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I unvoted you because I knew you were going to post a shit storm and I needed to really do some digging and reading on your actions this game.
I also at that time had not noticed that you claimed bp vs vet. I was just solely voting you at that time based on the Option 1 = ability 3 bullshit. When you posted a stupid but understandable (as in, I could follow what you said) explanation I knew that you were going to post garbage like that in reply to every point that would be brought up.
Also, you say
On December 14 2011 17:11 annul wrote:
why not immediately pounce on it, the way i immediately pounced on you when i learned you had vet and not BP?
I did?
On December 14 2011 13:24 vaderseven wrote:
Hum mine is vet for one night.
On December 14 2011 13:45 annul wrote:
hmm.
that is quite interesting.
On December 14 2011 13:46 vaderseven wrote:
yes it is.
On December 14 2011 13:46 vaderseven wrote:
##vote annul
Also what lie?
Thats the abilities I have in the correct order.
I said that on December 14 2011 07:35 and I noticed upon alot of reading your BP over vet thing at December 14 2011 13:24. At that time I realized you had in fact posted a list that did not match my list. This was the nail in the coffin for you in my mind.
If I make a mistake and read your list of abilites that is damn near close to mine and see Bulletproof where I expect to see Vet I am sure you can see why I would ignore that. Especially since the issue I was focus'd on at the time was ability 1 being a non targetable ability.
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I actually didn't notice the other ordering issues with your claim until you just pointed that out until I wrote this out. lol. Thanks for pointing that out.
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On December 14 2011 17:18 annul wrote:
the case against vader BEGAN as that, but in the last couple hours it has morphed so far beyond that it is absurd.
the style of defense he employs is tragic. full of flaws, fallacies, and diversions. he goes off the deep end when i put any form of pressure on him that theres no way in hell hes not red.
Where did that happen?
I am just here pointing out that you lied and then went nuts and claimed I am scum and then every time I point out the truth and facts of the events you scream louder and louder that I am nuts.
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On December 14 2011 17:16 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 17:07 annul wrote:
pinpoint what specifically you want me to comment on Comment on your choice to shoot and claim jack after what had happened with me on day 1. Comment on your choice to say option 1 and then call everyone retarded that says 1 does not equal 3. Please take the time to specifically comment on as to why you choose to say this, if it was indeed not a lie, in the most insanely stupid way so that anyone that was checking their role vs your claimed actions would instantly feel as if you had lied. Comment on to why me saying Vet and then you saying Bulletproof 2 hours and 41 minutes later is not important yet you posting a list that states bulletproof and then me posting a list that says vet 5 hours later is important. Keep in mine that the first of these two events happened first. Comment on how you are turning this into a lynch Vader not me is in fact not a defensive measure when you are leading the vote count in a huge way.
1. uh i was gonna die to the lynch so i claimed? this is standard procedure... or are you legitimately arguing that because i came up with a clever way to save myself that i must be mafia? you cant be arguing this, can you?
2. i already commented on this muuuuultiple times. i already "specifically commented" on why i chose to say that. but if you forgot, "vader knows our powers. vader knows ive proven im jack repeatedly such that he believes me. vader knows i know what we can do. vader cant possibly be so dumb as to think 'option 1' refers to something i cant target someone else with; he has to know that im referring specifically to the fact that i could have medic'd OR mason'd. i do not want to say "i used medic" because then the mafia will know we have medic powers, and i dont know if vader already used his second power."
3. you said the WORD vet whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop dee doo for you sir, you also said "cop" a few times too; were you claiming cop? were you "naming your powers" then too? you didnt actually claim; i did, then you echoed my claim much later. also note that regardless of what you want to straw man with SAYING THE WORD vet earlier... i am still the first one to say medic! and mason! but like "WHO SAID IT FIRST" is not really important other than to disprove YOUR framework of the case where you tried to argue that i was not actually a jack.
HEY TOWN, READ THIS!
thats where the importance of this entire argument line comes from: v7 legitimately put in his case against me that he HONESTLY THOUGHT i was not a jack.
4. ive led the votes every day other than day 1. i was writing my case to attack you even before i saw your "##vote annul" without other content post. there is no more delaying. i cannot try to sway a no lynch to save myself, like i could otherwise do. today i need to focus fire a red OR WE LOSE. this is it. no lynch = game over. do the math. and as any good player of this game will do, in a situation like this, i am going to try to find someone i think is red and push my ass off on them and hope im right.
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Ok for real good night, I am up way too late (230am got to work at 8am wtf). I still can't believe I defended you and led the town into not lynching you.
If you post anymore manipulative statements and half truths about your claims tonight I'll address them tomorrow.
gg sir for fooling me this long and gg at this die hard defense.
I am a fan of that but it IS easy to see through.
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On December 14 2011 17:25 vaderseven wrote:
I unvoted you because I knew you were going to post a shit storm
this is obviously bullshit. this is the rationale? lololol
Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 17:11 annul wrote:
why not immediately pounce on it, the way i immediately pounced on you when i learned you had vet and not BP?
I did?
no you didnt. you unvoted. im talking about if my explanation was so scummy, not the initial claim.
i dont know what you are asking here but this is good that you pull out that when you saw that, you instantly voted for me without content, whereas when i saw that, i instantly decided to write a legit case.
If I make a mistake and read your list of abilites that is damn near close to mine and see Bulletproof where I expect to see Vet I am sure you can see why I would ignore that. Especially since the issue I was focus'd on at the time was ability 1 being a non targetable ability.
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I actually didn't notice the other ordering issues with your claim until you just pointed that out until I wrote this out. lol. Thanks for pointing that out.
AKA "YOU CAUGHT ME, DAMN IT, I HOPE NO ONE NOTICES THAT ANNUL IS RIGHT HERE IF I AM CORDIAL ABOUT IT"
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On December 14 2011 17:29 vaderseven wrote:
I still can't believe I defended you and led the town into not lynching you.
id be upset with myself too if i knew i was a red and the guy ive been sheltering all along saw through the illusion
If you post anymore manipulative statements and half truths about your claims tonight I'll address them tomorrow.
the word "anymore" is poorly used here; it implies ive posted any manipulative statements or half truths in the first place, which i havent. but i would love to see you address my important substantive issues, since you havent really done so yet
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also, something to note here: v7 keeps harping on the "option 1" thing and tried to characterize my clarifications as "scrambling to save a scumslip" or some such shit. how can i possibly be scumslipping if it is proven -- and v7 even acknowledges -- that i did what i claimed to do? remember: the SUBSTANTIVE claim was that i used medic at refallen. he cannot dispute this. he knows i have medic. he even admits that HIS ordering of abilities is incorrect. there is no issue with me here: it's not like i am not a jack. it's not like i dont have this ability to use. by continuing to harp on it, he is implying something untrue: that i had to lie about what i did. when you are intentionally trying to convey information to one person without it reaching anyone else, sometimes the cryptic texts are misinterpreted.
there is no basis in fact or logic that can explain my gameplay and my divining of the jack powers unless i actually had what i said i had. THEREFORE, since we agree on 3/4 of the powers, the sole difference is the self-defense power. nothing else.
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On December 14 2011 17:27 annul wrote:
3. you said the WORD vet whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop dee doo for you sir, you also said "cop" a few times too; were you claiming cop? were you "naming your powers" then too? you didnt actually claim; i did, then you echoed my claim much later. also note that regardless of what you want to straw man with SAYING THE WORD vet earlier... i am still the first one to say medic! and mason! but like "WHO SAID IT FIRST" is not really important other than to disprove YOUR framework of the case where you tried to argue that i was not actually a jack.
*SIGH* quick fact check-
I mentioned cop once as a ability shortly after you claimed. I then asked if you had any issue with things I said and you mentioned that something about our night abilities was wrong. (BTW, why didn't you call me out on that? If you are a town Jack and a claimed Jack claims a power you don't have you just let it slide?)
I did this once as a test. Notice how the post where I did that I wasn't making a case on someone and voting them.
When I mention vet it is specifically because I am calling you out on a lie and naming the lie.
On December 14 2011 17:27 annul wrote:HEY TOWN, READ THIS!
thats where the importance of this entire argument line comes from: v7 legitimately put in his case against me that he HONESTLY THOUGHT i was not a jack.
I know you aren't the role that I am. I am a Town Jack.
the word "anymore" is poorly used here; it implies ive posted any manipulative statements or half truths in the first place, which i havent. but i would love to see you address my important substantive issues, since you havent really done so yet
Ok...
the word "anymore" is poorly used here; it implies ive posted any manipulative statements or half truths in the first place, which i havent. but i would love to see you address my important substantive issues, since you havent really done so yet
Vague statement that has no factual evidence.
what a horrible defense you have put up. all game i stand firm to the pressure and survive two full days of onslaught of people saying there cant be two town jacks. the REAL mafia jack gets a couple of posts of pressure by me and completely disintegrates.
An effort to flip pressure on you onto me that ignores a large amount of the cases that were made on you. Manipulative.
im voting you because your slate of abilities is tailored for mafia whereas mine is tailored for town. that is my rationale
Scummy and manipulative. Scum have to find rationale for voting. It is their entire way of playing. Town finds evidence. The tone of this post is one that states Vader has scum abilites (you are saying VET = SCUM). You discussion of BP vs VET is worthless because of this fact. The evidence is weak or not there. The evidence that you 'have brought up' is that BP is more towny than Vet. This is based on a given that I am either lieing or telling the truth and that you are telling the truth. It fails as a logical fallacy as such. Thats why you say rationale.
you named vet 5 hours AFTER i named bulletproof. not the other way around.
Incorrect and not based on a factual account of things.
holy shit you need to solidify your theory of the case
it looks like your last post is going back to the whole "im not really a jack" theory. LOLOLOL.
You are not the same role as I and I am a town jack.
saying "so you choose to be a vet and target someone" is not claiming vet.
I made it crystal clear that I was saying that my first ability is to become a Vet.
the fact you saw it cool to type "##vote annul" without any other content before i managed to type a multiple paragraph case does not make you the aggressor. i think itll be pretty clear to those who read this debate who is the one failing at proper defense.
Telling others how think and saying that my vote was too look cool. Manipulative.
pinpoint what specifically you want me to comment on; perhaps i have mistakenly missed something. but given how bad your case has been so far, it certainly was not intentional and i will pounce on any chance i get to disprove something of yours
You are the only one to say my case is bad. The other person voting me, VEyes, is voting me for 'squirming and sheeping." My case on you is rock solid and based on facts. This is, again, a manipulative statement designed to influence the reader that reads through this large amount of posts tomorrow.
the style of defense he employs is tragic. full of flaws, fallacies, and diversions. he goes off the deep end when i put any form of pressure on him that theres no way in hell hes not red.
We get it, you think I am 'crazy' and thereful should be ignored. Well, I say that you are trying to jam that opinion into everyone's mind for consideration as a defensive way to make people dismiss the points I have before they even take them in. That is known as manipulating someone.
you said the WORD vet whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop dee doo for you sir, you also said "cop" a few times too; were you claiming cop? were you "naming your powers" then too?
I made it clear at that time what I was doing. I was testing your claim to see if you would go along with whatever ability I named. This is clearly contrasted by me asking if you used an ability last night, me asking which one, and you say option 1 at Refallen. Manipulation.
this is obviously bullshit. this is the rationale? lololol
Why is that bullshit? You never actually state evidence and just instead tell people how to think about things. Manipulative.
AKA "YOU CAUGHT ME, DAMN IT, I HOPE NO ONE NOTICES THAT ANNUL IS RIGHT HERE IF I AM CORDIAL ABOUT IT"
It is a very valid scum tech to point out the half truths that are missed by town players. The fact that your claim matches up even less to my claim might have escaped me at first because my focus was on just the first ability but the fact that your claim matches up even less changes absolutely nothing. It just means the reasons for me voting you were actually stronger than I originally realized.
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On December 14 2011 17:39 annul wrote:
also, something to note here: v7 keeps harping on the "option 1" thing and tried to characterize my clarifications as "scrambling to save a scumslip" or some such shit. how can i possibly be scumslipping if it is proven -- and v7 even acknowledges -- that i did what i claimed to do? remember: the SUBSTANTIVE claim was that i used medic at refallen. he cannot dispute this. he knows i have medic. he even admits that HIS ordering of abilities is incorrect. there is no issue with me here: it's not like i am not a jack. it's not like i dont have this ability to use. by continuing to harp on it, he is implying something untrue: that i had to lie about what i did. when you are intentionally trying to convey information to one person without it reaching anyone else, sometimes the cryptic texts are misinterpreted.
there is no basis in fact or logic that can explain my gameplay and my divining of the jack powers unless i actually had what i said i had. THEREFORE, since we agree on 3/4 of the powers, the sole difference is the self-defense power. nothing else.
UHHHH. My abilities are listed in the correct order. I just didn't notice the incorrectness of your list.
Substantive claim?
WTF? How is is substantive? I know you said you protected someone that wasn't targeted for a night kill. I aksed for this to be clarified and that was what I was told (that unless the doc'd player is target to be killed he won't know about being protected).
I don't trust your ability list at all! I know you had a day vig power. Beyond that I have no idea. I know you aren't my role yet are claiming to be my role. Thats all I know.
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i mean honestly i can PBPA against you all fucking day. i went 50 pages with someone on day 1 of a game once. but in THIS case, it will do nothing but make shit more murky and then people will do the "feel good" vote and sheep vote annul, again. so i will just provide two nice nuggets for people to see and read. consider this a "closing argument" of sorts -- even though i am sure there will be more to come tomorrow.
ANNUL'S "CLOSING ARGUMENT" FOR THE PROSECUTION
FIRST, vaderseven legitimately argued in one of his first posts against me here that he doesn't think i'm a jack and that he thinks i am a mafia one shot day vig. when i provided multiple pieces of evidence showing how this is obviously untrue and how it would be statistically impossible for me to pull out of my ass the list of powers that we both have (with the exception of the BP v. vet dichotomy), he backpedals and tries to skirt the issue. but this is the MAIN CRUX of his entire case against me. the fact that he tried this at all indicates desperation and the execution of it can only be described in the way i did before: throwing the entire pot of pasta at the wall and hoping at least one strand sticks. this is what reds do.
SECOND, the entire framework of focusing on the "option 1" thing is rooted in the theory that i had to have been lying about my abilities, and because of not actually having the abilities, i "slipped" by saying i used a power i couldnt' have used, thus meaning i "lied" about my role. this only works out in the end if i actually did turn out to be lying about my role. however, i provided evidence where i claimed mason before he ever did (something he admits exists for jacks), i claimed medic before he ever did (something he also admits exists for jacks), i had day vig like he did (imagine that), and we both have two roles that are very clearly self-defense, but one tailored for town (BP) and one tailored for mafia (vet). in other words, because there is no doubt that i am a jack and that i do have medic powers, the actual offensive point behind this argument is moot. the fact that he continues to use this also shows desperation and subterfuge. this is what reds do.
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Yeah, I'm keeping my vote here.
Risen, you can bite it. This is valid. This is relevant. And this is going to be the lynch today. Either Annul or vaderseven. Annul's case is solid - vader DID lose it when annul switched over to vaderseven, and given the nature of the roles and how similar they are, the fact that one is BP and one is Vet is important. Vader's case is based on semantics and minutia.
Fuck, if Palmar were here for this, even he would side with Annul on this. I urge everyone in town to reconsider, the turning-point in the game just occurred. Be a part of history and take the first step toward the greatest town comeback ever! Vote vaderseven!
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
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what the fuck is going on. Yesterday I was about to vote annul because V7 said he's scum, than he changed to "do not vote annul because he's not scum" and now he's back to annul is scum?
Is there going to be more changes comming or do we now have a final statement?
And yes I haven't voted yet because of what I said above. V7 first said he's scum, than he said he's not and I went to bed 2am. Now I woke up an see a shitload of text I have to read.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Just lynch Annul. The recent argument with V7 changes nothing... Except Annul realizing he can't lynch me and that VE is buddy buddy with annul
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On December 14 2011 19:44 Toadesstern wrote:
what the fuck is going on. Yesterday I was about to vote annul because V7 said he's scum, than he changed to "do not vote annul because he's not scum" and now he's back to annul is scum?
Is there going to be more changes comming or do we now have a final statement?
And yes I haven't voted yet because of what I said above. V7 first said he's scum, than he said he's not and I went to bed 2am. Now I woke up an see a shitload of text I have to read.
I just read it.. it is, as you said, a bunch of shit. Basically it comes down to there being 2 JOATs. 1 is mafia and 1 is town.
keeping my vote on annul
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Annul, "option 1" is so damning for you. You were trying to communicate with v7, the only person allegedly with the same role as you and you say option 1 on refallen. That makes no sense. There is no excuse for not communicating clearly with v7.
I understand why you would say "option [x]", so that the mafia wouldn't know what ability you were talking about, but listing the wrong number? Get real. Nobody would actually do that. The cover, "I thought you would be smart enough to realize I meant the first option I could use on someone," is not plausible at all.
What proves to me that v7 is the townie and you are the liar is the fact that you acknowledged his order of the abilities as being correct and you tried to explain away how the 3rd ability was actually option 1. It just doesn't make any sense that someone who could very easily and concisely say option 3, would instead say option 1. Only adding confusion with no gain.
Sorry hyshes case, you may still come in handy later, but annul's option 1 is just too much for me to tolerate.
##unvote hyshes
##vote annul
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ok read it and V7 said annul lied => he's a mafia davig OR a mafia joat?. So we're lynching annul because he lied? Fine with me as long as drazerks the next one :p
##vote annul
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Jackal you still need to vote annul.
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On December 15 2011 01:49 Drazerk wrote:
Jackal you still need to vote annul.
I need to read the last 2 days worth of stuff. It's lunchtime at work and my first chance to be here. Catching up be back later.
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On December 14 2011 20:05 TruthBringer wrote:
It just doesn't make any sense that someone who could very easily and concisely say option 3, would instead say option 1.
so it is your belief that i am NOT a jack?
because the only way this is relevant whatsoever is if you think i am somehow lying about the abilities i have. but because i AM a jack, who knows very well what powers he has, do you honestly believe that i would seriously claim that i used a self-defense power on somebody else?
furthermore, apparently v7's order IS different than mine lol
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EPT
