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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On November 30 2011 06:51 Lemonwalrus wrote: a joke? Not a good one...but there you have it. That's actually the correct answer. You did flip your read on me, that's correct. You weren't vocal enough with it though, but it's not enough to incriminate you. Depending on how the night ends, I would suggest only killing Bumatlarge tomorrow. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
Here's an assignment. Write me an essay on why you're not scum, and please, go back and quote your own posts and explain the reasoning behind them. I think you are the most likely to flip scum out of the remaining people, so if I were you I'd do something about it. | ||
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Palmar
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You are allowed to be dumb for one night, not the entire game. I need to read more. | ||
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Palmar
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Based on who survives, kill bumalarge, and then do the work on the final guy. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
I tried to approach it like a small game, where I assume everyone is going to be involved and actually play the game properly, instead of approaching it for what it is, a huge game filled with trolls and players who have no interest in playing the game. There were a grand total of maybe 5 people actually trying to win the game as town. Tyrran, Me, Bugs, risk.nuke and LSB. Perhaps we can give HarbringerOfDoom and prplhz the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, chaoser decided to troll the game hardcore, without thinking about the consequences of it. Obviously I got tunneled in on him pretty bad. I would probably have dropped the case completely if MrZentor hadn't fucked around with the claim in the end. The multi-lynch and no vigi system was terrible. We had no reliable way of clearing out lurkers. Every TL town over the size of 16-ish should have a non-limit vigilante to shoot lurkers and useless people. It's very hard to play when like 5-6 townies earn themselves an auto-lynch if town is playing correctly, I'll list some of them up. DCXLVI: Claiming miller. If you're gonna claim it, you claim it in your first post. If not, you shut up until someone waltzes in with a guilty claim. You need to be EXTREMELY pro-town if you're a miller. Why didn't you play like Tyrran and Bugs and risk.nuke and HoD? Miller claims should ALWAYS be autolynched if they're not 1st post on day 1. Lanaia: Just fucking say something when you're gonna anti-vote kenpachi. Or better yet, don't use the anti-vote and just give us reasons why we're doing the wrong thing. If you used your head for half a second you would've seen where your vote would lead. LemonWalrus: You basically have what constitutes an innocent check on me night 1. That's when you start supporting me and my group of people. Not from the shadows, but loud and up front. We needed more people to fight the stupidity and you could be sure I wasn't scum. Why the hell not actually contribute and help? Nisani201: Should be autolynched for being the dumbest person to ever play mafia games. Nothing he ever says or does increases the town's chance of winning. Lynching him day 1 is actually optimal play for town in any situation. xsksc: All you had to do to clear yourself perfectly and contribute to the game was to support me right on day 2. We had more than enough confirmed townies. When you know a faction is town drive, you align yourself with it. I want to re-iterate: By day 2, We could have had a faction of like 10 confirmed/semi-confirmed townies in WBG/Me/Tyrran/HoD (through analysis/obvious town) prplhz (by extension, I knew he was innocent) hyshes/drazer (by mason claim) xsksc (by doc save on me n1) LemonWalrus (by rolecheck on me being alignment cop n1) Lanaia (because we decided that her being mafia would be retarded) If everyone in this list would have contributed to the game, aligned themselves with the faction obviously being driven by town we would have steamrolled this game. But instead, we had to deal with people not applying themselves to the game, giving vague statements and jumping terrible bandwagons. I'm not gonna try to push all the blame on everyone else. I apparently still manage to always be controversial even when I'm playing obviously pro-town, get 2 innocent checks (save/rolecheck) on me night 1 etc. This means there is something wrong with my town play. If I didn't suck at mafia everyone in the game would always know I'm town on day 1. I clearly need to be doing something differently for people to actually sit down and listen to me. Last but not least, disappointing performance from Bumatlarge, he's actively not putting in any effort. that shit sucks. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On November 30 2011 18:57 syllogism wrote: I'm so sick of "veterans" who don't post enough to even establish their own innocence OR support the right people This is the core of the issue. Way too many mafia players are afraid of being wrong. There is nothing wrong with being wrong, if you give ample reasoning as for why you're wrong, and are willing to listen to logic as to why your logic was bad. Everyone makes bad calls. But you need to pick sides. And you need to be willing to reconsider which side you're on. You will see circles form in games of people who trust each other. If you see this, you should do research into why they trust each other, or simply ask them. They will provide reasoning. You need to support someone. The worst town play is to stay in your own corner and not trust anyone. Remember that statistically you can randomly buddy up with someone and he has 70-80% chance of being town. Using a bit of analysis increases that value. What this means is that no town can afford players who don't commit themselves. Sadly we have to balance mafia games around people who don't intend to actually play. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On November 30 2011 19:34 Tyrran wrote: GG Scum. First of all, thanks a lot Zona for hosting the game. The setup was really great, and i overall had a lot of fun playing ( even if we lost). Cool abilities, cool background story ( Steamship = Spaceship obviously =p ), i'll be looking forward for the next games you host. Overall we had a few good players but we had a really hard time sticking together as town. Lots of people were just votin randomly, and didnt really think enough. I somehow hoped that we could create a group town around me/palmar/WBG, but we were unable to have town follow us. From my part, i think i did OK for a first forum based game, even if the only scum i found was Sabin010, and he got modkilled anyway. Hopefully i'll get better on the next games. You played very well and I hope to play again with you in the future. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On November 30 2011 19:07 xsksc wrote: Yeah, I was awful, but I wasn't trolling or not taking it seriously, just bad. I was pretty nervous about posting much, we'd already lost blues and I was scared of accidently saying something stupid or revealing I guess, lol. My plan was keep you alive and try not to die... I definitely should have posted loads more. Being nervous and being afraid of being wrong are tools mafia exploits. When I'm playing scum I will undermine trust in town as hard as I can. I will bus partners at the right moments to discredit townies. I will viciously attack arguments to make people doubt themselves, and I will try to break up any attempt at forming a town group. You can only imagine how glad mafia is when town does this all for them, so they can just sit back and enjoy the ride. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:25 Zephirdd wrote: Now I officially have 100% winrate on TL woohoo! This was fun. It was fun. The fact that I was newbie played to my side very hard. AND Palmar going claim ALL the roles thing basically gave us the game because of Grey's powers lololololo I claimed that medic roleblocker thing(apparently it's called a 'jailer' not a 'restraining doc', but it works too heh) to do exactly what I did to Lanaia: so she confirms that I'm town when I roleblocked her. Yeah, we just had to sit back and watch most of the time. The first few posts where I attacked chaoser were actually directed by Cyber_Cheese, not myself. My personality could be seen only after that bs. Also, I love how at some point wbg nailed us all. He never gave good explanation('lol you're scum; if you think this is town you are sad'), but it's awesome how he had that intuitive read  I'll definitely play much more Mafia with you guys, I loved it. I just think you are all too aggressive, but I guess it's part of the spirit of the game heh :D Please play more, you did well for a first time mafia player, but it's always easy to get off your first scum game, because people will ignore you. and yes, Greymist's role was bullshit, Mass-claiming should be a viable town strategy. It's retarded to have mechanics directly punishing it. It should be punished by mafia having good fake-claims. (which is also why I hate role cops and detectives, but like alignment cops, mafia can easily fake those). | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
That's not a good position to be in, and does not allow you to come in and tell townies how they should or should not have been playing. | ||
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Palmar
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On December 01 2011 01:08 chaoser wrote: plays bad with shitty reads that caused chaos, blames others for playing bad thus causing your shitty reads. that's a meme right? Yawn. Not meta, just not optimal play. I expect some townies to play optimally. Anyway, it is irrelevant, your alignment was not of any big concern that game because you had no chance of joining that town group if you aligned yourself. I'm not blaming you, I specifically said that I had much to improve upon, that doesn't mean I can't point out things that went wrong. You made yourself a target on day 1. That's always an issue. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 02:15 chaoser wrote: You do realize that any definition of "optimal" is flawed because there's no way to measure that right? Not to mention, at any point in time, to expect people to play optimally is inherently flawed due to outside world factors. If you mean everyone should play in one specific manner that you consider optimal than I'd rather not play mafia anymore cause that's just silly. Coag and kenpachi should clearly just stop playing if people are going to lynch them straight up day 1 cause they are no where close to "optimal" play even though they're boss at not only catching mafia but shooting the shit out of them the meme was aimed at WBG btw. The way you both approached day 1 was so flawed with the tunneling and playing solely based on some misconceived notion about my "meta", not to mention the excessive tunneling on me. I was waiting and waiting for you guys to be like ok, I'm tunneling, I need to reassess and you guys never did it, which was ridiculous. You need two people to dance that tango on day 1/2 and you and WBG directly contributed to that chaos by tunneling. So don't go around saying people played bad and caused chaos and fucked up your reads when you were the one playing horribly and played an equal part in causing said chaos (addressed to WBG, obviously) Arguing this is pointless. Your number one responsibility is to establish your innocence. If you become in danger of getting lynched at any point in the game, you're the problem. I fuck up as town too. See, I almost never get lynched as town. I have twice in like 14 games or something been lynched as town, once because I was completely new and thought claiming third party was a good play, and once in a weird situation I don't want to talk about as that game is in process. If everyone who played town, played in a way that they don't get lynched, then town would win all the time. And I don't expect Kenpachi and Coagulation to play optimally or logically or well. I hate playing with them and I would have no problem with killing them night 1 in all games I play. I heard you were good, so I expected good play from you. Look at Tyrran, everyone was 100% sure he was town night one. That was brilliant play. WBG and I deduced each other's alignments really fast and started forming a circle. Problem is, early reads are often wrong. I have no issues with people giving me a hard time night 1, because I know 90% of he time it's not like it's going to get me lynched. You had to sub out, which was unfortunate, I look forward to playing with you again, because if you had kept up your play you'd have ended up on the right side. MrZentor didn't really do anything in the game after you left, so his lynch was almost policy. Expect wrong reads, I could well have been mafia trying to push a mislynch, just make sure you cannot in any possible way get lynched, and it's not a problem at all. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 03:55 Lemonwalrus wrote: I suck at mafia.  The only time I ever did what might be considered well was when I was scum and had teammates directing my actions. Although I'm willing to blame excessive business for part of the inactivity portion of my suck in this game. I think I'm going to take a break from mafia or only join smaller games until I know for sure I can commit the time and effort to pull my own weight. I don't know... you seem to be capable of posting reasonably when you put your mind to it. I think more activity, and more active discussion with players would help you a lot. Despite me complaining about people doing incorrect plays, that simply means there is room for improvement. No one in this game has failed as colossally as I did when I started playing. Try to bounce ideas off other players when you're playing. Throw something out there, and ask for feedback. That's one of the best ways to improve and it gives other a read on your alignment, | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:20 chaoser wrote: lol, i never got lynched? I doubt you could have gotten me lynched had I not gotten sick. I don't think you've EVER gotten me lynched. I also haven't been day 1 lynched since forever. And I'm pretty sure I've carried more games than you have. Go read some mafia history kkk? And you didn't address the part about the elitist/i am better/holier than thou attitude I see. I'd add some more vitriol but I wouldn't want to mean so I'll just politely ask you to go headbutt a bullet and be done with it. I agree. Your reactions to the pressure on day1/night1 were enough to carry your replacement through to like day 4 or something, and he did nothing to either help town or try to establish your innocence. I actually think you having to leave was one of the turning point where town started losing the game. You were always going to prove yourself innocent. The fact you didn't get close to dying despite pressure is testament of your good play. The only thing I'm proud of myself this game is the fact that despite LSB's pressure I was never a serious lynch candidate. And I guess my prplhz = town analysis was pretty solid too. And yeah, I'll take full responsibility now that I read the OP and see there is a warning against claiming. I still think it's a retarded game mechanic, but it's my fault not reading that carefully enough. Massclaiming should be a viable tactic for town. I think it's almost always bad to do it anyway. @Bumatlarge. No one is complaining about your scumhunting. You didn't do worse than most of us anyway, probably better. The only complaint I have about your play is I feel you didn't post actively and transparently enough for everyone to get a read on you. The reason it's easy to get a read on people like syllo/sandroba/bugs/mig is that those people will always engage the thread when they're town, share their views, and thus you can deduce their alignment based on their actions. I felt like you were sitting back for this game, which made it much harder to read you. It's not bad play on your part, it's just inconvenient for fellow townies. I hope I'm not coming across as a douche, I think we can have a conversation about the game without resorting to insults against each other. I am definitely not guilt free in this game. Pushing for Forumite dead was dumb. Giving Cyber_Cheese a free pass when his play was terrible for town was even dumber, and most of all, not properly reading the OP and assuming the game wasn't rigged was super-dumb. It was all in all my worst town performance since the original PTP. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:51 chaoser wrote: np palmar, everyone did badly. Or else town wouldn't have lost. That's something that I'm sure everyone can admit. But when WBG goes around saying "omg omg you're all so bad! that's why I made bad reads/calls/votes!" and indirectly implies that he was in no way a part of that failure, or that his bad play is somehow excused is when I call bullshit on that. Yes, sorry. I don't think you can say we attacked you with no reasons though. You voted Forumite with no reasoning, someone I had a pretty strong town read at the time, and later you voted sinani206, another player I had a town read on. I also do not agree with anyone that opposes LAL. It's a policy every town game should have, all the time. It just makes things more simple for town. And I do not agree with day 1 roleclaims. This, in addition to the fact you acted so much like someone who _wanted_ to get votes on people and get away with it (now that you know my role you can probably understand why I noticed it), ticked me off about your play early in the game. Those are valid reasons to ask more questions, but none of them make you conclusively scum, as can be seen on your flip. Thing is, I've never played with you as town for an extended time before, and people hold you to be very good at mafia. When I assume someone "Good at mafia" I assign them a profile to which I expect them to play to, or something in that direction. After this game, I will be accounting for the fact you are capable of playing aggressively and borderline trolling to get discussion going. This is not a bad thing, it's just something I didn't expect. (Note: you have seen me do very similar things in XLIV) Anyway, GG everyone. I'm impressed with several new people in this game, I hope you all stick around. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: From day posts: After Coag died I was also the one to pick up on the smoke bomb usage (I was already dead though), am I the only one that reads the "flavor" text? :-P I never read dayposts. I'm of the opinion outside factors should not affect the game in any way. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:23 GreYMisT wrote: Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles. No no, it's my fault. But I do consider them outside factors. Everything that isn't direct posting by the players is. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:44 xsksc wrote: Reading all that hate made me sad D: Always gets a little heated. People get over it. I hope you're playing again, you made an excellent call protecting me night one, that required both guts and good insight, seeing as I'm always controversial. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
First off, let me say I think your game was fairly balanced, and I think the setup was for the most part very fun. The things I pointed out are not really specific to your setup, just things I enjoy or don't enjoy in general. So it's not a criticism of your game, or a lash out towards the setup, as much as it is simply me expressing how I feel about various mechanics, especially for future games. I will be the first person to sign up for your next game, and I will enjoy it just as much as I enjoyed this one. Do not take my criticism of mechanics as a complaint the game isn't balanced. I fully appreciate how many power roles town had this game, and I'm also aware that with no other modifications, multi-lynch is good for town. I hope we can both see the distinction of agreeing with game mechanics and agreeing about balance. Multi-lynch vs Vigilantes Multi-lynch in a normal game is town favored. I think we can all agree to that. The problem with it is that if you remove all the vigilantes from the game for the multi-lynch, you lose an equally important kill for town. If 5-8 people in a 30 player game are being inactive and lurking, the chances town will successfully the scum among those are very little, since every competent scum team can deflect it onto a random town lurker/useless person. When the lurkers all have equally bad thread presence, it's not even scummy to push a lynch on one of them over another. The problem lies in the fact that when 5 people in your game have posted once, there is no case to be made against any one of them. Even if town agreed to kill a lurker, any mafia team can deflect the lurker lynch onto a townie. The vigilante has at least a chance to hit scum. This is where the Vigilantes come in, they have a much higher chance of actually hitting the mafia lurkers, because they don't have to deal with the bureaucracy of pushing a lynch through town, when there is no evidence aginst one over the other. They make shooting lurkers fair. I am of the opinion that every game starting from the 16-20 range desperately needs a town vigilante with at least 2 shots to clear out some of the trash. Mass-Roleclaim As I have already stated, I am the idiot for not reading the OP. I missed that part and it's my bad. That doesn't change my opinion that Mass-claims should be viable as a strategy for town, and the downside should be that it gives town almost no information (due to well thought out fakeclaims) and it gives mafia much more information. That's all the downside mass-claims need. If mafia cannot fake-claim well, then that's their problem. This is also why I like alignment cops and not detectives. It's also why I like scum doctors and town roleblockers. I like roles that can be claimed without saying anything about the alignment of the person claiming the role, and I don't like roles that can auto-confirm themselves. But yes, it's not a criticism on your setup, as you clearly stated it'd be punishable. I just didn't read that part, which is my fault. It's a thought about game-play in general. About day posts containing game-related information Again, it's a difference in preference. You ask: Hmm, I don't wish to unnecessarily antagonize you further, but posts (and PMs) by game hosts are outside factors? How are we supposed to convey game-relevant information to players if these aren't even considered part of the game? My answer is, you should not convey any game-relevant information to players other than what's absolutely necessary. Yes, you need to give cops their check results, and you need to announce who died during the night. There is no need to give anything away about the role that killed him, or any other clue towards the game. That is for the players of the game to figure out. Notice, that in your game this would directly buff mafia, I am not arguing balance, just game mechanics I personally don't agree with. Other people may agree with them, and I am not going to enforce my opinion onto others, I am simply going to state my point of view and explain it. Some people enjoy clues, I don't, that's just the way things work. So thanks for replying to my unexplained complaints in detail without lashing out, as I can clearly see now that while not intended to be an attack on the setup, but rather a disagreement with some mechanics, I may have come across as an asshole, I do that alot. I hope you understand what I meant now. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 01 2011 19:37 syllogism wrote: Also Palmar you never read the OP. Sorry I'm not always here to read it for you. True dat bro. | ||
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