TL Mafia XXXIX
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On April 29 2011 23:23 Barundar wrote:
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On April 29 2011 22:18 chaos13 wrote:
/in if there's still room
New player, learned about you guys from Coagulation and Jackal58, who brought it to another site I go on.
On May 04 2011 11:28 ilovejonn wrote:
chaoser and chaos13 posting within 3 minutes of each other, SUSPICIOUS!
Shit! You're onto us!
Irish, Coag is coaching but not playing. Jackal is playing though.
I realize I should not have come to Irish's defense so quickly. However, I have no patience for unfounded accusations leading to random lynches. I thought you simply misinterpreted his post to mean "I know the roles of 3-4 people" and wanted to correct you before you actually did vote for him and got a bandwagon on a potentially innocent townie.
On May 04 2011 23:50 kitaman27 wrote:
Huh? Why should you be worried about coming to people's defense? Only scum worry about getting connected to others. A town does not feel guilty about standing up for someone they feel is innocent.
Because I don't know if he is innocent or not yet.
Kurumi has not done anything to redeem himself in my eyes. His posts have remained useless and confusing. I don't see what a townie would have to gain by lining themselves up for a lynch, so I think that is just his defense for being caught as scum, trying to make us afraid to lynch him so we aren't labeled as scum. If he flips red, then we can take a closer look at the people who are connected to him, such as Irish_Punk. He is standing out to me more than any other player so far.
This is a huge guide for new players written by redtooth early on in the game.
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 04 2011 16:27 redtooth wrote:
Hello all. Your friendly neighborhood redtooth (aka WRAWRAWRAWRA) here. I've been gone from this forum for quite a long time so there are a lot of new faces that I don't really recognize. Some of you I do recognize but it has been too long for me to remember your meta anyways. Before we continue, let's just lay down a framework-of-sorts for being awesome:
Rule 1: Don't lurk
Lurking is bad - this is the first thing you should learn as a mafia player. In a worst-case scenario, the town may policy-lynch you and waste an entire day simply because you were too forgetful or too lazy to post . In a best-case scenario, you are still a potential scum suspect simply because you were lurking, a situation that could have been avoided had you actively contributed to the thread. If you want to win then don’t lurk.
However, lurking isn’t limited to not posting either. “Active lurking” (the act of posting already stated ideas or not contributing any novel content in a post) is just as detrimental to the town and should be avoided at all costs. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel with every post but do your best to be as pro-town as possible in each and every post.
Rule 2: Don't spam
While activity within the thread is highly encouraged, creating meaningless and contentless clutter is just as anti-town an action. There will be varying degrees of time commitment exhibited by the other players and it discourages people from actively and substantively posting if there are 30 pages of clutter they have to go through every time they log on. That means no one-liner posts, even if they are votes (you should be explaining your vote anyways). Also included in that category are off-topic shit, comments on how exasperated you are, etc. On the flip side, don’t create massive walls of quotes as they simply get gleaned over more often than not (I am breaking my own rule here with this post). Random townies are more likely to quit out of boredom than scum are so try your best to be concise and be precise.
On that note, if non-players (coaches, audience, not-mods) could keep their discussions out of the thread the town would greatly appreciate it. Let’s create a clutter-free environment.
Rule 3: Never Give Up
This is directed at townies. If you're scum, by all means feel free to give up and get modkilled or bussed. However, as mentioned above, it is likely that townies will lose interest in the game much faster than scum will. There are two provisions to this rule: don't stop participating and don't stop defending.
Sometimes your ideas are overlooked or cast aside simply due to the number of strategies or targets being promoted. That doesn’t mean you should stop participating. The town may be tunneling, they may be overlooking something, you may see a scumtell nobody else believes, etc. Each members’ participation is vital to a successful town operation.
Also, there will be cases where you feel extremely frustrated at the (bullshit) evidence being thrown at you despite the fact that you are town. While you may not want to purposefully drag attention to yourself beforehand (since it would be better served looking for actual scum), you should relish the opportunity to defend yourself. A well explained defense can raise the confidence others have in you and gives you more credence in town. Also, getting lynched when you’re town is not only bad for yourself but bad for the town. Do your best to stay alive. No matter how daunting the argument is, don’t give up and keep fighting until you take your last breath or the town sees the light.
Rule 4: Kill Scum
It’s such a simple rule but people (including myself) tend to forget it consistently. Every action you take should ultimately be an attempt to promote town activities and hunt/find scum. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is not something that we benefit from and only serves to boost your ego and create rifts in the town. However, if you really feel that playing devil’s advocate is necessary then by all means go ahead. At the same time, be wary of tunneling (focusing exclusively on one person) as your conviction may convince others to pursue an incorrect lynch. Always have an open mind and a desire to be correct more than to win in your argument. Just remember to keep the main objectives in mind: find scum, prosecute scum, lynch scum, beat scum.
Rule 5: Have Fun
Ultimately, the game is meant to have fun. I will be the first person to admit that this is not always the case as emotions often run rampant. However, do your best not only to have fun for yourself but to promote fun for others. That means trying not to get personal with arguments/defenses and trying your hardest to be the best player you could possibly be.
Also, many players are discouraged when they are given the role of town. Sometimes we think it’s a curse to be one of the many generic roles. People have different tastes but I personally believe it to be just as fun (if not more fun) than being scum. If you’re still not motivated, think of it this way: while sheeping the town is a great feeling, there is no better feeling than nailing a good scum to the wall after a war of words. Be active, be intelligent, kill scum, and enjoy.
Those were all I could think of for now. Follow these guidelines and SCUM WILL LOSE GUARANTEED. Go town!
Notice the last paragraph in this post. redtooth's guide was nothing that could not be found elsewhere on the site, or other mafia-related sites. How then is it so helpful, and why does this make chaoser feel redtooth is more pro-town?
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 04 2011 18:33 chaoser wrote:
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On May 04 2011 18:12 Forumite wrote:
On May 04 2011 15:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:
On May 04 2011 14:09 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so I posted that line just to see how people would respond. You can see that I didn't even post in the actual voting thread and already I think I've got some good reactions. Irish, why such a big response, going so far as to posting a link to another website, even saying that you would dismiss me and "not waste time on trying to convince someone I'm not scum". I didn't even actually vote for you, I posted some bolded words that could have easily been knocked down since there was no analysis behind it, and no logic behind it; it had nothing behind it. Why so serious? Why such a big reaction? Same thing to chaos13.
At the same time, why so much silence on the issue from people who were clearly present? Kitaman? You pop in to say that people shouldn't edit but you don't mention a single thing about Irish, a single thing about me, and a single thing about anything. What up?
I think this long of a post is more suspicious than anything irish punk dude said.
He does have a few points, people need to make constructive posts, even more so with a 30-player game. Also even this early it´s a good move to call out people on their scum-tells.
There's no real such thing as a scum-tell per say. TL doesn't really do the MS "You said good job to medic when he saved someone, you're scum!" kind of deal but there are limitations to what mafia can and can't do. Or at least feel comfortable with doing. If you look at XXXVII, you'll see that mafia found it very hard to make cases against each other and that ended up catching a lot of them. If you look at XXXXVIII, you can see that mafia were decently wishy-washy. By wishy-washy I don't mean they changed their opinions on things, but that they changed them based upon nothing, merely to please the rest of town.
In Simple Mafia, Town because Mafia were inactive and allowed town to dominate the discussion. Even so, you'll notice that most of the time it was town arguing against town, using weak arguments and trying to figure out alliances before anyone even flipped. That's bad play since you don't know how mafia will act towards each other. They could bus each other a bit, they could act friendly, or they might not interact at all. The point is that you should focus on a few people and then make judgements about connections AFTER the flip. On day one, conversation generation is the most important thing, even if it IS the 30th game we're discussing about lynching inactives or not. Pressure is also a good conversation generator and I know for a fact that GM's question asking helps too.
Mafia wants town to have no direction and I'm sure in this game, where it's filled with mostly newbies, the mafia aren't going to go out of their way to help newbie townies. As such, redtooth get's +townie points in my book. Townies should be sure to ask coaches for help and read over guides conveniently localed here:
After someone had questioned how the guide was helpful, chaoser responded with this. The entire post is talking about redtooth, and there is a key line in bold. It can be labeled as WIFOM, but is worth examining nonetheless. Could this be a ploy by a scum player to seem more pro-town in that they are not afraid to be connected to players, and especially to redtooth, to whom he has already been connected?
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 05 2011 00:44 chaoser wrote:
Why shouldn't I point out in my post that helping out newbies is pro-town? In the statement that I made, I mentioned redtooth doing it, not me. I think my posts do a heck of a lot more talking about my alignment than this one little nit-pick.
I didn't say, "look, helping out newbies is pro town okay? OKAY?!?!? NOTICE THIS!!!"
I said, I think redtooth has shown townie behavior and here is the reason why I think so (He was trying to help people).
I don't need to copy redtooth's behavior to be pro-town lol and I don't think our posting has been similar at all aside from the general undertone of "Help new townies." His advice is more general while mine is very much indepth and explanatory. Trust me, I highly doubt mafia would go out of it's way to arm the opposition with weapons that would make their life more difficult. Mafia would rather have half the players inactive and the rest having no idea how to actually play the game.
My advice has been solid. I have shown that I'm not afraid to be connected to multiple people.
The bolded is again a response to a player who mentioned that the newbie guides were essentially useless posts.
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 05 2011 01:41 chaoser wrote:
Sorry, I didn't see it. He has a good point about not going straight for lynching inactives as well as previous game experiences. I disagree with his newbie guides statement. Clearly some people need to use it so making a conscious effort to link them and be like please read them in full is needed. I'm sure most people have skimmed them at best and outright not read them at all at worst. His last statement is wishy-washy.
Assessment: I don't think it's more scummy than you, Kurumi or Irish/chao13 at this point. Just because he shot ideas down doesn't mean he's scummy, that's him expressing his opinion. At the same time, clearly what he stated isn't common sense/obvious since people followed along and focused on previous game experiences. You can't just look at one post and say OMG YOU'RE SCUM! It's behavior over time that tips you off on it. Like I said before, if you feel he is scummy, write it down on a notepad or excel sheet (which is an action I know MOST people DON'T DO!) and compare it to future statements.
At this time and period though I think Kurumi is infinitely more scummy.
Here is where the connection between them really gets interesting. redtooth is now FoS'ing chaoser in order to put some distance between them.
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On May 05 2011 14:48 redtooth wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [Post Write-Up Disclaimer] +
: @ Chaoser – I just read through it again and it has sort of a sharp tone. It’s really late so I can’t be bothered to go back and make it nicer. Just know that it isn’t meant to be a personal attack on your character.
Honestly I would have liked to stay quiet a little bit longer to see how it progressed but since you guys are demanding it, here goes. This essay brought to you by Redtooth, the person who got attacked the last time he made a longpost. Warning, very long:
Reason 1: The Irish Lynch Push
Honestly, let’s be serious: the Irish argument is a joke. There really isn’t enough of a basis to keep pushing it and it has only wasted massive amounts of time that could have been spent doing other stuff. Obviously not many people have been convinced, even though the reasoning behind this is pretty depressing in and of itself.
Back to his strategy. I initially thought that it was just a prolonged Minimalist Approach, something I assumed he was doing ever since he hopped onto my RVS vote. He seemed to have dropped it after a certain point (which was fine with me since it was getting nowhere) but Irish suddenly appeared again as top suspect in a later post making it very clear that Chaoser is still actively pursuing a lynch on Irish.
Since Irish can’t be bothered to defend himself (more on that later), let’s examine Chaoser’s main arguments point-by-point on his behalf (I will paraphrase for the sake of brevity).
Show nested quote +First off, that’s not a scumtell. When two people with Ghost icons start attacking you while acting like they know what they’re doing, you pay attention. As a matter of fact, would it not have been more odd if he didn’t react the way he did? I mean who is comfortable with two “vets” pressing you off the bat, regardless of how much support there is to those presses? I’m curious as to what a normal, expected reaction would have been.
Point 1: Irish had an odd reaction to our combined presses.
Show nested quote +I’ll admit, I was pretty surprised at how much traction Irish’s argument got. However, I wouldn’t call it a “chainsaw defense” as much as it is a desperate attempt to look like you’re scumhunting. Irish didn’t have many choices in this position as he was expected to “hunt scum” and produce new and interesting content. He couldn’t accuse himself (duh). On the other hand, you would have spun an accusation if he jumped on the Kurumi wagon. Besides those two, there literally is nothing to go off of up to that point. This scenario is somewhat less likely so I won’t hold Chaoser as accountable for these 2 points.
Points 2 and 3: Irish creates empty content then chainsaw defends Kurumi by attacking AO.
Show nested quote +See above. There is a sudden expectation on him to create novel contributions to the thread and this honestly seems like a very half-hearted attempt to fulfill those expectations. And you’re right it wasn’t an EBWODP. It was an EBWOP. It’s a picky counterargument to a nitpicky argument. What difference does it make? If anything, it perfectly fits his character of noobtown.
Point 4: “He is wishy-washy”
Show nested quote +You’ve made it very clear that he’s not going to slip your grasp without a serious defense. So why hasn’t he posted one? Because he’s uninterested. Scum is way more likely to fight back til the bitter end (see KillerSOS below) rather than just semi-abandoning a game. It’s not like he’s trying to lurk through it either since his bandwagon seemed to be the biggest at one point.
Redtooth’s Defense, Point 5: He is very uninterested in the game right now
Now you may be saying, “Hey redtooth! This looks more like a defense of Irish than a FoS on Chaoser.” Well the problem is that either Chaoser should have recognized these or he did recognize but chose to ignore them. Since he seems to be a solid player so far, I’m leaning towards the latter and that is the scummiest action exhibited by anybody in this game so far (essentially actively and knowingly promoting a lynch on obvtown).
Everyone, consider the following questions as objectively as possible:
Is it very possible that Irish is simply a noobtown? Yes
Is it very possible that Irish’s “chainsaw defense” was actually just a noobtown analysis? Yes
Is it very possible that Irish’s lack of defense is in his lack of interest in staying alive? Yes
Is it very possible that Chaoser is tunneling, intentional or otherwise? Yes
Reason 2: Active Lurking
Town has been giving Chaoser a LOT of credit for “contributing so much”. However, upon closer examination a lot of them are either logistical posts (request to focus, poke on lurkers, answer to questions, etc), offtopic, or pushing one of his four FoS. They all look good but break them down and there is very little to be had.
As shown by one of the posts quoted above, his attention seems to be spread over four people atm: Irish (primary), Kurumi, KillerSOS, Sinani. I’ve already stated why I think Irish isn’t realscum but let’s address the others as well.
Kurumi is that guy. He is the prototypical hyperactive townie who expended all that energy and lost interest midway through game after being pressured. Honestly, when was the last time someone so blatantly scum actually flipped scum? It’s pretty shocking and discouraging to see Kurumi leading in votes. However, it’s a super easy bandwagon to contribute to since there is a wealth of incriminating behavior and an easy target for active lurking.
The FoS on Sinani is based off of one sentence that could easily have been due to him simply not reading the thread with much detail (very much within the realm of possibility since there’s so much clutter). Another easy-to-press person that was pressed. Relatively recent development so we’ll see how it goes.
KillerSOS is actually a great lead (he’s near the top of my list). However, it’s odd that both KillerSOS and Irish are on the list since they are handling the pressure in totally opposite manners (one totally passive, one full aggressive). Odd behavior isn’t always scum behavior, something he should know very well. ANOTHER easy-to-press person to press, regardless of the merit in the argument. I won’t FoS Killer for now since it wouldn’t make sense for one to be on both him and Chaoser at this point.
And by having 4 people FoS’d this early, Chaoser’s also implying that he’s found over half the scum team 36 hours into the game. I don’t know if it is part of his gamestyle to just mass accuse but all it does is create unfocused chatter as attention is split between 10 suspects and lines of arguments get muddled or skimmed over. You’re a liar if you can say that it is easy to focus on what’s happening in the thread right now.
Ultimately, Chaoser’s actions haven’t been enough to place a vote on him yet. But since he seems to be steadily increasing his voice in town, I suggest you guys definitely approach his statements more warily then has happened thus far. From what’s been said in the thread, it seems like he played pretty well as town the previous game but that trust shouldn’t necessarily be carried into this game. He may be a great town member but it is just as likely that he is scum. I mean it’s gotten so ridiculous that players are now making blanket threats against those who dare even challenge the great Chaoser. What’s even more surprising is nobody has even said anything about that challenge.
That isn’t to say I FoS’d him just to get you guys to pay attention. I genuinely do think it is suspicious that a “vet” would pursue these weird lynches and FoS. Logistical posts are neutraltells (WHY WONT YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS?) as are offtopic stuff. That leaves just what I perceive to be a real subtle case of active lurking. I’ll watch how it continues to play out and I suggest the rest of town do the same.
Here is an argument against redtooth's FoS. Both the original accusation and this defense there is nothing too solid. It almost seems as if they were making them up completely and trying to twist things and take them out of context.
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 05 2011 16:01 chaoser wrote:
Is there a possiblilty that Bin Laden isn't dead? Yes
Is there a possiblilty that the US didn't actually go to the Moon? Yes
While those are extreme analogies to your questions, the logical fallacy behind them are the same. While there is a CHANCE that it is possible, there is a BIGGER and more well supported CHANCE that Irish's scummy actions are just that...scummy actions. Your defense is essentially a roundabout stretch. Instead of thinking about it in a straight forward manner (Scummy actions=scummy player), you put forward this more complicated explanation:
"It's not that he's acting scummy cause he's scummy. It's cause he's inactive and disinterested in the game."
Aren't you basically making excuses for players acting scummy?
You say we should not waste time on this. So how would we go about catching scum and not "wasting massive amounts of time"? You've yet to put forward anything to focus on (Saying you FoS me but that we shouldn't vote me just yet)
Let's be truthful here, this post was motivated by a desire to discredit me and paint me in a negative light, not because you ACTUALLY think the case against Irish is weak. You first thought, hmm, I don't like Chaoser's posting and then added on this weak argument on Irish to try to give it legitimacy. If we were to use your logic, we could hand wave anyone's actions as "not interested so he made a shitty argument that was not only based upon false premises, but then immediately started a bandwagon." and no mafia would ever be caught.
In regards to active lurking, do you understand what the concept of lurking even means? It means giving useless information and not actually taking a stance on anything. I've taken multiple stances, called people out, tried to promote inactivity amongst the vets, and put pressure on many people. I've helped create a pro-town environment. What have you done? Nothing.
Sinani's "analysis" post is the most contradictory post I've ever seen. He says he's suspicious of AO but gives no reasons why and then votes Kurumi. When I catch him on it, he says that he forgot and then says Kurumi has been analytical and doesn't give up. I've been analytical and aggressive (both, by the way, which are generally POSITIVE), why didn't he vote me? Even if he's not reading the thread with much detail, to say he's voting for someone due to them CONTRIBUTING TO THE CONVERSATION WITH ANALYSIS is ridiculous. To try to say a complete logically fallicy is due to inactivity is just WRONG in so many ways.
Either way, I neither said I was definitely sure sinani was mafia nor did I say that I had found half of the mafia team. I made a LIST of those that I found suspicious. The people on that list will continue to be evaluated and either be kept on or taken off as events arise. My attention has been very focused (Irish) and the rest are me responding to things people say, as they say them. Should I only respond to issues regarding Irish and after that's resolved, to start noticing other things? No. Your argument to try to defend Irish is weak and your true motive to discredit me is seen. I completely support your stance that people should approach me more warily though but I disagree with the way you have gone about doing it (weak argument, convoluted logic).
I still support the Irish lynch though I see a lot of people are for the Kurumi lynch. Either way, they are tied to each other via the chainsaw defense into vote switch of support that if one flips red, the other is sure to flip red. At this point I am 70% sure Irish is red.
So, redtooth and chaoser have shown a definite connection between each other, and have tried to deny it, even after chaoser mentioned that he wasn't afraid to be connected to other players.
Cthsazsa is suspicious, definitely, but I feel like he is more of a new player than a scummy player. Nothing he has posted has really screamed 'I am scum' to me. Let's keep an eye on him, and perhaps get a DT check on him.
I was talking to Irish on UG, and he said he forgot the password to his TL account. Chances are he will be modkilled.
I can't promise to be any more active from now on than I have been already, but I will try to pop in to do some analysis whenever I get the chance.
As for chaoser being roleblocked/medic protected - what is to stop scum from blocking him every night and hitting other targets, and being sure of medic-free kills every night? They can stop a DT check and get 2 kills every single night.
I would like to propose a ridiculous theory, please tell me if it's possible and/or complete garbage.
chaoser is scum. He knows the roles of his scumbuddies, and decides to announce DT and that he checked Amber last night, seeing that there was already a good number of votes for that player. Further, he gets his scum team to switch votes from Cthsazsa to Amber, and then declares that there must be a good number of scum hiding in the Cthsazsa votes. Even better, he is guaranteed that medics will waste themselves on protecting him every night, and he can claim roleblock and not be worried about not providing results for further days, and he can also rest comfortably knowing that if someone tries to accuse him of being scum, he can turn it on them and blame them for trying to accuse a DT.
This is something of a ridiculous conspiracy theory feel to it to me, but I felt it should be put out there anyway.
On May 04 2011 12:59 ilovejonn wrote:
Apparently redtooth thinks Irish slipped cause he thought he knows 3-4 ppl playing in this game as ppl on his scum team. Just a misunderstood post imo.
On May 04 2011 12:53 KillerSOS wrote:
He just wants the pleasure of voting first!
On May 04 2011 13:08 Cthsazsa wrote:
This is very interesting.
Maybe Redtooth is using that as an excuse to get people riled up?
And myself of course:
On May 04 2011 12:50 chaos13 wrote:
chaoser, did you not even listen to what I told you? He knows 3 or 4 of us from another forum. Trust me, he isn't stupid, and would not make a mistake like that.
On May 04 2011 11:41 chaos13 wrote:
I fail to see how that is a scum tell. He doesn't mean knows the role of 3-4 players, he means that he is new to the TLMafia forums, as am I, and we know each other, as well as Coagulation and Jackal58, from another site.
On May 09 2011 03:40 Varpulis wrote:
@chaoser I'm not 100% on Amber[LighT]. He's had some bad, pseudo-content posts, but he's also made some good ones that seem genuinely town friendly. I'll keep my eye on him, but I'm not convinced that he's scum. Perfect target for a dt check, I'd say.
This is a genuine defense of someone that he is unsure of. He even suggest a DT check. Not a scummy defense of another player.
On May 09 2011 04:04 Forumite wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2011 03:56 chaoser wrote:
@Forumite, if amber is blue, he's playing the worst blue ever. He's been consciously trying to fake contribute. Blues don't do that.
Reread his attack on Sandroba, it was very weak. If he´s blue, then he can save himself by claiming, so fine, he´s a valid target for now.
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On May 09 2011 04:00 sandroba wrote:
Another point on why Amber[Light] is scum:
He has posted a list of the "important" post of each player that died at night.
First of all this is a non-contribution, because it does not states the reason why those are important.
Second, If you are town How The Hell would you know which posts are really important? The post are presented on a non chronological fashion, and it only makes sense for you to post them in such manner, without stating reason, if you are scum trying to point town in the wrong direction.
This is a very weak accusation. Picking out posts is not a scumtell, unless he actively choose posts which give a certain message, like pointing fingers against a certain player. Did you find something like that?
Forumite, on the other hand, is aggressively defending his scumbuddy. He does so without good analysis to back up his views, and even attempts to attack sandroba's efforts against Amber. Not only this, but he suggests a blue claim on Day 2. The only reason they should ever do this is if they have information that will lead to a scum lynch, like chaoser did.
To further this, look back at his posts on the previous page. There is a whole lot of nothing going on there, and most of it due to Forumite. He is making comments and asking questions that really don't further the game any farther, and consist of information that can easily be found within a few clicks.
On May 10 2011 16:53 DropBear wrote:
K I just looked through my own posts in this game.
PEOPLE I'VE ACCUSED
Oh dear lol. That's a lot of people. Alright I'm going to shut up now.
*Note - in color I included EternalMisfit as red, and cthazsa and redtooth as green because we can rest relatively assured that they are scum and town respectively.
Even without those few assumptions made, this list - made by DropBear himself - is quite incriminating. I believe EternalMisfit and DropBear are perfect candidates for looking into some more.