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On September 06 2011 10:22 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 09:54 sandroba wrote:I have no hard proof all I have is behaviour and logic. Mafia is indeed a game of assumptions and that's how you work out the most reasonable explanation. The hard facts I have is that kp was 2 + minion day1 and 1 day2, plus the fact that I've been roleblocked twice while voting bumatlarge when otherwise he would be lynched. Now the number of mafia players present is an important expeculation. I've given many reasons already why a number of mafia greater than 3 would be imbalanced and in one of your posts you agree with my logic. It also can't be lower than 3 due to balance and kp from day1. That being said that does indeed confirm varpulis and sinani as town. One thing I find funny is that you jump all over redFF's claim, but you say nothing about bum's. That is contradictory to your own personal logic. Look at bum's claim. If he was town and indeed had that role how would you use that? You would try to fucking confirm townies by checking lists that had one vote looking for pious. That would be the most obvious thing to do and probably imbalanced as it would 100% confirm a player to bum in that case. Yet you never bothered to look into his claim nor at his behaviour. I wonder why. Another example of contradictory behaviour: On September 05 2011 09:50 Ace wrote:
shut your face.
Jackal is telling the truth and he's legit. Why? How come? Don't you find it slightly intriguing that there is a medic on a setup that people can ressurect? Jackal is suddenly legit to you based on nothing, but somehow you think when other players use reasoning to deduce if a claim is likely or not to be legit than they are "jumping to conclusions". Nice double standards right there. Your rules only apply to others, but not to you when you are pushing your objectives. I believe bum's claim because it is more plausible than redFF's claim. If you were roleblocked I'll think of other possible scenario's but right now I'm very interested in why sinani and redFF's claims dont match up well. redFF messed his claim - you had to have noticed this. Why is bum's claim not good but redFF's legit? I believe Jackal's claim because of the role I have. I'm just waiting to die so I can rape face.
Yes, I noticed some inconsistencies, but I believe they are town, from logic and behaviour. There are plenty of reasons why red would lie about not having more claims as town. At first when he claimed I found it sketchy, but after considering for a bit and looking at the situation, I thought it would be likely that redFF got informed of who the original coroner is at the moment he died and he just *had* to check the person he pushed day 1 (varpulis) to see if he was right. He then wanted sinani to be revived because he was coroner and thus had to claim for the priest to know. If that is actually how it happened or not doesn't really matter because either way I'm positive they are town.
Bum claim is not legit because ON is mafia, thus not pious. Even if he had 3 votes as he claims (one of palmar/wbg must be pious aswell), the only way for him not to be lynched day2 is if ON is pious (not possible) or he is lying.
You don't find it the least bit curious that Bum miraculously survived 2 lynches he should have died? You have claimed another role. Jackal is and imba medic that protects against all scum actions. Do you really believe it's possible that mafia has no role blocker Oh So Great Setup Breaker? If you have half a drop of common sense the answer is they obviously do. Assuming I'm lying about being roleblocked, why the hell mafia did not save redFF if he was scum, and bum/ON town? They could insure redFF did not get lynched with rb despite pious.
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On September 06 2011 10:28 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:24 sandroba wrote:
Also Ace, when I first started playing and I was seeking advice from you on the behaviour of a player that kept mentioning previous games and what a great scumhunter he was, you told me I was right to be suspicious and that those games had no relevance to the current one. Turned out he was scum.
Now you are doing the same thing here, saying you are great and have the most experience, yet this game you have done nothing to find scum or "break" the setup in favor of town. All those other games you played in which you were townie I'm sure you did great. Yet this game all you've done is abitrarily nit-pick on a claim from a COMPLETELY NEW AND MADE UP SETUP that you have no previous knowledge of. You claim it to be absurd, yet you say I'm the one jumping into conclusions. You completely disregard behaviour and other issues and you only push your agenda when convinient. You are not analysing each scenario and pondering everything, you are distorting the information to meet your ultimate goal. You are scum =) Why do you keep doing this. You chastise me for not posting, and now that I'm posting it's "I'm not scumhunting". You can't have it both ways. If you haven't noticed the rules don't apply to me. I'm better than everyone else. Good luck though. When are you going to acknowledge that no one can Counter Claim Coroner in this set up though - whats taking you so long? Surely you are smart enough to have figured this out on Day 1 right? I like how you say I'm disregarding behaviour when that is exactly what this is all about: redFF's behavior with his claim. Read my posts and stop being bitter that you aren't as good as I am.
How can no one counter claim coroner? Thats positive ev for town always, as you can simply lynch both claims.
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In a setup with double lynch and 4 mafia they are guaranteed to lynch a townie and keep 2 kp the whole game if town double mislynches day1, thus making it impossible for town to win. I think I've proven that already? Yeah, I have.
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On September 06 2011 10:43 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:40 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 06 2011 10:38 Ace wrote:
you seem like a huge advocate for balanced games and get really pissed when set ups venture off the norm. So I'm going to put a little bit of faith in you and ask you: How often do you see no-flip games with 15 people have more than 3 scum? Because sandroba's explanation (which makes sense to me) seems to suggest otherwise.
I only get pissed when setups venture off the norm without trying to balance both sides. Which happens a lot because most hosts dont do What If scenarios. But whatever. No flip games with 15 people having more than 3 Scum: A.) 15 player Normals often dont have more than 3 Scum anyway. B.) Reading through the OP there is a possibility for more than 3 Scum because of revival roles for the Town. If the Coroner can confirm players as pro-town then even being revived for 1 Day is a major advantage for the Town. It's essentially a temporary Tree Stump. That being said having more than 3 Scum so that the Town doesn't run wild is likely. C.) redFF, sinani, myself, bumatlarge, jackal - all claimed roles. I know I'm town, and even assuming sinani and redFF are Town, bum being Scum, and Jackal being Town then there has to be some kind of revival role left out there. 2 Coroners, my game ending role, Jackal's alleged role: Thats a lot of power on the Town side. Either the Mafia would have 3 players with brutal roles or more than 3. If we accept that the inhibitor was 1 of them then that leaves 2 Mafia power roles. They'd pretty much have to have the necromancer or some revival roles or else as I said above - this game would end quickly. Which means the last power role has to be something awesome if there are 3 Mafia. A 1 shot sure-fire kill is great, but doesn't scream monstrous to me. I'm not buying the there has to be 3 Mafia argument yet. If you have such a kickass role that activates when you die, why the fuck are you so scared of getting lynched? Really? Show me where I have been scared of getting lynched. Come on read the thread - have I REALLY been trying hard not to get lynched? lol what a scrub
Really simple: Look at Ace's behaviour and activity day 1 and 2 when he was not up for a lynch. His first big post of the game was when ON and bum (his scum buddies) were up for lynching. Now that he is up for a lynch holy shit HUGE spike in activity and arguing his little heart out. How come you were so uninterested in the game before ace? If you are town (lol) and have this game ending ability you can go ahead and kill me with it (or do w/e you will make up later when things look dire).
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On September 06 2011 10:55 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:52 sandroba wrote:
In a setup with double lynch and 4 mafia they are guaranteed to lynch a townie and keep 2 kp the whole game if town double mislynches day1, thus making it impossible for town to win. I think I've proven that already? Yeah, I have. They can have the 2 KP. The Town has a Coroner and revival roles. Every time a Townie revives he is effectively a Tree Stump so the game isn't impossible for the Town to win. GG thanks for playing.
They get to KEEP 2 kp no matter what. Prove I'm wrong.
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Go read the OP ace.
Also I'm tired of arguing with scum. While fun, it's kinda pointless.
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On September 06 2011 11:05 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:57 sandroba wrote:On September 06 2011 10:43 Ace wrote:On September 06 2011 10:40 wherebugsgo wrote:On September 06 2011 10:38 Ace wrote:
you seem like a huge advocate for balanced games and get really pissed when set ups venture off the norm. So I'm going to put a little bit of faith in you and ask you: How often do you see no-flip games with 15 people have more than 3 scum? Because sandroba's explanation (which makes sense to me) seems to suggest otherwise.
I only get pissed when setups venture off the norm without trying to balance both sides. Which happens a lot because most hosts dont do What If scenarios. But whatever. No flip games with 15 people having more than 3 Scum: A.) 15 player Normals often dont have more than 3 Scum anyway. B.) Reading through the OP there is a possibility for more than 3 Scum because of revival roles for the Town. If the Coroner can confirm players as pro-town then even being revived for 1 Day is a major advantage for the Town. It's essentially a temporary Tree Stump. That being said having more than 3 Scum so that the Town doesn't run wild is likely. C.) redFF, sinani, myself, bumatlarge, jackal - all claimed roles. I know I'm town, and even assuming sinani and redFF are Town, bum being Scum, and Jackal being Town then there has to be some kind of revival role left out there. 2 Coroners, my game ending role, Jackal's alleged role: Thats a lot of power on the Town side. Either the Mafia would have 3 players with brutal roles or more than 3. If we accept that the inhibitor was 1 of them then that leaves 2 Mafia power roles. They'd pretty much have to have the necromancer or some revival roles or else as I said above - this game would end quickly. Which means the last power role has to be something awesome if there are 3 Mafia. A 1 shot sure-fire kill is great, but doesn't scream monstrous to me. I'm not buying the there has to be 3 Mafia argument yet. If you have such a kickass role that activates when you die, why the fuck are you so scared of getting lynched? Really? Show me where I have been scared of getting lynched. Come on read the thread - have I REALLY been trying hard not to get lynched? lol what a scrub Really simple: Look at Ace's behaviour and activity day 1 and 2 when he was not up for a lynch. His first big post of the game was when ON and bum (his scum buddies) were up for lynching. Now that he is up for a lynch holy shit HUGE spike in activity and arguing his little heart out. How come you were so uninterested in the game before ace? If you are town (lol) and have this game ending ability you can go ahead and kill me with it (or do w/e you will make up later when things look dire). I'm posting more because I actually have time. Nice try though. My "huge spike in activity" doesn't imply anything about my alignment. The fact that I'm actually trying to die pretty much cements that. derp derp. Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 10:58 sandroba wrote:On September 06 2011 10:55 Ace wrote:On September 06 2011 10:52 sandroba wrote:
In a setup with double lynch and 4 mafia they are guaranteed to lynch a townie and keep 2 kp the whole game if town double mislynches day1, thus making it impossible for town to win. I think I've proven that already? Yeah, I have. They can have the 2 KP. The Town has a Coroner and revival roles. Every time a Townie revives he is effectively a Tree Stump so the game isn't impossible for the Town to win. GG thanks for playing. They get to KEEP 2 kp no matter what. Prove I'm wrong. I said you can keep the 2 KP. Your scenario breaks because revived Townies always have incentive to claim. derp derp.
So what? Mafia being 4 they actually get to use one of the lynches as kp too. Prove that town can win assuming double mislynch day1 and 4 mafia (with at least 1 necro 1 rb 1 minion).
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Ace and bum = trolling when they are about to lose
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wbg do not feed the trol =P
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If redFF was mafia claiming that shit why would he claim he can check 2 people? Mafia would never claim that shit. If he had some kind of agend behind his claim and wanted something out of it he would keep it as simple as possible.
1) He claimed the coroner is dead. Huge risk for mafia as any coroner claim would get both lynched and net us one free scum always.
2)Since his claim rellied on no coroner counter claim anyway, why in hell claim coroner aprentice? If he wanted sinani alive why not claim: I'm coroner, I checked sinani, he is town. Why the hell would you say you checked 2 people in the first place, as that would have to be pulled out of nowhere, there is no mention of this in the OP and would only serve to draw more suspicion onto you.
That makes no sense as mafia. NO SENSE. It's ludicrous.
@Ace that's not behaviour analysis. That's trying to make something out of nothing and twist it like you want to get your expected result.
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On September 06 2011 12:32 wherebugsgo wrote:
Hey Jackal what do you think of Ace?
Sandroba you too, I'm curious.
I think he is scum and his mysterious power is bullshit. I think he know he can't avoid the lynch and is voting himself because it doesn't matter or to try to confuse us later with an absurd claim. There is absolutely no reason to not have claimed w/e it is right now if he was indeed dead set on dieing.
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On September 06 2011 17:12 Ace wrote:
heh, and it makes sense if redFF is Scum along with Sinani.
Scum wouldn't reanimate him anyway since he'd be a zombie and die 3 days later. So they get the High Priest to rez Sinani and go a long their merry way. Necro rez on someone else.
Varpulis and ON could both be Town. Mafia KP dropped because redFF got lynched. Sinani of course claims to have checked ON and flipped Inhibitor. Inhibitor, the role that allegedly blocked sandroba twice, even though I think most mods by now dont allow that to happen. So now the role blocking power is gone. sandroba's alibi lives, Sinani lives via ON being "confirmed" Scum.
Why didn't this scenario play out for any of you?
When I pull my little stunt, if ON is Scum the Necromancer has to revive him. There is no way they'd leave their inhibitor dead. If ON is not revived you should seriously question what happened with that Day 2 lynch.
Ace this scenario played out in my head for some time. Look at how I posted that redFF was in no means confirmed town when he first posted his claim. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that if mafia was risking a coroner counter claim and their agenda was to get the priest to revive sinani, then they would claim plain coroner with one check on sinani. I also though about the number of scum that is plausible in this game and concluded it's very likely to be three, and based on kp from day1 that made sinani town (which I though he was day1 anyway). That being said that would be no reason for mafia to pull a claim like that considering everything above, so I ruled it out without questioning redFF much, because I thought he was hiding something from mafia.
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@jackal we know that priest is still alive (and not me because I've been roleblocked) based on the order the effects go through. Protect one wbg/chaos/kenpachi tonight, as one of those ought to be priest.
I'm a little puzzled about your claim and iGrok's flow chart of order of effects. How is a protection role even possible if other effects come after killing effects? huh?
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Also since you prevent actions, you should have to act even before roleblocker.
iGrok, can you clarify if it's possible for something to act before roleblocking effects?
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On September 06 2011 23:41 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 22:34 sandroba wrote:
@jackal we know that priest is still alive (and not me because I've been roleblocked) based on the order the effects go through. Protect one wbg/chaos/kenpachi tonight, as one of those ought to be priest.
I'm a little puzzled about your claim and iGrok's flow chart of order of effects. How is a protection role even possible if other effects come after killing effects? huh? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11254029It's not in other effects. Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects. It's a blocking effect. I block all evil doers from visiting a person during that day cycle. If I have chosen a person to protect and scum try to hit them or role block them they are blocked. Scum cannot target a person I am protecting. I have already picked the person I am protecting. I will in all likelihood continue to protect this person as long as I am still alive. No I'm not telling you who it is.
Yeah, it's best if you don't. Your explanation kinda makes sense. Just please consider one of those 3 because I'm almost positive the HP is in there.
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On September 06 2011 23:43 Jackal58 wrote:
As I also stated before I do not block town aligned actions.
Yeah, but you realize your role makes little sense in this setup right? Just make sure you are aiming at the HP when you use if you are telling the truth.
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rofl sup
can we change to bum + jackal? maybe there is a chance that ace is not scum, but jackal's claim is mod confirmed impossible lol
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Okay iGrok just edited and added "unless otherwise specified". I'm fine with lynching ace today as long as we make sure jackal gets lynched tomorrow if the game does not end. Maybe ace is just being stuborn about his redFF + sinani scum team.
A question that no one has asked yet is why mafia used their minion shot on jackal. One possible explanation is that bum was minion so they had to use it on day1, so they couldn't take the risk of bum getting lynched and wasting their shot. But then why shoot jackal when their kills were sknowman/drazerk/jackal? Seriously who is less likely to be blue amongst those 3? Certainly not jackal. The explanation that makes the most sense would shoot the necro thus making 2 necros by today when jackal revived, in adition to creating confusion.
TL;DR jackal is likely scum instead of ace.
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On September 05 2011 09:31 Jackal58 wrote:
Bum is scum. His late claim is BS.
I was minion hit. I received a PM from iGrok when I died advising me to continue watching the game because I would be resurrected at the beginning of the next day. The only thing that fits that is a minion hit.
From the OP: No players are told how a character is returned to life.
Since jackal was told he would get revived as soon as he died, the only possiblity is that he was a minion hit. Why would a host inform a player of that? The priest could very well be dead today and we could be facing only 2 ressurections and there is no reason jackal should have extra info about his ressurection as town. As scum of course he does since someone on his team shot him.
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EPT
