Newbie Mini Mafia II - Page 25

On January 07 2012 17:01 CatsnHats wrote:
@Prob forgot about your question but it's 3 AM here so I'm going to bed. will answer when I get up and re-read filters.

On January 08 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote:


This is the biggest pile of WIFOM I've ever seen in my life.

You still haven't responded to me, so as soon as you finish "re-reading their posts thoroughly", please post your findings AND respond to my post.




I'll wait to see Sheth's response and how he reacts to make my read, although Prob's case makes sense.




Null read on Sheth (until now at least), and Town read on Cephiro.


Also people, what do we do regarding Xeris/Gretorp? Just wait?

On January 07 2012 17:19 Blurry wrote:
I've been trying to figure out why someone would target Tunkeg rather than someone like Probulous (posted the most analysis and was one of the most assertive players thus far). I think this could potentially tell us certain things.

Probulous posted his reads on all the players in the game categorizing them by who he thought was town/neutral/mafia. While this does not make him seem any more scummy. My instinct on this is that a player who is mafia is categorized by him as being town and this cover would be useful to the mafia in some way.

My other thought is that Tunkeg was pressuring someone that was mafia in a way that made him the biggest threat. He was pressuring Gonzaw and Cephiro and also did a little bit on Sheth. Since Cephiro was already cast under so much suspicion by Probulous I infer that there is a high chance that either Gonzaw or Sheth, or both are scum and am going to re-read their posts thoroughly. My initial instinct is that Sheth is the more likely candidate as he has literally posted zero analysis and has simply pressured or challenged peoples points rather than helping us weed out scum.

On January 07 2012 10:30 AnxiousHippo wrote:
I'm working on the bandwagon analysis

On January 08 2012 10:19 Probulous wrote:


Gonz man, what the hell is this shit? You call others out for wishy-washy play but then post this contortion. You think my case makes sense but Sheth's response will tell you more? If the case is solid, nothing Sheth says should change your mind. He can always cast doubt on what I have written.

I could forgive you for that, Ceph's defense for example shows what happens when a townie gets a case brought against him. But what is the null read (until now at least) Is he null or not? You either are waiting for more info (null case) or you think he is mafia (until now case). How can you have both positions in the same sentence?

Would you be willing to lynch Sheth?

On January 07 2012 23:27 Probulous wrote:


First things first, I am sorry guys I failed you yesterday. I put together my cases and was part of the lynching of the innocent CookierMaker who was also proficient in the art of tea-making. I was wrong.

Ok, I'm back and have time to talk. Why are you discrediting yourself here? We know you were wrong, we were wrong too.

Worse still I had a null read on Sheth. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice ... Not likely

Your likely to not get fooled twice? You've been using good logic and sounding townie, but why do you say this?

Here is Sheth's filter. I will be posting most quotes old school otherwise this will be too long. So here we go.

My initial suspicion of Sheth was raised when he let Cats off the hook for a shitty reason linky. He is the first to identify a particular person for scummy play but immediately backs off? If you thought Cats was posted badly then puts the pressure on him to stop. By undermining his own stance with " I'm picking on you for no real reason" Sheth provides an escape for Cats. My belief it was in the hope that no-one really noticed and would drop the subject.

I picked on Cats to get a read on him. I let off him for a little while true. However I still think its obvious Cats is playing this like a newb. Not nessecarily a mafia or a town newb, but I don't get why waiting a little bit on him and going on my more solid read of Cephiro was bad. Its what you did too.

This is my response to Cats and you can the difference in tone. I want him to actually change and I stand by my position.

You keep him in your scum list, but you don't keep pressuring him. You just act meaner to a guy who is acting newb. This is the sort of non-stop pressure that almost caused him to try and "lynch" himself. I still don't think Cats is mafia based on his posts and what not. However I obviously want to keep pressure on him. Thats what I've been saying this whole time, but now I'm stuck responding to these posts.

Unfortunately no-else noted this at this point in time. Luckily for town Sheth had promised a revelation in the morning. Well this is the revelation (Linky for context). Here is the meat of it



Fluff

Its fluff, but I'm trying to encourage Gretorp to post some. Pretty sure you've asked him to post more as well?



Here we have something that looks fine at first glance but upon rereading makes no sense. As town, you want people to participate, you want information, any information. Pressure is what produces responses and responses produce things to find scum with. If you aren't pressuring everyone who are you pressuring and how can you be sure they are mafia? Choosing one person to focus on means you give mafia (at this stage) and 10/12 chance of not-being lynched. Who chooses who is the person to face the pressure anyway? No this gives mafia too much space to hide and is a really scummy post.

Joke? You did the SAME THING YOU JUST ACCUSED ME OFF! You started putting pressure on Cephiro and just kept it on him. Thats exactly what my post there was trying to get us to do. Besides my post is exactly what your doing now on me as well. Forcing EVERYONE in this thread to comment on me. Your logic here is just fluff, I wasn't saying to "just pick one person to lynch", but to pick one person to pressure. Your either intentionally reading this wrong or just trying to add something to your case that has no point being here.

This is clearly mafia motivated. You assume we won't have any reads on day 1, implying we shouldn't bother. How can anyone prove they are not mafia on day 1? By being proactive and providing new information.Focusing on one person gives mafia an easy excuse to sheep.

Thanks for pointing out the same reason we don't do RNG. I wasn't implying we just pick on one person the whole day. Just that we go after one person with some REAL pressure. We started day 1 putting too little pressure on people, this was my way of saying people like Cats / Xeris won't be able to get away with more bad posts. As this is a newbie mafia game I think going after anyone who makes an small mistake at the first is stupid. Thats how we end up lynching all of the worst players first, while the mafia kills the best and we are left with the middle. I'm going off topic here..



Firstly note the use of the word "leaning". He states before his case that it is weak and only meant as faint pressure. This undermines his point before he even starts. Sheth points out an obviously bad post (one which i had been arguing with Ceph about all day 1). Ceph had already acknowledged the stats meant nothing so there isn't any point in regurgitating the argument now. But even if Sheth thought it was scummy, he doesn't say so. No it's weird. Casting doubt without actually calling him out.

Leaning, pressure same thing? You can lean on someone until they die here sir. It shouldn't undermine my point at all, as I said I was "planning on it" and I actually never did. My post defending Ceph here wasn't the best. I can admit that as I let him off the hook there. However I was planning on going over his posts in depth and going back on him, I just said I'd give what I had in the morning, and things had changed in the morning so I posted just a basic well I don't know, this post looks good. Which, without looking too indepth into it, it did look good. I call him out later and add points and help your case on him. I stand by my case that Cephiro still looks scummy, while you've now called him almost confirmed town in one of your recent posts.




Apparently this means that Sheth doesn't need to "lean" on Cephiro anymore. That terrible analysis which has some negatives (we never hear what they are) is enough for Sheth to back off. Essentially you undermine your case which is a repeat of our discussions from day 1 and then dismiss it because he posted his analysis which you say has negatives but won't tell us what they are.

Your point here is wrong on the timeline. I posted this before you had posted anything on him, and I explain it above. Quit trying to say I do this twice, its just wrong.

Talk about wishy-washy. Again, this is casting suspicion without making it clear. A mafia would not want to call out someone who could defend themselves well. Much better to push a weak case and hope it catches fire.

Given my DAy 1 read it is a tad ironic that Cephiro was the first to pick this up (linky) but he deserves credit for it. Tunk (bless his townie soul) picked up Sheth's terrible reasoning for focusing on a single player (linky). Jitsu pointed out that Sheth was hyping his possible analysis but then failed to deliver (linky). So far that is three people (based on my current reads) that are either green or looking greeny, that have noted Sheth's scummy play.

At this stage the only people he has targeted have been Cats and Cephiro both of which he has let off the hook.

He was not suspicious of Cephiro at this point

He did not post anything after backing down on his "case" against Cephiro and yet as soon as he comes back to thread and has read my analysis this is his post in full



Note how he twists Cephiro's words here. He says he changed his opinion partly due to other people's good reasoning. Sheth turns that into following people blindly. There is nothing wrong with following good reasoning. You should, that is logical, much better than following bad reasoning. But Sheth makes it look like Ceph is just sheeping.

Don't you think he just followed the train on CookieMaker? Clearly our reasoning on him WASNT good reasoning. Maybe your not perfect with your reasoning? You also sheeped onto CM, and I did too. I'm clearly not saying "don't listen to good reasoning". And Ceph was sheeping? Your just adding more things onto your posts so its a HUGE wall of text and people will just assume that every point is good, and maybe not read it thorougly.



Here we have his subtle linkage on Cephiro's possible flip and my alignment. Note the word use " We can completely tell about Probulous being town or not". By Sheth's thinking if Ceph was town I had to be mafia. This would be really beneficial to Sheth because he knows Ceph is town, which means he can hopefully get me lynched when Ceph flips green. Hell no you can't. Unfortunately this distracted me and I have "words" with Sheth. Note how he immediately assumes I might die night one. Well I didn't, Tunk did. One of the few that called him out on his back-pedalling.

This is stupid. I geuss not using commas should get me killed. "We can completely tell about Probulous being town, or not (or nothing at all)". I didn't mean we can tell if hes town or mafia. Just that there is no reason mafia would so heavily start a train onone of their own on the first night. YOU even agree with me later on after we "have words".

But then the best bit, Cephiro goes from being Sheth's second read to nothing to highest scum read based on MY analysis. Note he has added nothing here except a weird twisting of Ceph's words to make a point that doesn't make sense. To me this reads like someone desperate to look like they had Ceph as their target all along. Sheth never says that his reasoning is based on my case, in fact he never mentions what his reasoning is.

This is the best bit? The fact that I havn't flip flopped off of him. First you call me out for not pressrue Cats /Cephiro enough and now your saying I'm doing it too much. And also I said your reasoning helped out my own I'm pretty sure. And I'm also sure I posted what my reasoning on Cephiro was. You're simply not reading and adding more to this huge text bomb of your logic.

This is my post on Cephiro in its entirety, you seemingly didn't even look at this one.




At this point Sheth and I wonder off into diversion land about whether Ceph's flip says anything about my alignment. There isn't much there except in this post Sheth makes a big boo-boo.



Read that first sentence again. Way to pump the team Mr Sheth. At this point, we may be against the odds but not heavily so. Unless of course you are Mafia in which case you know we won't be lynching red. He follows this gem with Xeris being REALLY pro-town.

I'm posting a fact. We didn't lynch mafia first turn. Its more harmful to town if we all assume we'll lynch mafia round one and then we don't and everyone is discouraged. Also this post was made out of this timeline as well. It was one of my earlier posts. I've also recently posted what I feel about Xeris, and how he'll probably still be modkilled/replaced so I don't know why you'd quote an old post thats sense changed.

Xeris had been seriously absent and then appeared with random comments about RNG and basically trashed all analysis done to date. He had (has) done nothing for this town and hasn't even hinted at being suspicious of someone. There is nothing pro-town about his play but Sheth is quick to defend him. OK, you're mates I get it, but why Xeris over Gretorp. At least Gretorp pointed out Cephiro waffling, that was a damn site more than xeris but no Xeris is REALLY pro-town. I don't like lynching lurkers but when Sheth flips red I bet Xeris will too.

This is horrible logic. Your logic has just been way off recently. Xeris' post just seemed townie at the time. Gretorps did as well, and I've explained about Xeris too much. And if you'd known Xeris in RL you'd understand. I really wish Gretorp would come on and explain this sometime, but sense hes apparently always afk your just bringing up a point I can't verify. I don't like how your taking something that I can bring to town (my knowledge of both of them in Real life) and trying to point it out as invalid. You think my one post of defending Xeris makes him mafia if I am? You've just created a lot of text here again, that doesn't say anything.

The next post of consequence from Sheth is this beauty. Where he claims allegiance to Xeris because he played real life games with him.

quote]Well, the Xeris thing is based completely on the fact that I know him really well IRL and we've played mafia a bunch before. He is really bad mafia. Like he'd be lurking and mod killed if he was mafia.

And his posts about why he doesn't want to lynch someone this day are what I initially thought too when I went from IRL games to forum posts. So just the fact that he is usually terrible as mafia and whenever hes used that excuse in the past hes always been town + hes playing just how I imagine a townie Xeris playing gives me a good read. Hes one of the only two I know IRL, so its easier for me to get a read on him then the rest of you.

2) If you were a Doc (could save someone from a nightkill), who would you save and why? I would save one of Probulous, Myself, Gonzaw and Tunkeg.

On January 07 2012 23:27 Probulous wrote:


First things first, I am sorry guys I failed you yesterday. I put together my cases and was part of the lynching of the innocent CookierMaker who was also proficient in the art of tea-making. I was wrong.

Ok, I'm back and have time to talk. Why are you discrediting yourself here? We know you were wrong, we were wrong too.

Worse still I had a null read on Sheth. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice ... Not likely

Your likely to not get fooled twice? You've been using good logic and sounding townie, but why do you say this?

Here is Sheth's filter. I will be posting most quotes old school otherwise this will be too long. So here we go.

My initial suspicion of Sheth was raised when he let Cats off the hook for a shitty reason linky. He is the first to identify a particular person for scummy play but immediately backs off? If you thought Cats was posted badly then puts the pressure on him to stop. By undermining his own stance with " I'm picking on you for no real reason" Sheth provides an escape for Cats. My belief it was in the hope that no-one really noticed and would drop the subject.

I picked on Cats to get a read on him. I let off him for a little while true. However I still think its obvious Cats is playing this like a newb. Not nessecarily a mafia or a town newb, but I don't get why waiting a little bit on him and going on my more solid read of Cephiro was bad. Its what you did too.

This is my response to Cats and you can the difference in tone. I want him to actually change and I stand by my position.

You keep him in your scum list, but you don't keep pressuring him. You just act meaner to a guy who is acting newb. This is the sort of non-stop pressure that almost caused him to try and "lynch" himself. I still don't think Cats is mafia based on his posts and what not. However I obviously want to keep pressure on him. Thats what I've been saying this whole time, but now I'm stuck responding to these posts.

Unfortunately no-else noted this at this point in time. Luckily for town Sheth had promised a revelation in the morning. Well this is the revelation (Linky for context). Here is the meat of it



Fluff

Its fluff, but I'm trying to encourage Gretorp to post some. Pretty sure you've asked him to post more as well?



Here we have something that looks fine at first glance but upon rereading makes no sense. As town, you want people to participate, you want information, any information. Pressure is what produces responses and responses produce things to find scum with. If you aren't pressuring everyone who are you pressuring and how can you be sure they are mafia? Choosing one person to focus on means you give mafia (at this stage) and 10/12 chance of not-being lynched. Who chooses who is the person to face the pressure anyway? No this gives mafia too much space to hide and is a really scummy post.

Joke? You did the SAME THING YOU JUST ACCUSED ME OF! You started putting pressure on Cephiro and just kept it on him. Thats exactly what my post there was trying to get us to do. Besides my post is exactly what your doing now on me as well. Forcing EVERYONE in this thread to comment on me. Your logic here is just fluff, I wasn't saying to "just pick one person to lynch", but to pick one person to pressure. Your either intentionally reading this wrong or just trying to add something to your case that has no point being here.

This is clearly mafia motivated. You assume we won't have any reads on day 1, implying we shouldn't bother. How can anyone prove they are not mafia on day 1? By being proactive and providing new information.Focusing on one person gives mafia an easy excuse to sheep.

Thanks for pointing out the same reason we don't do RNG. I wasn't implying we just pick on one person the whole day. Just that we go after one person with some REAL pressure. We started day 1 putting too little pressure on people, this was my way of saying people like Cats / Xeris won't be able to get away with more bad posts. As this is a newbie mafia game I think going after anyone who makes an small mistake at the first is stupid. Thats how we end up lynching all of the worst players first, while the mafia kills the best and we are left with the middle. I'm going off topic here..



Firstly note the use of the word "leaning". He states before his case that it is weak and only meant as faint pressure. This undermines his point before he even starts. Sheth points out an obviously bad post (one which i had been arguing with Ceph about all day 1). Ceph had already acknowledged the stats meant nothing so there isn't any point in regurgitating the argument now. But even if Sheth thought it was scummy, he doesn't say so. No it's weird. Casting doubt without actually calling him out.

Leaning, pressure same thing? You can lean on someone until they die here sir. It shouldn't undermine my point at all, as I said I was "planning on it" and I actually never did. My post defending Ceph here wasn't the best. I can admit that as I let him off the hook there. However I was planning on going over his posts in depth and going back on him, I just said I'd give what I had in the morning, and things had changed in the morning so I posted just a basic well I don't know, this post looks good. Which, without looking too indepth into it, it did look good. I call him out later and add points and help your case on him. I stand by my case that Cephiro still looks scummy, while you've now called him almost confirmed town in one of your recent posts.




Apparently this means that Sheth doesn't need to "lean" on Cephiro anymore. That terrible analysis which has some negatives (we never hear what they are) is enough for Sheth to back off. Essentially you undermine your case which is a repeat of our discussions from day 1 and then dismiss it because he posted his analysis which you say has negatives but won't tell us what they are.

Your point here is wrong on the timeline. I posted this before you had posted anything on him, and I explain it above. Quit trying to say I do this twice, its just wrong.

Talk about wishy-washy. Again, this is casting suspicion without making it clear. A mafia would not want to call out someone who could defend themselves well. Much better to push a weak case and hope it catches fire.

Given my DAy 1 read it is a tad ironic that Cephiro was the first to pick this up (linky) but he deserves credit for it. Tunk (bless his townie soul) picked up Sheth's terrible reasoning for focusing on a single player (linky). Jitsu pointed out that Sheth was hyping his possible analysis but then failed to deliver (linky). So far that is three people (based on my current reads) that are either green or looking greeny, that have noted Sheth's scummy play.

At this stage the only people he has targeted have been Cats and Cephiro both of which he has let off the hook.

He was not suspicious of Cephiro at this point

He did not post anything after backing down on his "case" against Cephiro and yet as soon as he comes back to thread and has read my analysis this is his post in full



Note how he twists Cephiro's words here. He says he changed his opinion partly due to other people's good reasoning. Sheth turns that into following people blindly. There is nothing wrong with following good reasoning. You should, that is logical, much better than following bad reasoning. But Sheth makes it look like Ceph is just sheeping.

Don't you think he just followed the train on CookieMaker? Clearly our reasoning on him WASNT good reasoning. Maybe your not perfect with your reasoning? You also sheeped onto CM, and I did too. I'm clearly not saying "don't listen to good reasoning". And Ceph was sheeping? Your just adding more things onto your posts so its a HUGE wall of text and people will just assume that every point is good, and maybe not read it thorougly.



Here we have his subtle linkage on Cephiro's possible flip and my alignment. Note the word use " We can completely tell about Probulous being town or not". By Sheth's thinking if Ceph was town I had to be mafia. This would be really beneficial to Sheth because he knows Ceph is town, which means he can hopefully get me lynched when Ceph flips green. Hell no you can't. Unfortunately this distracted me and I have "words" with Sheth. Note how he immediately assumes I might die night one. Well I didn't, Tunk did. One of the few that called him out on his back-pedalling.

This is stupid. I geuss not using commas should get me killed. "We can completely tell about Probulous being town, or not (or nothing at all)". I didn't mean we can tell if hes town or mafia. Just that there is no reason mafia would so heavily start a train onone of their own on the first night. YOU even agree with me later on after we "have words".

But then the best bit, Cephiro goes from being Sheth's second read to nothing to highest scum read based on MY analysis. Note he has added nothing here except a weird twisting of Ceph's words to make a point that doesn't make sense. To me this reads like someone desperate to look like they had Ceph as their target all along. Sheth never says that his reasoning is based on my case, in fact he never mentions what his reasoning is.

This is the best bit? The fact that I havn't flip flopped off of him. First you call me out for not pressrue Cats /Cephiro enough and now your saying I'm doing it too much. And also I said your reasoning helped out my own I'm pretty sure. And I'm also sure I posted what my reasoning on Cephiro was. You're simply not reading and adding more to this huge text bomb of your logic.

This is my post on Cephiro in its entirety, you seemingly didn't even look at this one.




At this point Sheth and I wonder off into diversion land about whether Ceph's flip says anything about my alignment. There isn't much there except in this post Sheth makes a big boo-boo.



Read that first sentence again. Way to pump the team Mr Sheth. At this point, we may be against the odds but not heavily so. Unless of course you are Mafia in which case you know we won't be lynching red. He follows this gem with Xeris being REALLY pro-town.

I'm posting a fact. We didn't lynch mafia first turn. Its more harmful to town if we all assume we'll lynch mafia round one and then we don't and everyone is discouraged. Also this post was made out of this timeline as well. It was one of my earlier posts. I've also recently posted what I feel about Xeris, and how he'll probably still be modkilled/replaced so I don't know why you'd quote an old post thats sense changed.

Xeris had been seriously absent and then appeared with random comments about RNG and basically trashed all analysis done to date. He had (has) done nothing for this town and hasn't even hinted at being suspicious of someone. There is nothing pro-town about his play but Sheth is quick to defend him. OK, you're mates I get it, but why Xeris over Gretorp. At least Gretorp pointed out Cephiro waffling, that was a damn site more than xeris but no Xeris is REALLY pro-town. I don't like lynching lurkers but when Sheth flips red I bet Xeris will too.

This is horrible logic. Your logic has just been way off recently. Xeris' post just seemed townie at the time. Gretorps did as well, and I've explained about Xeris too much. And if you'd known Xeris in RL you'd understand. I really wish Gretorp would come on and explain this sometime, but sense hes apparently always afk your just bringing up a point I can't verify. I don't like how your taking something that I can bring to town (my knowledge of both of them in Real life) and trying to point it out as invalid. You think my one post of defending Xeris makes him mafia if I am? You've just created a lot of text here again, that doesn't say anything.

The next post of consequence from Sheth is this beauty. Where he claims allegiance to Xeris because he played real life games with him.

quote]Well, the Xeris thing is based completely on the fact that I know him really well IRL and we've played mafia a bunch before. He is really bad mafia. Like he'd be lurking and mod killed if he was mafia.

And his posts about why he doesn't want to lynch someone this day are what I initially thought too when I went from IRL games to forum posts. So just the fact that he is usually terrible as mafia and whenever hes used that excuse in the past hes always been town + hes playing just how I imagine a townie Xeris playing gives me a good read. Hes one of the only two I know IRL, so its easier for me to get a read on him then the rest of you.

2) If you were a Doc (could save someone from a nightkill), who would you save and why? I would save one of Probulous, Myself, Gonzaw and Tunkeg.

On January 08 2012 11:23 CatsnHats wrote:
Cephiro really impressed me with the way he defended himself against your analysis. His statistics post people got angry at him for isn't really that big of a deal for me since it was his first post and it's his first game of forum mafia. Ceph was also the first the post a write-up on all the town, although you picked it apart later. I still think that counts for something. He called out Sheth in his defense post for Sheth's wishy washy play, and later pressured me on my terrible play up to that point. His analysis was the reason I made the martyr post. There was no real way for me to defend my play up to the point, and seeing it written up that way I knew I was distracting from catching scum. His analysis is very good, and I hope he gets back from his sports tournament soon because he's an asset to this town. Cephiro is definitely a town read for me.

Sheth endeared himself in my eyes for defending my newb-play in the beginning, and even after my martyr post he still had a town read for me. I'm starting to think that's because he KNOWS I'm town though. Prob's and Jitsu's analysis has definitely cast a black cloud on the nicest guy in esports. He has ghosted on Prob's analysis of Cephiro, basically promising analysis in the morning on someone's that bothered him. Prob posts his Ceph analysis, and then Sheth's like "oh yeah we was mine too." Just seems like he was waiting for someone to post original content so he can ghost it. And the way he has handled the Xeris situation is shady as well.

Sheth is our best case so far, but I'm really holding out hope (albeit a faint one) that Xeris, Gretorp, or AH will talk before the lynch. I will at least do this:
##Unvote: CatsnHats
I'm not going anywhere unless the town or mafia decides it.

On January 05 2012 12:57 Liquid`Sheth wrote:

Also, your crazy to not think that there is no relation between who you analyse and find scummy and whether or not you are scum. If the person we follow along with the most picks 3 town in a row, theres a solid chance hes mafia. If the person we follow kills 3 mafia in a row, theres a solid chance hes town. I don't know how you can't agree with that.

On January 07 2012 06:00 Probulous wrote:
Alright, my Sheth read.

Points in his favour
He is active and was the first to call out both Cats and Cephiro. He is happy to respond and get engaged in large discussions. He voted early for AKCT who was already on his list of scum reads.

On January 08 2012 11:58 CatsnHats wrote:


@Everyone The phrase I bolded is really interesting to me. It seems like the town (including myself) has followed Probulous without much question. He has posted so much many long posts so often that we have written him off as town without thought and reanalysis. Do you think that Probulous is getting by without enough criticism? He's not a D2 lynch target by any means, but do you think that is true? This is NOT FOS, I'm just asking a question.