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On June 12 2011 00:06 Kurumi wrote:THE PLAN Hello Townies! Planning ahead our play is a really good way to get on the right track. I want to make some points for us to follow. - We shall not accept lurking. Active lurking (not posting but responding almost immediately to any sort of attack) is treated as scummy and will be punished.
- We shall not accept posters who do not express their feelings about players, are extremely cautious and have vague opinions about everything.
- We shall not accept people jumping on bandwagons without good explanation. Saying:
"They have already pointed that out"
"They seem scummy to me"
QUOTE: Player X is scum because Y,Z /QUOTE "I agree"
Is NOT enough!
- We shall not accept people who post without substance just to appear they contribute.
"Bandwagonner Johnny is scummish, because noone would jump on such bandwagon without good evidence. The lynch of Scum Joe wouldn't help, his posting thus far was good.
(Notice lack of expressing thoughts,those are empty statements,without anything linking person talking to the case,there's no "I think" "He is good lynch because of his errors like here: *insert post*" "His posting was good because here: *insert post* he tried to pressure Dianne the Lurker and after it I think Dianne painted herself as scum."
- We shall not accept people who bring down every plan,try to silence discussion and divert attention without strong evidence on someone else.
Feel free to add something to that list. I hope it is good enough for us to catch scum and hopefully get it lynched.
Given the fact that kurumi is insane and has pretty much accused everyone at one point or another as being scum, I think we should just completely ignore anything he posts from now on, especially ones with superfluous red and green in them.
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On June 12 2011 00:26 Xedat wrote:
Alright, I am at my parents and not at the pc very often, I will be pretty inactive the next 48 hours.
Is there a post with the final vote? Or is the last one where amazing and igrok have both 13 votes the correct one?
It would be pretty risky for vain to vote for jackal if the vote between iGrok and amazing is so close and he is mafia.
I will vote for grush57 as he is the fishiest guy that voted for amazing, maybe when I have a bit more time I will read more of his posts and analyze him a bit.
the 13-13 post is correct except CjrNinja is listed twice. While it is true that mafia could have swayed the vote to protect iGrok, it wouldn't be the first time that they have acted sub-optimally.
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here is a post by post summary of grush57
+ Show Spoiler +
I honestly don't know what to think, nothing really stands out as being scummy. What I would like to know is where/who the initial accusations about grush came from.
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On June 12 2011 01:16 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 01:09 Pyo wrote:here is a post by post summary of grush57 + Show Spoiler +I honestly don't know what to think, nothing really stands out as being scummy. What I would like to know is where/who the initial accusations about grush came from. You're playing against all the points of my plan,which listed every scum move You can do. You're scum,Pyo. You don't express Your thoughts. You just state things. You don't make a statement about player,You leave it with "I don't know" or "I haven't made my mind up yet".
All I've been doing is providing links to every post by each person with a short summary of what was said for the sake of making analyzing them easier. I'll also point out that you are doing the same thing I am except not collecting observations - or do you really believe that everyone is scum? I don't think you're mafia, but you are being incredibly unhelpful to anyone. Every one of your posts is an incoherent ramble or wild baseless accusation. Honestly, this will probably be the last time I even acknowledge your presence in this thread.
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about time town got something right.
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35spike1 was actually pretty high on my list of mafia.
I guess 1/2 the town/mafia getting modkilled is par for the course with a noobie game.
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On June 13 2011 13:59 supersoft wrote:
2 mafioso and 18 townies
Wait, I only count 19. Who am I missing?
1. Munk-E
2. blackone
6. teamsolid
8. Alderan
9. Treadmill
10. Drazerk
15. TranceStorm
16. heist
19. freeloader625
21. supersoft
23. Xedat
26. CjrNinja
27. Pyo
30. Vain
31. Kurumi
34. Kairo
35. omgCRAZY
36. gtrsrs
39. aprudds
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On June 13 2011 14:47 heist wrote:
All 3 mafia who died this day voted for amazingxkcd. I think it's a safe assumption that NO mafia voted for iGrok. I think we should continue this game based on this assumption.
Treadmill
Alderan
Blackone
Aprudds
Munk-E
These are the only ones left on that list.
Vain and teamsolid are the ones who voted for Jackal and thus of lower priority but still possibilities.
The ones on the list should be your DT targets.
and yourself?!?! trying to draw attention away from yourself I see.
In any case, I think it is a perfectly reasonable strategy for town to lynch the remaining players who voted for xkcd and for any DT that knows who at least 2 mafia are to just come forward and sacrifice yourself (remember that there are still millers) so we can end this game faster. I mean at 2 mafia to 18 (or 17 by my count) townies so there's only 1 mafia KP, randomly picking someone should be a winning strategy for town, especially if we kill the people who voted for iGrok last.
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Since grush was sure to be lynched, I don't think you can necessarily conclude that the remaining mafia didn't just bus him to give themselves town cred. In other words, I don't think that you can really draw strong conclusions about the day 3 vote like you could on day 2 where the outcome was very close.
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A post by TheAwesomeAll in the mafia ban list. From this post it would seem as though mafia like to wait till the last minute to place their votes. Considering lafali also tried doing this (but was too late), I think it might be reasonable to assume that mafia might be doing this as a general policy.
Looking at the voting, there are only 2 people who have been consistently waiting until the last hour to vote: freeloader and Munk-E
freeloader did vote for iGrok, so I'm a little less suspicious of him, but if you combine the late posting with his lurking and his post history, I think Munk-E might be one of the remaining mafia.
post history:
+ Show Spoiler +
This post by iGrok also adds further suspicion in my opinion. For one, it reveals that Munk-E's accusation of lafali came at a point where a lynch of someone else was inevitable and lafali was about to get modkilled. Also, it is curious that iGrok would respond to this post.
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I'm going to LoL so hard if the remaining mafia members just got themselves modkilled...
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Woohoo, I'm finally free of this modkill-ridden game. At least I didn't die from a kurumi-induced aneurysm. GL HF everyone.
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Some of my thoughts:
lol kairo fail 
I love how both gtrsrs and myself got roleblocked. I think that these were probably bad decisions given how vocal and accusatory we were both being. We also probably weren't DT's pushing for anything given that our tunneling of iGrok began on day 1.
Also, my analysis of Munk-E must have been dead on given that he was the one who hit me. Although given the direction the town was headed, it was already gg and it didn't matter who the mafia hit. I'll still stand by my previous statement that getting hit probably saved me from an IRL kurumi-induced aneurysm (screw you Vain for saving him ><).
All in all I think that the biggest reason for the mafia defeat was the modkills. lafali getting modkilled was the nail in the iGrok coffin (although iGrok really didn't help his case by being overly patronizing in a newbie mafia, which brought suspicion on himself in the first place). Ultimately, I'd call it a misplay by iGrok combined with some town luck - I think he should have realized that in a newbie game none of his "experience" accounts for anything because the premise of the game is to be deceitful and suspicious of others. Additionally, the early reduction in mafia KP for night 1 and again for night 2 from silly modkills really limited their ability to do make anything go their way.
The xkcd/iGrok situation was what finally sealed the deal for the mafia. It was incredibly lucky for town that the numbers worked out as they did forcing mafia to either let their GF die or all vote for the same person. In retrospect, if one of them had bussed iGrok there by mistake, the game could still be going on (especially with the aid of modkills, the tides could have been turned really fast).
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On June 16 2011 08:00 Munk-E wrote:
lol! See aprudds! I told you vain would've been a better target than pyo!
Wait, I'm just curious, but what was the rationale for picking me? I would have thought that my being pretty vocal was a clear indication of me not being a blue (or at least not caring if I got hit).
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On June 16 2011 08:16 gtrsrs wrote:kurumi i humbly request you to not sign up for any more games that i sign up for but i look forward to playing with pyo and trancestorm and some more of you in the future 
Well as for me, I have no intention of ever playing in another mafia with Kurumi ever again. I will preemptively /out of any mafia game that actually includes him.
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On June 16 2011 08:21 gtrsrs wrote:
also i can't wait for iGrok to come in and tell us that tunneling him was bad play and we're bad players
i remember this one time on epicmafia where we had a set-up with
Cop
Doctor
Fool (village idiot)
3 mafia
2 town
and the cop died night 1. traditionally the fool claims cop and tries to joint-win with the mafia. so this smartass immediately after the flip was like "i'm the cop" and then "i retract"
to everyone else he was just being funny but i saw right through it and pegged him as mafia pretending to be the fool. so i asked the town to start piling votes on him to see how he'd react. of course if he really was the fool he would have hammered his own vote and won the game but he kept screaming at us to take our votes off him because he retracted and blah blah blah
he flipped as the roleblocker and we won a nearly impossible-to-win set-up. the whole time in the "dead player chat" (where people who have been killed can chat with each other while they watch the game finish) he was bitching about how bad of a player i was for lynching someone based on a smartass comment, pretty much how iGrok was saying we shouldn't lynch him based on my suspicions. anyways it was really vindicating as he -karma'd my account and left me a bunch of comments about how bad i was and i was just like
lol u mad?
well, to be fair, you don't really have to be a dick about it. I mean good job being the first to pick up on iGrok, but rubbing it in like that is just as bad as iGrok being the pompous jack-ass that first tipped you off.
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On June 16 2011 08:42 CjrNinja wrote:Thanks to Meapak and Varpulis for moderating twas a fun game.
I'll second this. Thanks for hosting a mafia game for newer player to get an idea of how things work, even if it did get ruined by a bunch of modkills.
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EDIT: spilered the quotes since the post was really long and the game is over.
Some thoughts on the thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2011 13:13 GGQ wrote:
-so Day 2, happily things started out pretty much as I would have tried to make them go if I was still alive. iGrok is being pressured hard (cheers for those who took up the torch!), forcing a two-person vote that was tight from the very start of the day. This should force mafia out, first to try to divert votes, then to try to defend iGrok to keep him alive.
At first I got on iGrok's trail because he was being a jerk. It wasn't until the first night after reading your post that it really occurred to me, he wasn't being an arrogant douche per se, he was just trying to sheep people. At this point I was absolutely sure he was mafia, but wasn't sure exactly how to proceed given that I was a little worried about coming off too obviously town and didn't want to get night hit.
+ Show Spoiler +
-for those who arent convinced iGrok is scum, here’s a thought process that you should have in a situation like this. The votes are close. Very close, and they have been all day. There’s been no serious attempt to split votes and distract the town. That means mafia aren’t fucking around. One of the two players, iGrok or amazingxkcd, is scum and the mafia are trying to save him. A surprising number of people are actually considering that both of them are scum. What? Really? How does that make sense? What’s the mafia’s plan then? IF they were both scum, you can bet that the thread and the voting list would look MUCH different. There would be accusations flying in every direction creating WIFOM if one of them actually got lynched. Plus they would definitely be bussing each other to make the other look better when lynched. Instead we have xkcd defending iGrok and iGrok pretty much ignoring xkcd. No, only one is scum. You need to look at who is getting sketchier people defending him. In this vote, the sketchier people are defending iGrok and voting for amazingxkcd. Thus we lynch iGrok.
I was definitely one of those guilty of thinking that they were both mafia. Mostly this was because I was lazy and didn't really think it through, but part of it was me being confused by xkcd's excessively long analysis post filled with bad analysis. I remembered iGrok doing something like it on day 1, so I wasn't really sure what to think about him.
+ Show Spoiler +
-for those who already believe iGrok is scum, this close lynch should only confirm that for you. Mafia are scrambling to win this lynch. That means you need to look carefully at who is defending him or just avoiding analyzing him. Naturally, some townies will be defending him, but these will generally at least explain their thoughts and reasoning in a believable manner (though it can be hard to identify that in a game full of new players...). As it turns out, almost the entire mafia team has already identified themselves in this way (munk-e hasn’t posted on day 2 yet as of the time of this writing...) Read on to see how.
while it turned out that the entire mafia team did vote xkcd to try to save iGrok, I had become very suspect of the mafia and whether they were actually playing optimally or even in their best interest. After all, why would they double hit you (GGQ) on day 1. That just makes no sense at all. Did they really think your analysis was that dangerous that they had to remove you? Given how correct you were, maybe that was something that iGrok et. al. were cognizant of, but it just didn't make much sense. Given this sub-optimal play, all the mafia having voted for xkcd wasn't such a sure thing to me. I kind of would like to know what a more experienced observer/participant thinks about this.
+ Show Spoiler +
-aprudds: probably the hardest one to catch, but the first that should have raised suspicions. While town talk is about iGrok’s suspiciousness and whether to lynch him, aprudds says only that my case on him was good with no further explanation or follow through, then proceeds to throw accusations around on drazerk and xkcd and jackal, trying to find another target. Avoids actually discussing iGrok or the arguments against him. Remember that he defended lafali on day 1 as well
To be honest, he was the first one I was actually suspicious of in the game because of his day 1 accusation of freeloader. In fact I actually voted for him at first. However, iGrok acted more suspicious and given aprudds limited participation, I figured if he is mafia, then at least he's not trying to mislead or confuse town, so he'd be a lower priority lynch. After the day 2 voting fiasco and all the modkills, he kind of just drifted out of my consideration. Fortunately he reappeared on the defend lafali/vote for xkcd list.
+ Show Spoiler +
-grush, spike, and amazingall: all three bandwagon on xkcd while bringing nothing new against either iGrok or xkcd. Another theme for all three players is that they say something like ‘the case against iGrok is good’ or ‘GGQ’s analysis of iGrok can’t be ignored’ or some shit like that to make it seem like they are at least considering iGrok as a suspect, while in reality they all just vote immediately for xkcd and defended iGrok afterwards. This should ring major alarm bells. They’ve decided before the fact that they are going to defend iGrok and vote xkcd but they don’t want it to look that way
I realized this too, but I really didn't put 2 and 2 together to realize what this meant. The nagging issue of I'm not experienced, so I don't really know how people would normally act/are expected to act really got me here. Fortunately, we got lucky in that they either modkilled themselves or drew enough suspicion from others.
+ Show Spoiler +
-now, I’m not saying you should have picked these guy out as the scum right away, I doubt I would have gotten all of them either. There were several other people who seemed like they would have been suspicious to me if I didn’t already know the role list. These include impervious who ignored the events of the night and the iGrok issue and instead tried to get everyone to post their experience (“Contributing without contributing”), heist who had his vote on someone irrelevant, and perhaps cherubael for voting xkcd without explanation. Some people suspected Treadmill for constantly defending iGrok, but even though he was wrong about pretty much everything on day 2, the tone and motivation of his posts were clearly townie. But the way that most of the mafia players are making posts trying to make it look like they are doing something that they actually arent should be the red light telling you to lynch them.
lol impervious was on my list too. In any case that's some interesting advice that I'll keep in mind going forward.
+ Show Spoiler +
-also, jackal is not scummy in this game. Yeah he played quite poorly on day 2, doing more or less nothing. But his decision to lynch rookie on day 1, while it was a poor read, had no mafia motivation; there was no other lynch or valuable discussion going on that needed to be diverted. Votes were split etc etc
I was so sure that he town that it didn't even occur to me that a vigi would kill him. Given that the list of "experienced" mafia players outlined by iGrok, cross-referenced with looking back at old mafia games, it just didn't make sense for both him and iGrok to be mafia. And he was, I was almost sure that jackal would have been the godfather.
+ Show Spoiler +
-so munk-e ended up coming in at the last moment and finishing the lynch on xkcd instead of iGrok. When iGrok flips red, that’s suspicious enough, but the fact that both days he’s lurked until the very end, then come in with one post and a vote to avoid modkill should raise eyebrows.
I'm really proud of myself for having picked up on this!! seeing lafali modkill himself by voting late and then TheAwesomeALL stating in the ban list thread (I was just looking at his post history) that he had been trying to vote at the last minute but forgot really sealed the deal for me on Munk-E. Unfortunately, I got night killed after pointing this out.
-night 2; it should be clear with xkcd flipping town that iGrok must be mafia. vigis should shoot immediately, and investigations should begin into the people who defended iGrok and voted for xkcd
+ Show Spoiler +
-ok so apparently iGrok is getting killed instead now. weird and wild. But with him flipping red, there is more than enough evidence out there for a skilled vigilante to shoot grush/spike/awesomeall tonight. munk-e would be a good dt check, and while aprudds has done a good job blending in with his posts, he now shows up on the lafali defense list, iGrok’s don’t lynch list, and the xkcd lynch list. That’s enough to call for a dt check too. Good luck.
-jackal is looking worse and worse as the game goes on. What’s up man? Not really interested in this game?
-jackal was shot, but everyone seems to be pretty much on the right track for now. I’ll probably stop writing this unless something unexpected happens.
After iGrok got lynched and 4 mafia got modkilled, it was basically GG and it seemed as though everyone lost interest in the game.
Anyway, thanks for your notes GGQ, some really insightful stuff. I now know who's history to follow to learn how to play this game.
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On June 16 2011 21:44 Barundar wrote:
I haven't read the game, but Kurumi is by far the most chaotic player I have played with. It's not all bad though, sometimes throwing stones around provides results. What did he do that was so terrible?
On June 16 2011 21:10 supersoft wrote:
I don't know where all the hate for Kurumi comes from. Everyone has his own playstyle. I like Kurumis style. He is unpredictable and that's not a bad thing in mafia.
Playing with kurumi is like playing one of those obnoxious terrans who SCV rushes you and flies their CC into a corner of the map and then BMs you while you waste 10-15 minutes realizing exactly what he did then tech up to void ray/corruptor/viking to go deal with him. Sure it's technically a way to play but it isn't good play, it isn't a winning strategy and it is really annoying to just about everyone else. His actions don't help town, as they're a huge distraction which can lead town to waste a vote on him or some random townie. His actions don't help the mafia as they are far too disorganized and devoid of strategy. He's basically just the village idiot who you have to learn to ignore.
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EPT
