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the possibility of mafia trying to twist potential circles out to be a bad thing is a possible play and one that makes a lot of sense.
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[QUOTE]On October 30 2010 11:07 Pandain wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 30 2010 10:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:shit i forgot to add this part to my above post Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 10:51 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:44 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I need to backtrace and find out who invented the lie that I said anything about secret town circles, operating in pm's, or anything like that.
Not trying to FoS Pandain here but that sounds very mafia implanted to me. On October 30 2010 09:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 09:40 Hyperbola wrote:
It's really pointless for me to vote for myself at this point so I guess I'll vote for Pandain. The other two prime candidates are all discussing secret societies and whatnot, and even though I'm all for those types of roles, I believe the mayor should really be a figurehead for the whole town.
1. It would be really difficult, and not to mention disadvantageous, for the mayor to prove they are a free mason or something along those lines
2. The mayor keeps the rest of the town out of the loop (because there wouldn't be a way to transfer secret data) and therefore causes confusion which can lead to unwarranted bandwagoning.
3. If the mayor dies, how will the circle prove itself to town afterward? After losing all leadership, the town will flop and scum will have it's way with the remains.
And as for Pandain, I have seen his play style from the previous game and think he would make a good mayor. If he turns out to be mafia, and unless he has flawlessly acted out the role, people would notice and he'd be gone in a blink of an eye. well none of those apply for me so why vote for pandain who offers nothing at all? I'm guessing by other two prime candidates he means me and fishball in which case he is lying, because I never brought up secret societies except in relation to fishballs role. So his Second point here is incorrect. Now this misinformation is being parroted by Pandain. And its this kind of over reaction that we do not need from a mayor. Personally, if you've never played as town I don't know how good you will be if you are one. However, if you are mafia, then I know just how super amazingly funktastic you can be. So either way I don't like it. So it's an over reaction to point out that a player is saying something is false? OK Its an overreaction if you haven't read it clearly enough to understand it. You could correct me instead of saying something so vague. He is saying he is voting for you instead of the other two prime candidates which I take to refer to myself and fishball. If that is indeed the case, my point still stands. I'm not talking about that, sorry if I was unclear. I'm reffering to the fact you seemed to place a special emphasis on masons, but again, I think we're really of the same opinion here. As for the supposed bandwagon....I feel they gave sufficient reasons to warrant an early vote(and its a changeable vote). Afraid of fishball's circle having mafia, saying I'm apparently very transparent, and so forth.
reformat this please 
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
It's kinda amazing that Fishball, the only player to reveal any real information, is being brushed off as "secret society non transparency."
I think if one were to really want to hide information, he probably wouldn't have revealed the presence of a circle either.
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On October 30 2010 10:54 NB wrote:
while obama Dr.h and Mc.cain panda are debating.... fishy hillary is standing out and watch :>
What the fuck? Hillary?
I'm
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:09 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 10:54 NB wrote:
while obama Dr.h and Mc.cain panda are debating.... fishy hillary is standing out and watch :> What the fuck? Hillary?
That's a pretty serious insult. You might have your lynch target. :p
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On October 30 2010 11:06 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 10:50 Pandain wrote:
but I'm saying we should put an emphasis on debate in the forums rather than in a "divine secret council of pmers".
I know it's not directed at me, but I'm just quoting your post since you're the latest one to say something similar. Seems like a lot of people are getting this impression of the circle, which I've explained quite a few times, that's not exactly what I will make it to be. With DT checks viable to the Mayor, I even offered to kill myself and release as much information to the public to prove it. (Seeing that many other information have sunk into the vast ocean of posts, this is not surprising) It's also quite amusing, most of the people that argue against the "crazy secrecy of the circle", or just me in general "not being transparent" etc., never brings up these posts I've said. Keep in mind I was the first one to come up with such a claim. Fake or not, that's not the point and is for another debate, but I AM being transparent here.
Here's what you said:
On October 30 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:
If town wants to play it safe, a quick alternate scenario I can think of is to let me roll and try to gather as much information as I can for a few cycles. I then may or may not announce the remaining members, and release whatever information I can (depending on situation), and have myself lynched to prove my role and alignment.
While that's great, we don't know the specifics of "a few cycles." We also don't know how much we can afford to even have this secret circle run for 2-3 rounds if it's being manipulated by:
A. an experienced player like yourself
B. One with a massive amount of starting information if you were mafia
AND
C. A mafia member.
Also, I don't trust this in the future crap. If things happen like they did in either Mafia XXXI or Haunted Mafia, town quickly forgets about current accusations and bandwagons a lot >_<. Therefore, you could simply being saying this without the intention of doing it at all knowing that mafia will soon wreak havoc (especially if you were mafia and got into the mayor position and are in the secret circle).
Finally, we don't know whether or not you would release ALL the information. In fact, there's no way of knowing that. You could maybe release 1/2 your pms, or 1/3 of your pms and we wouldn't be able to tell.
I don't even trust that ploy despite you trying to be a martyr to curb our suspicions of you. =/
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AH WTF I EDITED
omgomgomgomg :
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On October 30 2010 11:09 orgolove wrote:
It's kinda amazing that Fishball, the only player to reveal any real information, is being brushed off as "secret society non transparency."
I think if one were to really want to hide information, he probably wouldn't have revealed the presence of a circle either.
Pandains campaign seems to be a little bit more about what is wrong with other candidates than what is right about him, which is something I don't like.
Now I'm becoming a little bit suspicious of a mafia attempt to discredit the idea of the circle in and of itself.
As far as Fishball himself, I don't feel hugely uncomfortable with him in a mayoral position. I think the fact that I can immediately confirm myself as town aligned and immediately coordinate blues without the possibility of manipulation in that department makes me a better candidate, but that can be debated on its own terms.
Being able to work in a circle is very useful, but open coordination is far more difficult for mafia to manipulate. Consider this as well. Even if only 1 mafia is in the group, all the mafia are involved in what is being said and disseminated throughout the group as that 1 mafia will surely be giving all town circle information to the entire mafia.
So it's a circle of communication between what is likely predominantly town players and 1 or 2 mafia but it is a circle of information that includes the entire mafia. That can really be abused to manipulate the towns trust in the mayor.
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then again, you can compare it with when dr. h quoted me. So no differences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Consider this an official warning. You know you're not allowed to, though I realize it was an honest mistake and just for formatting. Next time I will have to modkill though.
Also, it'd be great if we could get a few more people on the replacement list. If you're following the game and want to be on it, please PM me.
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I want to make it clear that I'm not wholly against the Circle. I'm just against electing a circle member to the position of Mayor. I still like that we do indeed have a circle that can be made into a "town circle" with some weeding out. I just don't like the possibilities of having a circle member be elected to Mayor.
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Mayor gets extra vote (meh) + protection (neat). And a kill on day 1 (eh). So strong blue role should be mayor right, and Dr. H. is the strongest I've seen posted.
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On October 30 2010 11:07 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 10:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:shit i forgot to add this part to my above post On October 30 2010 10:51 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:44 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I need to backtrace and find out who invented the lie that I said anything about secret town circles, operating in pm's, or anything like that.
Not trying to FoS Pandain here but that sounds very mafia implanted to me. On October 30 2010 09:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 09:40 Hyperbola wrote:
It's really pointless for me to vote for myself at this point so I guess I'll vote for Pandain. The other two prime candidates are all discussing secret societies and whatnot, and even though I'm all for those types of roles, I believe the mayor should really be a figurehead for the whole town.
1. It would be really difficult, and not to mention disadvantageous, for the mayor to prove they are a free mason or something along those lines
2. The mayor keeps the rest of the town out of the loop (because there wouldn't be a way to transfer secret data) and therefore causes confusion which can lead to unwarranted bandwagoning.
3. If the mayor dies, how will the circle prove itself to town afterward? After losing all leadership, the town will flop and scum will have it's way with the remains.
And as for Pandain, I have seen his play style from the previous game and think he would make a good mayor. If he turns out to be mafia, and unless he has flawlessly acted out the role, people would notice and he'd be gone in a blink of an eye. well none of those apply for me so why vote for pandain who offers nothing at all? I'm guessing by other two prime candidates he means me and fishball in which case he is lying, because I never brought up secret societies except in relation to fishballs role. So his Second point here is incorrect. Now this misinformation is being parroted by Pandain. And its this kind of over reaction that we do not need from a mayor. Personally, if you've never played as town I don't know how good you will be if you are one. However, if you are mafia, then I know just how super amazingly funktastic you can be. So either way I don't like it. So it's an over reaction to point out that a player is saying something is false? OK Its an overreaction if you haven't read it clearly enough to understand it. You could correct me instead of saying something so vague. He is saying he is voting for you instead of the other two prime candidates which I take to refer to myself and fishball. If that is indeed the case, my point still stands. I'm not talking about that, sorry if I was unclear. I'm reffering to the fact you seemed to place a special emphasis on masons, but again, I think we're really of the same opinion here. As for the supposed bandwagon....I feel they gave sufficient reasons to warrant an early vote(and its a changeable vote). Afraid of fishball's circle having mafia, saying I'm apparently very transparent, and so forth. Alright, more posts. Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:06 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 10:50 Pandain wrote:
but I'm saying we should put an emphasis on debate in the forums rather than in a "divine secret council of pmers".
I know it's not directed at me, but I'm just quoting your post since you're the latest one to say something similar. Seems like a lot of people are getting this impression of the circle, which I've explained quite a few times, that's not exactly what I will make it to be. With DT checks viable to the Mayor, I even offered to kill myself and release as much information to the public to prove it. (Seeing that many other information have sunk into the vast ocean of posts, this is not surprising) It's also quite amusing, most of the people that argue against the "crazy secrecy of the circle", or just me in general "not being transparent" etc., never brings up these posts I've said. Keep in mind I was the first one to come up with such a claim. Fake or not, that's not the point and is for another debate, but I AM being transparent here. Here's the thing, I don't see why you have to be mayor for this circle if you have medic protection. I've already said I think the circle is a very good thing to have and we should use it to our advantage, but focusing around that will be very hard since there's a chance there might not be any mafia at all! What, are we going to check all 6 people? That's going to take way too long. I'm just confused about how you would go about that, if you could clarify. Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 11:01 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:50 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:43 Pandain wrote:On October 30 2010 10:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 10:33 Pandain wrote:
*sigh*
Pandain:
1. I can prove I'm legit if elected.
2.I'm apparently very transparent
3.Relies on open discussion and debate.
Dr. H:
1.Can prove he's legit if elected
2.Is not transparent, is a master mafioso and a mayer Dr. H I would fear above all
3. Relies on secret pm circles which can easily be infiltrated. Same problem goes with Fishball, they would spend days trying to find mafia which might not even exist.
DTS should check mayoral canidates, most likely to find a mafia(at least one mafia must've run, else they're just handing us the game on a platter.)
Since so many people claimed valuable roles while running for election, those people must be at the top of the priority list for medic protection. And as of now, Fishball's "circle" hasn't said anything, so I'm beginning to become highly suscipcious of Fishball.
Again, if you are in Fishball's circle, say so now. You don't have to say your role or anything, just say if you are. If no one does, I am going to lynch Fishball day 1. I can't PM people, your 3rd point is complete bullshit. Just thought I'd point out that the difference between me and fishball is that my coordination will take place out in the open of the thread with complete transparency in every way. I am not part of a circle. Before you said you could maybe indirectly prove you're legit if you're elected. Now you can prove it 100% reliably? Which is it? My whole campaign is about an open discussion and coordination. I'm not acting behind doors but at the same time I'm not vote on whatever the public tells me, mafia control bandwagons and going with the majority every time is poor mayor play. Do you plan on doing the same? Do you have the balls to say the town is wrong on a lynch when it's your head on the chopping block? What you asked all masons to contact you, not only would that lead to some masons unable to pm other people, but does rely on secret circles. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but really it seems to me relying more on open debate is better, no? Only real purpose pms would be for is if finding out results from other blues. Well, it doesn't neccesarily mean I'm innocent, but if I'm wrong(very likely chance I would be if a fake), then you guys can lynch me ASAP. And yes, obviously I'm not just a mascot for the town, I'm a leader as well. When I have an opinion, I will back it up in debate. I will share my opinion, and if other people bring up good points I will back down if I feel they have a good defense. Okay there are a lot of things wrong with this role. 1. Fishballs circle is not one afaik that can convert. 2. Bumatlarge seems to have the power to give people the power to PM. it is possible he is in fishballs circle and this is his role related to the circle or that over the course of the game he can make a circle of his own. 3. My coordination of the town roles will be done in the open, as that is the best way for my role to do it as I can not reliably rely on becoming part of the town circle. Are you saying that the person who is elected mayor should not be converted into the town circle if such a thing exists? PMs would be useful later in the game for establishing contact with blue roles like DT who may not feel comfortable roleclaiming in public and the ideal voice for them is the mayor, who is immune to night kills. I do not feel comfortable with the idea of the mayor operating entirely in the circle, however I am comfortable with the idea of mayor becoming part of the circle early or later on in the game. Does that make sense? The only way I can reliably coordinate is in the open, which is best for the town. Conversely the town could also benefit from having me in the circle as well but this is far from "operating solely in secret" as you would like to imply. I think we're being antagnostic just because of the election. I can tell we actually have the same view. I do feel pms can be useful, especially once dt's start checking everyone, but I'm saying we should put an emphasis on debate in the forums rather than in a "divine secret council of pmers". Unless of course they have a dt. But I think we actually both agree on that. I never implied you were operating soley in secret. I never was talking about Fishball, was talking about masons. I never said the person should not be turned into the town circle. I agree. I know you never said the person should not be turned into the circle, that's why I asked you the question, Pandain. Because I wanted to know your stance. Why so defensive there? You never implied I was operating solely in secret? You can't bury your very obvious statements Pandain, no matter how bad you want to diffuse this argument. On October 30 2010 10:33 Pandain wrote:
*sigh*
Pandain:
1. I can prove I'm legit if elected.
2.I'm apparently very transparent
3.Relies on open discussion and debate.
Dr. H:
1.Can prove he's legit if elected
2.Is not transparent, is a master mafioso and a mayer Dr. H I would fear above all
3. Relies on secret pm circles which can easily be infiltrated. Same problem goes with Fishball, they would spend days trying to find mafia which might not even exist.
DTS should check mayoral canidates, most likely to find a mafia(at least one mafia must've run, else they're just handing us the game on a platter.)
Since so many people claimed valuable roles while running for election, those people must be at the top of the priority list for medic protection. And as of now, Fishball's "circle" hasn't said anything, so I'm beginning to become highly suscipcious of Fishball.
Again, if you are in Fishball's circle, say so now. You don't have to say your role or anything, just say if you are. If no one does, I am going to lynch Fishball day 1. What I highlighted is the bullshit part where you are implying I will do exactly that. Do you retract that statement? It seems pretty obvious what it is implying. Or did you somehow mean the opposite of what you said? Again, you are pulling a rabbit out of a hat when there simply was no rabbit to begin with. I never said you were SOLEY operating in secret, I was under the impression you would rely upon masons and pms with them. Obviously I have stated we are apparently under the same stance. Besides that, and even still we disagree a little, I do not retract my statement. Do you? And what question? I'll happily answer any question. You did not say I was solely operating in secret. But I still don't like the fact that you tried to lump me in with Fishball in the "secret society non transperancy" boat when I never said/did anything to put myself in that boat in the first place. I've said several times throughout the thread that I would do my coordination in the open, maybe you skimmed over what I said? If you don't even know my platform, don't call me out on non existent problems with it please. So, no I don't retract my statement. The question I asked you was "do you think it is a bad idea for mayor to be converted into the circle" you then answered it by playing it off as though I had accused you of saying it was a bad idea, when I did no such thing. So even though there is no basis for the idea that I will operate in secret and be non-transparent, you refuse to retract the statement that I will operate in secret and be non-transparent. Interesting pandain, very interesting. Show nested quote +Besides that, and even still we disagree a little, I do not retract my statement. I have in that one regard. And let's see what I said "Relies on secret pm circles which can easily be infiltrated". Not "IS GOING TO BE GOING OFF OF ONLY SECRET CIRLCES" but that you seem to place an emphasis on that. Do you doubt that a pm circle which grows each night has a growing chance each night of mafia inflitration? Then what use is the circle at all! I noted you and fishball have a similar problem, but the problem/situation itself is different. If you look, I have answered pretty much every single thing you keep asking. I've already said mayors should obviously be involved in town circles, I'm saying we should not RELY on them. Ver backs me up on this too, go read his town guide. The more you keep trying to pick at straws the more scummy you seem to me, if not others. If you are townie, be careful if you continue to attempt to continue attacking me, it will hurt your campaign.
I'm not picking at straws here. Saying I rely on secret circles is a pretty bold statement and it's one that has fallen apart but you refuse to retract. You also refuse to retract the statement that I'm not transparent.
My plan has nothing to do with circles and it never did. My plan is about using my role to coordinate in the open. I never placed an emphasis on it and I only made a single offhand comment that it may be beneficial to recruit me into said circle.
You also just said it could be very useful for the mayor to be in such a circle and now you say "what use is the circle at all!"
your arguments are wildly inconsistent.
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On October 30 2010 09:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
My role has two basic abilities:
-to confirm itself to another player at night. basically I can send a signal to another player once per night that confirms I am the role I say I am.
-to assist in stopping the spread of the plague. i will use this role to reliably coordinate the night actions of plague doctors and the results will show in the murrayitis counts.
Both of these actions can be proven, they have results that cannot be faked.
Secondly, (more like the hundred time I've said this and people don't listen)
So whats the name of your role, i'm curious
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And the debates continue! 
Politics, I dislike it
Just some general points I'd like to make:
To DrH: If you are mafia and your role is similar to what you say it is, it could just be instead of you being able to "confirm your role as a townie" to other people it could be "fake your role as a townie" to other people. You don't need to out other mafias to do that.
I am just highly skeptical of voting for someone because of their supposed role.
To fishball: Get someone from your circle to confirm that your circle really exist, or in fact, tell all of them to come out(not their role just the fact that they are in the circle) if at all possible.
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Me:
I've already said mayors should obviously be involved in town circles
Dr: H
You also just said it could be very useful for the mayor to be in such a circle and now you say "what use is the circle at all!"
Dr: H(previous)
You never implied I was operating solely in secret? You can't bury your very obvious statements Pandain, no matter how bad you want to diffuse this argument.
Dr. H(after)
You did not say I was solely operating in secret
I want DTS checking Dr. H, at the very least if he's mafia it will force them to elect him godfather(which would probably be the best move anyway)
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On October 30 2010 11:23 Glasse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
My role has two basic abilities:
-to confirm itself to another player at night. basically I can send a signal to another player once per night that confirms I am the role I say I am.
-to assist in stopping the spread of the plague. i will use this role to reliably coordinate the night actions of plague doctors and the results will show in the murrayitis counts.
Both of these actions can be proven, they have results that cannot be faked.
Secondly, (more like the hundred time I've said this and people don't listen)
So whats the name of your role, i'm curious
Does it matter?
It seems strange that you would want to know. I guess it would do no harm to tell, it wouldn't reveal the exact nature of my powers, which I won't go into extreme detail on just yet.
I'm not sure I should say. Maybe there is a role that knows all the roles in the game? And you're trying to confirm I am who I say I am?
Maybe this is some kinda weird mafia fishing attempt?
I'll think about it.
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On October 30 2010 11:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:23 Glasse wrote:On October 30 2010 09:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
My role has two basic abilities:
-to confirm itself to another player at night. basically I can send a signal to another player once per night that confirms I am the role I say I am.
-to assist in stopping the spread of the plague. i will use this role to reliably coordinate the night actions of plague doctors and the results will show in the murrayitis counts.
Both of these actions can be proven, they have results that cannot be faked.
Secondly, (more like the hundred time I've said this and people don't listen)
So whats the name of your role, i'm curious Does it matter? It seems strange that you would want to know. I guess it would do no harm to tell, it wouldn't reveal the exact nature of my powers, which I won't go into extreme detail on just yet. I'm not sure I should say. Maybe there is a role that knows all the roles in the game? And you're trying to confirm I am who I say I am? Maybe this is some kinda weird mafia fishing attempt? I'll think about it.
Sounds more like you just made shit up and can't think of a name that fits the description you gave.
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forgot to add something : you said what you could do anyway, why would the name matter?
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On October 30 2010 11:14 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 11:06 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 10:50 Pandain wrote:
but I'm saying we should put an emphasis on debate in the forums rather than in a "divine secret council of pmers".
I know it's not directed at me, but I'm just quoting your post since you're the latest one to say something similar. Seems like a lot of people are getting this impression of the circle, which I've explained quite a few times, that's not exactly what I will make it to be. With DT checks viable to the Mayor, I even offered to kill myself and release as much information to the public to prove it. (Seeing that many other information have sunk into the vast ocean of posts, this is not surprising) It's also quite amusing, most of the people that argue against the "crazy secrecy of the circle", or just me in general "not being transparent" etc., never brings up these posts I've said. Keep in mind I was the first one to come up with such a claim. Fake or not, that's not the point and is for another debate, but I AM being transparent here. Here's what you said: Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:
If town wants to play it safe, a quick alternate scenario I can think of is to let me roll and try to gather as much information as I can for a few cycles. I then may or may not announce the remaining members, and release whatever information I can (depending on situation), and have myself lynched to prove my role and alignment. While that's great, we don't know the specifics of "a few cycles." We also don't know how much we can afford to even have this secret circle run for 2-3 rounds if it's being manipulated by: A. an experienced player like yourself B. One with a massive amount of starting information if you were mafia AND C. A mafia member. Also, I don't trust this in the future crap. If things happen like they did in either Mafia XXXI or Haunted Mafia, town quickly forgets about current accusations and bandwagons a lot >_<. Therefore, you could simply being saying this without the intention of doing it at all knowing that mafia will soon wreak havoc (especially if you were mafia and got into the mayor position and are in the secret circle). Finally, we don't know whether or not you would release ALL the information. In fact, there's no way of knowing that. You could maybe release 1/2 your pms, or 1/3 of your pms and we wouldn't be able to tell. I don't even trust that ploy despite you trying to be a martyr to curb our suspicions of you. =/
This is the type of response I appreciate.
Nothing is set. Basically what I'm trying to say is, I don't know how the game would progress. Few cycles, could be as few as one, as much as the entire duration of the game. It's not my call, but the Towns to decide if they need to kill me or not and when to kill me. This is not martyrdom, but as one of the few ways, as a last resort to prove myself and the information I provide, if necessary.
Yes, town has a tendency to be confused and be distracted based on previous games, but since you brought this up, you can very well keep this on your top priority list and constantly remind the town of this option.
As for releasing information, I specially never used the term "all information". You can check my posts in this thread. Let's assume a scenario. We have a confirmed DT/Medic or the sort in the group. I'm about to get lynched to prove my other claims, whatever it may be. Would it be wise to release who in the group has what role to the public now? The answer is most likely no. It really depends on the situation at that time, and this would be my judgment call. But why does this matters anyways? If I only released half of the information I've got, died and was revealed as a Townie, then my motives can only be good.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://siberianlight.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/putin-man-boobs-fishing.jpg)
