instead of all the way to the end of the queue. This would be for people who are not priority flips, but who we think are scummy enough to die.
WBG, can you give me some concrete reasons for needing to flip bluelightz as soon as possible? So far you've just been running under your initial reason of him running away when pressured, but I haven't really seen much else since then, besides you calling him scum.
On April 04 2012 22:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Has anybody claimed the kill on Palmar or Shrubbles yet? This is important to me. If you shot one of Palmar/Shrubbles, and haven't claimed yet, please do so. I won't be mad. I promise.
Hi guys, I'm mafia fishing for a vigilante so I can shoot him tonight, but I won't be mad. I promise!!!
Don't be silly. Firstly, most vigilantes are one-shot. Secondly, if this one isn't, we don't know that, so he could just claim one shot. So, why would I fish for what's essentially a VT now? Next, they need to claim their shot, or else I'm just going off the assumption that it was a scum kill, which changes how this played out.
Shrubbles being shot by a vig makes sense, but him being shot by scum has some interesting implications. If we assume that there was a scum between Ceph, Syllo, and Shrubbles, then why would scum shoot Shrubbles? He was considered most suspicious after Syllo among the three, so if Syllo was the scum, then you're only hastening his death. If Ceph is the scum, then you ensure that Syllo will flip, though it lets us know that Ceph is the scum quicker as well. If there's no scum among the three, mafia know this, and shooting Shrubbles makes sure that we most likely lynch Syllo, and if he flips town, Ceph. Basically, it sends us on a wild goose chase.
Can anyone answer why scum would shoot shrubbles when there's basically a list check that you're shortening by killing him? The only reasons I can think of, are that we're looking at the wrong person (syllo), or there isn't really a scum between the three of them. This is especially true considering the check doesn't confirm people as town, so lynching a scum out of them does nothing to clear the other ones, so it's not like scum had to worry about DT-checked townies or something like that.
That no one actually questioned the kills is concerning.
key points:
Bluelightz's only defense of himself was "I'm town and this is a bad idea."
Bluelightz has not attempted to find scum and he has not attempted to even play this game. I see no reason to leave him alive.
The Bluelightz pulls have been coming in incredibly slowly and there has been resistance to it despite several players displaying stronger convictions earlier in the game. Players additionally keep moving to other subjects.
I want to have him killed sooner than later because it will allow us to consolidate our pulls on someone else afterward; either in case of an emergency, or to kill someone (such as syllo or Tobon) because Cephiro fails or something like that.
As for whether scum shot sbrubbles or not, sure, it's possible. If scum shot sbrubbles then there's a strong chance risk is the scum and not either of syllo or Cephiro. How do we find out though? We can't really, unless we kill one of them. We have no idea whether scum shot Sbrubbles or Sbrubbles died for other reasons. Maybe scum shot Sbrubbles and a town vig shot Palmar! Sure, it's less likely, but its still possible, right? See how fruitless these types of discussions are?
Sbrubbles could have tried to protect Palmar and then could've died like that. Let's find out if that's possible!
If a medic targets the mirror toy, will it result in the medic's death?
Lastly, why are you concerned that no one speculated about the night kills when we already considered the possibilities you brought up? You aren't the first to attempt to address those concerns, and certainly you don't advance the discussion by acting as if we're in a dire situation of sorts because we aren't considering all the possibilities.
Trying to speculate why Bluelightz would claim his role as scum or town is as equally fruitless as trying to figure out who shot whom last night. I can think of a great reason that doesn't depend on his alignment, and that's that Bluelightz is stupid.
On April 03 2012 00:40 Bluelightz wrote: Also, I seem to have misunderstood my role PM, so, 1 of 3 positions that will. Be announced with the day post will be booby trapped, the positions are randomized.
The lie is here.
I see no reason for anyone as town to ever use this role. If I got this role myself I would not use it unless I was scum.
As scum sometimes it's easier to claim your actual role instead of faking it under pressure, which could potentially explain why he would claim it as scum. Who knows at any rate; Bluelightz has long enough played against a town wincon this game that he should die.
At this point I have no clue why layabout or wiggles are defending bluelightz, but the change of heart in layabout particularly intrigues me.
On April 04 2012 09:49 MrZentor wrote: First I'll discuss why we didn't get anything done the first day, then how we should fix it, and finally, who to kill.
The first half of the day went pretty well. We discussed how we should vote, if Palmar should get the item, and a few suspicions. It started to fall apart when some people started pulling Palmar to the item before we had decided if that was a good idea. The second day was chaos. There were tons of roleclaims. People wasted their PoPs. Risk.nuke said at least one of sbrubbles, syllogism, and Cephiro was scum. Palmar got stuck at the top. The town got together and saved Palmar at the cost some PoPs. They tried to lynch the three people risk.nuke had said, but because they couldn't decide on who to kill, it was a no lynch. Finally, mafia got VE into the redzone. Now the mafia have another kill, and we don't have much information.
We need to decide on what people we're going to kill before we start pushing them, so no PoPs get wasted. In fact, I don't want to see any PoPs on the first half of the day unless you're sure you won't be able to be there during the second half of the day, or we agreed to use some PoPs to get the item or to confirm a role claim. A PoP is best used near the end of the day, because it's when you have to most information.
I probably sound like a huge hypocrite saying this when I didn't use my PoPs yesterday, but I had planned on being able to get on the computer yesterday, and the events that arose were unforeseeable.
Of cephiro, syllogism, and sbrubbles, cephiro seems the most innocent. He has been extremely active and has been very cooperative. His overreaction to the idea of Palmar getting the item is a little suspicious.
Sbrubbles started by lurking, but recently he has been active and made some good posts.
Syllogism is the scummiest. He threw away his vote and spent several pages bickering with WBG.
Right now I'm a little suspicious of Tobon; I'll probably post a case on him when I've had more time to digest the information.
On April 05 2012 07:37 Acrofales wrote: @WBG: all of this from a guy who (rightfully) insists on consolidating pops. Current suspects are, unless I am missing something: Syllo (and pushes on Cephiro to get Syllo), Bluelightz, Tobon, BillMurray (although I disagree, I just think he's dumb), Mattchew and MrZentor. I personally wouldn't mind seeing MrWiggles in that list too.
Seeing as there's only 5 scum and we cannot possibly hope to lynch all those people today, MIND CONSOLIDATING?
Votes have already been cast on Syllo (by way of Cephiro, assuming that pans out) and Bluelightz. I personally think those are pretty good votes (although I still think we should just have straight up lynched Syllo).
Given that any lynch today requires us to push someone completely off the queue to ensure a kill, we should really focus on one target at a time (or one for pushing and one for pulling).
Discussing other targets seems fine, but at this point please don't consider poping them.
Yes, consolidating on Bluelightz (what do you think I've been trying to do?)
I'm discussing other players because once we kill Bluelightz we can potentially kill another player.
I agree with you that there are too many suspects. There are clearly some dumb people in this town. I can't figure out whether wiggles is being malicious or whether he's just not putting enough effort in. For most of the game I have considered him town, though. Players like Zentor and Bluelightz are legitimately capable of being bad. There's not much difference between the two, to be honest.
Mattchew looks like scum, particularly because he played completely differently in GoT. I don't think he is just having a bad game.
In the remaining players we have prplhz who is looking more town simply because the rest of the players are looking worse. Wouldn't count him out yet though, and if syllo flips scum he'll be the first I'll go after.
If syllo/prpl are scum that leaves 3 out of these players, IMO:
mattchew, bluelightz, zentor, tobon, BM.
We just need flips. Consolidating does not mean we only need to flip one person today. We can flip two and it'll be great.
There are several townies in this game who are not pulling their fair share. You know who you are; if I consider you to be scummy at this point and you're actually town you're probably one of them.
People who need to stop fucking around if they are town:
mattchew, cascades, bluelightz, BM, MrZentor
The chance that all of you are scum is incredibly marginal, so please, whichever ones of you are town, step it up and try to help find the scum.
I'd rather push syllo all the way over than leave him in the incineration zone, I agree.
Rather than risk not having a flip, I'd like it if we know for sure he's going to die.
As for pulls, we might want to discuss those in depth because now that things have been reset we can actually pull someone other than Bluelightz if we want. I still think Bluelightz needs to die, but one can easily make a case for MrZentor, mattchew, and cascades particularly.
On April 05 2012 18:12 Dirkzor wrote: I'm just not sure about BL because both Zentor and Mattchew want him dead too... And I have a nagging feeling that BL would do this as town aswell.
yeah, I'm having the feeling that he isn't bothering to read the thread and he's just derping around because he has role and wants to use it.
It seems rather odd that the lights would go out after he chose to use the role. I suppose scum could have tried to make him look worse through that. I dunno, I've been thinking about that whole thing a lot and it's rather difficult for me to say whether BL is actually scum, because I don't know exactly how to differentiate between bad play and scum play.
The problem with leaving him alive is that he actually doesn't do anything. That's exactly how he played as scum. Perhaps if that's just his general style we can't do anything until we've flipped a scum and we have the luxury of coming back to him.
I'll do some rereading when I wake up in the morning. I'm going to look through the posts and see if I can find anything that didn't stand out to me before.
Every time he comes into the thread he says scummy shit and never actually offers town anything. He wants to leave it up to chance whether or not he uses his role tonight after we've all told him he's retarded for using it in the first place. He's obsessed with having his role confirmed when no one cares about his role but rather the fact that he chose to use it at all!
Sure, he could very well be the worst townies in existence, but we'll never know till he dies and he's going to wreck town discussion till then because he does nothing but bitch, moan, and act stupid.
Bluelightz says he'll "flip a coin" which is just phenomenally stupid if he's town. The only reason he would say that is if he wanted some excuse not to get lynched tomorrow.
I mean think about it, even the dumbest of townies would say, oh, you guys didn't want that, guess I won't use my power tonight.
On April 06 2012 06:21 wherebugsgo wrote: Pull Bluelightz and kill him please.
Every time he comes into the thread he says scummy shit and never actually offers town anything. He wants to leave it up to chance whether or not he uses his role tonight after we've all told him he's retarded for using it in the first place. He's obsessed with having his role confirmed when no one cares about his role but rather the fact that he chose to use it at all!
Sure, he could very well be the worst townies in existence, but we'll never know till he dies and he's going to wreck town discussion till then because he does nothing but bitch, moan, and act stupid.
Just kill him.
check the bolded, for instance WBG admitted bluelightz is town yet again the funny thing is, what he's doing is pretty pro-town it seems, but I set this trap days ago, and he just fell in. It's really funny that I already saw a slip from him, but he just fell to one of my traps
I pushed what he just said in the bolded. I pushed a policy lynch on BL to see if scum would bite on it on that policy. He just bit.
I'm happy with my push on WBG, I can't take into account what Palmar may or may not have done, for instance. I can only play to what I know of the mechanics when the lights are off.
WBG is scum
Are you seriously this bad as town or did you roll scum yet again?
Here Tobon gets hulk-smashed up 3 spaces by Nemesis, Bluelightz is pulled to position 6, prplhz is pulled by Bluelightz, I am pushed once by BM, and Snarfs is pulled once by BM. Cephiro is pushed four times into the red zone and is nullified right before he can get to the item at position 20.
At this point the board is reset to its original setting by Tobon.
Now, syllo is pushed four times and bluelightz is pulled three times before the next major event happens: syllo gets the item.
From there syllo is pushed an additional five times, bringing him back to his starting position, and Bluelightz is pulled down all the way to position 4, and Wiggles is pushed once (while Bluelightz or syllo is in position 11) to position 12, bringing us to the final positions we see:
In recap, we should have never gone with the Cephiro plan, but it's okay because the only way syllo would have known to teleport to layabout (the last player in the queue) is if he was scum.
Right, so how do you explain the announcement of the item being picked up after Snarfs pushed you, followed by layabout magically finding himself in position 22 (one after the item) with you in the middle of the queue despite being pushed something like 10 times?
On April 09 2012 13:34 Ace wrote: If Town wants to forfeit just PM me. If over half of you vote to quit I'll end the game in Scum's favor. Honestly you guys are just too bad to even attempt to play this game. Imo you should just quit now and save me the time of having to read this shit.
layabout I'm still mad that you chose to shoot sbrubbles over syllo when I straight up said syllo was more likely to be scum. Why ask for my reads if you don't care about them -_-
It was sooo fucking difficult to get reads together when at one point I thought the entire player base was against me. VE and Palmar dying cycle 1 = 17 scum vs 1 town. gg.
I actually wanted so badly to shoot directly to my side on day 2. I had a reflex instinct to just do it right when Tobon used his reset power (and if I'm not mistaken I would have hit scum, just by pure, blind luck)
and good god don't play in a game if you're not going to do shit.
Middle of day 2 you come in and say the fucking scummiest shit in the world because you clearly don't give a fuck about the game and it causes townies who actually are playing to think you're scum. It throws reads off.
EDIT: This goes to bill murray as well, my god you were terrible and I wanted to kill you so many times
What frustrates me about dumb townies is that they allow scum to do things and escape unscathed.
Bluelightz was so stupid that despite me finding Nemesis's hulk smash suspicious, I let it go because I was clouded by dumb plays abound. I should probably keep in mind that scum tend to be a lot more careful than town in that regard.
Generally if townies just use their brains scum hunting becomes so much easier. Look at any games that were town blowouts and you'll see this is true; PYP interesting, the C9++ mini I hosted, and L come to mind.