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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
Too easy. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
First thing's first, I'm not going to spend much time trying to guess specific role/game mechanics. Why? Because the set-up is closed, and there's no way to figure it out with no flips (Besides people claiming). Everything else is complete conjecture. The game seems like it's been designed to punish bad play though, so I'm just going to try to not play badly. Also, I think Mafia mechanics if they exist will be built around punishing bad play as well. So stuff like lurker-vigs, claim-vigs, maybe stuff like that, but I'm going to stop now. If people want my general thoughts on possible game mechanics, then I'll post them. Secondly, my thoughts on Chezinu. I'm not going to policy lynch him unless someone can prove he's done something worth lynching him for. There's two possibilities as far as lynching him goes, because I don't see him actually giving up information when pressured. 1) We policy lynch him, and waste all of day 1. 2) We don't lynch him, and as the game goes on, he'll either get shot, or give up more information about himself. (Whether he means to or not). Basically, I don't feel like lynching anyone only because they're useless. I want to lynch someone because they're scummy. Maybe they're scummy and useless, but that's just incidental. Chezinu has the ability to contribute to the town, and so he doesn't make a good policy lynch. What we have to look for is if he's still around later in the game, and then at how he's playing. I don't see him exerting too much influence on the town, so as long as people are aware of him, and deal with him later if he remains unreadable or noncontributory, then I think we're good. Next, BC said he's going to post: On December 20 2011 16:47 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Hasn't done so yet, though. I'll give him time, but I think we should pay close attention to players who are lurking. I've had games with BC, Foolishness, and FW where they just lurked as mafia all the way until day 3 or later with minimal contribution to the thread. If a player refuses to help, or contribute, then we should shoot/lynch them before they can make it too far along in the game. This goes for everyone./confirming my role however I will not be posting until I sober the F up. Just got home from a staff party and can barely organize coherent thought. Don't even know how long this took to write without errors. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 20 2011 23:53 SamuelLJackson wrote: Also, I found this curious, in one of the posts that the hydra made, specifically the bolded part, and I'm wondering what other people think about it.GMarshal that's such stupid reasoning. If anything having two people post on the account just gives you twice as many chances to slipup and twice the scum tendencies. It's much more beneficial for Town since we can bounce ideas off each other and feed each other - as Mafia you already have that channel of communication with the rest of your teammates. /Curu GM just said that he wants to kill the hydra because he finds it hard to read. So, in defense, the hydra says what I quoted. What I find interesting, is that he defends the use of the hydra by saying it's more beneficial for town than mafia. However, the choice to play as a hydra comes before the game even starts. So, he's trying to defend his being a hydra as being pro-town, when it was a decision that was made before alignments. As well, why not attack GM's reasoning itself? He does this in part, but it's more that he says the contrary, when either case has a chance of being correct, and is terrible reasoning for keeping someone alive/lynching them anyways. It's like if I said you're scum because your name is Tim, and instead of telling me how silly my argument is, you argue that your name being Tim makes you more likely to be town. It doesn't make a lot of sense. What do people think about the fact that he's defending himself on the basis of a hydra being pro-town when the choice is made before he knows if he's town, and not arguing against GM's reasoning itself, but rather trying to spin himself as being easy to catch as scum? This stuck out for me, and I'm curious as to what others think. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
First the bolded, then the not bolded. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 21 2011 05:22 syllogism wrote: I said that neither case is good as an argument for lynching someone, or for keeping someone alive.Curu's reasoning appears solid; GM asserted that hydra's are inherently hard to read and therefore according to him anti-town, while Curu pointed out they actually benefit town because two players are more effective than one. How can you say that the former is a good reason to lynch someone while the latter isn't a good reason to keep someone alive? In the end all that matters is whether they are being useful and making sense, which is what your previous post was talking about GM's post wasn't a good reason to lynch someone. Curu's post wasn't a good reason to keep someone alive. I said neither were good reasons for anything. On December 21 2011 05:20 SamuelLJackson wrote: Ok, that makes a bit more sense. I still have to ask, though, why do you even bother arguing that hydra's are better for town? GM doesn't say that "hydras are inherently worse for Town", he says that they're hard to read, with no reasoning. So, to counter-act that, you give your own argument with no reasoning that they are easy to read.Is there anything wrong with my reasoning Wiggles? The fact is that a Town hydra is stronger than a scum hydra. I'm not saying it makes me more likely to be Town, I'm saying GMarshal's initial reasoning that hydras are inherently worse for Town is flawed. The fact that he tried to justify what he originally said was "irrational hatred" before the game with real reasoning once the game had started doesn't sit right with me. Back to VE's post you ridiculed me for asking Chezinu if he "wants to lynch scum," saying I am trying to appear to contribute. Then you turn around and ask Chezinu if he IS scum with even more useless questions. What's your purpose there? However, both arguments have the potential to be true, but neither of you provided enough explanation or evidence to support your claim. So, why bother even trying to say the opposite? Why not just say that GM's reason for voting you is bad (which it is), and explain why? Instead you try to spin it off that you'll be easy to read this game, which doesn't sit well with me. What's the motivation for doing so? That's what I'm wondering. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
Also, Foolishness, do you have any other thoughts you'd like to share? From my experience playing with you, you avoid posting a lot as scum, and also try to avoid having to contribute. This makes you look like an apathetic or busy townie, but in my games with you, you turned out to be scum. So, I'd rather you remain more active than that, so I can get a better read on you. Gonna re-read LSB's posts and WBG's case on him. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
I can guess the reason for the first one, any particular reasons for the latter two statements? About LSB: Right now, I'm getting a null-vibe off him. He hasn't contributed too much to the game so far, besides talking about mechanics/general things. His posts on these seem decently reasoned, and I can follow the logic behind them. He's also questioning people a lot, which I see as pretty normal for such an early stage in the game. He hasn't made any definite posts in regards to his thoughts on other players, though. So, he's null to me, until he starts talking about other players and pushing his opinion in the thread. Edit Before Posting: LSB posted some of his reads, so that makes me feel a little better about him. So, I don't particularly agree with WBG's analysis of LSB. On December 21 2011 07:30 SamuelLJackson wrote: Aren't these phrases contradictory? How can he be avoiding pissing people off when he's "making bullshit conclusions" out of their posts? That doesn't make much sense.Just to clarify, the part about wbg's case I find relevant is the bottom part and I'd like people to comment on it and LSB to respond to it. LSB's posts so far seem very meek to me, always answering something or clarifying something. It really feels like he is actively avoiding pissing off people and he is making bullshit conclusions out of other players' posts. Doesn't feel like the confident townie LSB, it looks exactly the opposite. The points about his response regarding chezinu and the sk thing don't really tell me much though. I'd also like to hear from Sheth, He hasn't really done anything but come in, quote me, and say: "I agree". What are your thoughts? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 21 2011 12:43 Chezinu wrote: Yay! Someone actually asked me in the thread to translate one of my posts! No one has ever done that. Here is a different translationn: As most veterans are fully aware, role claiming will eventually come up. In previous games, I have jokingly and rather skillfully claimed to be a bank. However, I will not conduct such actions this game. This game is different than most games as I softly hinted earlier in hidden links. The mafia has a list of blue roles. If the blues claim, the mafia can verify such roles. If a townie fake claims a blue role, the mafia will know he is lying. With confusion being my specialty tactic, I have developed a strategy where a blue role can fake claim another blue role so that the mafia will believe the blue role is just a lying bored townie or a black role. So, I can pretend to be a blue role that fakeclaims another blue role to come off as a townie or a black role. For an example of a type of role to claim, just think of Ver's motives. He strives not to punish bad play but improper play. Since he wants us to type civilly, he could well have a nazi role that kills people for bad grammar. If he does have this role, he would have another role that will kill the grammar nazi. So if someone would fake claim this role, they would have to be aware of the grammar nazi hunter. Ver can't stand reading fragments where you have to fill information. He wants us to type as well-educated teamliquidians. In this matter, I support the bum rebellion against conforming to Ver's chains. Even if it cost me my life in this game, I will have my joy knowing I played as Chezinu and not Ver's puppet. But let us not get too caught up with the mechanics of the game for we still have to deal with lynches. That plan won't work, though: Mafia will be given a list or some or all of the blue roles in the game but not told how many of each exist in the game. There's the possibility that scum only have a partial list of blues, meaning that they can't punish role-claimers, or claim that someone is fake-claiming. Unless Ver told them if the list is partial or complete, which I doubt. I think the list is meant more to give scum "safe" claims, and also to give them an idea of what town roles in the game look like. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
Can any of the older vets tell me how BC plays in their experience? In my experience, when he's town, he is motivated, and posts actively. For example, here's his filter from PTP2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245008&user=10200 XLVII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=10200 In both games, he's active, and contributing. In both games, you get the feeling he actually cares about what's happening, and wants to have an influence on the game. Now contrast that to: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295384&user=10200 One post, that's completely vacuous. Almost everything he says has either already been said, or is useless. This runs completely against my experience with townie BC, and is very similar to my experience with scum BC. In any case, I want him to post more. ##Vote: BloodyC0bbler What do people think? @prplhz: I'd rate it as pretty bad. Kind've reminds me of what I did in Mini Mafia X. In any case, I want to see what GM has to say now, to see whether it's BS, or something that's actually contributory. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
Assume 3 scum. Case 1: GM green LSB green Lynch LSB: GM shoots tonight, either kills scum, or hits town and dies. 16-2 or 14-3 Net Loss: 1 scum/1 town, or 3 town. Don't lynch LSB: GM and LSB shoot tonight 17-1, 13-3, 14-2 Net Loss: 2 scum, or 4 town, or 2 town, 1 scum Case 2: GM Red LSB Green Lynch LSB: GM doesn't shoot because he's scum 16-3, Net Loss: 1 Town (We have a scum to lynch) Don't Lynch LSB: GM still doesn't shoot, LSB does. 17-2, 15-3, Net Loss: 1 Scum, or 2 Town (We have a scum to lynch) Case 3: LSB Red GM Green Lynch LSB: GM shoots tonight 17-1, 15-2, Net Loss: 2 Scum, or 2 Town, 1 Scum Don't Lynch LSB: GM shoots tonight, LSB doesn't 17-2, 15-3, Net Loss: 1 Scum, or 2 Town (We have a scum to lynch) Case 4: GM red LSB red lolwut? So, if we lynch LSB, the only way we don't end up hitting scum is if they're both town, and GM misses his shot. If we don't lynch LSB, we get a scum unless they're both town and both miss their shot. I'm kind've tired, so I'm not sure if this makes sense completely, or if I made some stupid mistake. Otherwise, it the outcome looks similarin either case (Lynching LSB or not). However, not lynching LSB means that it's going to take longer to get the same information (about LSB and GM). If we lynch him, then we see his flip, and either kill a scum, or lose a town KP. What are the chances someone claims RB in the morning, though? That means we're either going to have to lynch them out of principle, or deal with bullshit for the next couple days. What do people plan to do, when someone claims RB, or claims their shot but the target doesn't die (vet or protected)? I see this as pretty likely to happen, regardless of if one is scum or not. @GM or LSB: If you shoot a protected town target (medic or vet), do you still commit suicide? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
He actually placed that picture in his post, after he was pressured as well. I think it's so that if the wagon on him actually picked up speed, he could claim. When LSB claimed his role, GM counter-claimed, in order to cause a mislynch. If LSB flips town, Scum GM still knows that Justice Vig is a role, and can claim that Ver put in similar roles with different names to punish claimers. He can then claim RB or that his target was protted in the morning when he fails to deliver a shot, or if scum is really ballsy, they can shoot one of their own or something. The only thing that doesn't make sense about this, is that this would be close to trading 1 for 1 with town, because in the folow-up, GM is likely to die if he's scum. However, it seems likely GM would be put under lots of pressure, and potentially be killed if he was unable to deliver day 2. Especially after pleading for more time, and then it makes more sense to try to kill a vig by lynch on Day 1, if we was on course to a vig shot himself, anyways. This is assuming GM is scum, though. I actually think there's a 50-50 chance between them about who's telling the truth (assuming they're not scum). GM's picture breadcrumb means nothing to me, because he hasn't done anything to prove his role. It's like what Ace always talks about, with breadcrumbs being useless before you flip. WBG did something similar in Mini Mafia X, going jk jk jk, and then claiming Jailkeeper. Town just ate that one up, too. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
##Vote: GMarshal For now. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 22 2011 13:38 wherebugsgo wrote: wow, this is ironic coming from you. What have you done all game? RNG VE? You have no room to talk when it comes to activity. Why are you assuming there are 3 scum, wiggles, when the total mafia number is listed at 4? Oh wow, I'm dumb and can't read the OP, lol. I saw L guess the KP earlier, and thought it was the mafia numbers. It doesn't make a difference for the net outcomes, though, just the town/mafia numbers in the morning. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 22 2011 13:39 kitaman27 wrote: Wiggles, you don't mention which scenario you prefer... Also, why did you assume 3 mafia? OP clearly states the mafia count is four + a traitor. I knew I could count on your support. Now witness the wrath of my town influence as I gather 10 other votes in the next 20 minutes. ##Unvote ##Vote Foolishness It doesn't make much difference. Lynching one of them gives us more information, sooner, though. As well, leaving them both alive has more variance, which can be good or bad (Between 2 scum dead, no town losses, or 4 town dead, no scum losses). If LSB is a vig and shoots me tonight (I'm his red read), we're going to be losing two town tonight, though. Lynch ends in 18 minutes? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
##Vote: LSB To avoid random vote-switches to no-lynch. @Above: I don't think there's enough time, or enough players around. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
On December 22 2011 13:55 SamuelLJackson wrote: It has nothing to do with the roles. Do you understand what GM is claiming? It is not like DT or Medic, it is impossible for scum to fulfil the role he is claiming. Sure he can fake RB every night but unless there's more than one RBer that means scum can only really RB their kills (and if one is Medic saved they're screwed doing that) and when the RBer dies GM is screwed. The problem is if he has a scum role. For example, if he's the RB, he can claim RB each night, and people will (hopefully not) let him live. However, just by living, he's doing scum a service. Same thing if he has any other role, whether it's a framer, scum-vig, or whatever. Letting a scum fake-vig live lets them use their ability at least one night, and if he claims RB, then he gets to live multiple nights and continue to use his power. It's beneficial to just continue to live for them. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
That's why I want to hear what people will do if GM claims RB or that his target was protected in the morning. I'd rather not let him live for multiple days, possibly on minimal contributions, just by claiming RB (Which is likely to happen) So, we're going to have to judge him based on his contributions. If he doesn't pick up his game, and start to give us concrete analysis, then I'm not going to sit back and let him live night after night claiming RB. @GM, I want you to contribute more. Give me scum, or I'll hang you. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5332 Posts
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